3 new cmans

[Gibreficul]

OK, so Simu gave rogues 3 new cmans... let me be the first to say it....

FUCK YOU SIMU. I ain't buying it. It's all smoke and mirrors.

According to the rogue write-up on the play.net page, rogues are still supposed to be 2nd most adept at wearing heavy armor. Unfortunately, since the cman list, armor specializations, and paladins, all they've been doing is penalizing rogues for wearing heavier armors. I say fuck that... It's bullshit on Simu's part. It's a total cop out.

First, predator's eye seems pretty nice, but without testing, I can't really be sure it's worth it. You're still gunna miss your mark, even with a percent chance increase to not. We see how often that 1% fumble happens.

Next, slippery mind. By my numbers, double leathers are +12 CvA. Full plate is -21 CvA. That's a difference of 33 pseudo TD, and at rank 3, in double leathers there's a 21% chance to outright avoid a CS based spell... Sorry, that's feeding a load of shit to those of you who can't do simple math. I'll take 33 TD all day over a 21% chance to "evade" a CS spell, because that 79% of the time you don't dodge it, you're fucking boned.

Then there's duck and weave. Great thought, terrible implementation. You're going to give rogues a cman whose success is partially based on a skill that training costs dictate they shouldn't really train in, that being MoC. Then you're going to reward them for being in an offensive stance, and light armor. Talk about a sitting duck.

So, maybe I'm crazy, but this is just a fucking crock of shit being handed to rogues, AGAIN. If Simu's intent for rogues has changed, update the web site... don't tell me in the "beginner's guide" that they're 2nd most adept at wearing heavier armor, then give them all sorts of things that are penalized by wearing those heavier armors. Not to mention the inability to 3x PF, and all the other things I've mentioned. Sure, I'm kinda happy to see some development, but if it's going to be like this, I may as well just wear my cup from my ice hockey days 24/7, cause I don't know if I can take another kick to the nuts like this.

OK, rant over... discuss.

:club:

[thefarmer]

OK, so Simu gave rogues 3 new cmans... let me be the first to say it....

FUCK YOU SIMU. I ain't buying it. It's all smoke and mirrors.


Try posting this on the officials and see their response

[Gibreficul]

Try posting this on the officials and see their response

They won't respond... they'll pull the post ASAP, and we all know it... Simu doesn't take criticism well.

[thefarmer]

They won't respond... they'll pull the post ASAP, and we all know it... Simu doesn't take criticism well.

Nah, I meant clean it up and post it.

Trust me, I know how they handle they police their forums.

[DaCapn]

First, it's worth mentioning that any time a new option is provided, it is not a penalty. You may take the option or leave it. No other aspects of the game have been adjusted to account for these new maneuvers. No one in the game will see a decrease in their performance as a result of this development (unless they the player decide to make their builds worse).

Second, when Oscuro took over as rogue guru he stated that the intention is to have rogues in lighter armors (someone tell that to bandits, my last two tasks they were ALL in chain or MBP). The route he took was through incentives (definitely the right move). Evade mastery was an example. The armor specializations factored in as well. You expect the website to be updated? That would be a joke, right?

That's just a reaction to your knee-jerk. Content-wise, though. I'm basically with you.

Slippery mind isn't too bad. There's been requests for a TD booster to compensate for CvA progressions and to help with lighter armor for a long time. So... there it is.

Duck and weave bothers me. I also like the idea. I suggested basically this exact effect on the boards some 4 years ago. I really hate the expensive duration-based maneuver concept. At the surface it's just really annoying that I need a series of scripts just to keep my "passive" maneuvers/sigils up. If I wrote this maneuver it would be structured differently: keep the armor AP factor in, make it 100% passive, make triggers cost a little stamina or add 1 second to RT, make it stance independent. I suppose if I had my way, smastery would be two passive 0 stamina maneuvers as well: one for RT, one for a stealth roll bonus. The combined CM point cost of both could be greater that smastery.

Predator's eye: Kind of "meh" in my opinion. The coolest part was that Oscuro stated that it assisted with hurled weapons. Also, he gave some insights into the aiming formula which was nice.

Personally, I don't think there will ever be a more powerful light armor incentive for rogues than 410. To me, that is the deciding factor. "Recently" they've been adding these low AG bonus CMs which make me say "all the better." Slippery mind is just another one. There's no way I'd go light armor for the CMs alone, though.

[Mumblz]

+1 to OP

[Kitsun]

As far as Slippery Mind goes, if the TD warding margin is wide enough, then evading a connecting hit is more valuable than that boost. Personally, I'm going to be getting ranks in that even though I'm in plate.

If Duck and Weave auto-triggered at reduced Stamina cost if it detects more than X swings in a few seconds(indicating you're in a swarm and could probably use the help), it might be more useful. When you're neck deep in shit, hitting the WTF button would probably normally be to Vanish/hide, leave the room, ewave, not the let-me-stand-in-the-middle-of-you-fuckers-and-kill!

[DaCapn]

If Duck and Weave auto-triggered at reduced Stamina cost if it detects more than X swings in a few seconds(indicating you're in a swarm and could probably use the help), it might be more useful. When you're neck deep in shit, hitting the WTF button would probably normally be to Vanish/hide, leave the room, ewave, not the let-me-stand-in-the-middle-of-you-fuckers-and-kill!

It's duration-based. I imagine that the proposed use would be to CM WEAVE before starting an attack against a room full of creatures with the intention of clearing the room in 30 seconds or less.

The problem is, any maneuver of this nature (evasion/crowd control) will always be pitted against 410, especially with the light armor incentive aspect. 410 crushes duck and weave.

[Gibreficul]

First, it's worth mentioning that any time a new option is provided, it is not a penalty. You may take the option or leave it. No other aspects of the game have been adjusted to account for these new maneuvers. No one in the game will see a decrease in their performance as a result of this development (unless they the player decide to make their builds worse).

Moving to a lower sub group armor is going to make your character worse. As I said before, all these little things are just smoke and mirrors to distract us from the problems we've been having for some time now. The best example I can come up with is area webs. That lower sub group armor they're trying to trick us into wearing means lower overall spell defense even for those hidden rolls. There's still nothing a rogue can do once they're caught in a web, and hiding doesn't do shit for defending against them, or any other AE attack for that matter.


Second, when Oscuro took over as rogue guru he stated that the intention is to have rogues in lighter armors (someone tell that to bandits, my last two tasks they were ALL in chain or MBP). The route he took was through incentives (definitely the right move). Evade mastery was an example. The armor specializations factored in as well. You expect the website to be updated? That would be a joke, right?

All that and yet they still want to consider rogues squares. They can't even 3x PF. Now both a PURE and a SEMI have the option to 3x PF, and yet a rogue is still stuck at 2x. As the rogue guru, Oscuro sure is fucking up in my eyes. He's making the profession less survivable, not more. Seems more like a rogue terrorist to me. (Wasn't he responsible for implementing area webs? Correct me if I'm wrong)


That's just a reaction to your knee-jerk. Content-wise, though. I'm basically with you.

I speak the truth. I feel like they're tossing scraps to rogues while the other professions are eating filet mignon. I play other professions, I KNOW how good it can be.


Slippery mind isn't too bad. There's been requests for a TD booster to compensate for CvA progressions and to help with lighter armor for a long time. So... there it is.

At most, 27%, (if you wear robes) to avoid a CS spell... that still leaves 73% of the time you're going to get nuked. I'm unimpressed. Great idea, terrible implementation solely because of the penalty to that maneuver for heavier armor. I'd have preferred a straight up 4% regardless of armor type than this armor group tier shit.


Duck and weave bothers me. I also like the idea. I suggested basically this exact effect on the boards some 4 years ago. I really hate the expensive duration-based maneuver concept. At the surface it's just really annoying that I need a series of scripts just to keep my "passive" maneuvers/sigils up. If I wrote this maneuver it would be structured differently: keep the armor AP factor in, make it 100% passive, make triggers cost a little stamina or add 1 second to RT, make it stance independent. I suppose if I had my way, smastery would be two passive 0 stamina maneuvers as well: one for RT, one for a stealth roll bonus. The combined CM point cost of both could be greater that smastery.

Predator's eye: Kind of "meh" in my opinion. The coolest part was that Oscuro stated that it assisted with hurled weapons. Also, he gave some insights into the aiming formula which was nice.

First, predator's eye... I still think that's the best of the three new cmans, even though it seems pretty unnecessary. My rogue(s) don't miss much. I doubt I'll notice a few extra percent chance to hit my mark. Duck and weave just seems like a trap. Put on light armor, spend an assload of TPs on MOC ranks, and stand there in offensive stance... with your max 2x PF meaning sub-standard redux to boot.


Personally, I don't think there will ever be a more powerful light armor incentive for rogues than 410. To me, that is the deciding factor. "Recently" they've been adding these low AG bonus CMs which make me say "all the better." Slippery mind is just another one. There's no way I'd go light armor for the CMs alone, though.

In Prime, I have NO problems using 410 in full plate... via imbedding it between hunts. In Shattered, I maxed armor ranks so I can cast (with 23% hindrance at 202 ranks) in MBP. Basically, 410 isn't an "incentive" for me to wear light armor. It's a reason to get to spell 420 ASAP so I can get into heavier armor (as the game originally intended) and still use my one and only crowd control method.

In all seriousness though, and I mentioned it before... any development that gets rolled into the game, I do appreciate. At least in Shattered I can move my rogue forward on boxes alone, cause it's pretty obvious the GMs have no intention of helping to advance a rogue to be better hunters.... just better prey for the critters they attempt to hunt.

But hey, what do I know? Maybe they're force feeding us something we really should be gobbling up?

http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m684n0cNEe1qzya49o1_500.jpg

^^^ OSCURO ^^^^^^^ force feeding ^^^^^^^^ ROGUES ^^^

But surprise, it's NOT really rogue food.


Just one more thing... I'm speaking purly from a capped/post capped perspective. I can see a definite usefulness for these things at the lower levels. The option to stop training in armor in favor of other skills can really give you a boost to get through some of the rough patches of the game. I just feel like rogues are getting the shaft combat-wise because of their ability to gain exp from picking, which is a utility skill at best and something many rogues don't choose to do. Myself being a great example of how someone can abuse that utility doesn't make a lack of combat prowess relative to other professions an easier pill to swallow. Also, I feel like the the Voln changes/updates really can and will help rogues as much if not more than any other profession. that's a discussion for another thread though.

[JustDan]

While I agree with 95% of what Gib said, the fact remains that this was a monk release, geared towards that class and it's strengths and archetypes. I got excited when they decided to throw rogues a couple of options, but I don't think any of these CMans were built with rogues in mind. I think they just rolled us in at the end, to assist the rogues who prefer/decide to use lighter armors.

I feel like there are two distinct paths laid out... lighter armor and heavy armor. The many virtues of heavy armor have been extolled in this space (and by me personally) many times. It SEEMS like they're trying to make lighter armor a viable, appealing alternative. I don't see anything they did as detracting from a heavy armor build, they just didn't do anything to improve it.

I'd have loved something new to play with, especially in the TD department. None of the monkish changes, though, affect the way I play my rogue.

And since you brought it up........

Area webs are the bane of my existence. Lately it's the only reason I die in OTF, bar none. I frequently have to stand in a room with a web, killing everything that wanders in, until it shatters on it's own, or the motherfucker who cast it finally comes back to the scene of the crime. I'm working on acquiring some untrammel dust for those scenarios, but I still find myself webbed on occasion when running out of OTF. I modded ;go2 to come to a stop in a room with a web, but it doesn't trigger quickly enough most of the time. I'm thisclose to setting up something to use ;step2, or rerolling into a giantman or half-krolvin.... \rant

[DaCapn]

Area webs are the bane of my existence. Lately it's the only reason I die in OTF, bar none. I frequently have to stand in a room with a web, killing everything that wanders in, until it shatters on it's own, or the motherfucker who cast it finally comes back to the scene of the crime. I'm working on acquiring some untrammel dust for those scenarios, but I still find myself webbed on occasion when running out of OTF. I modded ;go2 to come to a stop in a room with a web, but it doesn't trigger quickly enough most of the time. I'm thisclose to setting up something to use ;step2, or rerolling into a giantman or half-krolvin.... \rant

I've carried untrammel dust ever since I had to warcamp to master GoS.

With regards to a modified go2, you might find group2 a good jump-off point. I basically copied step2 into it and defined it as a function (so I didn't have to load the script repeatedly) and made some criteria to watch for your group following you. Drop the group checks, insert the web checks.

[Gibreficul]

Area webs are the bane of my existence. Lately it's the only reason I die in OTF, bar none. I frequently have to stand in a room with a web, killing everything that wanders in, until it shatters on it's own, or the motherfucker who cast it finally comes back to the scene of the crime. I'm working on acquiring some untrammel dust for those scenarios, but I still find myself webbed on occasion when running out of OTF. I modded ;go2 to come to a stop in a room with a web, but it doesn't trigger quickly enough most of the time. I'm thisclose to setting up something to use ;step2, or rerolling into a giantman or half-krolvin.... \rant

Do you use spell 120? If not, that could be your best bet for anti-web defense. Find a ranger to imbue some rods, and a sorcerer to imbed them. Also, an alternative to untrammel dust could be to have waveable dispel imbeds made. (elemental and spiritual both work)

Why giant/krolvin? Do they have racial defense to webs? Also, doesn't attacking while in a room with an area web have the same chance to snare ya as trying to walk away?

ASIDE NOTE: Love the handful of neg reps I got... and if you were anywhere near intelligent, you'd see that I'm not crying, I'm just taking an extreme stance in order to better spark conversation here. A middle of the road opinion usually doesn't get much reaction or reply, so I had to go extreme.

[JustDan]

Do you use spell 120? If not, that could be your best bet for anti-web defense. Find a ranger to imbue some rods, and a sorcerer to imbed them. Also, an alternative to untrammel dust could be to have waveable dispel imbeds made. (elemental and spiritual both work)

Why giant/krolvin? Do they have racial defense to webs? Also, doesn't attacking while in a room with an area web have the same chance to snare ya as trying to walk away?

I do have / use 120, and it does help, but I'd say I get snared about 50% of the time when I attempt to walk away from / through an area web. The dispel idea, though, is interesting, and one I hadn't considered. I could easily yank off my armor, 417 the thing, then throw the armor back on. ~20seconds of RT in full defensive is much easier to survive than being webbed.

The giant/krolvin remark was a snarky comment referencing Scintillion's adamant stance that those two races would cure all ills.

And no, attacking, searching, and gathering arrows has never resulted in a snare from an area web (for me, at least). If it DOES cause entanglement, the roll must be far more skewed than movement.

[Gibreficul]

And no, attacking, searching, and gathering arrows has never resulted in a snare from an area web (for me, at least). If it DOES cause entanglement, the roll must be far more skewed than movement.

Ahhhh, so ranged attacks. I know for a fact melee attacks will trigger webs to ensnare ya.

[JustDan]

Ahhhh, so ranged attacks. I know for a fact melee attacks will trigger webs to ensnare ya.

Sweep and feint also seem to have no chance to ensnare (again, just from my recent experience). Odd (and more than a little buggy, it would seem) that melee attacks are vulnerable when the others are not.

[Anothi]

My rogue tends to do things spell-less. Call it a part of his character. It makes things incredibly difficult and god forbid there was a web on the ground. When I was playing, I was forced to step2 or sneak manually to my destination. If I missed the web while there was something in the room...I was pretty much screwed.