Cue TAPS for the Voln Fu Warrior

[Mohrgan]

And then there were fewer...

Viable training paths for warriors, that is. Looks like the Brawling warrior who made use of Voln Fu really is dead on arrival, as far as monks and the voln changes go. I'm really kind of surprised at how utterly impossible it is to use the UAC with a shield or even a two handed weapon is. I was expecting some penalities on the order of the way holding a shield dropped your MB a bit in the old system for KICK and PUNCH, but no, it really is just set up not to work at all. I can't even hit a rolton with a jab with a shield in my hand, and that's fully trained in brawling and shields at cap.

Bold decision, to completely do away with one of the most popular warrior training paths for the entire history of Gemstone. I really like the new Voln updates in general, but, yeah, this is pretty much curtains for any warrior who liked to use Voln Fu. Even with maxxed dodge or something, the penalties to your DS in plate, combined with the penalties to the UAC in plate...just no way to make it work that I can see, so yeah...a lot of FIXSKILLing in the warrior community in days to come, I should think.

It's kind of funny, really, how a warrior can learn how to use CMAN HAYMAKER just fine with one open hand, but can't figure out how to PUNCH something. Just another logical foible in the world of GS.

[SoupyPoopy]

I am not sure what to do, I was one of those Voln Fu warriors. I am at a loss of what to do, wearing full plate I could barely hit something 6 levels below me. Is there even a point to being a brawling warrior now?

[Mohrgan]

I don't think there is. I am holding off on using my FIXSKILL until I discuss it a bit further just in case there is something I'm missing, but yeah, it pretty well looks like the Fu Warrior is a thing of the past.

[Nattor]

What about just ditching the shield? Does your DS become too low at that point?

There is always the option of untraining all of your armor and using robes, but then you'd just be a monk anyway.

[Reliel]

You can't just Attack? I know the new system is fun and all but you can still swing normally last time I checked.

[Fallen]

You can't just Attack? I know the new system is fun and all but you can still swing normally last time I checked.

This makes no sense.

[Reliel]

This makes no sense.

Aside from Punch, Kick, Grapple, Jab. You can't just ATTACK normally? AS and all that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here.

[Gelston]

You can, yes.

[droit]

Aside from Punch, Kick, Grapple, Jab. You can't just ATTACK normally? AS and all that.

Unless I'm misunderstanding something here.

It's the loss of Voln Fu he's mourning.

[Reliel]

It's the loss of Voln Fu he's mourning.

Oh okay

[Back]

There are still Voln strikes. Never did the Voln Fu thing so I have no clue what the loss is. Though... Voln Fu has been a player created term from the beginning.

[Gelston]

Voln Fu was very OP. That is what is being missed. UCS sucks against Non Corporeal unless you use the new Voln stuff to make them corporeal, but smite is all jacked up and has a SHORT duration, like shorter than the RT it takes to do it duration.

[gs4-PauperSid]

Yeah, this Voln-fu ranger-archer is in agreement. I got wtf owned by wind wraiths and soul golems. I liked being diverse having more than one attack style, and barely resisted using up ye-ole-fix-skill last night.--slept on it. Though, I will be picking up over 1100 tps dropping brawling which I'll likely dump into cmans for maxing out shadow-mastery. Still lots of extra points after that tho. If i didnt do the cman route, I could go with spells, and have up to 650, and 129 (one rank til fog, without voln!) at 61 trainings.

Playing with the points, noticed they REALLY dont want rangers training in spell aim 5/15 tp's to single it...shame, because web-bolt and archery work well together, not to mention firespirit. But I digress.

RIP Voln Fu.

-J

Ps. Shame--Ole Chaparel nearly won a brawling contest up in icemule too---if not for bs-giant only 'features' in that bar (catching your fist, etc). Took second and won some spiffy mittens.

[Aluvius]

Voln Fu was very OP. That is what is being missed. UCS sucks against Non Corporeal unless you use the new Voln stuff to make them corporeal, but smite is all jacked up and has a SHORT duration, like shorter than the RT it takes to do it duration.

I think that's alot of it, the shock at an almost mechanically exploitative form of attack being replaced with one in line with other combat styles. Voln Fu gave people essentially a combo-breaker special attack against undead with minimal investment in tp's and no investment in equipment or even adjustment to their main combat style. All you had to do was perhaps sheath a weapon to use it.

It was the equivalent of using a bow with a shield. Now they can still use the bow but need to sling the shield.

I do have sympathy though, because its a big change and Voln-Fu was incredibly powerful. On the up side they now have a first rate society in general.

[Rallorick]

last night my voln fu ranger had to deal with encumbered RT for the first time. level 38 and I finally gave up on hitting a skeletal giant for 3 points a swing... I'm probably doing it wrong, because he's fully trained.

I was a big fan of voln fu, but I'm not giving up the brawling yet. I'm sure it'll have its own advantages.

[Gelston]

The biggest thing a lot of people aren't understanding is the tier system.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Unarmed_combat_system

That has a good information you should know.

[Bobmuhthol]

TIER THIS YOU BANANA EATING MOTHER FUCKER!

[Reliel]

The biggest thing a lot of people aren't understanding is the tier system.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Unarmed_combat_system

That has a good information you should know.
I think lots of people were thinking it was going to be a copy and paste of Voln Fu because frankly, I find the tier system easy as hell to understand.

[Asrial]

Voln Fu was very OP. That is what is being missed.Yes, but it's not that simple.

OP or not, the system was in place for over a decade and allowed people to kick undead while holding a shield/bow/runestaff and wearing heavy armor.

Many many MANY people trained in a way to take advantage of that secondary attack style.

[Warriorbird]

One of those logical things the GMs have done that simultaneously make a lot of people sad. I think you have to decide if, in this new world, you want to go Monk.

[Archigeek]

I think that's alot of it, the shock at an almost mechanically exploitative form of attack being replaced with one in line with other combat styles. Voln Fu gave people essentially a combo-breaker special attack against undead with minimal investment in tp's and no investment in equipment or even adjustment to their main combat style. All you had to do was perhaps sheath a weapon to use it.

It was the equivalent of using a bow with a shield. Now they can still use the bow but need to sling the shield.

I do have sympathy though, because its a big change and Voln-Fu was incredibly powerful. On the up side they now have a first rate society in general.

Most of that's not really true. Without significant brawling training, Voln Fu was pretty well worthless. Since when is training in a skill to at least 1x mechanically exploitive? You could say that throwing a punch while holding a THW is mechanically exploitive, but a punch while holding a shield? I don't think so. A punch is a one-fisted attack. Effectively not being able to throw a punch while holding an object in the other hand is silly. And throwing always required two free hands.

Voln Fu was moderately useful, and only overpowerd in a few very rare situations, such as against pures with zero brawling training.

As for being replaced with "one in line with other combat styles" tell me, which one? There is nothing else like the new system. I applaud them for developing it, I just think that anyone 2x trained in brawling and having a free hand ought to be able to throw a punch that's at least moderately effective. That's what people are missing. Very few people used Voln Fu as a regular hunting style. At best it was a supplement for most.

[Gelston]

It throws off your balance. Holding something in one hand while punching with another does that. Try it IRL. Your punch isn't as strong. It was OP on MANY occasions.

[Archigeek]

It throws off your balance. Holding something in one hand while punching with another does that. Try it IRL. Your punch isn't as strong. It was OP on MANY occasions.

You're right, lets start with the RL examples of how the game should work. Do we really need to run down that dead end? It was OP in only a few instances, and just as underpowered in others.

Case in point: Plane 5 of the rift. It was effective against some critters and not vs others. Anything with WOF up, it was almost impossible to kill them. If it was that overpowered, I would have used it more, which I didn't, even though I've been fully doubled in brawling since level 1. The big bonus of Voln Fu is that there were those circumstances where nothing much else would work, and sometimes during those occasions, voln fu was great... other times you'd end up with a 17 second RT.

I'll say again, if it was so overpowering, how come more people didn't use it? I do not know a single warrior who used it as their main hunting style. I'm sure there were a few out there, but they were outliers.

I think all anyone is asking for is to be able to get off a somewhat effective punch or kick while holding something in the off hand. This is not unreasonable.

[Androidpk]

Roll a monk then.

[Gelston]

Archigeek, I'll give you this. I think a buckler should have a smaller penalty as opposed to a tower shield. From the FLAVOR I get from the UCS though, it is more on line with how things are in RL. I know, most of GS isn't, but this is. And I am quite certain it is going to be tweaked and made more accessible. Being able to crit kill a Non Corporeal with Voln Fu is extremely OP IMO.

[Archigeek]

The trouble is the extreme. It's beyond penalty as it is. I can't kill a rolton with a jab with a shield in one hand. That's not a penalty, that's an imposibility. I'm not asking for viable everyday combat without going with two open hands. Voln fu never was, so I am not surprised that there's a penalty for not having two open hands. But not being able to kill something when "hunting" down 99 levels is a tad beyond penalty.

[Sean]

Kicking things with a shield was pretty viable. But yea I played around with this with my voln rogue and warrior and I didn't really enjoy it so odds are I'll be giving up on fu.

[Gelston]

Jab is the absolute weakest possible attack. The DFs for it are posted.

[Bobmuhthol]

Any capped character should be able to kill a rolton with any attack available to them. The fact that jab is the weakest choice for unarmed combat doesn't make it acceptable, because you're basically saying jab should never be used for anything, and we waited fucking years​ for this system to be released.

[Gelston]

Yes, a capped character should beable to kill a rolton with a rapier just because they have that attack available to them. Wait. no. Using ANY other attack would have killed that rolton. Jab is used for ONE reason, to raise your attack tier for another attack so you can slaughter. A tier 1 jab shouldn't be able to do much.

[Bobmuhthol]

Yes, a capped character should beable to kill a rolton with a rapier just because they have that attack available to them. Wait. no.

Yes, absolutely, every capped character should be able to kill a rolton with a rapier.

Your point sucks even more than I originally gave credit for because the capped character in question has 200+ brawling ranks.

[Gelston]

We'll have to disagree then.

[Archigeek]

I would think if they trained in the use of OHE, the answer would be quite clearly yes. Not trained in it sure, I'd say no dice.

[Gelston]

You can't really think about UCS as being ANYTHING like the other combat systems in GS It is a completely different beast. It has different rules and different methods of use. You need to chain attacks or make the correct attack at the right time. A tier 1 jab isn't meant to do anything other than to get you into tier 2.

[Archigeek]

You can't really think about UCS as being ANYTHING like the other combat systems in GS It is a completely different beast. It has different rules and different methods of use. You need to chain attacks or make the correct attack at the right time. A tier 1 jab isn't meant to do anything other than to get you into tier 2.

Which it won't do with any item in hand. Even down hunting 99 levels.

[droit]

Jab is nothing more than a setup. It should never be used to damage things. If you're trying to use jab to kill things, you're doing it very wrong. Why not try a punch instead?

You make a precise attempt to punch a kobold!
You have good positioning against a kobold.
UAF: 434 vs UDF: 60 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 70 = 266
... and hit for 81 points of damage!
Stiffened fingers punch right through right eye and into the head!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

EDIT: I realized I wasn't holding a shield and that was what the whole argument was about. Here's one with shield:

You make a precise attempt to punch a rolton!
Your attack is hindered by holding a dented dark blue shield!
You have good positioning against a rolton.
UAF: 414 vs UDF: 58 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 48 + d100: 85 = 181
... and hit for 52 points of damage!
Powerful uppercut crushes right eye like jelly!
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

[Warriorbird]

Jab is nothing more than a setup. It should never be used to damage things. If you're trying to use jab to kill things, you're doing it very wrong. Why not try a punch instead?

You make a precise attempt to punch a kobold!
You have good positioning against a kobold.
UAF: 434 vs UDF: 60 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 98 + d100: 70 = 266
... and hit for 81 points of damage!
Stiffened fingers punch right through right eye and into the head!
The kobold crumples to a heap on the ground and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

EDIT: I realized I wasn't holding a shield and that was what the whole argument was about. Here's one with shield:

You make a precise attempt to punch a rolton!
Your attack is hindered by holding a dented dark blue shield!
You have good positioning against a rolton.
UAF: 414 vs UDF: 58 = 2.000 (capped) * MM: 48 + d100: 85 = 181
... and hit for 52 points of damage!
Powerful uppercut crushes right eye like jelly!
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
Roundtime: 4 sec.


So it's like a 12 second attack for not two handed .DF? Bleah.

[Mohrgan]

As for being replaced with "one in line with other combat styles" tell me, which one? There is nothing else like the new system. I applaud them for developing it, I just think that anyone 2x trained in bawling and having a free hand ought to be able to throw a punch that's at least moderately effective. That's what people are missing. Very few people used Voln Fu as a regular hunting style. At best it was a supplement for most.

This is basically what I was getting at. The old Voln Fu definitely had some quirks that made it a nice backup style (the lack of encumbrance comes to mind) which probably deserved a nerf, to be perfectly honest. In that sense, yes, it's "more in line" with other styles now. But it did require fully training in a weapon style, Brawling, to be worth a damn, especially at high levels. I'd not call that minimal investment, it's the same as any secondary weapon style would be. Mostly the stunning of undead/non-corp and the encumbrance thing were what made it super sweet. Still, "At best it was a supplement" is right on, for anyone at high level.

But it's just silly that I can all of a sudden not throw a meaningful punch in any way shape or form (swinging open handed doesn't count) while holding a shield, especially when CMAN HAYMAKER is perfectly fine with a shield. Not that this would be the first, nor the last, instance of GS and logic parting ways...

And Voln Fu holding a shield did have a penalty to MB versus two open hands, it just wasn't totally crippling.

I'm not going to roll a monk. I have no desire to play a monk. I have even less desire to turn my main character who has been a warrior for a dozen or more years suddenly into another profession. I just think it's bizarre in the extreme that a capped warrior shouldn't be able to throw a punch with one empty hand when they are fully trained in Brawl. Again, I was expecting to see some of the afore mentioned aspects of the old Fu which gave it it's various cases in which it was overpowered get nerfed. I just wasn't expecting it to totally do away with the viability of such a long standing and popular training path as abruptly and completely as it did.

It is what it is. It's a bummer, but that's what FIXSKILLS is for, I guess. It's just kind of annoying to have a decade plus of character development along a certain path be suddenly forced to take a total 180. The rest of the Voln updates are sweet.

[Gelston]

Well, there is a place to voice your complaints where it will be heard. Throw them on the official forums. I fully expect tweaks to be made to the UCS in the coming months.

[Tepin]

I would like to see shields work better with the UCS as well. It should be weaker, but still viable at like level. Make it so it's only viable to do it with a small shield if you like. It's hard to argue that someone wouldn't want to carry a buckler even if they know martial arts, unless there a monk or something.

[Warriorbird]

Maybe if you 3x shield you're better at punching with one?

Can you Jab/Jab/Kick with a shield?

[Mohrgan]

Well, there is a place to voice your complaints where it will be heard. Throw them on the official forums. I fully expect tweaks to be made to the UCS in the coming months.

For sure. There is a thread in Warriors on the officials and another one in the Voln folder where I and others have already been discussing it. I just made this thread so there would be a place where we could discuss it without pulling punches in the same way the officials make you do. The change is annoying, and I'm pretty damn annoyed by it, but expressing too much annoyance with candor on the officials is probably just going to get your posts pulled.

[Gelston]

That is true Mohrgan. I see the change as a good thing, myself. I'm a little biased towards them. I'm usually in the camp of "leave shit alone" but I really enjoy the new UCS. I think I might have a different idea on them, having Betaed them having spoken with Finros about them and such. Is there room for improvement on them? Definitely. I will not disagree there. And I am pretty sure Finros will listen to the complaints and adjust as needed.

[Aluvius]

I think they should offer a free fixskills or even a fixskills period. It completely changed the dynamic of voln-fu for oh/shield users from a free special attack to another combat style, no other dual combat style builds were affected like the shield users.

However I also think its still doable to make a viable oh/shield/voln ucs build but it'll require adjustment in training and equipment and tactics. Voln fu let you min/max everything into oh/shield build and spend tp's on a very cheap skill (brawling, that's what I meant by minimal tp investment). In return you didn't have to adjust from your main combat style and just use kick as a special attack. Now its like the other dual builds in that you'll have to sling your shield to use it, which may well not be worth it to many.

Probably you'll have to have a more balanced dodge/shield training plan at the very least and perhaps use smaller shields if that is adjusted for UCS. Again it may just not be worth it.

[Mohrgan]

To be completely honest, the combat ramifications themselves to the build irk me a lot less than the fact that it's essentially forcing me to abruptly redefine a character whose identity that I have spent like twelve years developing around being able to hold his own in a fist fight. It's being forced to invest 1500 TPs in a useless skill just so I can have that RP aspect of the character not radically altered or changing the identity that I spent years building overnight. It just bugs the hell out of me that I (and presumably others) are having our hands more or less forced here, especially since it seems so out of the blue, particularly when there was SO MUCH discussion previous to the change where this rather key detail never seemed to come up (or at least if it did, I totally missed it).

I really didn't even use Voln Fu that often anymore, it wasn't very effective against post cap creatures, anyway. But just knowing that I used to use it a lot, and that I still could if I wanted to without getting my ass handed to me was part of the character.

Since Mohrgan is a Mentor, I actually could have participated in beta testing, in which case I at least wouldn't be so surprised but I never did because I just don't have that kind of extra time at the moment. I'm lucky when I have a chance to even play the game.


edit: Arrrgghhh the more angles you look at this from, the harder it blows for shield users. So now, we can either train fully in 2x brawl which is going to have zero combat utility for us without debilitating DS issues OR we can FIXSKILL and pick a different secondary weapon style, but then there are serious DS issues any time you aren't holding your weapon AND shield, because of the way open right hand DS and Brawling are tied together.

So, we either get to keep our training the way it is and just accept that now we ONE mode of combat for the price of TWO, or we drop the brawl and all of a sudden we take a ginormous drop in DS any time we stow away our weapon to pick up a gem, because we've totally lost the open hand DS contribution of Brawl. In the immortal words of Tenacious D..."Fuckin'... ...cock-ass".

[Androidpk]

Can you Jab/Jab/Kick with a shield?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6eZcV1UuUzI

[Aluvius]

Oops, nm Finros post about revising held items and fixskills was posted already in another topic.