Question for the law experts out there

[Tgo01]

For those who haven't been following my car thread my car needed work done about 3 weeks ago, the place I brought it to claimed they fixed the problem only for a worse problem to crop up 10 days later and now the car needs a whole new engine. I think this place either performed an unnecessary repair or they caused the engine to die a mere 10 days later, whether they did it on purpose or through negligence I can't say. I'm thinking of disputing the charges through my credit card company, assuming the credit card company sides with me and reverses the charges what can the dealership do?

The charges amount to about 1,000 dollars. As far as I'm aware the most they could do is put a mechanic's lien on my car but if I'm understanding the law in my state correctly they can only do this if the car is in their possession. Can they put a lien on any of my other property? I'm sure they could sue me but honestly I wouldn't care, even if they won I would be no worse off than I am now and I'd love to counter sue them and see what the judge thinks about the car needing 5000 dollars in repairs 10 days after being in their possession. Can they report this on my credit? Just curious all of the things they could do.

[Androidpk]

Wouldn't you have to prove that they did something negligent?

[Liagala]

(I did not read the other thread, so if you did this already, please disregard) I'd get it looked at by a mechanic who is both trustworthy and willing to swear to their opinion before doing anything like that. If you have no verifiable evidence that they did something wrong, their suit will squash you like a bug. They're responsible for fixing the error(s) you asked them to fix, not going over your entire car and looking for stuff that's on its way out. A case might be made for glaring issues that they couldn't help but see while they were fixing the previous problem, but even that is iffy.

[Tgo01]

Wouldn't you have to prove that they did something negligent?

I honestly don't know how disputing with a credit card company works, never did it before but I hear people all the time saying they do stuff like that when they feel they've been wronged. The credit card company either agrees with the customer or the merchant.


(I did not read the other thread, so if you did this already, please disregard) I'd get it looked at by a mechanic who is both trustworthy and willing to swear to their opinion before doing anything like that. If you have no verifiable evidence that they did something wrong, their suit will squash you like a bug. They're responsible for fixing the error(s) you asked them to fix, not going over your entire car and looking for stuff that's on its way out. A case might be made for glaring issues that they couldn't help but see while they were fixing the previous problem, but even that is iffy.

I brought the car to them because the "check engine" light popped up. They "fixed" whatever it was that caused the check engine light to pop up, 10 days later the car dies they look at it again and now the check engine light is on again. I'll admit I'm no expert in cars but it sounds fishy to me that the car needed a thermostat then 10 days later the car needs a whole new engine and the two aren't connected at all. I agree that if I bring the car in to them because it's leaking oil and they fix the oil leak then 2 weeks later the transmission blows I wouldn't necessarily expect them to have caught the problem but if I bring the car to them because there is an obvious problem with the engine then 10 days later the entire engine dies I would imagine that would be something they should have saw and informed me about.

[Liagala]

What was the problem that caused the check engine light to come on the first time? What is the current problem (not just "need new engine" - get specifics)? Your check engine light can come on because you didn't screw your gas cap in tightly enough last time you filled up, or it can come on because your entire engine is shooting flames 20 feet into the sky (hopefully you're not still around to see the light at that point). There's a gigantic range of issues it can be, many of which are completely unrelated to any others. In fixing the original problem, they might not have been anywhere near the faulty part(s) of your engine. You need a lot more information before you call your credit card company. I'm not saying you're wrong, but do some research and talk to a mechanic or three first.

[Tgo01]

They claimed the check engine light came on originally because it needed a new thermostat and now they are saying the car was overheating so bad the coolant literally melted through parts of the engine and they say the car now needs a new engine. As far as I understand something like that could happen because of a faulty thermostat, yet they supposedly replaced the thermostat 10 days prior.

I know I should take the car to another mechanic but since the car isn't really drivable I would have to pay over 200 dollars just to have the car towed to the shop and back plus another 100 dollars to have them look at the problem.

[Liagala]

That's sounding better, but you're still not going to get anywhere when they eventually sue you for their money by saying, "But they must have done it wrong, your honor." You're going to need hard proof, and that only comes from another mechanic willing to put his ass on the line for it. If the credit card company does agree with you and deny the payment it doesn't mean that you magically stop owing - just that this particular form of payment is no longer applicable. The mechanic then just bills you (plus any returned-charge fees), and you go back to square one.

If I were in your position, I'd pony up to get the car towed somewhere else, and get said hard proof in hand. Then I'd go back to the first mechanic and ask him how he likes having his name and this proof plastered across several local news outlets. See what happens from there. But you'll need the proof first.

[Tgo01]

If the credit card company does agree with you and deny the payment it doesn't mean that you magically stop owing - just that this particular form of payment is no longer applicable. The mechanic then just bills you (plus any returned-charge fees), and you go back to square one.

I'm not really too concerned if they sue me though, as I said before even if I lose I would be no worse off than I am now, maybe a couple hundred dollars behind because of filing fees and whatnot. At least I would be making them work for their money and having to pay one or more of their employees to spend a couple of hours in court. I'm more worried they can put a lien on something I own.


If I were in your position, I'd pony up to get the car towed somewhere else, and get said hard proof in hand. Then I'd go back to the first mechanic and ask him how he likes having his name and this proof plastered across several local news outlets. See what happens from there. But you'll need the proof first.

What I'm worried about though is if the mechanic can prove there was any negligence on their part. The engine is supposedly already shot, can a mechanic now look at it and say they should have seen it coming 10 days prior?

[jpatter123]

I thought situations such as these would be considered bad check/fraud if disputing because you don't want to pay. I know if you stop payment on a check in these situations you will have a warrant issued for your arrest. I know tow companies in Florida can lien your driver's license which means pay or lose your license and cannot renew.

[Tgo01]

I thought situations such as these would be considered bad check/fraud if disputing because you don't want to pay.

Well of course every dispute could be boiled down to "I don't want to pay." But the reason for why people don't want to pay would matter. For example if I went to Target and bought one DVD player but they charged me for two and I didn't realize this until the next day and Target refuses to take off the charge I would dispute the charge on my credit card because I don't want to pay for a second DVD player I never received.


I know tow companies in Florida can lien your driver's license which means pay or lose your license and cannot renew.

That's kind of what I'm wondering. Seems like when it comes to work done on your car the businesses have a lot more power to do something than say if you disputed a charge with your local Wal-Mart.

[g++]

I don't know shit about the law but I am pretty sure you would have to make up a different story to get a credit card reversal in a case like this.

[Ashmoreth]

That's sounding better, but you're still not going to get anywhere when they eventually sue you for their money by saying, "But they must have done it wrong, your honor." You're going to need hard proof, and that only comes from another mechanic willing to put his ass on the line for it. If the credit card company does agree with you and deny the payment it doesn't mean that you magically stop owing - just that this particular form of payment is no longer applicable. The mechanic then just bills you (plus any returned-charge fees), and you go back to square one.


If I were in your position, I'd pony up to get the car towed somewhere else, and get said hard proof in hand. Then I'd go back to the first mechanic and ask him how he likes having his name and this proof plastered across several local news outlets. See what happens from there. But you'll need the proof first.

Sounds like you either got a defective part or the mechanic did something wrong. If the former there are some strict products liability options, the easiest of which would probably be a manufacturing defect. That suit would be against whoever made the thermostat, and maybe against the mechanic. Most if not all jurisdictions impose strict liability for manufacturing defects on all parties in the chain of distribution, provided they are not just an occasional seller. There may be a design defect, but that would take a mountain of expert testimony and isn't worth your time.

As to the mechanic, there is a legal doctrine called res ipsa loquitur (the thing speaks for itself), where breach of a duty can be inferred from surrounding facts even if the exact cause is unknown. So, if you sue the mechanic in negligence, you might be able to invoke that doctrine even if you can't pinpoint the exact cause. You just have to show that the event was the type which would not normally occur absent some negligence, that it was more likely than not that the defendant was responsible (might have to show exclusive control in some states), and that you were not responsible. That being said, it would be better to have an expert opinion on whether it was improperly installed or if it looks like it properly installed but just broken.

All of this assumes you're willing to sue. You might be able to get a lawyer to do a demand letter for you for pretty cheap, or you could try yourself. Hopefully the mechanic responds to that. Stopping payment on the CC could actually amount to CC fraud, especially since you received property (the broken thermostat). Not knowing anything about the state you are in, I'd advise against that unless you are sure there is no chance it would be a crime.

Not a lawyer. Not legal advice, just some info to think about.

[Ker_Thwap]

The lien issue will vary by state. However, there's really no point in dealing with that, it will only cost you more money.

It's a 2006 Stratus which is a cheap car that's known to have an engine with oil sludge issues, which in turn cause several other issues in the engine. There's about zero chance you're going to convince anyone important that your current mechanic sabotaged your engine. The cost of determining that would pretty much involve tearing apart the entire engine to diagnose every single flaw in it, then deciding which one is the underlying cause of engine failure. Then you'd have to prove that the current mechanic caused the issue. Who will then respond with, the client didn't authorize us to tear down the entire engine, we had no way of knowing "that" is what was wrong.

Your problem is with Chrysler for selling a crappy engine design in the first place. Even if you get a new/newer engine it will still have the same design flaws and probably only last another five years.

Pay the mechanic for what you owe and walk away from the car, cut your losses. Maybe you can sell the Stratus for parts and get a few hundred dollars, or find a charity that accepts non running cars.

Lawyers fees will exceed the value of the car, with minimal chance to win. Getting people to actually pay settlements is another giant headache, in which you'll have to pay your attorney even more.

[AnticorRifling]

I don't often say this but Ker_Thwap is right.

[Warriorbird]

I'd agree. Not speaking as anybody's attorney, but res ipsa ain't easy, either.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ker Thwap pretty much stated the obvious, and if your trust of mechanics is so low you should buy one of those diagnostic computers that plugs into your car that'll read the computer code and tell you what the check engine light means in the first place. Or go to Pep Boys or your local auto parts store and more than likely they will let you hook theirs up to read it.

Mechanics generally want to create repeat customers just like anyone else, and not by sabotaging their client’s cars. So take the lawyer off of speed dial, pay your bill, and realize sometimes its just shitty luck that your 6k car just died. No one likes to pay a large bill, especially for something they "own" already, but it happens.

[Atlanteax]

For those who haven't been following my car thread my car needed work done about 3 weeks ago, the place I brought it to claimed they fixed the problem only for a worse problem to crop up 10 days later and now the car needs a whole new engine. I think this place either performed an unnecessary repair or they caused the engine to die a mere 10 days later, whether they did it on purpose or through negligence I can't say. I'm thinking of disputing the charges through my credit card company, assuming the credit card company sides with me and reverses the charges what can the dealership do?

The charges amount to about 1,000 dollars. As far as I'm aware the most they could do is put a mechanic's lien on my car but if I'm understanding the law in my state correctly they can only do this if the car is in their possession. Can they put a lien on any of my other property? I'm sure they could sue me but honestly I wouldn't care, even if they won I would be no worse off than I am now and I'd love to counter sue them and see what the judge thinks about the car needing 5000 dollars in repairs 10 days after being in their possession. Can they report this on my credit? Just curious all of the things they could do.

Not necessarily related to your particular issue/question, but this reminds me of what happened to my Ford Mustang like 10 years ago.

Car = fine.
Got a notification about recall regarding the coolant system, and a free replacement will be done.
Took car to dealership, got the thing replaced.
About a week and half later, develop an oil leak issue.
Took car to dealership, got that addressed.
About a week and half later, drive side door seemed to start 'sticking' (difficult to shut and open at times)
Took car to dealership, got that addressed.
About a week and half later, passenger side window started to 'stick' (difficult to lower and raise)
"FARK THIS SHIT"

That entire episode made me very apprehensive of doing anything dealership-related since.
Seemed like there was a minor subtle 'conspiracy' as it is entirely too coincidental for:
Coolant issue => Oil leak ... Driver Door => Passenger Window

So when I hear stuff about dealerships (and bodyshops as experienced by the OP) inventing problems to make money... I believe it.

[Latrinsorm]

Welcome to the wonderful world of paranoia! I would give you a hug but you could be crawling with disease.

[AbnInfamy]

Not necessarily related to your particular issue/question, but this reminds me of what happened to my Ford Mustang like 10 years ago.

That entire episode made me very apprehensive of doing anything dealership-related since.
Seemed like there was a minor subtle 'conspiracy' as it is entirely too coincidental for:
Coolant issue => Oil leak ... Driver Door => Passenger Window

So when I hear stuff about dealerships (and bodyshops as experienced by the OP) inventing problems to make money... I believe it.

Honestly, this is good engineering. The companies design their equipment to last a certain about of time. My money is designing around the warranty in this case. Good engineers would have data on how many times the average person rolls their window up and down in a given year. Make sure the motor lasts the average +1.

This is applied to every system on the vehicle. If you make a car that runs 500,000 miles, you're going to have 1 very happy customer for 50 years, make a car that runs 100,000 miles you have one semi-happy customer that has to buy 5 cars over 50 years.

I don't believe it's a coincidence that everything on a car starts breaking at the same time at all. It's careful planning.

[Ashmoreth]

135 S.W.3d 425 ("Evidence was sufficient to show that car fire would not normally occur in absence of negligence, in car owner's negligence action based on theory of res ipsa loquitur against car repairer after owner's car was destroyed by fire four days after repairer replaced car's intake manifold, even though car was three years old and had 52,000 miles of use; repairer disconnected and reconnected fuel lines to engine in process of replacing manifold, repair technician believed fuel lines ruptured and caused fire, owner did not have any trouble with fuel lines before repair work, and it would be unusual for fuel lines to leak and cause fire without intervening act of manipulation.").

Whoever neg repped me because I said res ipsa loquitur might be available, might want to consider this case. The big issue is the time lapse after the possibly negligent repair.See 602 So.2d 594 (not available 9 months and 14k miles later); 258 So.2d 280 (available when repair occurred after only 15-20 miles); 75 So.2d 586 (available where accident occurred aft 100-150ft). The line is somewhere between 4 days and 9 months.

Not a lawyer; not legal advice. Feels good to be right though. 14 days until BAR exam.

[Tgo01]

Is that really the general consensus here? Give the car away, suck it up and take it like a man? I understand that maybe disputing the charges might not be the best way to go about it but no one finds it odd that I take the car in to be fixed for a cooling issue, they charge me to fix said cooling issue then 10 days later my car dies because of a cooling issue and these were supposedly two totally isolated events that couldn't be foreseen 10 days prior? I could understand 10 months later and shit happens in the meantime but 10 days?

I'm not necessarily saying they did this on purpose but I do think they either fucked something up when they put the thermostat in or they were negligent and didn't notice a more serious problem.

I'm also confused about the lawyer advice. I never said I was going to sue them and even if I did it would be small claims court.

[g++]

Well I doubt they took the entire engine apart for whatever you paid them to replace the thermostat for one thing. They probably saw the light was on, saw the thermostat was broken and replaced it and sent you on your merry way. How much did they charge you to replace the thermostat and did they tell you they did a full engine inspect? For all they know without taking the engine apart and doing a thorough inspection 7 out of 8 pistons are soldered in and your driving a time bomb. I don't think any of us are mechanics so I think the original advice to take it to another mecahanic and see what they think is your best bet. I don't think you really have any recourse from the story provided.

[Warriorbird]

135 S.W.3d 425 ("Evidence was sufficient to show that car fire would not normally occur in absence of negligence, in car owner's negligence action based on theory of res ipsa loquitur against car repairer after owner's car was destroyed by fire four days after repairer replaced car's intake manifold, even though car was three years old and had 52,000 miles of use; repairer disconnected and reconnected fuel lines to engine in process of replacing manifold, repair technician believed fuel lines ruptured and caused fire, owner did not have any trouble with fuel lines before repair work, and it would be unusual for fuel lines to leak and cause fire without intervening act of manipulation.").

Whoever neg repped me because I said res ipsa loquitur might be available, might want to consider this case. The big issue is the time lapse after the possibly negligent repair.See 602 So.2d 594 (not available 9 months and 14k miles later); 258 So.2d 280 (available when repair occurred after only 15-20 miles); 75 So.2d 586 (available where accident occurred aft 100-150ft). The line is somewhere between 4 days and 9 months.

Not a lawyer; not legal advice. Feels good to be right though. 14 days until BAR exam.

Rather easy to distinguish.

[Tenlaar]

Who was the guy that owned a shop from the thread where that other guy was a total fucking douche and said anybody who works a job like that lacks ambition or intelligence?

[Ker_Thwap]

You can be 100% legally correct in theory, but my opinion is that you'd lose a lot more money proving it even if you were right.

Search the internet, it's a junk engine. There are thousands of complaints about this engine. Varied complaints. Even if you could narrow the engine failure to the single cooling issue and agree the thermostat was the proper or improper cure. There's always the question of what percentage of harm was done to the engine before you brought it in for repair. Did you pay for a full and complete diagnostic test, or did they say, "it's overheating, let's try the thermostat first?" Many thousand of mechanics have agreed that the Stratus 2.7 engine is a piece of crap, and replaced item after item on the engine only to have it die anyway.

You can try to join in the class action lawsuit against Chrysler, and you might get lucky eventually down the road and recoup a small amount. I've never heard of the actual victims profiting much in these cases however.

This is why I buy Honda and Toyota. (Yes, yes, I'm a bad American.)

[Atlanteax]

Who was the guy that owned a shop from the thread where that other guy was a total fucking douche and said anybody who works a job like that lacks ambition or intelligence?

Keller was the one who said anyone who owns and works at an auto shop lacks ambition, iirc.

[Ashmoreth]

Rather easy to distinguish.

Agreed, but so are the ones saying its not available. Guess I'd rather offer a potentially helpful solution, coupled with a warning it's not a sure thing, than just tell people they are screwed even when they might not be.

[4a6c1]

Welcome to the wonderful world of paranoia! I would give you a hug but you could be crawling with disease.

This made me lol.



Mechanics generally want to create repeat customers just like anyone else, and not by sabotaging their client’s cars. So take the lawyer off of speed dial, pay your bill, and realize sometimes its just shitty luck that your 6k car just died. No one likes to pay a large bill, especially for something they "own" already, but it happens.

This also made me lol but because I was coming to post the same, with some sarcams mkay. It's good though. I'm adaptable. Hmm. Lets see:

My opinion is that your CHOICES brought you to this and that you should face your CHOICES and quit asking for handouts and entitlements. Fuck Forrest Gump - shit does not happen. Pay your bill and quit complaining. The business is always right. The customer is always wrong.

Yep. Looks good. okaybye.

[Warriorbird]

Agreed, but so are the ones saying its not available. Guess I'd rather offer a potentially helpful solution, coupled with a warning it's not a sure thing, than just tell people they are screwed even when they might not be.

Keep your idealism please.

[Ashmoreth]

Keep your idealism please.

I intend to.

[Oxxon]

If it was a cooling issue then you might have overheated the engine. I would bet that one of the aluminum heads became warped and it was only time before the head gasket gave out. If you have time pop the hood and remove the radiator cap. Crank the engine and if water is forced out of the radiator then you have a warped head.