MoC v. Ambush

[ZombiesDontRun]

Newly returned and decided to try out a Paladin...yada yada the rest. I am pretty comfortable with which skills are the basics for a OHB/Shield build. I was wondering which is generally more effective (at lower levels and in the long run); ambush or MOC. TP wise I swing one or other without hurting the basics. I have mostly played pures in the past so do not have much experience with those skills, but definitely want something to help negate some of OH plinking. I really do not want to switch THW or Pole (though I am sure at least one person will still suggest that.)

[mgoddess]

MoC is usually better to get, earlier on, since it gives both mstrike capability and FoF defense. 30 ranks gives you defense from 3 creatures/foes, before having DS cut from swarming, 3 unfocused strikes & 2 focused strikes when mstriking.

While my paladin is level 73 and doesn't have any ambush training (her training is pretty weird, though), I think most paladins do start training in ambush somewhere around level 40-ish.

[Menos]

For one handed weapons, I vote for MOC. By the time you need to aim a one hander, your CM ranks alone will do the trick.

[chrenraf]

At cap I have 0 ranks of Ambush and 90 ranks of MoC. Sword and baord build with everything having grapple flares. (use ivas as your diety!!!! Let me stress that. It is epic) I 1615/1630 then mstrike ftw.

[chrenraf]

Let me add GoS to your list of what to do. The sigils with what was posted above is really amazing. If you go sword and board you really are going to be safe.

[thefarmer]

Menos and Mgoddess said what I would have.

I can only really add that you've got a tower shield and access to shield Cmans. Using that, along with Divine Strike and Judgement as a setup will help that plinking, along with MOC and Mstrike.

[ZombiesDontRun]

Thanks for the suggestions. I was leaning towards MoC, so its nice to have confirmation. I almost forgot about Cmans since I don't have the points (or levels) to use cmans reliably yet. I do have a spiked and sancted tower shield that I am very much looking forward to bashing with...still need to find a decent star, but that can wait.

I'm not sure that I could RP an Ivas paladin...but the grapple flairs do sort of make me want to giggle.

[chrenraf]

^ Yeah, the seductress loves to grapple. lol

[Menos]

With the all ready high knockdown effects from 1615 and 1630, I would personally shy away from grapple flares. I seem to recall that a pre-kneeling knockdown from the flare is supposed to stop the spell RT inducing effects. I would rather stick to something with a higher chance to do damage and let the religion lore put them on the ground. YMMV

[WRoss]

For one handed weapons, I vote for MOC. By the time you need to aim a one hander, your CM ranks alone will do the trick.

Even when I was using the lance, I could hit the head about 9/10 times with 2x CMAN. Though, this is post cap...With the TWC OHE setup now, I have no problem landing waraxes to the head consistently.

[Dragoon]

Another thing to look at is the crit threshold for each different type of damage. There's a few interesting choices to make (steam grapple random), but I'd go with something more practical. A few choices could be: Kuon (crush) Niima (impact) Lumnis and Marlu (acid). That's just to name a few.
The full list of the Deities and their flares can be found here:http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/1615

The choice is up to you. Do you want RP capabilities? Or do you want combat efficiency? (Not saying you can't have both though)

Also, training in ambush usually goes hand in hand with the hiding skill.
Open ambush relies on how well you are trained in Combat maneuvers, whereas attacking from hiding relies on the ambush skill.

[Menos]

Also, training in ambush usually goes hand in hand with the hiding skill.
Open ambush relies on how well you are trained in Combat maneuvers, whereas attacking from hiding relies on the ambush skill.

From the open, both CM and ambush are factored in. Some rogue will need to chime in for all the skills needed for hide/ambush.

[ZombiesDontRun]

The choice is up to you. Do you want RP capabilities? Or do you want combat efficiency? (Not saying you can't have both though)

Also, training in ambush usually goes hand in hand with the hiding skill.
Open ambush relies on how well you are trained in Combat maneuvers, whereas attacking from hiding relies on the ambush skill.

I actually chose a diety with crush flares for RP and other reasons (I really didn't want fire.)

My understanding of open ambushing is that ambush ranks count equal to CM ranks. I could be mistaken. My highest leveled is a wizard and the GMs steadfastly refuse to believe that a skilled mage could actually aim bolts...

The plinking is going a lot better now that I have rank 2 in shield bash. Aren't 3 ranks required for proficiency with a CM against like leveled? Hopefully in a few levels I will get even more consistent knock downs.

Basicly the low levels just suck but at least they are easier to get through now. It's definitely nice to have help.

[mgoddess]

Another thing to look at is the crit threshold for each different type of damage. There's a few interesting choices to make (steam grapple random), but I'd go with something more practical. A few choices could be: Kuon (crush) Niima (impact) Lumnis and Marlu (acid). That's just to name a few.
The full list of the Deities and their flares can be found here:http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/1615

The choice is up to you. Do you want RP capabilities? Or do you want combat efficiency? (Not saying you can't have both though)

Also, training in ambush usually goes hand in hand with the hiding skill.
Open ambush relies on how well you are trained in Combat maneuvers, whereas attacking from hiding relies on the ambush skill.
From the open, both CM and ambush are factored in. Some rogue will need to chime in for all the skills needed for hide/ambush.
Menos has it correct: CMan & Ambush skill are both factored in when aiming/ambushing from the open.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/AMBUSH_%28verb%29

[Jace Solo]

But as you level the number of ambush ranks to accurately hit a specific space on a target reduces because your CMAN ranks have increased. I think Jeril had some pretty hard data that showed you can train a bunch to get started if you want but later you'd want to fix skill out of it because your increase chance for hitting would be something like .09 without ambush VS .0904 with 40 ranks of it or something.

This is all second hand and from memory of a discussion months ago so please take it with a grain of salt

[Dragoon]

From the open, both CM and ambush are factored in. Some rogue will need to chime in for all the skills needed for hide/ambush.

Ah I read it wrong then. I read it as 'hiding = ambush skill open aim = cman skill'
My bad :forehead: