Open archery at 93?

[JustDan]

Update: I ended up here, and it worked just the way I wanted it to.

140 Armor Use (Full Plate)
2x Ranged Weapons
1x CM (Feint, Disarm, Surge and Mobility, then Wspec sprinkled in)
5 MOC (just enough for a little bit of FoF suppression
2x Ambush
1x PF
3x Dodge (generating offensive DS)
65 Climb
30 Swim
2x Perception
20 Arcane Symbols
15 MIU
20 Harness Power
Spells to 414 and 120

The build is very strong, and doesn't have many noticeable weaknesses. Crystal flares are annoying, but survivable most of the time. Guild skills are critical (particularly stun maneuvers and sweep), as is the wearing of plate (naturally resistant to most cheapshots). I can wear 23 mana over and above self-cast, so I can roll with 401, 406, 414, 101, 103, 107, 120, 202, 503 and 509 without fear of spellburst. I do still die on occasion (OTF does that), generally to crystal flares, area webs, or adepts with their spinning disks (which will short-circuit a plate-wearer's nervous system on occasion).

[Jeril]

Looks like a solid plan to me. For the webs, I know Gib modded his go2 to stop and take care of them. If you can code well enough you could do the same. You probably know about it but I will mention it anyway, opaline dust, it is alchemy made and will get rid of webs, you can't use it on yourself once you are webbed but you could toss it on an area web to remove it. And yes, getting caught by an area web is a hidden TD check, I rarely get caught by them any more, of course being a berserking warrior they aren't quite the issue for me that they are for you either. No idea if you are wearing fullplate right now or not but that will certainly help as will 101, 107, and 120, especially if you aren't wearing them currently when you hunt. I can only wear 101 and 107 with my training and its enough for me. You are also likely either CoL or GoS for a society, use your TD booster.

[DaCapn]

Why not go for 2x PF before 3x dodge? If you have massive PTP -> MTP conversion, you'd only have to sacrifice something like 36 ranks of dodge. That would only be sacrificing a less than 24 points of offensive DS. You'd get a pretty sizable boost to maneuver defense and redux.

[JustDan]

Why not go for 2x PF before 3x dodge? If you have massive PTP -> MTP conversion, you'd only have to sacrifice something like 36 ranks of dodge. That would only be sacrificing a less than 24 points of offensive DS. You'd get a pretty sizable boost to maneuver defense and redux.

I thought about it... and still might. I really am more concerned with DS, but anything that'll help me resist the griffin's whole Call Wind maneuver is a bonus.

[JustDan]

Pulled the trigger last night, and am MUCH happier with the build. Still two deaths, but both are the type I can live with (so to speak) at this level. Got disarmed once in a swarm (and immediately was glad I saved some points from the fixskill, went in and grabbed 4 ranks of Disarm), and the other was a seer getting a 150+ d100 roll on a web attempt. Other than that, though, no real issues, and this definitely looks like it'll work.

[Jace Solo]

Glad that worked out. Good info here.

[Jeril]

Which did you end up going with, the 2x PF, or the 3x dodge?

[JustDan]

Which did you end up going with, the 2x PF, or the 3x dodge?

The 3x dodge. I can appreciate the value of the PF, but the decision was based solely on not wanting to have to push for 3x dodge post-cap. I'd much rather get the 2x PF as a post-cap goal (much cheaper, so the ranks would come faster). And so far the plate has been doing a good job of helping with crits and maneuvers.

I've found that my DS in offensive stance is more than enough to not have to worry about any physical attacks, especially wearing the plate, which is exactly what I was hoping for. My TD turned out good enough to resist anything thrown at me below about a 75 d100 roll, which is a bit lower than I'd hoped, but it's livable. Swarms aren't my best friend, but I'm in the process of making some ewave amulets to help with crowd control.

[Scintillion]

Im considering a fixskill to drop hiding and picking for now, to power him through these levels, and making picking a post-cap goal. My proposed build:

140 Armor (full plate)
2x Ranged
70 CMan
5 MOC
2x Ambush
1x PF (first post-cap goal = 202)
3x Dodge (hoping to get enough offensive DS from this to survive firing in the open)
65 Climb
65 Swim
2x Perception
20 Arcane Symbols
15 MIU
20 Harness Power
Spells to 414/120 (hoping to add to DS and TD enough via these to survive firing in the open)




Reroll as a warrior.

[BriarFox]

You could have just learned Vanish and kept the hiding build, but the new build looks very solid. I'd ramp up the CMANs for useful takedowns and such. And the fact that you're hunting self-cast in OTF with that sort of TD is fairly remarkable for a rogue. Get a 508 imbed and you'll probably be impervious to most spells.

[DaCapn]

Reroll as a warrior.
It's kind of funny that you quoted the one sentence in his post that makes your suggestion dumb.

[JustDan]

You could have just learned Vanish and kept the hiding build, but the new build looks very solid. I'd ramp up the CMANs for useful takedowns and such. And the fact that you're hunting self-cast in OTF with that sort of TD is fairly remarkable for a rogue. Get a 508 imbed and you'll probably be impervious to most spells.

I was actually rolling with Vanish, but found myself using it FAR too often (popping my muscles along the way). At level 93, at least, hiding against griffins is a non-starter. And their entry to the room causing 20 seconds of RT, with the way OTF swarms, was just a straight recipe for disaster. My typical hunt went something like this:

{Guild task to kill seers}
{Find seer}
{one-shot kill}
Griffin enters the room, causing 20 seconds of RT
Griffin spots me and attacks while I still have 15 seconds of RT
Failed Vanish Attempt - a Janissary and two heralds stroll in
Failed Vanish Attempt - herald dispels me while griffin does their call wind maneuver, putting me on the ground in offensive stance, incurring 12 more seconds of RT
{carnage}
Me thinking I need another beer.

The same scenario would play out stumbling across a web, and combined it was to the tune of about 6 deaths a night. Last night was extremely good, though. Zero deaths, flying through bounties... loving the new build. I could use some more CM training, but for now it's definitely workable. My only annoying part is trying to hit some of the things with WoF up, but I've got 5 ranks of Feint and am mastered in sweep, so as long as the room's not swarming too bad, it's quite doable.

My goal for now is to get him to cap, but then I have a long to-do list. I want to pump up his PF, CM, and scrolls and MIU training (to get more spells in without getting spellburst). But I think at this point I've found a strong, working build.

[JustDan]

Reroll as a warrior.

I absolutely LOVE my little warrior, and split my time between the two. No coincidence that I like playing this guy fairly warrior-like, but the spells add a very nice layer to the mix.

[Kitsun]

It isn't really a surprise that higher level rogues go for more in the open builds. My rogue is triple capped and I still haven't bothered going back for even a single rank of hide.

Hiding takes up a significant amount of time when you're working with aimed kill shots.
Plate, the armor group of choice, offers too many benefits to skip simply because it hinders hiding.
Difficulty of using hiding in capped areas that swarm. There's no such thing as perfect stealth and if you're a paper target in the open, you'll end up a smear on the ground any time something goes a little wrong.

My ass is way late to this thread but I would have recommended scaling back the Dodge training to like 2.25x and seeing what you needed and training in a bit at a time. Would've kept some points free incase you needed to add elsewhere.

[JustDan]

Hiding takes up a significant amount of time when you're working with aimed kill shots.
Plate, the armor group of choice, offers too many benefits to skip simply because it hinders hiding.
Difficulty of using hiding in capped areas that swarm. There's no such thing as perfect stealth and if you're a paper target in the open, you'll end up a smear on the ground any time something goes a little wrong.

:yeahthat:, times about a thousand.


I would have recommended scaling back the Dodge training to like 2.25x and seeing what you needed and training in a bit at a time. Would've kept some points free incase you needed to add elsewhere.

I had roughly the same thought, and left a good chunk of CM points unused, and did Dodge at about 2.5x, then did a couple of runs. Ended up going back for the 3x Dodge, though, once I saw my DS. My main goal was to be able to stand in the open, in offensive, and live most of the time. The dodge helps with that the most, and I've also been pleasantly surprised by how often, when in defensive, I actually evade the attack completely. I had been under the impression that in plate it was basically rendered nonfunctional, but I dodge attacks semi-regularly.

I also ended up using the CM points for Disarm, and was VERY glad I had kept the points out instead of dumping them into WSPEC. My AS is 473 at this point, which is enough to kill everything in OTF when coupled with Sweep and Feint, but Disarm I had completely spaced on. One early death (and loss of weapon) was enough to make me extremely grateful I had kept those points for just such a situation.

[DaCapn]

I absolutely LOVE my little warrior, and split my time between the two. No coincidence that I like playing this guy fairly warrior-like, but the spells add a very nice layer to the mix.
If you look at his past 10 posts, they're all combinations of the following words: you/your build/this/stats suck/sucks reroll a warrior.

Plate, the armor group of choice, offers too many benefits to skip simply because it hinders hiding.
Since when is this the case?

[Kitsun]

I'm not saying plate is the choice for all rogues; it is the primary choice for near/capped rogues that wants an in-the-open build.

[Scintillion]

To those who prefer to save training points and train/hunt like a warrior = would make sense to reroll and be one IMO.

[Kitsun]

To those who prefer to save training points and train/hunt like a warrior = would make sense to reroll and be one IMO.

Or you might just be a fucking moron to believe it makes sense.

[DaCapn]

I'm not saying plate is the choice for all rogues; it is the primary choice for near/capped rogues that wants an in-the-open build.
I was talking about the "because it hinders hiding" part.

Or you might just be a fucking moron to believe it makes sense.
I mentioned it before but this guy has given about a dozen pieces of advice, all in the rogue category, and they've all been pretty much the same. May well be a troll alt.

[Kitsun]

Apparently I might be misremembering AsG affecting hiding success rates. I guess there are not direct penalties based on the ARMOR abilities and some CMANs(?).

[Scintillion]

Or you might just be a fucking moron to believe it makes sense.

I suppose you're right. Makes sense that it is moronic to train a rogue in primary skills that directly aid in combat. Glad you were able to clarify things for me.

[AnticorRifling]

Excellent point the game has, in no way shape or form, changed in the 10 years since you "won".

[Scintillion]

Excellent point the game has, in no way shape or form, changed in the 10 years since you "won".

I'm happy that at least a few things have remained the same. Everyone is just as great at things like stat placement, race selection and training characters as they always were.

[Kitsun]

I suppose you're right. Makes sense that it is moronic to train a rogue in primary skills that directly aid in combat. Glad you were able to clarify things for me.


I'm happy that at least a few things have remained the same. Everyone is just as great at things like stat placement, race selection and training characters as they always were.

You typed out four sentences, had to edit twice and still you can't come up with a coherent thought.

[Scintillion]

You typed out four sentences, had to edit twice and still you can't come up with a coherent thought.

It's getting clearer to me now. There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who get binary and those who don't.

[DaCapn]

It's getting clearer to me now. There are 10 types of people in the world. Those who get binary and those who don't.

Funny you should mention this. There are 1/2 types of people in GS: those who can count PTP/MTP and those who can't.

If you take a look at the costs of ranged-related skills, it's immediately obvious that rogues have it better. Going one step forward with math, you'll see that the approximate cost differential per level for AU, CM, ranged, ambush, PF, perception is -6 PTP, +12.25 MTP as a rogue (meaning the training is cheaper for rogues MTP-wise). His tertiary skills favor the rogue as well but that's a minor difference (100/20 PTP/MTP total). I left out dodge and spell research intentionally. I leave those as an exercise to you. Hopefully you can figure out how that impacts the cost differential.

Let's not forget that he has a post-cap picking goal (you can advocate that he go warrior for this if you like).

If your goal here was to waste our time, mission accomplished. If it was to sound at all intelligent, to give sound advice, or make anyone angry with your idiocy, you've yet to do anything but crash and burn.

[RSR]

I'm curious how much AS/DS/TD gain or loss you might see if you bumped the spells up to 430 instead of stopping at 414 and dropping the dodge down as much as necessary to achieve that.

-Richard.

[Kitsun]

Dropping from a full 3x dodge to 2x dodge only nets you about 10-12 spell ranks. 425 is pretty awesome but probably not worth that much.

[jpatter123]

Dan what is your self cast DS and TD? I'm hoping to pull my 90ish Rogue out of the closet this week and going to fixskill him. It's been years since I played him, but I remember him getting pulled from hiding constantly in OTF which frustrated me and had me put him away. Back then I never even thought of open aiming build. I really don't want to lose picking so I've got a lot of crunching to do. If you wouldn't mind posting race and stats too so I can compare them to mine it would really help. Thanks in advance.

[JustDan]

Dan what is your self cast DS and TD? I'm hoping to pull my 90ish Rogue out of the closet this week and going to fixskill him. It's been years since I played him, but I remember him getting pulled from hiding constantly in OTF which frustrated me and had me put him away. Back then I never even thought of open aiming build. I really don't want to lose picking so I've got a lot of crunching to do. If you wouldn't mind posting race and stats too so I can compare them to mine it would really help. Thanks in advance.

Sure thing. I hit 94 pretty quickly with this build, and am rolling pretty good. Loving the new build, but do miss lockpicking.


>info
Name: Deron Elc'elallen Race: Elf Profession: Rogue (shown as: Predator)
Gender: Male Age: 598 Expr: 6963307 Level: 94
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Constitution (CON): 99 (24) ... 93 (21)
Dexterity (DEX): 98 (29) ... 98 (29)
Agility (AGI): 97 (38) ... 97 (38)
Discipline (DIS): 99 (9) ... 99 (9)
Aura (AUR): 96 (28) ... 96 (28)
Logic (LOG): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Intuition (INT): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Wisdom (WIS): 99 (24) ... 99 (24)
Influence (INF): 86 (28) ... 86 (28)
Mana: 68 Silver: 0

>skill
Deron (at level 94), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 240 140
Combat Maneuvers...................| 177 77
Ranged Weapons.....................| 292 192
Ambush.............................| 292 192
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 196 96
Dodging............................| 388 288
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 70 15
Harness Power......................| 90 20
Perception.........................| 292 192
Climbing...........................| 165 65
Swimming...........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 14

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 20
Training Points: 81 Phy 0 Mnt (438 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

First and foremost, I roll with a pocket wizard making imbeds for me, and using 503 and 509 (which is all I can carry without spellburst). So take 20 DS off of this, but here's a sample:

Defensive:

A war griffin swoops down from high overhead!
A war griffin tries to bite you!
AS: +435 vs DS: +677 with AvD: +7 + d100 roll: +83 = -152
A clean miss.

Offensive:

A war griffin rakes at you with a razor-sharp claw!
AS: +490 vs DS: +413 with AvD: +7 + d100 roll: +87 = +171
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Thrust glances off your knee.
Might be stiff tomorrow, but it's okay now.
A war griffin rakes at you with a razor-sharp claw!
AS: +490 vs DS: +413 with AvD: +7 + d100 roll: +79 = +163
... and hits for 6 points of damage!
Light, bruising slash to your left thigh.

TD:

An Ithzir adept thrusts both palms toward you!
CS: +387 - TD: +377 + CvA: -21 + d100: +39 - -5 == +33
Warded off!
You are unaffected.

Things that fuck me up:
Adepts that weaponfire
Seers and Heralds that dispel
Area webs
Janissaries and Griffins that RT lock (this is usually survivable by itself, but it leads to weaponfire and dispelling most of the time)

Oh, and this:

An Ithzir janissary swings a gleaming crystal-edged broadsword at you!
AS: +418 vs DS: +408 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +74 = +102
... and hits for 1 point of damage!
Glancing blow to your back.
That could have been worse.

** An Ithzir janissary's crystal-edged broadsword emits a searing bolt of lightning! **

... 60 points of damage!
Electric shock causes a strong enough convulsion to snap your neck.

Glad I invested in that lightning-resistant helm! :)

[JustDan]

I'm curious how much AS/DS/TD gain or loss you might see if you bumped the spells up to 430 instead of stopping at 414 and dropping the dodge down as much as necessary to achieve that.

-Richard.

I really REALLY wanted 120, and 3x dodge. Those two things were the basis of the whole build, as I wanted the TD and DS to stand out in the open (which is where I seemed to always end up anyway). I tried to get to 430 AND 120, but the TP cost was sick. 50 spells at level 93 was just totally not reasonable, though I don't remember specifics (except that I dropped the idea pretty fast).


Dropping from a full 3x dodge to 2x dodge only nets you about 10-12 spell ranks. 425 is pretty awesome but probably not worth that much.

I'm pretty intrigued with the idea of 425/430... might well go for that post-cap instead of picking at first. More AS/DS is probably worth it for me when weighed against more time at the town locksmith. Plus then I have an excuse for putting off LFM!

[jpatter123]

thanks for taking the time.

[Kitsun]

Yeah, I went for 425 with my rogue as one of my early post-cap goals. It is sexy but until your DS is enough to fend off scouts with crystal weapons, it is kinda a long drag to nab 11 spells.

One of the things to make it feel a little easier is to fill out some other skills and when you have enough points to fixskill into 425 and then start rebuilding up the little stuff again.

[DaCapn]

By the way, ambush/perception training caps at (level+1)*2. So at level 94, your ranged AS caps with 190 ambush/perception ranks.

[JustDan]

By the way, ambush/perception training caps at (level+1)*2. So at level 94, your ranged AS caps with 190 ambush/perception ranks.

Uh.... really? I had never heard that before. I read through Nuadjha's post a few times, and thought more of each was better, culminating in 3x perception/2x ambush. Not that I'm doubting you, that's just the first I've heard of it... guess I can stop overtraining perception past 2x!

[DaCapn]

Uh.... really? I had never heard that before. I read through Nuadjha's post a few times, and thought more of each was better, culminating in 3x perception/2x ambush. Not that I'm doubting you, that's just the first I've heard of it... guess I can stop overtraining perception past 2x!
Well overtraining can be useful for aiming but yeah, it caps at (level+1)*2 for the AS bonus. Also, I'm pretty sure that ambush enhancives will grant more AS if you're capped. But at 4:1, it's hardly worth it. Sample calculation:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?40220-Cman-Archery&p=893326#post893326
The 1x/3x ambush/perception claim in that post is incorrect (EDIT: that is, ambush and perception each cap at 2x, rather than 4x split two ways).

It's only a few TPs, though. In times when I wasn't pressed for TPs, I trained the extra ranks just for OCD's sake.

[jpatter123]

I decided to unlocker my level 80(some reason I thought he was 90) rogue today and I got some decisions to make and you've got me thinking. One thing I never wanted to do was drop the ability to pick boxes, but looking at the diff in your build and my build the only spell i'd not be able to wear is 120(can wear 401,406,414,101,107,103 now without bursting) and a few more ranks I could add 601, 503 all while maintaining a DF redux of close in the high 40's all while still keeping 3x hide and near 3x lockpicking.
I'm thinking of sticking with my build and dropping pick pocketing and go to full plate. Obviously I'm a giant, but I'm trying to figure out the great disparity in our DS and TD. Off the top of my head I think the bow he is holding now is 5x and I don't remember what his hauberk is(I want to say 7x, but it's been so long). Appreciate any input.

>encumb
You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.

gestures at you.(sleep)
CS: +440 - TD: +295 + CvA: -9 + d100: +15 - -5 == +156
Warding failed!
Your mind goes completely blank.


gestures at you. (spell 102)
CS: +159 - TD: +290 + CvA: -9 + d100: +90 - +5 == -55
Warded off!

swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +10 vs DS: +368 with AvD: -7 + d100 roll: +37 = -328
A clean miss.

>;magic

- Minor Spirit:
101: Spirit Warding I - 1:15:46
103: Spirit Defense - 0:26:25
107: Spirit Warding II - 2:36:37

- Minor Elemental:
401: Elemental Defense I - 3:15:01
406: Elemental Defense II - 3:15:09
414: Elemental Defense III - 3:35:22

- Major Elemental:
503: Thurfel's Ward - 3:27:24
509: Strength - 3:27:41

- Ranger:
601: Natural Colors - 3:34:22

- Wizard:
911: Mass Blur - 3:36:15

- Council of Light:
9903: Sign of Warding - 0:03:46
9904: Sign of Striking - 0:03:46
9907: Sign of Defending - 0:03:46
9908: Sign of Smiting - 0:03:46
9912: Sign of Swords - 0:03:46
9913: Sign of Shields - 0:03:46

Race: Giantman Profession: Rogue (shown as: Bounty Hunter)
Gender: Male Age: 106 Expr: 5475346 Level: 80
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 100 (40)
Constitution (CON): 89 (29) ... 89 (29)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Discipline (DIS): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Aura (AUR): 87 (13) ... 87 (13)
Logic (LOG): 81 (10) ... 81 (10)
Intuition (INT): 88 (19) ... 88 (19)
Wisdom (WIS): 73 (11) ... 73 (11)
Influence (INF): 62 (11) ... 62 (11)

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 181 81
Ranged Weapons.....................| 262 162
Ambush.............................| 262 162
Physical Fitness...................| 181 81
Dodging............................| 262 162
Arcane Symbols.....................| 122 31
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Disarming Traps....................| 322 222
Picking Locks......................| 327 227
Stalking and Hiding................| 327 227
Perception.........................| 262 162
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30
Pickpocketing......................| 195 95

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4

[Jeril]

The DS I'd say is that he is 3x dodge and you are only 2x, TD likely comes from the level difference, which would give him about 45(+3 per level), 120, and you don't seem to be using sign of dissipation or whatever that helps your TD, which would be another +15.

[JustDan]

I decided to unlocker my level 80(some reason I thought he was 90) rogue today and I got some decisions to make and you've got me thinking. One thing I never wanted to do was drop the ability to pick boxes, but looking at the diff in your build and my build the only spell i'd not be able to wear is 120(can wear 401,406,414,101,107,103 now without bursting) and a few more ranks I could add 601, 503 all while maintaining a DF redux of close in the high 40's all while still keeping 3x hide and near 3x lockpicking.
I'm thinking of sticking with my build and dropping pick pocketing and go to full plate. Obviously I'm a giant, but I'm trying to figure out the great disparity in our DS and TD. Off the top of my head I think the bow he is holding now is 5x and I don't remember what his hauberk is(I want to say 7x, but it's been so long). Appreciate any input.

>encumb
You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.

gestures at you.(sleep)
CS: +440 - TD: +295 + CvA: -9 + d100: +15 - -5 == +156
Warding failed!
Your mind goes completely blank.


gestures at you. (spell 102)
CS: +159 - TD: +290 + CvA: -9 + d100: +90 - +5 == -55
Warded off!

swings a closed fist at you!
AS: +10 vs DS: +368 with AvD: -7 + d100 roll: +37 = -328
A clean miss.

>;magic

- Minor Spirit:
101: Spirit Warding I - 1:15:46
103: Spirit Defense - 0:26:25
107: Spirit Warding II - 2:36:37

- Minor Elemental:
401: Elemental Defense I - 3:15:01
406: Elemental Defense II - 3:15:09
414: Elemental Defense III - 3:35:22

- Major Elemental:
503: Thurfel's Ward - 3:27:24
509: Strength - 3:27:41

- Ranger:
601: Natural Colors - 3:34:22

- Wizard:
911: Mass Blur - 3:36:15

- Council of Light:
9903: Sign of Warding - 0:03:46
9904: Sign of Striking - 0:03:46
9907: Sign of Defending - 0:03:46
9908: Sign of Smiting - 0:03:46
9912: Sign of Swords - 0:03:46
9913: Sign of Shields - 0:03:46

Race: Giantman Profession: Rogue (shown as: Bounty Hunter)
Gender: Male Age: 106 Expr: 5475346 Level: 80
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (40) ... 100 (40)
Constitution (CON): 89 (29) ... 89 (29)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Agility (AGI): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Discipline (DIS): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Aura (AUR): 87 (13) ... 87 (13)
Logic (LOG): 81 (10) ... 81 (10)
Intuition (INT): 88 (19) ... 88 (19)
Wisdom (WIS): 73 (11) ... 73 (11)
Influence (INF): 62 (11) ... 62 (11)

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers...................| 181 81
Ranged Weapons.....................| 262 162
Ambush.............................| 262 162
Physical Fitness...................| 181 81
Dodging............................| 262 162
Arcane Symbols.....................| 122 31
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 25 5
Disarming Traps....................| 322 222
Picking Locks......................| 327 227
Stalking and Hiding................| 327 227
Perception.........................| 262 162
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 120 30
Pickpocketing......................| 195 95

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4

Jeril's right (*gasp*). 3x dodge, plus 120, plus levels for the lion's share of the TD and DS differences.

Like I've said, for me it was all about survivability. I wanted to pretty much max my defensive skills first, even at the expense of other things. I can't say 100% without running the numbers, but I'm pretty sure there just aren't enough TPs to get 2.5x hiding, 2.5x picking, 2.5x disarm, spells to 120, full plate, and 3x dodge, especially at level 80. I had to make the choice to let go of hiding (which I loved from an RP-style viewpoint, but at 3x didn't hold up in OTF or the Rift) and lockpicking (sacrificing a LOT of damn coins to the town locksmith) to get what was important to me. I even skipped over getting 425 and 430 just so I could get the TD booster spells (120 in particular). Looks like you've made the choice to go the other way, which is fine, but it's basically the build I started off with (that was getting me pasted pretty regularly, and which spawned this whole thread). Not saying it's not doable, but it's basically the opposite of what I did.

These days I die exclusively from crystal flaring weapons in OTF, or massive RT lock from bandits who plink away for 12 damage per hit until I die from blood loss. I'm closing in on level 95, and don't see me ever getting hiding back. I miss lockpicking, but it's been well worth the sacrifice from my point of view. I live through, and profit from, 95% of my hunts. I'm flying through bounties (70k BPs in the last couple of days) and levels, which is exactly what I wanted to accomplish. I don't have the hiding to play with pickpocketing or a lot of the guild skills, and I don't have lockpicking to work on LFM, but I wanted to straight grind to cap, then re-prioritize.

[RSR]

I even skipped over getting 425 and 430 just so I could get the TD booster spells (120 in particular).

You do realize that 430 is a TD boosting spell also right? Elemental TD specifically which would help you against the weapon fire that you said was causing you problems.

-Richard.

[JustDan]

You do realize that 430 is a TD boosting spell also right? Elemental TD specifically which would help you against the weapon fire that you said was causing you problems.

-Richard.

I do indeed, but was more worried about spiritual TD initially. Seers and Initiates have a full arsenal of immobilizing spells, and if I'm standing still, I'm dead. Weapon fire can be very annoying, but as long as I'm not in griffin-induced RT lock, it's pretty tame most of the time. I see it hit, I disk or drop my bow, pull out my spare bow and go to work.

[jpatter123]

I had to make the choice to let go of hiding (which I loved from an RP-style viewpoint, but at 3x didn't hold up in OTF or the Rift) and lockpicking (sacrificing a LOT of damn coins to the town locksmith) to get what was important to me. .

I know you are right about hiding. Gremlocks can pull me even with level 5 shadow mastery running. And even if they don't the one arrow shot that pulls me out of hiding is enough to do me in.

[JustDan]

I know you are right about hiding. Gremlocks can pull me even with level 5 shadow mastery running. And even if they don't the one arrow shot that pulls me out of hiding is enough to do me in.

Another thing to consider (old advice from Gib and others): If you've progressed in LFM far enough to make wedges, then just dump all your lockpicking (for now), but keep your disarm traps. Disarm them, wedge them, and use the lockpicking TPs elsewhere. Nice little way to free up some TPs for a time, then circle back around later and pick them back up.

[jpatter123]

I actually was thinking about that this morning. I'm only 18 ranks in LM and I'm not using this char as my main so I may just finish up LM and then fixskill and drop all picking. It's actually far cheaper to make wedges than it is fix the lockpicks anyway. I'll drop lockpicking and put that into dodge and drop pick pocketing and put it into armor. See where that takes me. I can still learn in the tower for the next 8 levels. It's slow learning, but it's easy.

Again dan thanks. Seems to help to talk my way through this stuff. And I can live with dropping hiding/stalking.. just can't live with dropping the ability to open boxes.

[BriarFox]

The AS boost from perception is capped at 2x, but the AS boost from ambush is not. Expensive as hell, though.

[JustDan]

The AS boost from perception is capped at 2x, but the AS boost from ambush is not. Expensive as hell, though.

So, hypothetically, a rogue with "max" self-generated ranged AS (without using scrolls) would have some combo of a 10x weapon (5x bow/5x arrows or something along those lines), 140 DEX (obviously enhanced), 252 Ambush (enhanced), 202 Perception, 17 ranks of MnS, 75 ranks of MnE, COL Signs and....?

{I realize this is a bit off-topic, but I'm more than a little curious at this point, and am trying to set long-term goals}

[jpatter123]

the 75 ranks of MNE and the extra 100 ranks of ambush would equal to +75 AS, right briar? Which I am assuming equals to about a +550-570 ish bow AS at cap correct? (dependent on race dex bonus)

[BriarFox]

Not sure what the 425 would get you (hey, I play a ranger), but the extra 52 ranks of enhanced ambush would net you 13 AS.

[jpatter123]

well I feel like I'm hijacking your thread now, but I figured out if I drop pick locks,hiding and picking pockets. I can go 3x dodge, get spells to 414 and 103 and still wear 22 mana for spell burst which is 107. 601, 509, 508(imbed), and maybe 202 . I'm not sure how my spirit TD will hold up, but the build seems more viable than what I got now and I won't be dropping disarm traps at all so I can still open all my own boxes. I think only 1 spell every 4 levels should keep my DF redux pretty intact too.

I see you dropped CMans a little bit. Were you able to get all the stuff you needed with 77 ranks? If so I could drop those a few ranks from the 81 I have now and maybe get the few extra ranks in armor to get to plate.

[jpatter123]

Not sure what the 425 would get you (hey, I play a ranger), but the extra 52 ranks of enhanced ambush would net you 13 AS.

425 at 75 ranks of MnE caps at +50 AS bonus (+25 for the spell and +1 AS for every 2 ranks post 25 capping at 75 rank)

[Kitsun]

well I feel like I'm hijacking your thread now, but I figured out if I drop pick locks,hiding and picking pockets. I can go 3x dodge, get spells to 414 and 103 and still wear 22 mana for spell burst which is 107. 601, 509, 508(imbed), and maybe 202 . I'm not sure how my spirit TD will hold up, but the build seems more viable than what I got now and I won't be dropping disarm traps at all so I can still open all my own boxes. I think only 1 spell every 4 levels should keep my DF redux pretty intact too.

I see you dropped CMans a little bit. Were you able to get all the stuff you needed with 77 ranks? If so I could drop those a few ranks from the 81 I have now and maybe get the few extra ranks in armor to get to plate.

Are you actually having trouble right now in the Tower? I'd hold off on swaps until you get to that point. It would give you more points to fiddle with when you decide to pull the trigger. Hiding works perfect until you're in OTF.

[JustDan]

I see you dropped CMans a little bit. Were you able to get all the stuff you needed with 77 ranks? If so I could drop those a few ranks from the 81 I have now and maybe get the few extra ranks in armor to get to plate.

My CM training was similar to my overall training, in that I got ranks in things I wanted to be good at defending against. I came up a bit short (would like to finish off Disarm), but got 5 ranks in feint, and have found it to be pretty damn useful as both defense and offense. I picked up 1 rank recently of WSPEC1 just because... well, just because.


Deron, your Combat Maneuver training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Disarm Weapon disarm 3
Feint feint 5
Specialization I wspec1 1
Combat Mobility mobility 2
Surge of Strength surge 4

Available Combat Maneuver Training Points: 1
Total Points converted during your current 30-day unlearning cycle: 91
Number of days remaining in your current 30-day unlearning cycle: 23 days

[JustDan]

Are you actually having trouble right now in the Tower? I'd hold off on swaps until you get to that point. It would give you more points to fiddle with when you decide to pull the trigger. Hiding works perfect until you're in OTF.

Also consider the bowels. I hunted there with a sniper build relatively successfully, and the loot was pretty damn good. You get the occasional insta-death, but that gets you used to it for when you graduate to OTF (or wherever you end up).

[jpatter123]

Are you actually having trouble right now in the Tower?.

No the tower is ridiculously easy. The only problem I have is shrickens cause I don't have any of my cleric accounts turned on to get blesses and every once in a while I'll get major ewaved from one, but even that doesn't result in death. I'm am migrating picking pockets right now, but going to wait on the actual fix skill till later.


Also consider the bowels. I hunted there with a sniper build relatively successfully, and the loot was pretty damn good. You get the occasional insta-death, but that gets you used to it for when you graduate to OTF (or wherever you end up).

Only problem is the Ranger I am playing as my main right now is in Illistim. Once he gets up to being able to hunt Thanatoph or stone valley, I may see how the rogue does in the bowels. The ranger is less than 3 months old and is almost level 40 so it shouldn't be too much longer.

[Scintillion]

Also consider the bowels. I hunted there with a sniper build relatively successfully, and the loot was pretty damn good. You get the occasional insta-death, but that gets you used to it for when you graduate to OTF (or wherever you end up).

So let me get this right. If your stat placement/race selection/training allows you to hunt and only die instantly once in awhile then that = win?

[DaCapn]

So let me get this right. If your stat placement/race selection/training allows you to hunt and only die instantly once in awhile then that = win?
Yes, because those sort of deaths are possible for all stat/race/training combinations. Small wonder people refer to them as "unavoidable." They're usually composed of maneuvers and warding spells.

If you're interested in learning more, you may be curious how the racial bonuses break down (halflings are probably the best all-around):
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Racial_modifiers_%28saved_post%29
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/New_Races_-_Maneuver_Bonus_%28saved_post%29

[Scintillion]

Yes, because those sort of deaths are possible for all stat/race/training combinations. Small wonder people refer to them as "unavoidable." They're usually composed of maneuvers and warding spells.

If you're interested in learning more, you may be curious how the racial bonuses break down (halflings are probably the best all-around):
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Racial_modifiers_%28saved_post%29
http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/New_Races_-_Maneuver_Bonus_%28saved_post%29

So because the game has been made easy enough that any trainwrecked character can make it to level 100, instead of trying to minimize the number of attacks you face in the first place by tripling in hiding (because smart hunters know not to jump out when there's 300 creatures in the room), negating many physical attacks by doubling in CM, and going with the one race that can give you the most amount of hitpoints to survive those attacks = might as well go with a halfling in robes sniping from the open so you have maximum exposure and have to survive every single attack from every creature in the room?
(Spare me the exceptions for those creatures that pull you out of hiding - they are easily avoided/killed.)

[JustDan]

So because the game has been made easy enough that any trainwrecked character can make it to level 100, instead of trying to minimize the number of attacks you face in the first place by tripling in hiding (because smart hunters know not to jump out when there's 300 creatures in the room), negating many physical attacks by doubling in CM, and going with the one race that can give you the most amount of hitpoints to survive those attacks = might as well go with a halfling in robes sniping from the open so you have maximum exposure and have to survive every single attack from every creature in the room?
(Spare me the exceptions for those creatures that pull you out of hiding - they are easily avoided/killed.)

I'm... confused. And I might be feeding the troll here, but it seems like you're confused, as well. My point was, initially, that at the level I was trained to (93), I was unable to hunt effectively using the build I had at that point. Hiding/sniping was just impossible to do on a regular basis. Rift Crawlers, War Griffins, and the Undead in the Rift and in Nelemar were all able to yank me out of hiding and attack all in one act, despite me being tripled, with enhancives, perfect stats, and attempting to "pick my battles". Your advice for someone in this situation is to... reroll into a giantman (who is statistically worse at hiding/sniping, I believe), and avoid/kill the crawlers, griffins and undead? This seems like an incredibly uninformed solution.

At or near cap, hiding starts to deteriorate as a hunting tool, in my opinion. The previously listed creatures all wreck the whole premise with frightening ease and frequency. That's not even including falling out of hiding randomly when attempting a shot, or being forced to show yourself to retrieve arrows.

My whole premise (and reason for starting this thread) is that I wanted to live through more battles than I was at that point. I researched it, talked to plenty of people, bought a potion for backup, and gave it a whirl. I die SO much less than I did then, and all my deaths are one that the build you're espousing would also perish to (in fact, with my TD, I'd imagine I live through quite a few scenarios where your build would be a wet smear). I'm thrilled with the new approach, and glad to leave behind the aggravation of attempting to snipe.

[Scintillion]

I'm... confused. And I might be feeding the troll here, but it seems like you're confused, as well. My point was, initially, that at the level I was trained to (93), I was unable to hunt effectively using the build I had at that point. Hiding/sniping was just impossible to do on a regular basis. Rift Crawlers, War Griffins, and the Undead in the Rift and in Nelemar were all able to yank me out of hiding and attack all in one act, despite me being tripled, with enhancives, perfect stats, and attempting to "pick my battles". Your advice for someone in this situation is to... reroll into a giantman (who is statistically worse at hiding/sniping, I believe), and avoid/kill the crawlers, griffins and undead? This seems like an incredibly uninformed solution.

At or near cap, hiding starts to deteriorate as a hunting tool, in my opinion. The previously listed creatures all wreck the whole premise with frightening ease and frequency. That's not even including falling out of hiding randomly when attempting a shot, or being forced to show yourself to retrieve arrows.

My whole premise (and reason for starting this thread) is that I wanted to live through more battles than I was at that point. I researched it, talked to plenty of people, bought a potion for backup, and gave it a whirl. I die SO much less than I did then, and all my deaths are one that the build you're espousing would also perish to (in fact, with my TD, I'd imagine I live through quite a few scenarios where your build would be a wet smear). I'm thrilled with the new approach, and glad to leave behind the aggravation of attempting to snipe.

Your entire character is flawed starting with your race selection - by far the most important aspect of character creation. The inherent benefits of a giantman far outweigh any penalties associated with them with regard to long term survivability. If planning long term, I'd prefer to reroll and start from scratch than waste my time on a character that will always be inferior no matter what. I do not suggest a "hiding and sniping" build. My suggestion is for you to reroll into a giantman and place your stats for full optimization (yielding the highest overall stat totals and training points to work out of) and to max out all combat related skills (3x hiding, 2x cm, 2x shield, 2x armor, 2x OHE/OHB, etc). A strong argument could also be made for half-krolvin. The rest of the races shouldn't even be considered except for role-playing reasons and with the understanding that they will be MUCH weaker than those 2.

You allege that your reason for starting the thread was that you wanted a character that died less than the inferior one you had/have now. I told you how to do that. Just because you don't die every single time you hunt doesn't mean your character is good. You should be able to go from level 0-100 and die less than 10 times from normal hunting. Back when I completed annihilated the entire game (before stat and training reallocation) no one had optimized stats or perfect training for their rogue other than me. I was disappointed when persons that didn't have to go through 100+ levels of playing with optimized stats were given the ability to reallocate them. I see now that even though everyone is given unlimited opportunities to create a good character they still fail just as miserably as ever (probably worse).

Just because hiding isn't as effective on certain creatures or areas doesn't mean you don't train in it. Hiding has never been as effective in places like the Lower Eye, Rift, OTF, etc. as it is in other places - but it can still be utilized quite effectively if you use common sense and train properly. TD has always been an issue for rogues. I would suggest training up to possibly 107 and 406 post cap. The amount of deaths you will have with a giantman rogue wearing full plate with redux, fully trained in shield/OHE, CM, etc. far negates the benefits of any other race selection/training path. And before you tell me how awesome archery is, and how much more damage you do with it remember this: The AS of a corpse ain't much. Survivability is the key to long term viability. In other words, it's not how hard you can hit, it's how hard you can get hit.

[Warriorbird]

Your entire character is flawed starting with your race selection - by far the most important aspect of character creation. The inherent benefits of a giantman far outweigh any penalties associated with them with regard to long term survivability. If planning long term, I'd prefer to reroll and start from scratch than waste my time on a character that will always be inferior no matter what. I do not suggest a "hiding and sniping" build. My suggestion is for you to reroll into a giantman and place your stats for full optimization (yielding the highest overall stat totals and training points to work out of) and to max out all combat related skills (3x hiding, 2x cm, 2x shield, 2x armor, 2x OHE/OHB, etc). A strong argument could also be made for half-krolvin. The rest of the races shouldn't even be considered except for role-playing reasons and with the understanding that they will be MUCH weaker than those 2.

You allege that your reason for starting the thread was that you wanted a character that died less than the inferior one you had/have now. I told you how to do that. Just because you don't die every single time you hunt doesn't mean your character is good. You should be able to go from level 0-100 and die less than 10 times from normal hunting. Back when I completed annihilated the entire game (before stat and training reallocation) no one had optimized stats or perfect training for their rogue other than me. I was disappointed when persons that didn't have to go through 100+ levels of playing with optimized stats were given the ability to reallocate them. I see now that even though everyone is given unlimited opportunities to create a good character they still fail just as miserably as ever (probably worse).

Just because hiding isn't as effective on certain creatures or areas doesn't mean you don't train in it. Hiding has never been as effective in places like the Lower Eye, Rift, OTF, etc. as it is in other places - but it can still be utilized quite effectively if you use common sense and train properly. TD has always been an issue for rogues. I would suggest training up to possibly 107 and 406 post cap. The amount of deaths you will have with a giantman rogue wearing full plate with redux, fully trained in shield/OHE, CM, etc. far negates the benefits of any other race selection/training path. And before you tell me how awesome archery is, and how much more damage you do with it remember this: The AS of a corpse ain't much. Survivability is the key to long term viability. In other words, it's not how hard you can hit, it's how hard you can get hit.

Archery is defensively superior and leads to less time exposed.

[Kitsun]

Despite writing a longer post, the premise behind the idea is still pretty much dumb as fuck.

Setting stats for growth and trying to train in max combat skills does not work. The points do not exist. It is a non-starter.

The beauty of the new system is that you can dump a broken build into something that works for a range where you are having trouble. The fact that you can not recognize that means you are a complete fucking idiot.

[Scintillion]

Archery is defensively superior and leads to less time exposed.

When you train in zero ranks of hiding you're exposed all the time.

Also, training the way I suggested will aid with not only DS but also with avoiding maneuver based attacks and with the ability to survive when you eventually get hit.

[Scintillion]

Despite writing a longer post, the premise behind the idea is still pretty much dumb as fuck.

Setting stats for growth and trying to train in max combat skills does not work. The points do not exist. It is a non-starter.

The beauty of the new system is that you can dump a broken build into something that works for a range where you are having trouble. The fact that you can not recognize that means you are a complete fucking idiot.

I can see how you would consider the premise of building a superior character from all aspects dumb.

When I destroyed Gemstone and passed up all the other rogues (and everyone else) like they were standing still to the point to where they had to make changes to the entire game I was told that my fully optimized stats and perfect training wouldn't work either.

I can see how a system that allows for any race/stat selection/training plan to make it to level 100 would be appealing to you.

It would require some effort to reroll an inherently defective and inferior character and start over from scratch. If you are planning long term, you'll end up spending less time waiting to be rescued/spell-up/recover from death if you reroll and start over now. The longer you wait, the more time you waste on a character that will never be as good as it could be no matter what you do.

[Warriorbird]

When you train in zero ranks of hiding you're exposed all the time.

Also, training the way I suggested will aid with not only DS but also with avoiding maneuver based attacks and with the ability to survive when you eventually get hit.

This was all fine and good until the vast series of hiding changes. Most maneuver avoidance has little to nothing to do with your outdated plan.

In modern times, for people of means, we use fixstats and fixskills.

...but do go off half cocked.

[Scintillion]

This was all fine and good until the vast series of hiding changes. Most maneuver avoidance has little to nothing to do with your outdated plan.

In modern times, for people of means, we use fixstats and fixskills.

...but do go off half cocked.


Looks like there have been some changes...

I can see how it would make sense to you not to train in hiding considering it is apparently now changed and doesn't help with anything anymore.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#hide: Stalk & Hide
Training in this skill allows you to hide and to follow another while remaining hidden. Success is determined by your own skill at Stalking and Hiding and the Perception skill of your quarry. This skill is often combined with the Ambush skill.

Under the heading "Combat Skills"

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#ambush: Ambush
This is the ability to make a very precise attack, employing the element of surprise. To use your ambush skill, you must approach your target undetected and be able to strike before the quarry can react to defend or strike back. You first hide, and then, while hidden, make your attack. Enhanced skill in Ambush then modifies your attack by increasing the amount of damage once you have succeeded in hitting the target.

I can also see how it makes sense to you that training in combat maneuvers has little to nothing to do with avoiding maneuvers.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#combatmaneuvers: Combat Maneuvers
Combat maneuvers training is a rather broad skill that covers many of the subtle "tricks of the trade" for melee combat. The more obvious benefits of the skill are the bonuses to attack and defense it provides. The bonus is dependant upon the stance you are in. When in more offensive stances it will help you hit harder, while in more defensive stances it will help you defend better compared to someone without it. The subtle aspects of the skill are found when trying to dodge special "maneuver" type attacks that one might face. Combat maneuvers skill figures into some but not all of these situations.

It does appear that there are even more reasons to be fully trained in combat maneuvers for rogues (makes sense that less people are training in it as much now)...

Maybe play.net should update these skills (hiding, combat maneuvers, etc.) to read "Completely worthless skill - doesn't do anything and don't train in it, even though you can." I can see how it makes sense to you to have a game where there are skills that do nothing and don't help with anything for the characters that were designed to use them the most. I can also see how it makes sense to you to avoid training in skills which aid in combat when the goal is to be better at hunting. (I'm sure that they are in the process of writing up those new skill descriptions as we speak.)

Maybe one of these days one of those persons of means will use fixstats and fixskills and come up with stat placement and training that doesn't lead to "unavoidable insta-death."

Would be a good idea to select a superior race also (Giantman, Half-Krolvin) - as far as I know they haven't come out with a potion that allows you to change the most important aspect of character creation. For this, I would suggest rerolling.

[Kitsun]

I can see how you would consider the premise of building a superior character from all aspects dumb.


You are dumb because you can not add properly.

Training a rogue in all combat skills maxed is like 85/40 TPs per level. Something you can not do while level zero.

You are giving out a post-cap plan for pre-capped characters. Level 0 < Level 100.

[Scintillion]

You are dumb because you can not add properly.

Training a rogue in all combat skills maxed is like 85/40 TPs per level. Something you can not do while level zero.

You are giving out a post-cap plan for pre-capped characters. Level 0 < Level 100.

I suppose I should have clarified. "Maxing all combat skills" means to max out the most important skills, and prioritize after that. This is possible to do from level 0.

You'll want to start at level 0 and max out all of the most important combat skills first (3x hiding, 2x CM, 2x shield, 2x ambush, 2x OHE/OHB, etc.) and add as many more in as possible as points become available. (armor, PT, multi-opps, dodging, etc.).

Doing this you won't be able to train in anything else other than combat related skills, and just enough tertiary skills to get by (climbing, swimming, etc.). You'll probably want to pick up 107 and 406 before hitting the highest level hunting areas. Post-cap you'll want to dump the rest of your points into anything combat related that isn't fully trained and keep training until literally all combat skills are maxed out.

Assuming proper race selection (Giant, Half-Krolvin), stat placement (fully optimized, yielding the highest stat totals possible) this will create a rogue that is very effective at hunting and more importantly, very hardy and tough to kill. If you recall, the original poster wanted a character which died less while hunting. This build would lead to the least hunting deaths possible for a rogue (very high hitpoints, solid redux, excellent at avoiding maneuver based attacks, high DS, the ability to wear heavy armor and to hunt in various stances). The weakness for any square which is inherent with the class is warding based spells, which is why I suggest picking up 406 and 107. The extra TD and/or AS/DS you get from training in more spells isn't worth trading things like redux and ability to avoid maneuver based attacks for if your plan is to die less often. You will also want to learn and utilize the "sweep" and "stun maneuvers" skills - as these are both VERY useful in high level hunting areas, especially those where hiding can be an issue.

DISCLAIMER: This training plan is assuming NO outside assistance or "super" gear. (Literally anyone can survive with those). :)

[Warriorbird]

Looks like there have been some changes...

I can see how it would make sense to you not to train in hiding considering it is apparently now changed and doesn't help with anything anymore.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#hide: Stalk & Hide
Training in this skill allows you to hide and to follow another while remaining hidden. Success is determined by your own skill at Stalking and Hiding and the Perception skill of your quarry. This skill is often combined with the Ambush skill.

Under the heading "Combat Skills"

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#ambush: Ambush
This is the ability to make a very precise attack, employing the element of surprise. To use your ambush skill, you must approach your target undetected and be able to strike before the quarry can react to defend or strike back. You first hide, and then, while hidden, make your attack. Enhanced skill in Ambush then modifies your attack by increasing the amount of damage once you have succeeded in hitting the target.

I can also see how it makes sense to you that training in combat maneuvers has little to nothing to do with avoiding maneuvers.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#combatmaneuvers: Combat Maneuvers
Combat maneuvers training is a rather broad skill that covers many of the subtle "tricks of the trade" for melee combat. The more obvious benefits of the skill are the bonuses to attack and defense it provides. The bonus is dependant upon the stance you are in. When in more offensive stances it will help you hit harder, while in more defensive stances it will help you defend better compared to someone without it. The subtle aspects of the skill are found when trying to dodge special "maneuver" type attacks that one might face. Combat maneuvers skill figures into some but not all of these situations.

It does appear that there are even more reasons to be fully trained in combat maneuvers for rogues (makes sense that less people are training in it as much now)...

Maybe play.net should update these skills (hiding, combat maneuvers, etc.) to read "Completely worthless skill - doesn't do anything and don't train in it, even though you can." I can see how it makes sense to you to have a game where there are skills that do nothing and don't help with anything for the characters that were designed to use them the most. I can also see how it makes sense to you to avoid training in skills which aid in combat when the goal is to be better at hunting. (I'm sure that they are in the process of writing up those new skill descriptions as we speak.)

Maybe one of these days one of those persons of means will use fixstats and fixskills and come up with stat placement and training that doesn't lead to "unavoidable insta-death."

Would be a good idea to select a superior race also (Giantman, Half-Krolvin) - as far as I know they haven't come out with a potion that allows you to change the most important aspect of character creation. For this, I would suggest rerolling.

Once, in a time that was the 1990s, all of the stuff on the website was even accurate. But go on with your bad self.

[JustDan]

I suppose I should have clarified. "Maxing all combat skills" means to max out the most important skills, and prioritize after that. This is possible to do from level 0.

You'll want to start at level 0 and max out all of the most important combat skills first (3x hiding, 2x CM, 2x shield, 2x ambush, 2x OHE/OHB, etc.) and add as many more in as possible as points become available. (armor, PT, multi-opps, dodging, etc.).

Doing this you won't be able to train in anything else other than combat related skills, and just enough tertiary skills to get by (climbing, swimming, etc.). You'll probably want to pick up 107 and 406 before hitting the highest level hunting areas. Post-cap you'll want to dump the rest of your points into anything combat related that isn't fully trained and keep training until literally all combat skills are maxed out.

Assuming proper race selection (Giant, Half-Krolvin), stat placement (fully optimized, yielding the highest stat totals possible) this will create a rogue that is very effective at hunting and more importantly, very hardy and tough to kill. If you recall, the original poster wanted a character which died less while hunting. This build would lead to the least hunting deaths possible for a rogue (very high hitpoints, solid redux, excellent at avoiding maneuver based attacks, high DS, the ability to wear heavy armor and to hunt in various stances). The weakness for any square which is inherent with the class is warding based spells, which is why I suggest picking up 406 and 107. The extra TD and/or AS/DS you get from training in more spells isn't worth trading things like redux and ability to avoid maneuver based attacks for if your plan is to die less often. You will also want to learn and utilize the "sweep" and "stun maneuvers" skills - as these are both VERY useful in high level hunting areas, especially those where hiding can be an issue.

DISCLAIMER: This training plan is assuming NO outside assistance or "super" gear. (Literally anyone can survive with those). :)

I have no idea why I'm even doing this. Your mind is obviously made up, and you're displaying a remarkable amount of perserverence, but on the off chance that you're willing to entertain the idea that other people have knowledge and experience of value...

Your plan would die, often, at or near cap. I was playing an Elf, almost exactly in line with your plan. Archery is even better, if I'm reading your premise correctly, as there's a decent chance of never being exposed when making an attack. The only thing that I was doing "wrong" was not being a giantman. My stats were perfect, I was hunting "smart", and I was using both "sweep" and "stun maneuvers" (loved the way you quoted those like we wouldn't be aware of their existence). I even used "feint" and "haste imbeds".

{Hmmmm... maybe shorter words are needed}

There. Are. Things. At. Or. Near. Cap. Which. Will. Kill. Any. Race. Or. Build. Caught. In. The. Open. No. Matter. Their. Stats. Or. Skills. Or. Race.

I. Built. My. Guy. To. Live. Through. As. Many. Of. Those. As. Possible. Since. Hiding. Doesn't. Work. At. That. Level.

It's. Working. Great.

[Parkbandit]

When I destroyed Gemstone and passed up all the other rogues (and everyone else) like they were standing still to the point to where they had to make changes to the entire game I was told that my fully optimized stats and perfect training wouldn't work either.


Lulz. I guess you didn't hear that crb saved Gemstone from you destroying it.

Your self importance in a text game is hilarious.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/Scrubalin.jpg

[Scintillion]

Once, in a time that was the 1990s, all of the stuff on the website was even accurate. But go on with your bad self.

I'm sure you're correct. Still waiting on the new skill descriptions showing that those skills don't do anything. :)

[Scintillion]

I have no idea why I'm even doing this. Your mind is obviously made up, and you're displaying a remarkable amount of perserverence, but on the off chance that you're willing to entertain the idea that other people have knowledge and experience of value...

Your plan would die, often, at or near cap. I was playing an Elf, almost exactly in line with your plan. Archery is even better, if I'm reading your premise correctly, as there's a decent chance of never being exposed when making an attack. The only thing that I was doing "wrong" was not being a giantman. My stats were perfect, I was hunting "smart", and I was using both "sweep" and "stun maneuvers" (loved the way you quoted those like we wouldn't be aware of their existence). I even used "feint" and "haste imbeds".

{Hmmmm... maybe shorter words are needed}

There. Are. Things. At. Or. Near. Cap. Which. Will. Kill. Any. Race. Or. Build. Caught. In. The. Open. No. Matter. Their. Stats. Or. Skills. Or. Race.

I. Built. My. Guy. To. Live. Through. As. Many. Of. Those. As. Possible. Since. Hiding. Doesn't. Work. At. That. Level.

It's. Working. Great.


There's no way to compare a Giantman who hunts with OHE/OHB and a shield to an elf who uses archery. That's like comparing the stealth plane used in the US airforce to a paper boat made by a child. If you read carefully, you'll see where I said that race selection is by far the most important part of character creation. The inherent bonuses associated with choosing a superior race far outweigh any stat placement or training possible (regardless of profession). This is why I suggest you reroll rather than using fixstat or fixskills. The most important aspect of character creation is not trainable.

Dieing less than every single time you hunt doesn't mean your character is good. If it's acceptable for you to have a good chance of dieing every single time you hunt, then rock on. If you want a character that is viable long term, and will die a lot less often, I would suggest you reroll into a Giantman (or possibly Half-Krolvin) with fully optimized stats which follows my suggested training plan (not archery).

[Scintillion]

Lulz. I guess you didn't hear that crb saved Gemstone from you destroying it.

Your self importance in a text game is hilarious.

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e6/belike53/Scrubalin.jpg

Not sure what crb is, but I do know that before the age cap, gamewide stat and skill reallocations, Gemstone III being made into Gemstone IV, armor changes, and a host of others there were a total of 2 characters over level 100 with optimized stats, perfect training, and the ability to cast spells in heavy armor and who died less than 1 time per level hunting. Those were Scintillion and Malok.

[Warriorbird]

I'm sure you're correct. Still waiting on the new skill descriptions showing that those skills don't do anything. :)

You don't seem to actually want to know the skills that go into maneuver avoidance. Keep on rocking in the free world.

[AnticorRifling]

This of course is based on Scint's knowledge of current end game having played an archery rogue and a 1h/shield rogue in the current environment right?

[Warriorbird]

This of course is based on Scint's knowledge of current end game having played an archery rogue and a 1h/shield rogue in the current environment right?

Totally based on it. He knows his GS4!


Not sure what crb is, but I do know that before the age cap, gamewide stat reallocations, armor changes, and a host of others there was a total of 2 characters over level 100 with optimized stats, able to cast spells in heavy armor and who died less than 1 time per level hunting. Those were Scintillion and Malok.

This would be relevant if we were playing GS3.

[Scintillion]

You don't seem to actually want to know the skills that go into maneuver avoidance. Keep on rocking in the free world.

Like I said, I'm sure you're right. Makes sense that combat maneuvers doesn't aid in maneuver avoidance and is now a worthless skill to train in for those characters which were meant to use it the most. I'm sure that they will update those descriptions on the official website that shows what the skills do.

[Warriorbird]

Like I said, I'm sure you're right. Makes sense that combat maneuvers doesn't aid in maneuver avoidance and is now a worthless skill to train in for those characters which were meant to use it the most. I'm sure that they will update those descriptions on the official website that shows what the skills do.

Perception, Physical Fitness, and Dodge do more. You'd know this if you'd read the forums since the 1990s.

Simu sucks at updating their website. You should know this.

You are far more vulnerable using your build. In addition, back with the introduction of GS4, crit randomization came in. You might not be aware of that either.

CM is primarily useful for the maneuver list and basic AS these days.

[AnticorRifling]

Not sure what crb is, but I do know that before the age cap, gamewide stat and skill reallocations, Gemstone III being made into Gemstone IV, armor changes, and a host of others there were a total of 2 characters over level 100 with optimized stats, perfect training, and the ability to cast spells in heavy armor and who died less than 1 time per level hunting. Those were Scintillion and Malok.

Was it Malok or Malokii?

[Scintillion]

Perception, Physical Fitness, and Dodge do more. You'd know this if you'd read the forums since the 1990s.

Simu sucks at updating their website. You should know this.

You are far more vulnerable using your build. In addition, back with the introduction of GS4, crit randomization came in. You might not be aware of that either.

CM is primarily useful for the maneuver list and basic AS these days.

I'm sure when they updated the official website to show the combat maneuvers (CMAN) list they forgot to rewrite the description of combat maneuvers to show that it was now useless in avoiding maneuver based attacks. Makes sense.

[AnticorRifling]

That's what you're hinging on, really? You're smarter than that (I hope).

[Kitsun]

That's what you're hinging on, really? You're smarter than that (I hope).

He really isn't.

And not to call him a bold faced liar but does anyone actually remember this dude? I've heard of Malok/ii, Drizzdtdtdt, some Empath that was really high level, that other sorcerer that was really high all before the level cap was put into place but not this troll.

[AnticorRifling]

If I recall he was a rogue...power leveled...got banned or had some website or something? I don't remember much other than was a rogue, power leveled.

[audioserf]

MA'd with a wizard and abused old Haste 2 vs wasp nests to build shit tons of fame. Was extremely proud of being a 3x hiding, 2x CM sword/board rogue, because that had definitely never been done before. Threatened to beat someone up at Simucon. Ran Anti-GS3 website I think. More or less summarizes him.

[Androidpk]

So a clone of Tsin in other words.

[Warriorbird]

If I recall he was a rogue...power leveled...got banned or had some website or something? I don't remember much other than was a rogue, power leveled.

You forgot the self importance.

[audioserf]

I think he was Tsin before Tsin was Tsin.

[Warriorbird]

So a clone of Tsin in other words.

I'm sure they could've popped collars and drunk Natty and Franzia together, but no. Tsin actually knew something about modern mechanics.

[Parkbandit]

MA'd with a wizard and abused old Haste 2 vs wasp nests to build shit tons of fame. Was extremely proud of being a 3x hiding, 2x CM sword/board rogue, because that had definitely never been done before. Threatened to beat someone up at Simucon. Ran Anti-GS3 website I think. More or less summarizes him.

You forgot that he DESTROYED Gemstone.

The only thing I remember him doing was like you said.. MA hunting nests on Teras day and night to the point they changed nests.

Maybe he goofed and meant to post that he DESTROYED THE ABILITY TO GAIN EXP & FAME FROM WASP NESTS!!!!!!!!!

[JustDan]

And not to call him a bold faced liar but does anyone actually remember this dude? I've heard of Malok/ii, Drizzdtdtdt, some Empath that was really high level, that other sorcerer that was really high all before the level cap was put into place but not this troll.

Some googling brought up a controversy he was involved with, and apparently got banned over. A "GS Freaks" website, coupled with a fake apology website on geocities, and an awful lot of people calling him a lot of very not-nice things. Apparently he fucked over Kranar and some others, in some way or another. Basically not the most popular of guys, from what I can tell.

[BriarFox]

Just jumping back into this thread. Much LOL to the thought of OHB being more effective than ranged.

[Parkbandit]

To whom this may concern:
Thank you to all who showed interest in this issue. Thank you to those who supported, or totally hated me. Thank you to those who thought I was a good friend, and thank you to those who thought I was a lying, back-stabbing snake. I say thank you again for making the past 3 years an enjoyable experience...
Most of all, thank you to Eric Latham and David Whatley (GMs Solomon and Bardon) for turning out to be exactly what I expected you to be. Thank you for locking me out of GemStone III for good, as well as tracing the I.P. addresses of the several other accounts that I was controlling. Thank you for the deceit, the lies, and the most unprofessional customer service to date.
Thank you to God for getting me through the last 3 years of my life...probably the lowest point I've ever been at. Thank you for seeing me through the countless wasted hours in front of this computer screen playing a mindless and degenerating text-based game run by a group of unprofessional misfits who would most likely need written directions and further "staff review" to wipe their own noses.
Jesus, I wish I got paid minimum wage for the amount of hours and energy I put into that stupid game. I am now a firm believer of the old saying that "Everything happens for the best."
A final message for all of those who still play GemStone III: The website says it all. Read the logs, read the letters, read everything. I am through playing the role of the proverbial puppet. I understand that sometimes life gets rough...and let's face it, GemStone III is an escape for all of us in some way. It was for me, for 3 years. I don't need it anymore though...and this entire issue proves that fact. I haven't played GemStone III in weeks, and I feel better than I've felt in a long time. So take a good long look at yourself in the mirror, at your life...at everything. Ask yourself, "Is it worth it?" Don't let GemStone III become any more than a very casual and occasional hobby. Once it becomes more, you might as well sign over your soul to Simutronics, because they own you, like it or not. Don't ever let a fantasy become your reality. It won't always be there. Others have said that the "GemStone III Titanic is just waiting to be sunk." Maybe true, maybe not. I don't see it happening anytime in the near future. Not as long as there are players like I was. The fact remains however, that GemStone III will not be around forever. I seriously doubt that it will be around for the majority of anyone's lifetime who is reading this message. So laugh if you want, but consider what I've said. For those of you with children, I highly advise that you don't let them touch this game. Ever. Finally, good luck in life, and God bless. May you live every day to the fullest, and not in front of a computer screen.
It was a great ride while it lasted, but I'm tired of living my life in a fantasy. It's time to grow up and move on. I suggest you do the same, but it's your life. God bless.

http://www.geocities.com/lordscintillion/Apology.html
Sincere Regards,
~High Lord Scintillion Eckert and player thereof.

Lulz.

[Kitsun]

So he left out the best part of his way to beat Gemstone; dump thousands of hours into the game and then get perma-banned.

[audioserf]

lmao, that guy rules

*gets locked out*
"all praise due allah ya'll, praise be to God, I'm out"
*drops microphone, moonwalks out of thread*

[Liagala]

What kind of GS player types out the full "GemStone III" that many times (complete with capitalized S) in a couple paragraphs?

[Drakefang]

What kind of GS player types out the full "GemStone III" that many times (complete with capitalized S) in a couple paragraphs?

Based on what I read from the GS3 thread about Scint, one with a lot more IQ than the rest of us. About the only thing amusing about that linked thread was the GMs all posting stuff, especially Andraste.

[Warriorbird]

Scintillion gets his welcome to the open Internet. Poor guy. He wasn't ready for Web 2.0.

[Scintillion]

Just jumping back into this thread. Much LOL to the thought of OHB being more effective than ranged.

JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less often. For long term survivability and viability, OHB/shield is more effective than ranged.

[BriarFox]

JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less often. For long term survivability and viability, OHB/shield is more effective than ranged.

Why on earth would you assert this stuff without any experience with current mechanics? I'll pit my archer ranger against an equal-experience OHB rogue any day of week, either in PvP or PvE. I'd do the same with an archer rogue versus an OHB rogue. The only time that comparison falters is below levels 20-25.

[JustDan]

Why on earth would you assert this stuff without any experience with current mechanics? I'll pit my archer ranger against an equal-experience OHB rogue any day of week, either in PvP or PvE.

You're not a giantman or half-krolvin, therefore you shall lose. So speaketh the Scint.

[kookiegod]

Scintillion hurt so many people, one of the biggest *@**@*! ever to have walked Elanthia, let alone God's great Earth.

[Scintillion]

Why on earth would you assert this stuff without any experience with current mechanics? I'll pit my archer ranger against an equal-experience OHB rogue any day of week, either in PvP or PvE. I'd do the same with an archer rogue versus an OHB rogue. The only time that comparison falters is below levels 20-25.

From what I understood, this thread was about how to create a rogue that died less often, not a comparison between a ranger who uses archery and a OHB rogue.

The only way to do a fair comparison would be to take a level 100 rogue with the proper race selection and stat placement trained the way I suggest, against a level 100 rogue trained any other way and give them both equal gear (let's say base 4x gear) and no outside spell help and see which one dies less often hunting. I would also bet that the former would be more effective in PvP, although that is a different topic.

[Scintillion]

You're not a giantman or half-krolvin, therefore you shall lose.

First true statement in this thread by anyone other than me.

[Parkbandit]

Scintillion hurt so many people, one of the biggest *@**@*! ever to have walked Elanthia, let alone God's great Earth.

*@**@*?

You better watch your mouth, Mister!

[BriarFox]

From what I understood, this thread was about how to create a rogue that died less often, not a comparison between a ranged archer and a OHB rogue.

The only way to do a fair comparison would be to take a level 100 rogue with the proper race selection and stat placement trained the way I suggest, against a level 100 rogue trained any other way and give them both equal gear (let's say base 4x gear) and no outside spell help and see which one dies less often hunting. I would also bet that the former would be more effective in PvP, although that is a different topic.

Yes, and the point is that ranged (open or sniping) is a far more effective style than OHB for a rogue (who's presumably going to have to be ambushing). It's faster, it's more lethal, and it provides better DS (except against bolts) than an OHB/Shield build. An open ranged build also leaves far more TPs available than an OHB build does, which means that such a character can train more spells and receive their various benefits. Moreover, ranged is BY FAR a more effective PvP style, at least if one's sniping. A rogue can fire an arrow from hiding while remaining hidden, hit an eye, kill the target, and sneak out of the room without ever being identified. Heck, that rogue could fire half a dozen arrows if needed, and still remain hidden.

[Jeril]

Why are you guys even bothering to argue with him? He is obviously still stuck in GS III and doesn't seem to even play GS any more, in an earlier post someone mentions him being banned. So how is his view even worth anything? Still, I find it all amusing so if you want to keep banging your collective heads against a brick wall, carry on.

[Scintillion]

Yes, and the point is that ranged (open or sniping) is a far more effective style than OHB for a rogue (who's presumably going to have to be ambushing). It's faster, it's more lethal, and it provides better DS (except against bolts) than an OHB/Shield build. An open ranged build also leaves far more TPs available than an OHB build does, which means that such a character can train more spells and receive their various benefits. Moreover, ranged is BY FAR a more effective PvP style, at least if one's sniping. A rogue can fire an arrow from hiding while remaining hidden, hit an eye, kill the target, and sneak out of the room without ever being identified. Heck, that rogue could fire half a dozen arrows if needed, and still remain hidden.

I'm not disputing that using ranged weapons may be a faster and more lethal method of hunting. However, as JustDan was wanting a character who died less often (not one that killed faster or more effectively), I suggested training a rogue in OHE/shield or OHB/shield along with other essential combat related skills. For persons who are hunting with "normal" gear and without the help of outside spells, the ability to avoid a variety of attacks, and survive when they get hit far outweighs any benefit of the ability to kill faster. I also suggested rerolling into a Giantman or Half-Krolvin, because the most important aspect of character creation is race selection with regard to long term survivability and viability. For spells, a rogue shouldn't learn past 107 and 406 because of the impact on redux. This is also operating under the assumption that the rogue will be hunting self-cast and with "normal" gear and will eventually get hit. The most important trait for any character, regardless of profession is survivability. Having high hit points, redux, heavy armor, high DS, ability to avoid maneuvers, and with spells that add to TD are paramount for any rogue who is hunting self cast and with "normal" gear (to make all things equal for a test, assume each character is using all 4x gear from the armory).

[Warriorbird]

Thread: Open archery at 93?
Even if you have 1 million AS, you will take hits. All things being equal (same gear, same stats, etc), the character with the most hitpoints wins...because you can't train hitpoints.

It isn't even about AS. You are exposed to danger (hiding or not) for less time using ranged. You have much greater defensive capabilities using ranged. You dodge maneuvers better as other races. You have better TD as other races and your sword and board (or OHB and board) path is just stupid in modern times. Suggesting that people use a logic gimped race is also ultra stupid (like said race.)

In addition? The people who actually hunt obsessively these days? They use ranged.

And if you have hiding? Sniping is safer than ambushing.

I wouldn't even care apart from the fact that I like these boards to be informative.

You still think CM is used for maneuver dodging. You shouldn't even be talking, much less neg repping.

And where does HP/redux/stamina come from? PF. Much easier to train using ranged.

And you CAN even train extra hit points.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Toughness

To add even more to your level of idiocy, there's the magic of enhancives. You could run around with boosted hit points, constitution, and stamina as a capped (or not) player easily.

[Scintillion]

You don't have a damn clue about building a Rogue in current GS.

In fact, for defensive purposes, you could argue that those races are LESS viable. Those of us who have actually read the boards have learned the racial maneuver mods, and the racial TD mods have been known back since you actually played. In your suggestion of those two races you actually miss their ranged weapon RT reduction, however, which is nice, but in these days of post cap hunting pretty much nobody touches Half-Krol. The logic penalty is a huge fail.

Archery has synergy with some of the skills that help with fighting off current maneuvers attacks, and if you want you can actually make a more physical build than your "physical" build relatively easily with it.

It's both offensively and defensively superior, almost brokenly so.


Racial maneuver and TD modifiers are a lot less important than hit points from the standpoint of survivability (If you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less).

The most important aspect of character creation is race selection. The most important attributes for any character regardless of profession are not trainable.


You can train a rogue in skills to avoid maneuver based attacks:

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#combatmaneuvers

Combat Maneuvers
Combat maneuvers training is a rather broad skill that covers many of the subtle "tricks of the trade" for melee combat. The more obvious benefits of the skill are the bonuses to attack and defense it provides. The bonus is dependant upon the stance you are in. When in more offensive stances it will help you hit harder, while in more defensive stances it will help you defend better compared to someone without it. The subtle aspects of the skill are found when trying to dodge special "maneuver" type attacks that one might face. Combat maneuvers skill figures into some but not all of these situations.

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#dodging

Dodging
A character training in this skill learns combat techniques to deflect or avoid blows, provided that the character is not completely incapacitated (sleeping, paralyzed, etc.). The character's Defensive Strength (DS) and ability to avoid many maneuver attacks take the Dodging skill into account.


You can train a rogue to learn spells which enhance TD (both minor elemental and minor spiritual spells are available):

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=1

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=3


You cannot train any character to have 235 hit points. Even persons who have "super" gear cannot compensate as an elf or halfling (or any other inferior race) for this huge discrepancy in hit points which translates directly into MUCH LOWER survivability. The single greatest attribute any character can have for long term survivability and viability is high hit points which is not trainable (If you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less).

The negative modifier applied to the Logic stat of Half-Krolvin in no way effects their ability to survive attacks, either physical or magical (If you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less):

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp#logic

Logic
A person's capacity for critical and rational thought, reflecting their ability to reach logical conclusions based on available facts. Logic affects how much experience a character can gain before needing to rest, how quickly a character can absorb that experience, and the ability to activate magical items and scrolls.

(As a side note, persons who advocate "dumping" the Influence stat should probably consider the fact that there are spells and other abilities which take this stat into consideration for warding - another good reason to place your stats for full optimization yielding the highest stat totals possible.):

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp#influence

Influence
A person's ability to influence others. Some aspects of Influence include leadership, inspiration, persuasion, intimidation, fear, presence, and personal charm or magnetism. Magic or abilities that affect the target's mind or emotions are typically more powerful for casters with a high Influence attribute.


In conclusion, if you are looking to create a rogue that is able to avoid a variety of attacks (DS, maneuver, TD, multiple attackers, etc.), have high hitpoints, solid redux, wear heavy armor and die very rarely (less than 10 times from level 0-100 or experience equivalent) I would suggest rolling (or rerolling) into a Giantman (or Half-Krolvin as a second choice) with fully optimized stats (with the highest possible stat totals - not dumping any stats) and training the way I suggested earlier in the thread.

If you are ok with having a rogue (or any character) that is inherently weak, dies a lot (more than 1 time every 10 levels or experience equivalent) dependent upon others for spellups, "super" gear, etc. then it doesn't really matter what you do.

There are lots of folks walking around as proof that any race/stat/training combination can make it to level 100 (If you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less).

[Warriorbird]

How many people have told you that this information is outdated?

In addition, if you're going to go with the whole "HP!" thing, Dwarves kick the everliving fuck out of Giant or HK.

In the post GS4 era, you'll die far more as a Giant or HK sword and board or blunt and board guy. I'd lay money on it.

CM also has not a damn thing to do with maneuver avoidance. This has been GM confirmed multiple times.

Given combat toughness and items you CAN now take a Burghal gnome to 235 HP.

Stat optimization is also nonsense in an era when you can use the Adventurer's Guild to stat reset. It will reduce "survivability."

All of your suggested training things (or the actually correct ones) are easier using ranged weapons. Maneuver deaths (which are more lethal than nicks by far) are much easier to avoid as a non Giant or HK.

[Scintillion]

And you CAN even train extra hit points.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Combat_Toughness

To add even more to your level of idiocy, there's the magic of enhancives. You could run around with boosted hit points, constitution, and stamina as a capped (or not) player easily.

And the persons who made the proper choice with regard to race selection would still have the same amount of higher max Hit Points, thus translating directly into the same level of MUCH HIGHER survivability.

We are not taking into consideration gear created to help inherently weaker races, since it could also be applied to those of superior races.

This would cancel out any perceived "benefit" from "training Hit Points" or using enhancives.

Unless the game is changed to where CM Toughness, enhancives, and "super" gear only aids elves and halflings, (or other inferior races) Giantmen, Half-Krolvin (or Giantmen and Dwarves in the case of casters) will always be hands down the best race selection.

[Warriorbird]

And the persons who made the proper choice with regard to race selection would still have the same amount of higher max Hit Points, thus translating directly into the same level of MUCH HIGHER survivability.

We are not taking into consideration gear created to help inherently weaker races, since it could also be applied to those of superior races.

This would cancel out any perceived "benefit" from "training Hit Points" or using enhancives.

Unless the game is changed to where CM Toughness, enhancives, and "super" gear only aids elves and halflings, (or other inferior races) Giantmen, Half-Krolvin (or Giantmen and Dwarves in the case of casters) will always be hands down the best race selection.

If this were a magical world where nicks and cuts were somehow the biggest source of death, that would be so. It isn't. Good to see you left off your crappy sword (or blunt, LOL) and board and hide ideas at least. In addition, the idea that in modern times you'd reroll a character for race reasons? Fantastically stupid.

[Scintillion]

In the post GS4 era, you'll die far more as a Giant or HK sword and board or blunt and board guy. I'd lay money on it.

CM also has not a damn thing to do with maneuver avoidance. This has been GM confirmed multiple times.




Just because you'd "lay money on it" doesn't make it a fact.

Assuming you could find any direct GM confirmation that training in combat maneuvers no longer aids with avoiding maneuver based attacks in any way (which I'm willing to bet you cannot) you can still train to avoid maneuvers.

You cannot train to increase your maximum hit point capacity.

Just because there are items and skills out there which make it easier for inferior races to survive, doesn't mean they are good.

If those same benefits are applied to those with a superior race selection any perceived "benefit" is negated.

[Warriorbird]

Just because you'd "lay money on it" doesn't make it a fact.

Assuming you could find any direct GM confirmation that training in combat maneuvers no longer aids with avoiding maneuver based attacks in any way (which I'm willing to bet you cannot) you can still train to avoid maneuvers.

You cannot train to increase your maximum hit point capacity.

Just because there are items and skills out there which make it easier for inferior races to survive, doesn't mean they are good.

If those same benefits are applied to those with a superior race selection any perceived "benefit" is negated.

More people die from maneuvers than being bled out.

All of us involved in this discussion (including the ones who don't play) except you understand how maneuvers work now.

You CAN train to increase your maximum hit point capacity.

If maneuvers are the most frequent source of death it's mighty stupid to suggest somebody reroll to become worse at avoiding them.

You can't train away those races being the worst at maneuver avoidance too (one of those things you pointed out) and you especially can't if you went to your stupid original training path.

[Scintillion]

If this were a magical world where nicks and cuts were somehow the biggest source of death, that would be so. It isn't. Good to see you left off your crappy sword (or blunt, LOL) and board and hide ideas at least. In addition, the idea that in modern times you'd reroll a character for race reasons? Fantastically stupid.

Everyone is entitled to select an inferior race, (elf, halfling, etc.) stat placement choice (non-optimized) and training path (ranged) for their rogue.

Personally, I'd prefer to make the correct choices the first time.

If I made a mistake with race selection (the one aspect of Gemstone that still isn't trainable or "fixable") I'd prefer to reroll rather than to continue wasting my time and energy on a character that will never be as good as it could be because of inherent weaknesses associated with race.

Now more than ever, race selection is by far the most important aspect of character creation (regardless of profession). Especially considering the fact that no matter how many fixstat/fixskill potions, "super" gear, or spellup characters you buy, there is nothing you can do to correct starting the game with an inferior race.

If you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less, I showed him out to do that.

To each their own, though.

[Liagala]

I heard bold tags make wrong information correct.

[Warriorbird]

Elf or halfling would always avoid maneuvers better.

They'd likely have higher DS.

Non optimized stats (pre 93, at 93 you can get close enough) would give higher DS, redux, and maneuver avoidance as well as HP.

Ranged makes training redux, spells, hiding and everything easier. You are exposed to DS based danger less and you'll likely have more CM and PF and Perception and Dodge, resulting in less deaths from maneuvers.

Heavy Armor now actually inhibits hiding. Ambushing always leaves someone more exposed than sniping and results in a greater chance of said exposure. It's always slower.

You can utilize your stamina for other things than Vanish from the open.

Suggesting that somebody reroll to a worse race (or even a better race) is like Steve Wynn-ing a Picasso in an era that features fixstats and fixskills.

::

Welcome to the future.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Creature_maneuver

[Drakefang]

I heard bold tags make wrong information correct.

Damnit I have to spread more rep, still. I'm amazed at the fact this is still going strong.

[BriarFox]

You know, Scintillion, I was hesitant, but I'm really leaning in your direction as far as races and training go. I've played a half-elf archer for a heck of a long time, but now I'm going to reroll him and change his race and build now, or maybe I'll just delete him and play the level 3 half-krolvin warrior whom I've let languish as a mule for the last ten years. Do you think you could give me some more info about why giantmen and half-krolvin are desirable, and why HPs matter so much? I just want to make sure I have all the facts before I do it. Research is important, after all.

I've got a few other questions, too:

1. What do you think about rogues training lores? I hear if you mix fire and water lore, you get this awesome fog ability that lets you hide more easily. Do you think it's worth it?

2. Do you have any good tricks for maximizing experience gain? Is it true that you can get experience just from killing these nests on Teras? That sounds easy. I bet my training doesn't matter at all if I can do that!

3. Do you know any good pickup lines? You just seem so knowledgeable that you must be a hit with the ladies.

I never knew any of this stuff, so I'm grateful to have someone so experienced here to explain it! You've also inspired me in other ways. For instance, I haven't played soccer on a team since I was 8, but I totally think I could make the U.S. Olympic Team. I'm going to sell everything I own and head to London as a walk-on!

[dszabo]

:popcorn:

[Scintillion]

More people die from maneuvers than being bled out.

All of us involved in this discussion (including the ones who don't play) except you understand how maneuvers work now.

You CAN train to increase your maximum hit point capacity.

If maneuvers are the most frequent source of death it's mighty stupid to suggest somebody reroll to become worse at avoiding them.

You can't train away those races being the worst at maneuver avoidance too (one of those things you pointed out) and you especially can't if you went to your stupid original training path.


Assuming you could show me a factual statistic to prove your statement that "more people die of maneuvers than being bled out" (Which I'd be willing to bet you can't), you can still train to become better at avoiding maneuvers.

Assuming all things being equal (stats, training, etc.) an elf cannot train to have 100 more Hit Points than a Giantman.

I believe that this lack of hit points will lead to more deaths than any penalties associated with a Giantman in avoiding maneuver based attacks.

You are making the assumption that a -5 applied to Agility on a Giantman would be worth giving up 100 hit points for, despite the Giantman being able to train 2x per level in CM and 3x per level in dodging (both of which aid with avoiding maneuvers). If you're planning long term, you'd have to make the assumption that you could theoretically "max out" in both of those skills, regardless of training plan.

Assuming you are right (which I'm willing to bet you would not be able to prove) then you could choose a Half-Krolvin who actually has a bonus associated with Agility, and still has the benefit of having massive Hit Points and the ability to train 2x per level in CM and 3x per level in dodging.

For reference:

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/stats.asp#agility

Agility
A representation of a person's grace in motion and general nimbleness of body. Actions requiring balance, maneuverability, or quick reactions are based on this attribute. Agility directly affects a character's defensive strength (DS).


Either choice will lead to less deaths.

[Scintillion]

You know, Scintillion, I was hesitant, but I'm really leaning in your direction as far as races and training go. I've played a half-elf archer for a heck of a long time, but now I'm going to reroll him and change his race and build now


That's the second good suggestion I've seen made in this thread, other than what I've said already.

[Androidpk]

I hear dodge is awesome for avoiding manuever based attacks!

[Warriorbird]

I hear dodge is awesome for avoiding manuever based attacks!

LOL.

And play.net is better than Krakiipedia.

Also stat penalties = race/size based maneuver bonuses and penalties.

[DaCapn]

I don't know what would be a more amusing basis for this Scintillion's posts: (1) the fact that someone took all of this time to troll or (2) that he actually thinks he's right.

[Kerranger]

It certainly is amusing that this has-been, irrelevant motherfucker, who has been banned longer than most people have been playing, has been trolling this stupid shit for 3 weeks and is still getting hits all day long. WTF.

[Kitsun]

Assuming you could show me a factual statistic to prove your statement that "more people die of maneuvers than being bled out" (Which I'd be willing to bet you can't), you can still train to become better at avoiding maneuvers.


I actually kept records of when my characters die... From July 2004 to present, my elf rogue has died 55 times. Only 8 of those were due to HP loss. Some of it was due to user error, most were criticals from maneuvers of varying types, GM instadeath, etc. The last death he experienced was actually in July 2010.

HP loss is not really an issue. As a giant, he'd actually be more susceptible to maneuver based deaths because of the inherent penalty that can not be enhanced away after all your mythical base training is reached.

[Scintillion]

CM also has not a damn thing to do with maneuver avoidance. This has been GM confirmed multiple times.




Welcome to the future.

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Creature_maneuver




And play.net is better than Krakiipedia.


I'll admit it, you have me confused now.

First you say that CM "has not a damn thing to do with maneuver avoidance." And it's been GM confirmed "multiple times" (still waiting on proof of that).

Then you post a link here:

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Creature_maneuver

Protection

There are several attributes which can mitigate damage from creature maneuvers:

Training

* Physical Fitness - Physical Fitness is the primary skill for defense against standard creature maneuvers.
* Combat Maneuvers - Combat Maneuvers and Perception factor in equally.
* Perception
* Shield Use - Shield Use factors into creature maneuvers that can be blocked by a shield.


So in the future, both combat maneuvers AND shield use help with avoiding maneuver based attacks?


Finally it looks like you may have decided that play.net is better than krakiipedia, which leaves us with:

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#combatmaneuvers

Combat Maneuvers
Combat maneuvers training is a rather broad skill that covers many of the subtle "tricks of the trade" for melee combat. The more obvious benefits of the skill are the bonuses to attack and defense it provides. The bonus is dependant upon the stance you are in. When in more offensive stances it will help you hit harder, while in more defensive stances it will help you defend better compared to someone without it. The subtle aspects of the skill are found when trying to dodge special "maneuver" type attacks that one might face. Combat maneuvers skill figures into some but not all of these situations.


http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#shielduse

Shield Use
Skill training in shield use allows the character to defend better when using a shield in the left hand. Some factors that also affect how well the shield protects the user are the STANCE you are in (type STANCE HELP in the game for a more in depth description of the various stances) and the quality of the shield you are using. Shields are one of the major factors in defending against any type of missile weapon, including thrown weapons, ranged weapons or magical bolt type attacks.


So it appears that training in Shield Use and Combat Maneuvers both factor into DS and maneuver avoidance. Shield use also factors into missle, thrown, ranged, and bolt DS.

Earlier, you stated that maneuvers led to the most deaths (not Hit Point loss). And you suggest training minimally in CM (which appears to aid in maneuver avoidance, unless you would like to argue that play.net and krakiipedia are both outdated), not at all in Shield Use (which appears to aid in maneuver avoidance, missile, thrown, ranged and bolt DS), and choosing a race to give you lower hit points (for the times that you may die of Hit Point loss) when if you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less.

[Warriorbird]

I'll admit it, you have me confused now.

First you say that CM "has not a damn thing to do with maneuver avoidance." And it's been GM confirmed "multiple times" (still waiting on proof of that).

Then you post a link here:

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Creature_maneuver

Protection

There are several attributes which can mitigate damage from creature maneuvers:

Training

* Physical Fitness - Physical Fitness is the primary skill for defense against standard creature maneuvers.
* Combat Maneuvers - Combat Maneuvers and Perception factor in equally.
* Perception
* Shield Use - Shield Use factors into creature maneuvers that can be blocked by a shield.


So in the future, both combat maneuvers AND shield use help with avoiding maneuver based attacks?


Finally it looks like you may have decided that play.net is better than krakiipedia, which leaves us with:

http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#combatmaneuvers

Combat Maneuvers
Combat maneuvers training is a rather broad skill that covers many of the subtle "tricks of the trade" for melee combat. The more obvious benefits of the skill are the bonuses to attack and defense it provides. The bonus is dependant upon the stance you are in. When in more offensive stances it will help you hit harder, while in more defensive stances it will help you defend better compared to someone without it. The subtle aspects of the skill are found when trying to dodge special "maneuver" type attacks that one might face. Combat maneuvers skill figures into some but not all of these situations.


http://www.play.net/gs4/info/skills.asp#shielduse

Shield Use
Skill training in shield use allows the character to defend better when using a shield in the left hand. Some factors that also affect how well the shield protects the user are the STANCE you are in (type STANCE HELP in the game for a more in depth description of the various stances) and the quality of the shield you are using. Shields are one of the major factors in defending against any type of missile weapon, including thrown weapons, ranged weapons or magical bolt type attacks.


So it appears that training in Shield Use and Combat Maneuvers both factor into DS and maneuver avoidance. Shield use also factors into missle, thrown, ranged, and bolt DS.

Earlier, you stated that maneuvers led to the most deaths (not Hit Point loss). And you suggest training minimally in CM (which appears to aid in maneuver avoidance, unless you would like to argue that play.net and krakiipedia are both outdated), not at all in Shield Use (which appears to aid in maneuver avoidance, missile, thrown, ranged and bolt DS), and choosing a race to give you lower hit points (for the times that you may die of Hit Point loss) when if you recall, JustDan was looking to create a rogue which died less.

Do you have some sort of intellectual disability?

Your idea of a ranged training path wasn't even very good in GS3. I'm proud you're reading past play.net though. I feel like steps have been made.

A typical open ranged training path would feature physical fitness (the main skill), perception (mysteriously listed as equally important as CM), ambush, a whole lot of dodge (which doesn't play a roll in maneuver avoidance...

..and we'll pause here. See, keeping your perception and ambush training up will actually generate additional ranged DS ABOVE your dodge training as well as extra AS for your ranged weapon.

and a healthy amount of CM (because you can afford it, since you're not stuck to a training path that went out in the 1990s and for that whole combat maneuver list you're unfamiliar with)

and not playing a race with a unescapable maneuver penalty would in fact die less than your training path and race suggestion.

It'd also have armor (which you wouldn't have to worry about inhibiting your hiding, and you could carefully balance to reduce the maneuver penalty on it (Yep. Armor has a maneuver penalty))

and have actual room for some other skills.

[Scintillion]

I actually kept records of when my characters die... From July 2004 to present, my elf rogue has died 55 times. Only 8 of those were due to HP loss. Some of it was due to user error, most were criticals from maneuvers of varying types, GM instadeath, etc. The last death he experienced was actually in July 2010.

HP loss is not really an issue. As a giant, he'd actually be more susceptible to maneuver based deaths because of the inherent penalty that can not be enhanced away after all your mythical base training is reached.

Since you keep records, here's one you may find interesting from Malok's sorcerer guide:

"Just for fun, I decided to track how many times Starsnuffer died during a couple hours of hunting in Old Ta’Faendryl on July 29, 2002.
* Starsnuffer just bit the dust! [1:23 pm]
* Starsnuffer just bit the dust! [1:55 pm]
* Starsnuffer just bit the dust! [2:22 pm]
* Starsnuffer just bit the dust! [3:43 pm]


So, in the span of roughly 2 hours – he got smoked 4 times!!


This guy is getting nailed more than a Vietnamese prostitute.
If he, or people like him are hunting - they are getting drilled.

If they aren’t dying – they aren’t hunting
They may very well think dying once or twice (or more) times a level is really fun and powerful in the older hunting areas because “look how easily they are able to kill the older critters and it’s not their fault they get smoked over and over because the critters have attacks that you just can’t avoid”.
If you are dying more than 1 time a level in the older hunting areas – you are either being careless – or you suck. It’s that simple. It has nothing to do with bad luck. It is completely tied to being a shitty ass character!"

[Kitsun]

So you're saying my rogue hasn't died because he hasn't hunted? My rogue was level 66 or so in 2004. Currently sitting at 24.4m exp (over triple capped).

[Warriorbird]

I heard the game hasn't changed since 2002 and Starsnuffer was the greatest Rogue ever (wasn't that Scintillion? Oh, wait...)

[Scintillion]

Do you have some sort of intellectual disability?

Your idea of a ranged training path wasn't even very good in GS3.

So let me get this right:

1) I never at any time advocated a ranged training path (even in GS3).

2) You and several others have been debating with me stating that a ranged training path would be superior to the OHE/Shield or OHB/Shield training path that I have been suggesting.

3) According to you my idea of a ranged training path "wasn't even very good in GS3."

4) I have "some sort of intellectual disability."

You are correct in that a ranged training path was never a good idea, even in GS3. That is why my rogue who completely annihilated GS3 trained in OHE/Shield, and the same reason why I advocate training in OHE/shield or OHB/Shield in GS4. From the looks of all the facts presented, it appears that OHE/Shield or OHB/Shield is far superior to training in ranged weapons - now more than ever.

[Warriorbird]

So let me get this right:

1) I never at any time advocated a ranged training path (even in GS3).

2) You and several others have been debating with me stating that a ranged training path would be superior to the OHE/Shield or OHB/Shield training path that I have been suggesting.

3) According to you my idea of a ranged training path "wasn't even very good in GS3."

4) I have "some sort of intellectual disability."

You are correct in that a ranged training path was never a good idea, even in GS3. That is why my rogue who completely annihilated GS3 trained in OHE/Shield, and the same reason why I advocate training in OHE/shield or OHB/Shield in GS4. From the looks of all the facts presented, it appears that OHE/Shield or OHB/Shield is far superior to training in ranged weapons - now more than ever.

1. What you just listed as a "Ranged training path" in an attempt to bash it has nothing to do with what anybody trains lately. Of course you didn't advocate it because you don't have a clue what one was, then or now.

2. Of course it's superior. What you listed is much less durable.

3. What you listed wouldn't have even been trained in GS3, so it was extra stupid.

4. Is it Aspergers?

I can't wait to see your evidence of superiority. I mean we even have people who keep better records than me mocking your attempt to mess up people's training.

So far the evidence in your court is that Starsnuffer died in 2002. It's 2012, when last I checked.


The world has moved on.

[droit]

Eh. As much as I hate to feed the troll, there are plenty of reasons a giantman or half-krol would have good survivability. First of all, I don't think bleeding out is as rare as people claim. I'm a giantman with 247 HP and excellent defensive training plus HDP, and I still get bled out occasionally. Furthermore, the maneuver penalty isn't as bad as people think it is, especially once you get to high enough level to compensate with PF, CM and perception training.

Maybe I missed the boat about why we're all hating on this guys ideas though.

[Scintillion]

So you're saying my rogue hasn't died because he hasn't hunted? My rogue was level 66 or so in 2004. Currently sitting at 24.4m exp (over triple capped).

Level 100 - Level 66 = 34 levels since 2004.

Assuming 55 deaths since 2004 that would be approximately 1.6 deaths per level.

From Malok's guide: "If you are dying more than 1 time a level in the older hunting areas – you are either being careless – or you suck. It’s that simple. It has nothing to do with bad luck. It is completely tied to being a shitty ass character!"

Given the fact that the game has been massively downtweaked since 2002, (to be made so easy that literally any race selection, stat placement choice and training plan can now make it to level 100) I would apply Malok's opinion to anyone dieing more than 1 time every 10 levels.

Once you hit the cap you should almost never die at all. Your character should only be improving, adding more skills as training points become available.

[Warriorbird]

Level 100 - Level 66 = 34 levels since 2004.

Assuming 55 deaths since 2004 that would be approximately 1.6 deaths per level.

From Malok's guide: "If you are dying more than 1 time a level in the older hunting areas – you are either being careless – or you suck. It’s that simple. It has nothing to do with bad luck. It is completely tied to being a shitty ass character!"

Given the fact that the game has been massively downtweaked since 2002, (to be made so easy that literally any race selection, stat placement choice and training plan can now make it to level 100) I would apply Malok's opinion to anyone dieing more than 1 time every 10 levels.

Once you hit the cap you should almost never die at all. Your character should only be improving, adding more skills as training points become available.

You have some math issues. 234+ levels. I see we're down to bashing the game as evidence too. Clearly you're very experienced with it.

[Scintillion]

I can't wait to see your evidence of superiority.

"If you can't see it, it wasn't meant for you to see. If you weren't born with it, it wasn't meant for you to be."

~ DMX

[Warriorbird]

"If you can't see it, it wasn't meant for you to see. If you weren't born with it, it wasn't meant for you to be."

~ DMX

I've followed DMX's career after the 1990s (like GS). You might not have. I think the bit of time where he got arrested for pretending to be an FBI officer is especially instructive related to your math skills. There's also the bit where he's a crack addict with no career any more.

Get at me dog.

[Kitsun]

Once you hit the cap you should almost never die at all. Your character should only be improving, adding more skills as training points become available.

So, at this point you should be agreeing that race does not matter (since my elf rogue hasn't actually died in 2 years while I have been hunting). Which is where your theoretical giantman rogue with max'd combat skills would theoretically be... also not dying. So you don't actually have to be a giant/krol to WIN (using your definition of winning where characters kill things and not die).

[Scintillion]

So, at this point you should be agreeing that race does not matter (since my elf rogue hasn't actually died in 2 years while I have been hunting). Which is where your theoretical giantman rogue with max'd combat skills would theoretically be... also not dying. So you don't actually have to be a giant/krol to WIN (using your definition of winning where characters kill things and not die).

I agree that: Level 100 - Level 66 = 34 Levels since 2004.

I agree that: at 55 deaths per Level that comes out to approximately 1.6 deaths per Level.

I agree that: Levels are not the same thing as experience points.

I agree that: From Malok's guide: "If you are dying more than 1 time a level in the older hunting areas – you are either being careless – or you suck. It’s that simple. It has nothing to do with bad luck. It is completely tied to being a shitty ass character!"

I agree that: In a game where any race selection, stat placement choice, or training path can make it to Level 100, I would apply Malok's opinion to any character that dies more than 1 time per 10 Levels.

[Warriorbird]

I agree that: Level 100 - Level 66 = 34 Levels since 2004.

I agree that: at 55 deaths per Level that comes out to approximately 1.6 deaths per Level.

I agree that: Levels are not the same thing as experience points.

I agree that: From Malok's guide: "If you are dying more than 1 time a level in the older hunting areas – you are either being careless – or you suck. It’s that simple. It has nothing to do with bad luck. It is completely tied to being a shitty ass character!"

I agree that: In a game where any race selection, stat placement choice, or training path can make it to Level 100, I would apply Malok's opinion to any character that dies more than 1 time per 10 Levels.

You're parodying yourself at this point.

I'm looking forward to seeing your successful capped character. The game is "so simple now" after all.

[AnticorRifling]

But bro you can't use your facts in this argument. Thsi guy won an old game that doesn't exist anymore so he knows what works in this game.

[DaCapn]

Eh. As much as I hate to feed the troll, there are plenty of reasons a giantman or half-krol would have good survivability. First of all, I don't think bleeding out is as rare as people claim. I'm a giantman with 247 HP and excellent defensive training plus HDP, and I still get bled out occasionally. Furthermore, the maneuver penalty isn't as bad as people think it is, especially once you get to high enough level to compensate with PF, CM and perception training.

Maybe I missed the boat about why we're all hating on this guys ideas though.

He has two somewhat distinct suggestions in his toolbox which often get blended into one master suggestion which he uses in all circumstances: "reroll as a giant" and "reroll as a warrior."

We're only really talking about the giant premise here (though he did throw out the warrior suggestion in the beginning). So far he has suggested a high stealth build with the maximum possible defense training-wise and has stated that the most important factor is race selection. Based on those criteria, a halfling is probably best due to their sizable stealth bonus, their excellent innate maneuver defense, huge TD bonuses, and agility bonus. After all, avoiding attacks should be superior, right? As you take hits, you accrue penalties in your defenses due to blood loss and you need more health. You need a lot of health as a giant because you're worse at evading outright. So there's some logic to it but it assumes you're in the habit of getting hit in the first place (personally, I'm not, and not because of spell tanking either).

There's also an issue with his "equal standing" comparison criterion. He states that "you can get enhancives to correct that" should be thrown away as an argument. Which is almost a fair statement, except you can't enhance everything and certain things are much harder to enhance than others. Can you buy enhancives to increase your HP total? Yes. Can you buy enhancives to equal halfling racial bonuses? Not really. Further, he doesn't apply this same "equal standing" criterion to training. Which, really, is where you should apply it most since we're talking about a single profession.

Random things he seems to think are correct:
- Blood loss is by far the most dominant form of death (Is this because he doesn't have experience beyond level 50? Is this based on how criticals used to be in GS3?)
- OHB/shield is a far better combat build for a rogue than ranged (Is this because he doesn't have experience beyond level 50? Does anyone else agree?)
- Dodge factors into evasion of creature maneuver attacks (Does it? Which? I thought roa'ter burrows but that's wrong. Maybe that tiger tackle one?)
- CM factors into evasion of creature maneuver attacks (It factors into evasion of CMs from the CM list)
- play.net docs are accurate

He has some underlying ideas that make sense. And that's what you're probably reading. But basically everything else he says is based on his lack of understanding about the game. Trolls can troll, that's fine. But some of the random crap he has been saying could definitely confuse people if it went unchecked.