Best weapon for Ambushing Rogues?

[Dosselmeyer]

I am sure this will likely stir some debate:
What's the best type of weapon for ambushing, assuming your a "straight" rogue with no wizard keeping you permahasted and that type of thing?

Crit-Weighting? Is this worth the cost and loss of AS? If I ambush from hiding (which I always am), I am essentially adding "crit weighting" at least that's how I used to understand it....

High Enchant? Should I just be looking for a 10X OHE? The higher the AS=the higher the end roll= the higher the crit result from the ambush? Yes?

Flares? Seems a little silly if your expecting to instakill or leg something.

Damage Weighting? Good for TK's I guess...

What about OHE choices? Should I be looking for a Shortsword? To decrease my Ambush RT to 5? Or just do a Handaxe/ Falchion?

What's the deal with perfect forged weapons? Is THIS what I should be looking for?

Sorry if this is widely known, I've been out of the game for a number of years and the official message boards are a wasteland now.... weird. I sold most of my gear when I got out last time, I have some silver to spend just not sure the best way to spend it.

thanks,

Dosselmeyer

[Gelston]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&f=29&page=1&pp=20&sort=lastpost&order=desc&daysprune=-1

It all depends on what you hunt. If it has eyes, a high enchanted dagger is fine. It it doesn't, get something bigger.

[droit]

I'd probably go with a mace. Crush only.

[Rhovan]

I've been considering this a lot myself recently. I agree a one hit death crit is the best to aim for, but there are a lot of factors in it. The way crit randomization works, the final crit you inflict can be lowered by about half. The highest crit rank you can get is a 9, which can then end up being anywhere between 5 and 9. This is important to consider when looking at what type of weapon to use.

Crush damage aimed at the head or neck will yield a death crit at rank 5 and above.
Slash damage aimed at either eye will yield a death crit at rank 5 and above.
Pierce damage aimed at either eye will yield a deat crit at rank 4 and above (therefore a dagger to the eye only needs a crit rank of 7 before randomization to guarantee a kill).

These are the only ways to guarantee a kill by hitting hard enough. There is no way to select which type of damage you will inflict when you are ambushing if you are using a weapon that can inflict multiple damage types. Therefore, a weapon that only does crush, or a weapon that only does slash or pierce are preferable as you can aim at the correct body part to get the kill on the first blow. It is also worth noting that the head or neck are easier to aim at than the eyes. Smaller weapons are generally more easily aimed as well.

Weapons that only inflict crushing damage: fists, cestus, knuckle-duster, blackjack, leather whip, cudgel, mace, ball and chain, runestaff, quarterstaff, war mattock, and maul.

Weapons that only inflict slash or puncture damage: razor-paw, hook knife, sai, katar, arrow, bolt, dagger, main guache, rapier, whip blade, estoc, and katana.

This list can quickly be shrunk by picking what type of weapon training you want to follow. Obviously, smaller weapons that can be swung quickly are preferred, but you still need to hit hard enough with them to get a high crit rank before randomization. This will depend on what type of critter you are hunting as armor and padding will influence this as well. Therefore there is no one best weapon, though I think we all have our favorites.

[Rhovan]

To add in a few thoughts that are less about the numbers, other weapons that mix damage types can still be devastating. They just won't guarantee you a kill. As a capped ambushing rogue, I'd also recommend getting crit weighting on a weapon with a low damage factor, but larger weapons don't need it. I'm not exactly sure where that cut off is, but the best way to find out is to try out a few different weapons yourself every once in awhile to see where you are.

It's also good to know the height differences between yourself and what you hunt. Larger weapons can often be aimed at the head area initially, while small weapons might require you to knock the critter down first.

[Gizmo]

lawl Ambushing? 635 Beeches!

Fixed for you!

[DaCapn]

Assuming we're talking about melee weapons only, I'd agree that the mace is probably the best all around. But it's a balance of TP costs, DF, damage type (critical table), and speed.

Damage weighting is worthless. Highest enchant is the most important since you need to do enough raw damage to get your ambush critical weighting to trigger.

As far as OHE weapons go, handaxe and the very similar falchion are pretty popular early on. Daggers can win out in later levels due to huge amounts of weighting. Short swords shouldn't be your go-to but sometimes you need a compromise between daggers and handaxes DF & RT-wise.

Weighting is only useful in so far as it helps you achieve rank 9 criticals. If you can generate a rank 9 crit reliably, weighting is worthless. I'd pick up a SWCW dagger if I was using OHE. Pretty cheap and against plate, you're effectively increasing your endroll by 67 points. Ain't peanuts.

[droit]

I used to ambush with daggers before I changed builds and I thoroughly enjoyed it. You have to have a really high AS in order to activate the ambush crit weighting, but I found it very effective even vs plate. Speed is king in GS. Ambushing in 4 seconds as opposed to 6 makes a bigger difference than one might think.

[Gizmo]

I second Droit's statement. Most of my rogues always use two daggers, and I tend to start ambushing once I hit level 24 or so and never look back.

[Riltus]

You need an endroll ≥ 240 with a dagger to activate crit weighting against targets wearing torso plate coverage; that's the minimum endroll required for a rank 1 critical (10.5 raw damage / .075 DF). Assuming 55 points of weighting, a 680 endroll against targets in full plate and a 440 endroll against MBP, ABP and Half Plate will guarantee a 100% fatal result with successful eye strikes. Since the dagger puncture/slash ratio is ~ 5/8 to 3/8, a rank 8 eye crit (before randomization) will have an 88.5% fatal rate.

Below are the minimum endroll thresholds with their corresponding fatal critical rates (using 55 points of critical weighting in these examples). Obviously the endrolls would need to be adjusted up or down depending on the actual critical weighting. For the dagger each point of weighting = 13 1/3 ER and 4.76 ER for the handaxe. A perfect weapon will reduce these thresholds. Minimum rank 1 crit endroll vs plate with a perfect dagger will drop from 240 to 233; minimum endroll for a perfect handaxe drops from 150 to 148.

Dagger (fatal EYE crit percentage) w/55 points of weighting vs full plate:

ER ≥680 = 100%
ER 434 = 88.5%
ER 386 = 86.5%
ER 240 = 63%
ER <240 = No crit

Dagger vs MBP, ABP and Half plate (EYE - armor critical divisor 9):

ER ≥440 = 100%
ER 240 = 88.5%
ER <240 = No crit


Handaxe aimed head attacks, w/55 points of weighting, will have ~92.5% fatal critical results with a 308 endroll vs full plate. The crush/slash handaxe ratio is ~5/8 to 3/8. All rank 9 head crush crits and 80% slash crits will be fatal after randomization.


(100% crush * 5/8) + (80% slash * 3/8) = 92.5% fatal critical

To attain the same results against MBP, ABP and Half Plate the minimum endroll, with a handaxe and 55 points of weighting, drops from 308 to 222 because the head has chain coverage (armor critical divisor of 9).

Handaxe (fatal HEAD critical percentage) w/ 55 points of weighting vs full plate:

ER ≥308 = 92.5%
ER 255 = 69.5%
ER 203 = 63%
ER 150 = 44.25%
ER <150 = No crit

Handaxe (fatal HEAD critical percentage) w/55 points of weighting vs MBP, ABP, Half Plate (HEAD - armor critical divisor 9):

ER ≥222 = 92.5%
ER 150 = 69.5%
ER <150 = No crit

Mace, crush damage only, has a .175 DF vs plate. Minimum endroll for 100% fatal head critical is 349 vs full plate and 246 vs MBP, ABP and Half Plate. In addition to the lower DF, the mace also has 5 less AvD vs plate than the handaxe.

Mark

[Buckwheet]

Before Mark posted his analysis, I was going to say Handaxe base. I have always used it as haste is easy enough to come by in the instances where you need a little extra speed.

[sweegy]

I've been using maces since I was about 20 trains and been loving it. It was a little tough finding good ones for sale and I think I used a +17 HCW one for most of my trainings because I couldn't find a decent upgrade, which I found out too late really wasn't necessary (although I believe it did help for the stone type critters like Illoke). Funny thing is I started using maces because I won knockout flares and just slapped it on a mace, but it turns out that's not effective because you need to hit the head or eyes to get it to even flare....and that usually killed them anyway.

Your best bet if you go that route is to enchant up a perfect one, I lost a 5x perfect to Ithzir and haven't found anyone making them since.

[Drew]

Mace, crush damage only, has a .175 DF vs plate. Minimum endroll for 100% fatal head critical is 349 vs full plate and 246 vs MBP, ABP and Half Plate. In addition to the lower DF, the mace also has 5 less AvD vs plate than the handaxe.

Mark

I prefer two maces to two handaxes for the difference in speed.

[Gibreficul]

BEST ambushing weapon depends on the armor of your target.

Since OHE gives the best range of options, I prefer that group for ambushing. Daggers are great up to chain armor, and even then, still can be effective. That said, since a dagger isn't good enough for plate, you'll probably want to use the best option against plate, which in edged is a handaxe.

I've been wrong before. <shrug> :club:

[Gibreficul]

You need an endroll ≥ 240 with a dagger to activate crit weighting against targets wearing torso plate coverage; that's the minimum endroll required for a rank 1 critical (10.5 raw damage / .075 DF).

Aside note... I regularly get crit kills with a dagger against triton combatants (full plate equiv) with 235 endrolls. I won't 'argue with the numbers, but I'll only assume maxed out ambush at cap adds a metric fuckton of crit weighting.

[andrew wiggin]

this one is easy. The answer for best ambushing weapon for a rogue is a Claidhmore.

But since you're fond of edged weapons.

Handaxe
Estoc
Dagger

a perfect forged one is best way to go. Then seek for high enchant. Then crit weighing. You can dismiss crit weighing if you like to hunt against like level creatures. But if you really want to uphunt, then add crit weighing.

[Asha]

In Nelemar a flamberge or a mattock had my favourite overall effect against their natural armours. A claidh was nice for the weighting but you don't need it when you're hitting shit in the head from hiding with a THW.

[andrew wiggin]

against like lvl you'll get your full benifit of the ambushing skill. but against higher lvl. your ambushing skill get's mod down base on the creature's lvl/skill difference from yours. if they ever open a lvl 120 hunting area. our 202 ambushing skill rank is going to become worthless. a 20 lvl difference seems to be the peak where it'll just null whatever innate mod you have.

[Dosselmeyer]

So how does one go about getting Crit Weighting added to an item? I thought Premium points... but I only see an option for crit padding. Is it merchant only? How often does this happen these days?

Why are premium points so valuable, is it just that everyone wants to HCP their armor.

Speaking of premium points, I understand there is "no discount" if your armor is already padded, so it would be best to just find a very light set of armor with a decent enchant and then have it heavy padded?

Does enchanting work the same way? You can get a 10X ET for 5000 points? Or do you have to buy each enchant?

[andrew wiggin]

only some merchants will do crit weighing. no more premie option.

it's not often maybe once or twice a year through a raffle or grand prize of some rediculous game that you'll have almost no chance of winning or through an auction that you'll never have the silvers to compete.

You can dream about it, but don't hold your breath on getting selected for something like that.

there's plenty of fel hafters (4x hcw handaxe) available as long as you got the silvers. last I known I think they go for 8-10m.

But personally for that amount, I'd go for a 4x perfect handaxe AND a 4x perfect dagger and have some spare change.

Unless you're rich, the fel hafted waraxe is good until you can get a 6x or 7x perfect axe.
------------------------

premie point is valuable because everyone wants to further enchant their already hcp armor.

don't use up your premie point unless your'e absolutely sure that's what you want. use silvers instead and buy from other players.

premie enchanting is 1x at a time and it'll auto calc for you how much points you need.

------------
treasure hunt like there's no tomorrow and save up your silvers. There's more things you can do (or get) with silvers than premie points.

[Riltus]

Aside note... I regularly get crit kills with a dagger against triton combatants (full plate equiv) with 235 endrolls. I won't 'argue with the numbers, but I'll only assume maxed out ambush at cap adds a metric fuckton of crit weighting.

The 235 endroll suggests that the dagger you are using has a higher than standard (.075) damage factor. Is it a perfect dagger? If so, then the endroll required for crit weighting activation is 233 (10.5/.079). Anything that raises the DF will lower the endroll activation threshold.

One way to estimate how much weighting your ambush attacks are adding is to find the highest crit rank you are generating with endrolls just above the activation threshold. This will be target specific. For example, if you have a rank 7 crit with a perfect dagger and an endroll less than 250 vs full plate, then the weighting is ~65+.

You could do a data search and look for all rank 7 crits and just work with those, or search for the highest crit within endroll ranges, e.g., ER 233 to 299, 300 to 399 etc. and estimate the weighting from those results. Determining the exact weighting is non-trivial and requires a bit of luck.

If you had 40 samples in the 246 to 283 endroll range and had no rank 7 crits you can be pretty confident that the maximum weighting is less than 66. With 66 points of weighting, 25% of the results should randomize to rank 7.

Use the following formula to determine the minimum weighting of an attack for targets without crit padding.


(Crit rank * armor crit divisor) - (raw damage) = minimum weighting

Raw Damage: (Endroll - 100) * Weapon damage factor
Armor crit divisors: 5 (cloth), 6 (leather), 7 (scale), 9 (chain), 11 (plate).

You can use this for weighting from any source (ambush, weapon or dex bonus). From the data I have, weighting from these sources does not fully stack. A character with 7 points of Dex bonus weighting using an HCW (10 points) weapon will not add 17 points of weighting. It will be more than 10 but less than 17, however, I haven't been able to determine a reliable formula for the stacking.

Mark

[Gibreficul]

I have all kinds of daggers, and it just didn't matter. I tested with all of them, because I do that sort of thing. The 4x returning blessable dagger got the same kill on a 235 endroll that the perfect dagger, and the HCW dagger got on an ambush from hiding. Open attacks were a whole different story.

My head wants to assplode every time Mark gives a post like that... Like really. :thinking: tick tick tick... BOOM... :clap:

[Drunken Durfin]

This. (http://www.cheytac.com/Products/408M200Interventionimg.php)

[Anothi]

It's raining cold hard facts up in here.

[Mumblz]

tested and beat your beta game, sadly when i go to your link the site is down

[DoctorUnne]

I did a bunch of testing with 202 ranks of ambush using Riltus' methodology and found I was getting at least 60 or so points of weighting. I forget the exact number but it's a lot.

Which is why in my opinion crit weighting isn't worth it as an ambusher unless you're using a dagger and even then it's only useful against plate. The only time your ambush won't generate enough weighting to get you to rank 9 or close to it is with plate, but by then the AS/DS differential should be sufficiently high to cover the difference if you're using something other than a dagger. Even destroyers have a pretty low DS unless you get zero pushdown. Go for high enchant perfects.

[Luftstreitkräfte]

What I gathered from above:

1. Dexterity bonus has less of an effect when weapon weighting is added to the equation.

2. Ambushing with maces is good for crush / speed but the DF is lacking compared to handaxes.

3. Riltus is a genius

Tell me if these deductions are correct.

I would like to see some testing with a level 70 or 80 ambusher with 2x ambush and maxed ambush enhancives (or the proper ranger aspect) ambushing something that is level 100.

What I've been wondering:

1. Does going beyond 2x ambush do anything? Would one get additional pushdown?

2. Could a ranger with jackal aspect and ambush enhancives do better vs creatures 20+ levels over him, or would it not make a difference if ambush is at 202 or 252 ranks?

3. Would it be better to have a 10x perfect handaxe with HCW (versus just a 10x perfect), or should an ambusher use those funds to max enhancives like strength and CM?

4. Would using a dexterity enhancive (or ranger wolf aspect) ever make sense for an OHE ambusher?

5. Is there any situation where ambushing with a maul (from hiding) would be desirable?

[andrew wiggin]

What I've been wondering:

1. Does going beyond 2x ambush do anything? Would one get additional pushdown?

I'm sure there's a diminishing return effect on this skill.
I've tried ambushing enhancive about +25 ambush skill total over a 2x ambushing built and didn't notice any drastic difference. about an additional %2-%3 percent pushdown on target's ds(when my rogue was at lvl 73 going against lvl 80-89 critters).

Ambushing skill does alot of things, target ds pushdown, target's EBP reduction, crit weighing, accuracy and i'm sure others.

But as for DS pushdown, Your level versus target's level/skill is the more significant factor for it.

2. Could a ranger with jackal aspect and ambush enhancives do better vs creatures 20+ levels over him, or would it not make a difference if ambush is at 202 or 252 ranks?

Doesn't make a difference. GSIII sure. but now there's like a scale modifiier that makes your skills and abilities nearly worthless at a certain point of lvl differential. Kind of like a lvl 20 ranger trying to spike thorn a lvl 60, not going to do squat and even slimmer chance to bypass EBP. Offensive CMAN practically becomes worthless at 10+ lvl and hard at something between +5-+10 lvls over.

3. Would it be better to have a 10x perfect handaxe with HCW (versus just a 10x perfect), or should an ambusher use those funds to max enhancives like strength and CM?

Speaking from a pure mechanical advantage point of view. the 10x HCW perfect handaxe is better than plain 10x perfect for ambushing.

But in practice, with limited amount of silvers to consider, crit weighing isn't worth it. But if you have plenty of money, why not? it's icing on the cake.

4. Would using a dexterity enhancive (or ranger wolf aspect) ever make sense for an OHE ambusher?

It's been proven and stated on officials that dexterity adds natural crit weighing. So it makes alot of sense. It's like the crit weighing on the weapon. if you can, why not. If you can't, not really going to hurt you, unless you have a -20 dex bonus or something. (might want to reroll)

5. Is there any situation where ambushing with a maul (from hiding) would be desirable?

yes, pretty much all situations. DF dictates your endroll requirement for achieving a crit rank, thereby increasing your chance to achieve a critical strike.

You'll have to sacrifice alot of defense for it, whether it's worth it or not, that'll depend on your hunting style.

In general cases of a 1-100 lvl progression, sword and board is the most solid build.

It's fairly easy to achieve rank 4 or rank 5 crit, so a maul is overkill and only provide some extra convenience.

Specific example is when you're not going for a rank 5 crit and you need a rank 9 crit in the case of legging down something first. You'll have a far better chance to get a rank 9 to sever the leg than a smaller weapon.

Then if it's not critable, like greater construct or earth elementals, you'll need another rank 9 crit to sever the right arm, disabling it completely in 2 strikes. And also with the higher damage, to kill it faster.

And if you're a fan of Silent Strike. Using a maul or claidhmore, will really increase your chance of a crit kill, because now the back, chest, and abdomen are feasible targets, which require rank 8-9 crit for the kill is far more achievable than with a lower df weapon.

It all sounds nice and pretty amazing, but at the end. Is that really worth a potential 10x shield(50 ds), %10 block, and whatever ds from 202 shield use ranks get's you?

[DaCapn]

If you're THW trained, use a maul. The maul works pretty well. I don't think it's the best long-term solution. Higher levels you're worried about exposure. I have a burghal rogue nearing 40 that's a THW/410 build. No toys, up-hunts 5 levels self-spelled no problem. I think that's where the maul build is most useful (mid-low levels, up-hunting). You can 1-on-1 it, or 410 a room of 3 guys, hide/behead two of them, then leg/behead the third. Whatever the case, you need really aggressive armor training or 410 to balance out how much you land in the open. Quite literally every

You can't train more than 2x ambush. Assuming you made a mistake, with the THW rogue, I started out as ~<1.5x ambush but have since brought it up to 2x. The main thing I've noticed is a rather substantial improvement in aiming and more stance pushdown when uphunting.

If you're using a claidhmore, you'd better be open-ambushing. If you're open-ambushing, you'd better be a warrior.

With regards to the uber-weapon, AS is generally the key (triggering a rank 1 crit so your weighting kicks in), rather than having weighting. If you've got it, or can get something rather cheaply, that's great. It shouldn't be your main objective, though. All of the formulas are available. If you know what weapon base you want, make a table of that weapon vs. various armors for a range of endrolls. See how the crit ranks vary as you change weighting, weapon enchant, etc.

[Gibreficul]

What I gathered from above:

1. Dexterity bonus has less of an effect when weapon weighting is added to the equation.

2. Ambushing with maces is good for crush / speed but the DF is lacking compared to handaxes.

3. Riltus is a genius

Tell me if these deductions are correct.

I would like to see some testing with a level 70 or 80 ambusher with 2x ambush and maxed ambush enhancives (or the proper ranger aspect) ambushing something that is level 100.

What I've been wondering:

1. Does going beyond 2x ambush do anything? Would one get additional pushdown?

2. Could a ranger with jackal aspect and ambush enhancives do better vs creatures 20+ levels over him, or would it not make a difference if ambush is at 202 or 252 ranks?

3. Would it be better to have a 10x perfect handaxe with HCW (versus just a 10x perfect), or should an ambusher use those funds to max enhancives like strength and CM?

4. Would using a dexterity enhancive (or ranger wolf aspect) ever make sense for an OHE ambusher?

5. Is there any situation where ambushing with a maul (from hiding) would be desirable?


1. <shrug> Ask Mark.
2. Ambushing with big weapons is a waste of Roundtime.
3. I have no evidence to prove otherwise.

NEXT QUESTIONS:

1. a) First, off, there is no such thing as pushdown. It's forcing a higher stance. If something is already in offensive stance, ambushing isn't going to force any lower stance. b) There's a level factor in all of this, and a check against the target's perception ranks. Certainly more ambush ranks would help get that full offensive stance force on those things at your upper limits.

2. I don't know rangers well, (or at all really.) As I'm looking at it, even if a ranger gets 640 at level 40, I doubt they're going to be built well enough (missing spell 120, at least, I'd assume) to be running around a hunting area +20 levels. Meh, rangers. (Wrong folder!)

3. If I were getting an "ambushing" weapon, of any base, that's 10x and perfect, I'd want HDW, not HCW, because I'm already adding crit weighting to each strike. In fact, I'd actually prefer to have nothing on a 10x perfect ambushing weapon so it can take a bless, but that's just me.

4. Yes, dex/agi thresholds apply to all RT adders, including encumbrance. I noticed I could ambush with no RT penalty with a level or 2 higher encumbrance when I tossed on my giftbox AGI/DEX enhansives.

5. Two-handed weapons have a lot of merit for smaller races. They give you reach where otherwise you'd have to maneuver/leg something to the ground first.

##################

Alright, now for my thoughts. An ambush rogue wants be fast. My go to weapon from hiding is a dagger. Only if that's proven to not be effective or not have the reach I need do I even consider a bigger, slower, harder hitting weapon. (Usually a handaxe.) The discussion on dagger vs plate armor above speaks for itself in how much weighting ambush ranks add.