Merchant Inconsistencies

Alright. After the faire, I had to post this... I think Simu should write a merchanting guide for GMs who do alterations. Be it feature, or simple description, there's almost no consistency as to what is allowed.

I'll use some examples:
Andraste will not make any wedding item 'seductive' or 'sultry' because she says it describes an attitude.
But... at the Revel of the Anfelt at the female armor shop, seductive tenticled ora brigandine was sold off the shelf. I don't know about you, but when I think of seductive tenticled armor, I get a really sick mental picture.

Tigermist/Sadie will not create clothing, arms, or armor that have anything to do with the elven houses. They will not make 'a Vaalorian warblade' or 'an Ardenai cloak'. It has to be Ardenai-style cloakd or Vaalor-style warblade.
Yet, such elven items have been sold off the shelves at differant merchants all along. Examples include: a Nalfein ceremonial dagger, a monir-hilted Ardenai warblade, a Loenthran phalax shield, and a rune-etched black Faendryl robe.
This wouldn't be so bad if all of the merchants did this, and all of the arms and clothing were sold off the shelf as elvenhouse-style.

I always gave the merchant Eleani a very hard time. When you look at her, you see that she's an Elf. Yet if you get chosen for an alteration by her, she'll do no work reguarding the Elven Houses. However, even though she's a pure elf, she'll do Faendryl and only Faendryl stuff.

QC refuses to make any strapless gowns or bodices because they claim it's out of genre, yet in the boutique in Illistim, you can buy a strapless bodice.

If one merchant refuses to create an item because it's 'too obscure', that means that the person controlling the merchant is too lazy to do a search on Google to do the research. You save the idea, and bring it to a merchant that will go the extra mile, and do the research behind it. Mahegh is one such GM that I've seen do extensive research. I know not many people like him, but that is one good thing I've seen him do.

Feature alterers are inconsistent too. In reguards to eyes, they'll do sultry and seductive. They'll do calculating and soul-searching, but they won't do intellegent.

[StrayRogue]

Some like/dislike to do certain things. Some are stricter than others. Some take the materials you need for the alter, some don't. I prefer it this way than there being solid rules. Most of my cooler items were made a little outside of the merchant guidelines.

[CrystalTears]

You hit the nail on the head. There is no consistancy with altered items.

One of the biggest reasons that people PAY for the big cathedral wedding package is to get the 20 altered items. However, they will nitpick your list SO much that you will not end up with anything near to what you started with.

They won't make anything floor-length. Why? Because what's floor-length to an elf is not floor-length to a giant or halfling if they wear it. WTF?! It would be different if you wanted "a tailored elven sized dress worn down to her toes" because that would mean it was made specifically for an elf. But a specific gown that just says "floor-length"? C'mon now they're just being a pain.

There were so many things that I couldn't keep the way I wanted in the first place because they were rejected that the whole experience sickened me and I never advise people to get that package, to just have a regular tent wedding. The GM's don't make anything easier, just more difficult. They really added that realistic touch to the weddings, that's for sure. :rolleyes:

I remember once I wanted to alter my bodice to a sultry bodice to match my already sultry skirt. He wouldn't do it because "he" doesn't do sultry items. Oh stop being a pansy and let me get my goddamn alter!

Heh, can you tell I have issues with merchants as well? :D

Yeah that I can understand... I had a dwarf that wouldn't paint an Ashrim crest on my breastplate because he had never seen one before. That's understandable...

For argument's sake, I wanted a Nalfein cloak. I used my alteration scroll to get it. The reply is "It can't be Nalfein. It has to be Nalfein-style". In which case, I save my idea until I get another merchant that'll do it. It looks kind of weird when you're decked out in Nalfein gear, side from the one Nalfein-style cloak.

I don't know... maybe just me, but it's just something that irritates me.

[StrayRogue]

I can understand your irritation. At the Faire, I had some armor I wanted done; I had had the same alteration done previously at Anfelt, and now I wanted it on the new armor I had aquired. I got turned down twice. It all depends on the merchant too.

[Edited on 17-8-03 by StrayRogue]

[Kisteira]

Grrr this topic is one that irritates me probably more than any other in GS, and I'm a real "take it as it comes" kind of person in regards to this game.

How many times have we been told about "suspension of belief" in GS? How many times have they told us that not all things can be 100% realistic? I, too, could not have a "floor-length" skirt made, but in another shop there was a floor-length cloak being sold. How irritating.

My best example is a petite cream-colored silk bodice I wanted made. The first person I went to wouldn't make a petite bodice. So I told him I'd get something else altered and save the bodice. SO the next merchant I went to told me that "cream-colored" was redundant and would only make it "cream". Well, to me, a cream silk bodice just doesn't sound right, but hey it was mostly what I wanted. However, sure enough, at the Artisan's faire there were some cream-colored boots... as well as "creme" items.

Now I might sound like a whiny baby here, but I don't mind playing within a given set of rules, as long as they are consistant and fair to everyone. The inconsistancy with merchant alterations is just sickening.

Kisteira

[GS4Gurl]

I know its simply absurd to have to know all the different rules, and likes and dislikes for each and every alterer. Its really rediculous. I wish they would all sit down and come up with a concrete set of rules and all follow them so there's no question. It would definately make it easier on everyone because then the wait wouldn't be so long because some moron is whining about why they cant have such and such done to their item. Just simply make a set of rules for all to follow. How hard can that be?!

Hahahahaha!

I got a floor length cloak done for my wife at last year's Artisans' Festivel. I am so much l33ter than u!!11

- @r|<@/\/$

[Edited on 8-17-2003 by Arkans]

[Adhara]

I see no problem with merchants having IC preferences and limitations like a dwarf never having been out of the caves (like Nurie).

I DO have a problem with QC saying strapless is out of genre and then selling strapless bodices off the shelves in Illistim (don't shop inventories have to go through QC?)

They should sit down and make a list of what is OOG, update the list and make sure their merchants have an up to date version. Sure, be careful what you wish for I know. I might regret it the next time I want something considered OOG (never got that response so far) but I prefer giving up on something for good than being turned down and seeing the same thing for sale a week later.

Same for feature alterations. A GM should write a guide to determine what is acceptable. Not a list of terms per se but some guidelines to help merchants determine if a word is acceptable or not.

[Artha]

Some alterers will do things if it's already in the description. I got a billowing cloak done during last years HSN.

[Bestatte]

I think it's a 2-way street. Some of the things people are asking for are ridiculous, and some of the things GMs are allowing and rejecting are ridiculous.

First - the floor-length gown: Until clothing is created with sizes, floor-length is a generic term and should be allowed. The issue I see, is that if a halfling orders a floor-length dress, then it is meant to fit HER as a floor-length dress. If she then sells it to an elf, it's going to be a mini-dress, not a floor-length dress. But the code won't reflect that change, so even asking for such a thing is out of place.

It should also be removed from the shops, until and unless clothes can be made to -only- fit people who buy them, or at least only the race of the person who buys them.

Eye features: I don't care how intelligent you -are- if you're utterly drunk, your eyes will NOT look intelligent. They'll be half-lidded, or bloodshot, or rolled up to the back of your head, but they won't be intelligent.

Sultry and seductive eyes - that's great, when your character is being sultry and seductive. But what if she's scared out of her wits? Do you really want people to see her as being sultry and seductive when you're trying to convey fear? If you mean exotic, go for exotic. If you mean they are slanted and wide and kohl-lined, then go for that.

It isn't appropriate to attach emotions to physical descriptions, unless you can -guarantee- that your character will permanently and consistently have that emotion, without ever straying from it.

But on the GMs side, I see that they aren't consistent with that, either. And I consider that very unfair.

In my character descriptions, I often include that "brown eyes gaze studiously" - but only when I'm playing a character who is studious as a natural part of her personality. Someone who scrutinizes every detail, no matter what emotion she's feeling at any given moment. Studious isn't emotional, so I figure it's allowed. Ponderously, thoughtfully, vacantly.. none of these are emotional.

If you want to include emotons, be sure you're prepared to act in that manner 24/7, or you are not acting "in character." If you don't want to act alluring and seductive 24/7, then don't include it in a description that doesn't change with your moods.

And the GMs should be faulted for not setting down a policy either for or against this sort of thing, and sticking with it across the board.

[Gokkem]

Inconsistency is a huge problem for Simu IMO and it's not just limited to merchants. It's effects are seen when it comes to discipline, deadlines, quests, etc etc etc. I think the problem lies in too much leeway given to staff. One person should be making the decisions, not the alterer or gm of the moment. Could it be that upper management is too spineless to set policies and stick to them? I'm not sure.

Tighten up the noose if you have too. Take control of your employees and show some consistency.

[Scott]

Merchants should be different. If you have some evil merchant, she shouldn't be making a stupid fluffy pink shirt with frilly orange bunnies. Yet some people ask for that crap.

It should depend on the merchant and what they feel is right. As for PVP situations and stuff, now THAT needs to have consistancy to it.....

[Edited on 8-17-2003 by Gemstone101]

[Kisteira]

The alterer who refused to make my floor-length skirt asked me "how about long?" I said something like "not to be argumentative, but wouldn't long also be subjective? what's long on an giant wouldn't be long on a halfling...?" She replied that she was trying to be accomodating. That's fine. I appreciate it. I ended up with a long skirt, but that's incosistancy with just one merchant. I do give her credit though, I looked through her shop for any other hint of inconsistancy and I couldn't find it. Still irked me though.

I am all for clothing being able to only fit certain races, and if they implement it, it will at least bring some consistancy.

I was getting a feature alteration and threw around thousands of words to describe her eyes but rejected them all because I knew my character wouldn't feel anything all the time. So I threw out the idea all together.

What confuses me even more is on the official boards they are saying body alters will not be allowed (are not allowed?) but I know a friend of mine who got her body altered at the Artisan's Faire.

And to end this post, to be completely honest, I can do without having my floor-length skirt or my petite bodice or any of it if I knew going in it wasn't acceptable. As I stated before, I have no problem playing within the rules, but I'd like to know those rules before hand.

[Scott]

If it's long on a giant, it's long on a halfling..... If it's floorlength for a giant, it isn't for a halfling.

[Kisteira]

well.... I suppose, but you could look at it this way:

If it's long on a halfling, it doesn't mean it's long on a giant. However, if it's floor-length on a giant it most certainly is floor-length on the halfling - as you posted. So the argument isn't really ... valid? Not to be insulting.

I really didn't mind not getting it made into a floor-length skirt, if I had, I would have just waited and asked someone else. I mind the inconsistancy. I mind the flawed logic.

As I stated in my first post, this subject just irritates me. heh Heck, I haven't posted this much on any topic (I don't think?)

[Artha]

Actually, if it's floor length on a giant, then the halfling probably wouldn't be able to wear it. They'd be completely swallowed by the garment, and unable to do anything other than trip.

[Scott]

Let me see if I can't do this without being confusing....

Lets say someone has a 54 inch (length) pants, that's a pretty damn big pair of pants. However, if you have some guy that's like 20 feet tall it's not going to be big on him..... however it's still a big set of pants. Long is long no matter who it is on. Halfling or giant. Floor length isn't floor length on everyone.

Is that clear or no? It makes sense in my confusing head.

[Adhara]

When it comes to eye alterations, very few adjectives will make sense in all contects. Even gaze studiously while quite neutral would seem rather silly when totally drunk or terrified.

In fact, probably all the eye alterations I have seen so far would be out of context at some point but I think that is to be expected. When you read a book, characters are described with that kind of subjectivity (dangerous eyes, feline grace etc). They wouldn't have dangerous eyes when drunk but that's fine. The description is there to mean "most of the time, in their default state." That's how I take it. Of course if I'm wrong and all subjectiviy must be taken out of eye alterations then even thoughtfully and studiously would have to go. Only the purely physical words describing the shape and color would be allowed.

That would also mean removing sultry from the pavilion.

[Betheny]

I logged into GS one day and an alterer was standing in the Niche. Lo and behold, the spinner pointed at me. Behold my first alter.

A flowing floor-length silk cloak clasped at the throat with a ruby pierced-heart.

I'm told flowing and floor-length are things that aren't supposed to be used to describe clothing items. Heh.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Lady Daina
I ran into a snag with the feature alterers... I wanted to get something along the lines of 'a dangerous glint' in my eyes. I would have been happy with any number of things, like a slightly wild look in the eyes, or even half mad, anything that would make a person think twice before crossing you type of thing. They were all shot down because they were 'internal'. Yet I saw any number of mischievous, alluring, calculating, etc. Now if someone could explain to me how 'a dangerous glint' is any more 'internal' than these others, I'd greatly appreciate it.

I feel you on the eye thing. I wanted onyx eyes but no couldn't have them. I got:

You see Lord Anticor Rifling the War Mage.
He appears to be a Giantman of the Grot'karesh Clan.
He appears to be in the prime of life and tall. He has captivating onyx-hued eyes

The other day I see Zimzum and he has fire-flecked black onyx eyes or something dangerously close.

I was told scars were not allowed to be feature alterations, now I see tons of them. Just have to go with the flow, if you don't like what the merchant is telling you do a different item and save the one that you want for another merchant.

I was told I couldn't have an Ishan cloak because it's like a ranger's cloak or empath's cape, etc etc Fine I got something else done. Later I got this:

a ceremonial onyx and crimson Ishan greatkilt

It helped that I had a debate supported with docuemtation from the play.net site in oder to get the kilt done but the merchant eventually agreed to it.

It's all hit or miss basically, as are most things in Simu and life in general :cool:

[CrystalTears]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Lets say someone has a 54 inch (length) pants, that's a pretty damn big pair of pants. However, if you have some guy that's like 20 feet tall it's not going to be big on him..... however it's still a big set of pants. Long is long no matter who it is on. Halfling or giant. Floor length isn't floor length on everyone.


In the real world, yes. In a text based game, floor-length is just a description and means the same thing regardless of who is wearing it. If a halfling is wearing it, you wouldn't know it used to belong to an elf or giant. It's just a floor-lengthed item. It's an invalid argument to make when it will never make a difference on the character.

In most games, all clothing is one size fits all regardless of the description. Consider the garments are magical and conform to the wearer to explain it going from a big guy to a little guy and it still fitting.

[Bobmuhthol]

Here's a very simple answer to your whole floor-length debate: If it's on the ground, being held, or is in a container it isn't floor length. You lose.

[CrystalTears]

Then they should use that logic instead. But they tell the other one to people all the time.

[Adhara]

This last point seemed interesting enough for me to look up what the dictionary had to say. Under length:

<insert many other meanings here>
...
9. The vertical extent of a garment. Often used in combination: knee-length; floor-length.

I don't see why a floor-length cloak on a table would not make sense. All it means is that it vertically extends to the floor... when it is vertical, ie worn by someone.

[Soulpieced]

Victorae gestures at a black diamond moneyclip.
A black diamond moneyclip looks considerably more imposing.

[Praefection]

That just goes to show Victorae is a twit.

[Vesi]

Pet peeve: You see Soandso the Giantman. He is very tall. He is wearing halfling battle armor and a bunch of other stuff.

Ugh. Wouldn't even work on a short giantman.

Vesi

[Scott]

I think any alter with a race in it such as "Halfling leathers" or "Giantman armor," The alter should put a tag in it so only that particular race can wear it.

[Scott]

Because as Bob said.... How is it floor-length when it's on the ground, or on a table, or something. That's why GM's don't make hair beads like.... "some golden hairbeads that flow gracefully though her hair" simply because it doesn't make sense when it's not in their hair.

[CrystalTears]

I guess I should go to clothing stores and designers and tell them not to call them floor length either when they point to something on a rack or lying on a table. :rolleyes:

[Bestatte]

If a gown is 27 inches from the waist, and the length from my hips to my fee are 27 inches, then it's floor-length for me.

If, however, I give that SAME gown to my friend who measures 35 inches from hips to feet, it is no longer floor-length.

It is only floorlength if it fits a -specific measurement.-

Since the GMs can't guarantee that I'll be the only person to ever wear the thing, then it is appropriate that they reject the adjective.

I just wish they'd tweak ALL floor-length gowns to reflect the same rule.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Lady Daina
Say for instance you have a skirt in real life that reaches the floor when you wear it. It's floor length, right? So... does it suddenly grow longer or shorter when you take it off? No. It is still a floor length skirt for all intents and purposes, and to me, personally, I think it is splitting hairs to get all worked up about what to call it when it's lying on a table or on the floor. But that's just me, I guess I just don't get worked up over such things. ::shrug::

I honestly don't care what people get altered, I'd much rather see GM's make "floor-length" items then some of the fluffy pink bunny crap. However I do see a point why some merchant refuse to do certain work.

[Adhara]

Alright if floor-length is not admissible, let's examine other similar situations.

1- any body reference to length (knee, thigh etc)
2- long/short (a short skirt on a giant sold to a halfling or vice versa)
3- wide/clingy/low neckline/long or short sleeves (same giant/halfling problem)

Basically, ANY reference to cut, shape or length wouldn't make sense when passed on from race to race if we try to be consistent with this argument. You say a short skirt looks ok on the floor? Sure it does. But have a giant hold a short skirt, drop it and a halfling pick it right up. How can it still be short right?

Going from one extreme to another is never good. We could play safe and from now on only describe color, fabric and adornments but how boring is that? For once, for the sake of fun, I will be satisfied with the catch-all argument of magically resizing clothes.

[AnticorRifling]

Or you could use the arguement that I used once and it seemed to work.

The merchant at the time had the title seamstress I think.

She said something to the affect of well if I make this loose fitting on you and then you sell it to someone fatter than you how would it still be loose?

My reply: If the individual wanted to purchase the item from me the obviously the wanted for the fit that it had. If they put it on and realized that it was now "snug" fitting they would take it to a tailor or seamstress and have the sides let out. Now if you're telling me this can't be done then you don't exist.

I got my loose fitting trousers.

Tailors were around in medievil times so just tell them you're going to have the item hemmed, taken in, let out, etc.

[CrystalTears]

Nothing in GS is tailormade to any character, so that theory can be tossed out the window.

[HappyGuyJr]

You keep making the same mistake SO many others do when confronting the very name of this thread topic.

Merchents and Staff are granted a large amount of leeway when it comes to grey areas of rule vs personal opinion. And thats where your gettign hung up.

Those choices and decisions are LITTERALLY at the disgression of the staff member.

Often, a yes or no can be based on the persons warn/lockout record, whispers while in the room waiting in line (yes, merchents CAN hear everything you whisper in private), what your wearing, the amount of work you've received at the event, your general attitude, or that last cup of nasty cold coffee.

I've found that some issues can be skirted simply by being diplomatic, having an intelligent, and VALID (splitting hairs and semantics just piss staff off) reason, and being nice or respectful. Stroke their ego's a bit, fawn over them, flirt or play with them.. just don't over do it.

I have a floor length spidersilk cloak I BELIEVE was off the shelf. Its very light, and has small pockets that don't close.

The ONLY thing I've never managed to get done was my bronze scalemail kilt made into gold dragon scales
Every legitimate argument in the book was basicly ignored. We used to have dragons that landed in the forest and set the woods on fire, but revisionist history pretty much pretends it never happened. [shrug]

Never struck me as far fetched that if a dragon routinly set things on fire you would occasionally find a discarded dragon scale now and then :?:

Oh well, I have many many magnificent dragon alters allready.. but it was the first I ever wanted, and have never been able to get [crys]


Originally posted by Adhara
Alright if floor-length is not admissible, let's examine other similar situations.

1- any body reference to length (knee, thigh etc)
2- long/short (a short skirt on a giant sold to a halfling or vice versa)
3- wide/clingy/low neckline/long or short sleeves (same giant/halfling problem)

Basically, ANY reference to cut, shape or length wouldn't make sense when passed on from race to race if we try to be consistent with this argument. You say a short skirt looks ok on the floor? Sure it does. But have a giant hold a short skirt, drop it and a halfling pick it right up. How can it still be short right?

Going from one extreme to another is never good. We could play safe and from now on only describe color, fabric and adornments but how boring is that? For once, for the sake of fun, I will be satisfied with the catch-all argument of magically resizing clothes.

[Edited on 8-18-2003 by HappyGuyJr]

[Bestatte]

The arguement regarding getting a "floor-length" cloak tailored to fit that giant struck me as valid, and something I hadn't thought of in the context of Gemstone.

So I retract my previous arguement, and add this instead:

This whole idea brings the opportunity for some great RP! Halfling sells her perfectly fitting floor-length skirt to a giantwoman...

And the giantwoman brings it to a character who is being RPed as someone with a bit of sewing skill - and who tailors (not alters!) it for the giantwoman, adding strips of fabric to the hem and letting out the waist so it now fits that giantwoman just as perfectly as it did the halfling.

If there were people who had more interest in RP than "advancing" who'd be willing to take up the role as one of the town's many seamstresses/tailors, how cool would this be! The tailor can set fees for this work, and RP out actually doing the work..

Would people in Gemstone be willing to pay coin for "virtual" work that they don't really need according to the code? Or are people so stuck on code that they'd throw RP out the window and just pretend that it was already done?