Politics: Bush's house of cards...

[Ravenstorm]

...continues to crumble.

No Virginia, there are no Al-Quaeda ties. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5441042)

Yes Rummy, you did break international law. (http://msnbc.msn.com/id/5226957/)

And everyone is getting fed up. (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=5440943&sec tion=news)

Including the Iraqis. (http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm)

So what can poor Dubya do to distract people away from how horribly he's doing? Work to divide the country by making bigotry a capaign issue.

Dear Pope, help! (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=politicsNews&storyID=541731 8)

I knew you were voting for me anyway but... (http://www.reuters.com/newsArticle.jhtml?type=domesticNews&storyID=544046 7)

Even conservative Bob Barr, the author of DOMA, is against the amendment. After all, separation of Church and State issues aside, Republicans - last I heard - were for states' rights and not federal fiat. And especially not via the Constitution.

Yes indeed. What a great president and leader he is. I wonder what Ken Starr is up to these days. We may have work for him again.

How sad that Bush has brought our country to this state of affairs.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Raven -

http://baddaker-studios.net/macros/yourprob_is_obvious.jpg

--------

http://www.georgewbush.com/images/downloads/GWB_econ_banner.jpg

http://www.georgewbush.com/images/downloads/GWB_logo_350.gif

[Back]

Thats not a bad idea, Raven. We could grassroots up some cash to hire him. Excluding the hours needed to do so.

Bet there might be one or two high-profile contributors.

[Weedmage Princess]

Heh...judging by the polls and such, it sure doesn't look like Bush will see another term as president...

It would really say a lot about Kerry if he doesn't beat Bush in November.

[Hulkein]

The way I see it WeedMage is that right now it can't really get much worse for Bush. We have the media focusing on the prison scandal in Iraq, the constant fighting still in Iraq, and all negative things, yet Kerry still has no advantage.

All it takes is the capture of Bin Laden to pretty much put him back around 60% at least in the polls.

[Weedmage Princess]

I have to disagree...it can easily get worse for him. All you need is for more American POWs to be killed, us lingering in Iraq longer than he said we would, the economy to dive down some more...yeah, people wouldn't take to that stuff too well. I'd go out on a limb and say he'd lose some current supporters.

[Marl]

who else here is part of the conspiracy theorists who think they already have Bin Laden but arent going to announce it yet until right before poll time?

[Weedmage Princess]

I don't know about that...heh.

I mean, think about it. If they catch bin Laden, I'd think they'd want to flaunt that IMMEDIATELY. He'll see such a surge in his rankings with the polls, it'd be ridiculous. Retribution finally for one of the worst terrorist attacks we've experienced on US soil and the leader of one of the top terrorist organizations in the world; I think that's something EVERY American wants to see.

I'm not sure how much "true" support Kerry has to be honest. I think a good number of people are voting for him because A) They just want Bush gone and/or B) They want to vote democratic.


[Edited on 6-17-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Hulkein]

Well the economy is going up Weedmage... if anything that's another very feasible positive for Bush.

Kerry is already losing his opportunity to bash Bush on the economy.

[Delirium]

I cant see anyone winning an election just cause they hate Bush. If Kerry doesnt have enough positives to like, people will say they will vote for him but still sit on their asses come election day. Unless Kerry does something to show he can handle things without just saying what is popular at the moment than i doubt he gets elected. Maybe he can change this and maybe he cant. It should be intresting either way though.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Heh...judging by the polls and such, it sure doesn't look like Bush will see another term as president...

It would really say a lot about Kerry if he doesn't beat Bush in November.

It really says a lot about Kerry that he can't gain any substantial lead with the firestorm Bush is currently under.

If the Democrats want a chance in November.. ditch the super-liberal Kerry and get someone more moderate. Someone who didn't spit on the entire armed forces in the 70's and who didn't vote against almost every weapon system that came up for a vote. Someone who doesn't already say he plans on raising taxes. Someone who doesn't plan on making 10 million jobs.. when only 5 million people want them. Someone who doesn't make

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Someone who doesn't make

... You alright old man? Someone want to check in on Park? Sounds like he passed out in the middle of a rant.

[Parkbandit]

I fell down....

I actually thought I edited that out.. but alas.. I did not.

I AM amused at all the Kerry supporters though (Well.. both of them) that have nothing positive to say about their candidate except that he isn't Bush. The only way they promote their candidate is to say "Yea, well look how Bush screwed up here!"

[Weedmage Princess]

Personally, I wish Hillary would have run. I think she'd make a damn fine president.

Oh dear I sense a shitstorm coming on now... <flees>

[Edaarin]

Dear Weedmage

Please refer to my signature.

[i remember halloween]

hillary? what a waste of life.

she can't win under the democrat ticket. mark my word, the first minority or woman president will be a republican.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by i remember halloween]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Personally, I wish Hillary would have run. I think she'd make a damn fine president.

Oh dear I sense a shitstorm coming on now... <flees> It sure would add a bit of excitement heading up to the election. Kerry is a no-show and has been a no-show. He hasn't had much of any positive light reflected on him since he started his run for office. Bush is and always will be a complete and utter moron, who will more than likely steal this election because he has no viable competition.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Someone who didn't spit on the entire armed forces in the 70's and who didn't vote against almost every weapon system that came up for a vote. Someone who doesn't already say he plans on raising taxes. Someone who doesn't plan on making 10 million jobs.. when only 5 million people want them. Someone who doesn't make

You know PB... You really need to stop listening to Bush attack ads to get your facts because really, you sound quite foolish when you just parrot them back.

Please, quote Kerry exactly and point out where he spits on the entire military. Were atrocities performed by American troops in Viet Nam? Damn right there were and they're well documented. Exactly how these things are now being uncovered in Iraq: murders, rapes, etc. Did Kerry blame the entire military for the actions of a few? Go ahead and quote where he did so please. I'll wait. While you do that:

Have some FACTS about... (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=147)
...Kerry's record on weapon systems. (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=177)

And some more about taxes. (http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=167)

And the deal about 10 million jobs. (http://www.factcheck.org/SpecialReports.aspx?docID=178)

I highly recommend factcheck.org for all your muck raking needs. They document quite well exactly what claims are total lies: from all candidates. So instead of watching a political commercial, try using a reputable news agency to back up your claims.


Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
It would really say a lot about Kerry if he doesn't beat Bush in November.

Unfortunately, that's a very real possibility. Elections are just as much popularity contests and Kerry is not a very personable fellow. Someone like Reagan or Clinton, someone with personality and a winning smile, would trounce Bush. Or maybe even Dean, had he not self destructed and fizzled. It will be interesting to see how his choice of VP influences things.

Raven

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[Valthissa]

[ So instead of watching a political commercial, try using a reputable news agency to back up your claims.

Raven [/quote]

I submit to you that there are no reputable news agencies.

Now there is a lot of difference in the degree to which news organizations go in order to sell you their product - but I think unless you seek out alternate forms of information (factcheck is a reasonable source, so is spinsanity) you will be getting biased news.

C/Valth

[Latrinsorm]

Kerry's going to lose. Unless he gets an unbelievable VP.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Kerry's going to lose. Unless he gets an unbelievable VP.

I'm up for Powell switching parties and being his running mate. :lol:

[Weedmage Princess]

I agree with Raven there, on Kerry that is. To be totally honest, I don't like EITHER of our candidates running. As much as Dean goofed it a few months back, I'd much rather have seen him in office than the two running now.

I also believe Hillary would have been a better Democratic candidate than Kerry. That's just my personal belief. Say what you will about Bill Clinton, but he did a damn fine job running this country. I think we'd see a lot of the same results if his wife were elected.

A part of me also agrees with Halloween unfortunately. I think it'll be quite a while before enough people in high places get their head out of their ass and allow a woman or person of color to become president...and I do believe said person would have to be a Republican.

[Wezas]

I'd vote for Bill as first man.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I agree with Raven there, on Kerry that is. To be totally honest, I don't like EITHER of our candidates running.NomAH fAH PresidAHnt?

I don't understand how anyone can consider Kerry in any way better than Bush (alpine psuedosports enthusiasts notwithstanding).

edit: to add a word, and Wezas FIX YOUR SIG PLZ.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by Latrinsorm]

[Hulkein]

Hillary will run in '08 if Bush wins, or so I believe.

[Weedmage Princess]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I agree with Raven there, on Kerry that is. To be totally honest, I don't like EITHER of our candidates running.NomAH fAH PresidAHnt?

I don't understand how anyone can consider Kerry in any way better than Bush (alpine psuedosports enthusiasts notwithstanding).

edit: to add a word, and Wezas FIX YOUR SIG PLZ.

[Edited on 6-17-2004 by Latrinsorm]

Nope, this is what Ravenstorm said that I agree with:

>>Unfortunately, that's a very real possibility. Elections are just as much popularity contests and Kerry is not a very personable fellow. Someone like Reagan or Clinton, someone with personality and a winning smile, would trounce Bush<<

The bolded section in particular.

[Skirmisher]

Bush's handlers have done a good job of smearing Kerry. I will vote for him, but as others have said...he needs a strong vp and to come out of the defensive crouch he's been in or risks losing this whole thing.

I found it so interesting when they started talking about MCain as a potential running mate as i have been saying for a long time i'd vote for him if he was running against Kerry. Alas I guess he won't do that.


I would really love to see my Senator Jon Corzine run. I wasn't to excited when he began his initial run for senator as he was this rich wall stret guy but he has shown himself to be a stand up guy. He votes his mind and hell, he is not beholden to any special interests.

Hilary might be a decent VP candidate, but the incredible smear campaign conducted against her makes that doubtful for now at least.

[Back]

Pee Wee Herman could run for President against Bush and I'd vote for him.

I would have rather voted The Ambassador Carol Moseley Brown into office, but hey, Kerry works. I like his kick ass take names attitude towards the current administration. Though, I think he could kick it up a notch.

Its hard for me to believe anything the current administration says. I was against the war from the start, but I was hoping they were right about at least one thing. So far, not one thing they claimed as a reason for the war in Iraq has been true. Its a joke. Those good old boys in office right now will say anything to keep the power. Thought they were supposed to be public servants. I see them serving themselves and their monetary interests.

[GSTamral]

This thread is truly comical.

You won't find too many people who will disagree that moving into Iraq the way we did was a mistake. It absolutely was a mistake. To just sit and harp on it however, is only a further showing of lack of judgement and a sense of political apropos that belies the facts. I can honestly say that I cannot take seriously the claims of anyone who puts gay marriage at such a forefront in personal belief. I am pro-gay marriage, but I couldnt give two shits if it ever happened.

We do have a vastly improving economy. Job creation and gross domestic product are at a higher level of accelerating growth than during any time in the Clinton or Bush Sr. era. In fact, the economic rebound since October of 2003 is matched only by that of the Reagan rebound. We do have people realizing that the Clinton bubble burst, and that his theories (as well as most socialist/liberal theories in general) on taxation created a short spurt of economic growth bound for disaster due to the effects of crowding out by government spending.

I believe Kerry will win this election. Strategic Communications for my company also believes this. As a result, for the first time in 17 years, we have begun a series of layoffs of consultants. We are hoping at this point that the layoffs do not affect company employees, however, who knows what the future holds, and unfortunately, I do not hold a position high enough to see what is being decided, let alone be a part of it. I do know that an election for Kerry will create jobs. Manufacturing jobs, by form of higher tariffs against foreign goods. We will also lose many educated white collar jobs. While the overall number of jobs will undoubtedly increase, it will be three steps backward in America moving forward to becoming a more service oriented economy.

The way his staff has handled Iraq, most people would agree that Bush has surrounded himself with warmongering hawks. What has happened in Iraq is essentially an international filibuster against US policy, one that I will not judge, but in deference to being culturally relativistic, is an issue I am sure many people feel justified in believing either side.

Kerry's almost Teddy Roosevelt like isolationist employment policies will positively shatter middle cap companies in the United States who rely on foreign satellite offices for programming and design support. And his planning on repealing the inheritance tax will finish the utter destruction of Mom and Pop businesses as well.

I can't say I am voting for Bush without reservations, I think he has done a whole hell of a lot wrong in his tenure. But the same goes for Kerry, who is a Kennedy at heart. The same Kennedy who, for his own political gain, assassinated the aspirations of one of the most genuinely intelligent and productive presidents of our time in Carter.

It's a decision between voting for an arrogant right wing christian cocksucker, or a slimy lying weasel, and my vote goes to the arrogant cocksucker.

[Warriorbird]

It makes me sad that I don't have a candidate I feel I can vote for.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by GSTamral
You won't find too many people who will disagree that moving into Iraq the way we did was a mistake. It absolutely was a mistake.

Except, of course, that Bush doesn't once claim any single mistake has ever been made by him or his administration.

[/quote]I can honestly say that I cannot take seriously the claims of anyone who puts gay marriage at such a forefront in personal belief.[/quote]

Thank you, I agree. Bush pushing the anti-gay amendment this election because he's a miserable failure with just about everything else was, in fact, one of the major points of my post. Glad we finally see eye to eye on something.

As to my own beliefs about the issue? Civil rights are indeed an incredibly important issue: more so than the economy. See, this country was founded on freedom and equality. Every single group alive in America has fought and bled for those two concepts. It all started with freedom and equality from England. And since then, every color, every race, every religion, every sexuality, women, have had to fight tooth and nail to get anything close to being on par with white, male, straight, Christian America.

And sadly, most still truly aren't. Equality comes hard, each little baby step often needing years and decades of effort. It's built on the backs of the groups who struggled before them for their own version of it. And despite it coming so slowly and with such difficulty, it is so easily lost. All it requires is one group appealing to the worst of human nature: fear and hatred of 'the other'. Of what's different.

One little scare tactic - something like 'destroying the sanctity of marriage' for instance - can turn the tide. One only has to look at the sudden abundance of states with amendments being passed through their legislature banning same sex marriage. Except, and this is the big problem, most of them don't only address marriage. Civil unions are also being banned. And in some of them, such as Virginia's:


A civil union, partnership contract or other arrangement between persons of the same sex purporting to bestow the privileges or obligations of marriage is prohibited. Any such civil union, partnership contract or other arrangement entered into by persons of the same sex in another state or jurisdiction shall be void in all respects in Virginia and any contractual rights created thereby shall be void and unenforceable.

That goes way beyond a law to keep marriage between men and women. That's the worst bigoted, religiously guided bullshit that Bush is trying to get re-elected on.

Maybe if it cost you money you'd care more.

Raven

[Back]

Originally posted by GSTamral
This thread is truly comical.

It is. As is the current state of American politics. What we really need is a real leader. A real inspiration. Someone who can move us ahead through societal evolution. We need someone with fresh, new, good ideas about how all of our problems can be solved instead of wallowing in this muck.

[Ravenstorm]

I was going to just edit my post but it got too long and too much time has passed in any case so I decided to just add a new one. While it's off topic, I didn't want to leave it with the following quote being interpreted in various ways by various people"


Originally posted by Ravenstorm
That's the worst bigoted, religiously guided bullshit that Bush is trying to get re-elected on.

My comment is not a barb directed at all religions. In fact, quite a few religious groups, Christian and not, have publically come out in favor of gay marriage and have denounced the federal marriage amendment. It's only the more extreme, fundamentalist ones (including the Catholic Church and Orthodox Jews) doing so while some others are brave enough to even be willing to risk schism over the issue.

Indeed, my opinion of Christianity as a whole has risen greatly since the Episcopalians consecrated Gene Robinson. And just recently, the Canadian Anglican church voted to 'affirm the integrity and sanctity of committed adult same-sex relationships' (even if it isn't exactly a blessing, it's a step in the right direction). And then there are the Unitarians who were charged for sanctifying gay marriages in NY even after the mayor was prohibited from doing so. And there are Methodists who kept a lesbian as a pastor while Lutherans are now appointing 'non celibate gay clergy'.

As far as I'm concerned, this is the best PR Christianity has ever gotten. I'm truly amazed that all these groups are willing to grow and change, even when doing nothing is much easier, because they believe it is the right thing to do. It really reinforces the point that no, all Christians are not closed minded bigots. Seeing as how the ones who are are usually the loudest, it's sometimes hard to remember that.

So to wrap it up, any of you working to change your church from the inside, more power to you. And thank you.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Please Raven, if the Bush admin was for gay marriage there wouldn't be one single thread made by you bashing them.. let alone the thirty or so you've posted thus far.

[Ravenstorm]

Sorry but you are quite wrong about that, Hulkein. See, Kerry isn't for gay marriage either, though he is for civil unions. So while I do disagree with him on the issue, he is at least willing to provide a civil alternative complete with all legal ramifications. But before gay marriage was even a major issue, I was bashing Bush for trying to justify an invasion of Iraq. He does, after all, provide his opponents so many targets to take aim at. In a way it's fortunate he doesn't have any real redeeming attributes...

Actually, I am forced to admit I did agree with him once: I've been saying for years that we should go back to the moon. I'm a huge proponent of space exploration and get absolutely giddy at the very idea of watching a live moon landing. If Dubya could be remembered for just one thing, it should be for 'presidentially' setting a goal of going to Mars. Even if he'd pay for it by running up an even greater deficit. I don't care though.


I’m a space cowboy
Bet you weren’t ready for that
I’m a space cowboy
I’m sure you know where it’s at
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah

Raven

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I didn't become interested in this thread until you said it was a good decision to go back to the moon, and reach towards Mars, Raven. I think it is the biggest, most selfish waste of money one can think of.

[Ravenstorm]

I don't think scientific knowledge is ever a waste. And many technological advances come out of space research. Plus, humanity needs larger than life events to dream about.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Selfish and wasteful?

Sounds like the same response Columbus got when talking about getting funding for a trip over the Atlantic ocean, right?

[Edited on 6-18-2004 by Hulkein]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Yes, I do think it is selfish and wasteful. I don't see any real benefit, when we have so many problems in our own country, let alone the entire world.

[Hulkein]

There will always be problems. If 'problems' at home stopped exploration then we'd be stuck in the bronze-age still.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I don't know, I think there is a difference between exploring the world we live on and spending billions to explore space. I don't see it as a necessity, which is why I don't see how your Columbus example really compares.

[Hulkein]

That's because you're not looking at it the way they did... Hindsight is always 20/20. To them, over the ocean there WAS NO world. We at least know there are other worlds.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

If we didn't know Mars existed, I'd actually be for exploration. I'd feel the same if I lived back then, I'd be curious to know if there was something beyond the ocean. I just don't see the point in spending such a huge amount of money to research Mars, or go back to the moon when there are more pressing issues.

[Ravenstorm]

In the other thread 'Space', there's a link to a small sampling of NASA 'spinoffs': technological advancements and inventions that came about as a direct result of space research. The introductory section about jobs, taxes and such is also rather interesting.

Raven

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by GSTamral
You won't find too many people who will disagree that moving into Iraq the way we did was a mistake. It absolutely was a mistake.

Except, of course, that Bush doesn't once claim any single mistake has ever been made by him or his administration.


Raven

This would be incorrect. I could google you the sites ala you, but I have heard that many in the adminstration have said "Mistakes have happened".

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Indeed, my opinion of Christianity as a whole has risen greatly since the Episcopalians consecrated Gene Robinson. And just recently, the Canadian Anglican church voted to 'affirm the integrity and sanctity of committed adult same-sex relationships' (even if it isn't exactly a blessing, it's a step in the right direction). And then there are the Unitarians who were charged for sanctifying gay marriages in NY even after the mayor was prohibited from doing so. And there are Methodists who kept a lesbian as a pastor while Lutherans are now appointing 'non celibate gay clergy'.

Raven

So self serving. You've gained respect for Christianity because they've addressed the gay issue...

Even while more and more child molestation cases have been uncovered in the past 5 years. All the cover ups.. all the denials...

Too funny. I certainly wouldn't consider the past 5 years to be very good PR for Christianity.

[Sean]

Religion in general is a self serving tool. Its a moral check and balance.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tijay
Religion in general is a self serving tool. Its a moral check and balance.

Religion is what you make of it. To me, it's nothing more than the biggest tax scheme in America. But to say that Religion is having great PR because of it's acceptance of a very small minority group.. while having huge legal battles and issues.. is laughable at best.

[Sean]

I agree with you. Being fairly non religious at all, I guess I just view all religions as self serving for the most part. So if someone finds one more appealing because they better serve their individual interests I don't see it as anything new.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
So self serving. You've gained respect for Christianity because they've addressed the gay issue...

Most things are self serving. And yes, when someone makes a step in the right direction, they should get credit for it. Just as when they screw up, they should get blasted. In this case, it's evidence that at least some of Christianity is beginning to step out of the middle ages.

And did you notice which denomination I specifically left out of what faint praise I gave? They're still trying to reclaim the glory days when they basically ruled the known world and no one could touch them.

They, however, do not alone make up Christianity.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I have heard that many in the adminstration have said "Mistakes have happened".It's the miracle of the passive voice, innovated by the first President Bush. There's a lot of difference between the phrases "I made a mistake" and "A mistake was made".

[Ravenstorm]

And it loses even more when poor Colin Powell, flunky and fall guy, gets ordered to do it.

Raven