Rogue CMANs

[Kaerika]

Ooookay, I'm going to retrain my CMANs. There was a lot of discussion about this in my Armor Training thread. Currently I am unlearning coup de grace, because as much fun as I have with it, it's basically just a toy (and a very expensive one at 30 points). I need some new toys.

I've got rank 5 in groin kick and rank 3 in sucker punch. I'm an open ambush two-hander rogue in metal breastplate. I don't do guild training. I have 70 points to play with, if I drop everything.

Combat mobility is a definite, based on multiple recommendations in the other thread.

Any opinions on cheapshots? I'm never going to do the guild work, so it's the only way I'll get knee bash and swift kick. How is swift kick? The only time I've seen it was a capped rogue using it on things in their 40's, so obviously it was super effective. I like sucker punch, but it doesn't force stance changes as often as I'd like. I'm wondering if I master cheapshots this way, I could use knee bash instead of groin kick (even though that's super fun) and swift kick instead of sucker punch. That would free up more points.

Side by side is garbage, right? It only works when grouped with others that also have the skill? I'm almost always hunting with at least one other person, so if it just gave bonuses for that, it might be worth it. There's so little info on this one, that I can find.

If cheapshots can meet my needs for stance changing and knocking things down, what should I do with the extra points I'll have from dropping groin kick and sucker punch? Load up on the first couple ranks of some generic things like weapon spec, combat movement, focus and toughness? I'm not a huge fan of spending cman points to make some random number go up by 2, but it might be worth it, I dunno.

Thanks for any input!

[Dragon Dreadnaught]

I believe rogues can learn feint.
Feint is an amazing cman as it can open up a completely defensive critter into full offensive with a 3 Rt cman.

The roundtimes of the critter/player can vary from a minor 1 second to a decent max of 8 seconds.

Endrolls depend on the stance forced into. If you want something in full offensive, endrolls of 150+ are needed. Minor successes still give them Rt and move their stance slightly. However, there is a 'cooldown' on how many times you can feint something. The RT from the previous feint must be gone for you to feint them again.

It's a solid offensive cman, only downside is that it does no damage on it's own. But it's great for keeping things locked in RT paired with disarm, knee bash, or any other major RT inducing cman.

Oh and with every cman, master this to provide a uphunting ability as Rank 4 doesn't cut it.

[Kaerika]

I was considering feint, but is that much more effective than swift kick? If I learned swift kick through cheapshots, I'd also get knee bash.

[mgoddess]

I find Toughness is nearly a must, especially when playing a non-beefcake race. First rank gets you +15 health, with each additional rank another +10 (for a total of +35). For all three ranks, it costs 24 points.

[DaCapn]

Dirtkick will always be my favorite offensive CM. It's hard to ignore a stance independent maneuver.

[Middian]

Cunning defense is a great choice, especially since you stand out in the open. It always helps against the cmans thrown at you and it only costs 20 to rank 5. I do love mobility as well, which only costs 15 points. Also +10 AS with specialization is a nice constant effect, but does cost 30.

[DoctorUnne]

I second feint. The big difference between feint and swiftkick is feint puts the target in RT and swiftkick doesn't, plus it's two seconds faster. What's the point of putting something in offensive when they're just going to pound you while you're sitting there in offensive in 5 seconds of RT?

Feint also works against everything, including undead. A lot of rogue cmans won't work against most undead.

Surge of strength is another all-around good one that most people can make good use of. +16 AS and helps a ton with encumbrance.

The first rank of toughness is nice since you get the +15. I don't know if the second two ranks are worth it, unless you're a race with low HP (in which case you're probably better served with surge anyways). I don't encounter situations very often where I escape a situation with fewer than 25 hp.

Combat focus is a good one to dump any remaining points into because TD is a rogue's biggest weakness.

Cheapshots you're getting solely for kneebash. It's superior to all of the others. It doesn't work on a lot of creatures though which makes it of limited use I think if you're going to be spending 30 points on it.

[Dragon Dreadnaught]

Surge of strength is another all-around good one that most people can make good use of. +16 AS and helps a ton with encumbrance.

I don't recommend mastering Surge though, two ranks is pretty good for general purpose. that's +10 STR whenever you need it.
Although if you don't want to get anything else, the more ranks you have, the shorter the cool down is. I think the shortest is 2:30 or 2 minutes even.

[Kaerika]

Thank you very much for all the advice in this thread! <3

[stickyfingers]

offensive/AS purposes:
surge 3 ranks(more if you want)
wspec 2-3 ranks early on

defensive purposes(depending on weakness):
focus
toughness
cmovement
cunning defense
If you don't like getting just +2 from something its at least a temporary option you have while to place points while waiting for more points skill in order to learn higher levels in main skills.


Utility:
mobility
disarm

Cheapshots are great, although I strongly recommend starting or eventually doing it in guild. Its saves you the points and is better once mastered(or almost mastered even). But mastering from cman is worth its they only way you'll consider getting it, since its gives the same basic functionality of several other cmans all in one.

[Gibreficul]

feint is better than the combination of kneebash and swiftkick.