Hurling rogue

[Gravebane525]

just cause its the only type of rogue I've never played before, I'm thinking about trying it out.

my question I guess is it possible to play a low level char throwing daggers or handaxes? is there any relatively cheap (10m or less) throwing item that might make it easier to deal with (I've heard of returning and bandoleers?)

if its not possible to do it at low levels, what level should I try and get to before switching?

[Asha]

Returning weapons are more like 4 or 5 times your budget and bandoliers are like 6 or 7.
It's really hard at first since you can only really buy a fuck-ton of 0-4x ammo from the weaponry. That's pretty expensive.
Also without a returner, you are left there without the DS of holding a weapon straight after throwing. I hear returners technically never leave your hand.

[Middian]

Unlike archery, isn't it harder to loose a thrown weapon? Or is it about the same rate as loosing the arrows/bolts?

[Gravebane525]

Returning weapons are more like 4 or 5 times your budget and bandoliers are like 6 or 7.
It's really hard at first since you can only really buy a fuck-ton of 0-4x ammo from the weaponry. That's pretty expensive.
Also without a returner, you are left there without the DS of holding a weapon straight after throwing. I hear returners technically never leave your hand.

I know you can fletch darts, I done it on another char, but darts seam like a pretty lame weapon, would rather throw knives. I found some returning weapons sell for like 18m a ways back, more enchant then I wanted but I'm not sure if there is such a thing as a 4x or so returner. and yea found one bandolier that was way more.

so if no returner and no bandolier, hurling is pretty much out of the question as being a decent way to hunt?

[RSR]

Not at all. You can get by carrying 5 or so weapons. As long as you don't stick all of your weapons into a creature without killing it, you'll be able to pick up the first few while the last ones are still stuck in the 'you can't reach that' phase.

And no, there is zero chance of losing a hurled weapon the way you can lose arrows. Hurled weapons can disappear into the room and you'll have to search them out (giving you RT), but they don't disappear into the ether the way arrows sometimes do.

-Richard.

[Buckwheet]

The best thrown weapon to start with is in the landing.

a jade-inlaid blued steel javelin

I believe they are under 100 silvers, eblade them and they are a very fine thrown weapon.

The second best, in my opinion, is an ash-shafted vine-carved partisan. It weighs 2 more pounds than the javelin, but costs half as much I believe. So you would get a warrior sheath and carry 5 javelins. This would only be 15 pounds of weight. But if you are starting new, do the 2h/30 day route and get to 20ish in that time period. You won't be hitting very many eyes with the javelin without the proper training. Not 100% sure, but rumors are 402/404 help quite a bit with aiming.

[Middian]

For a commercial: I have "a mithglin javelin" that is Exceptionally Crit weighted in my shop (Rm# 3446) in Icemule. It also has an incredible amount of uses left.

[Gravebane525]

The best thrown weapon to start with is in the landing.

a jade-inlaid blued steel javelin

I believe they are under 100 silvers, eblade them and they are a very fine thrown weapon.

The second best, in my opinion, is an ash-shafted vine-carved partisan. It weighs 2 more pounds than the javelin, but costs half as much I believe. So you would get a warrior sheath and carry 5 javelins. This would only be 15 pounds of weight. But if you are starting new, do the 2h/30 day route and get to 20ish in that time period. You won't be hitting very many eyes with the javelin without the proper training. Not 100% sure, but rumors are 402/404 help quite a bit with aiming.

yea I cant get to 20ish in 30 days... I'm lucky if I get to 10-15ish... plus it always kinda bugged me to do that from a RP standpoint. hell I've played on and off since it was free on AOL and my only char to make lord did it because the change from GS3 to GS4 pushed him up.

anyways, I'll look into spears and javelins, I'm trying to play this guy with out feeding him cash from another char so we see how it goes. he's also in RR so access to alot of things are beyond his means for a while.

[Archigeek]

I have a little rogue in RR who mostly throws whatever feras weapons he can find in the pawnshop, if you can view your weapons as disposable, hurling becomes do-able without a returner, though it's a bit more laborious.

[Buckwheet]

yea I cant get to 20ish in 30 days... I'm lucky if I get to 10-15ish... plus it always kinda bugged me to do that from a RP standpoint. hell I've played on and off since it was free on AOL and my only char to make lord did it because the change from GS3 to GS4 pushed him up.

anyways, I'll look into spears and javelins, I'm trying to play this guy with out feeding him cash from another char so we see how it goes. he's also in RR so access to alot of things are beyond his means for a while.

Obviously its your choice. But realistically you are picking one of the paths that has some of the most expensive toys in the game without readily available other options. On top of that you are putting a handicap on yourself by not using the tools available to you to ease the pain of this path.

I wish you luck.

[Gravebane525]

yea I never really had any "toys" they all out of my price range for the most part. once I found out they were out of my price range it becomes a question of can I do it with out them, and if its worth the RP of going with out them. if the char was a warrior I might go ohe/throwing but as a rogue I want to pick one choice and stick to it.

I'ma give it a shot for my month is out with some junk weapons just to see how it works, if not I'ma go with some smuggler like weapon, axe or cutlass and buckler, I thought about the gaff's sold in RR but polearm training just to expensive for a rogue.

[Gibreficul]

it can be done.

Hunt something that carries something you can hurl back at it....

Otherwise, yea, a javelin is a great thrown weapon.

Darts are useless.

[Cap'nDrak]

My only words of wisdom I can impart, as someone that loves thrown weapons to his core...

Never throw something you don't want swung back at you.

Because it will happen more often than you really want it to.

[JustDan]

Figure I'll just resurrect this one rather than make my own...

With the forthcoming fixskills, I'm seriously considering adding hurled weapons into my rogue's build. Can any hurling rogues post their training, so I can get an idea of how to get a workable build out of it? I know Gib does it pretty successfully, and that there are others, but damned if I can find anyone who's posted their training info.

Thanks,
JustDan

[Gizmo]

Hurled Rogue:

See Returning Dagger; See Also Chronomage Dagger.

/end training plan

[JustDan]

Hurled Rogue:

See Returning Dagger; See Also Chronomage Dagger.

/end training plan

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?t=71833

Yep, got that far. Now just want to run some numbers and play with the build a little bit, and wanted to see what's been effective for others out there.

[Buckwheet]

Here is my post cap hurling rogue. I use bandoliers and love it.



Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 302 202
Shield Use.........................| 302 202
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Thrown Weapons.....................| 316 216
Ambush.............................| 158 58
Physical Fitness...................| 302 202
Dodging............................| 403 303
Arcane Symbols.....................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 152 52
Harness Power......................| 150 50
Elemental Mana Control.............| 90 20
Disarming Traps....................| 406 306
Picking Locks......................| 403 303
Perception.........................| 302 202
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 140 40

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 30


With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a vultite handaxe into flight.
You throw a vultite handaxe at an Ithzir adept!
AS: +565 vs DS: +417 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +75 = +254
... and hit for 72 points of damage!
Solid strike caves the Ithzir adept's skull in, resulting in instant death!

[You have 5 kills remaining.]
The Ithzir adept clutches at his wounds as he falls, the life fading from his eyes.
The Ithzir adept no longer bristles with energy.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding an Ithzir adept suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves an Ithzir adept.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
An Ithzir adept becomes solid again.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around an Ithzir adept.
The bright luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
The silvery luminescence fades from around an Ithzir adept.
The vultite handaxe is deflected to one side, sailing to the ground.
Roundtime: 4 sec.

Edit: I am migrating down to 40 ranks of ambush. Putting the points into MIU/Scroll Reading for better spellburst performance. The AS is a bit older, as I can do 580 sustained in OTF right now. The higher MIU/SR will allow me to wear mobility eventually without bursting. With your extra post cap XP, I would think you would do better since you have 117 availability and self cast 120.

[Gibreficul]

Figure I'll just resurrect this one rather than make my own...

With the forthcoming fixskills, I'm seriously considering adding hurled weapons into my rogue's build. Can any hurling rogues post their training, so I can get an idea of how to get a workable build out of it? I know Gib does it pretty successfully, and that there are others, but damned if I can find anyone who's posted their training info.

Thanks,
JustDan

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=1298926&postcount=52

That's basically what I roll with.

A couple of ya are considering the thrown route this fixskills, apparently. One is looking at going ranged/thrown, which I think is double dipping from the same pool. I'm actually debating the same with Baswab in Shattered. I don't name drop, but we had a pretty lengthy conversation about that just yesterday. On the flip side, specific to the above posted build, the beauty of a rogue doing thrown is that it, along with edged weapons is the lowest cost weapon skills for a rogue, and you can pick and choose which to use depending on what you're trying to kill. If it has a shield, you swing, if it doesn't, you hurl. Most of what you need to max hurled AS should already be trained (perception and CM.) Other advantages are if you are a LFM master, you should have a stockpile of vials with acid, fire, and lightning, and alchemy sneezing vials add yet another option if you have access to them. The AvD on them is ridiculously high (about +100) so even at 1x thrown, you're probably going to at least get a hit with them.

The bad side is the chance to lose whatever you hurl, or the chance to have it picked up and used against you. Also, the forging system does not have any thrown weapon glyphs. The only thing I know of that a player can create that is a true thrown weapon is through the fletching system... darts. They're... less than spectacular. IN fact, on a scale of 1-10, 10 being awesome, 1 being suck, they probably rank about 0.5. Dagger DFs are better.

All that said, at least on Gibreficul, I wouldn't drop those ranks for anything. Having a returning dagger, the red-headed stepchild of the returners, I know how to exploit it in the right situations. It adds flavor to my hunts. Vials are fun to toss around too, and most people have no clue what hit them if I so choose to use them against players.

I hope I helped... feel free to pick my brain if you have specifics to ask. I know I'm not the top authority on thrown weapons, but at least I have real field experience with them.

[Archigeek]

Gib is right on the beauty of edged and hurling fitting together, and it applies to warriors too, though I don't think shields slow me down much with hurling. In any case though, it gives you nice options. Add in twc and miu and suddenly you can snipe, ambush, or be a walking frickin' ginsu.

[JustDan]

Thanks, guys. I ran the numbers last night and talked to Gib a bit on LNet, and it looks like I'm going to give it a go. Got a returning weapon, so I won't have to worry about that aspect of it. I'll post my intended training plan to let you guys pick and poke at it when I get home tonight.

I know Kerl does it, but he's a warrior and that doesn't count... would this sort of build do OK in the Scatter?

[Gibreficul]

considering your returner is... a chrono dagger... I don't know. Remember the dagger has shit DFs. I pay attention to the "junk" weapon drops I get. Any discus, I save. Sometimes I'd even load up on javelins from kobolds and eblade them, or if I need something blessed, the rogue guild handaxes usually work pretty well for something you can easily replace. Get a warrior sheath/scabbard/harness or 2. Total necessity for a hurler looking get the max benefits from the skill.

:club:

[Archigeek]

A chronomage dagger should do alright vs everything except Destroyers

[Buckwheet]

A chronomage dagger should do alright vs everything except Destroyers

I almost bought the dagger until I did some tests against griffins in OTF:

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a stiletto into flight.
You throw a stiletto at a war griffin!
AS: +519 vs DS: +245 with AvD: +9 + d100 roll: +80 = +363
... and hit for 36 points of damage!
Slash across right eye!
Hope the left is working.
The stiletto is deflected to one side, sailing to the ground.

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a stiletto into flight.
You throw a stiletto at a war griffin!
AS: +594 vs DS: +289 with AvD: +9 + d100 roll: +25 = +339
... and hit for 34 points of damage!
Slash across right eye!
Hope the left is working.

With a quick flick of your wrist, you deftly send a stiletto into flight.
You throw a stiletto at a war griffin!
AS: +594 vs DS: +243 with AvD: +9 + d100 roll: +26 = +386
... and hit for 34 points of damage!
Well aimed shot almost removes an eye!

So then I stanced down a bit and used my handaxe.

You throw a vultite handaxe at a war griffin!
AS: +534 vs DS: +334 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +45 = +277
... and hit for 79 points of damage!
Gruesome slash opens the war griffin's forehead!
Grey matter spills forth!

You throw a vultite handaxe at a war griffin!
AS: +526 vs DS: +274 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +16 = +300
... and hit for 70 points of damage!
Neck broken.
The war griffin twitches several times before dying.

I just couldn't justify the end rolls of the dagger for OTF hunting.

[JustDan]

The build I'm considering:

130 Armor (min hindrance for elemental spells in hauberk)
101 Shield
202 OHE
202 Hurling
202 CMan
202 Ambush
202 Physical Fitness
303 Dodging
5 MOC
66 Arcane Symbols
24 MIU
30 Harness Power
30 Minor Elemental (430)
50 Climb
50 Swim
303 Disarm
303 Pick
303 Stalk/Hide
303 Perception

I envision using Gib's strategy, hiding and ambushing when there's a shield present, hurling a chrono dagger when there isn't, using 410 and CMans/Feint/Sweep/etc to get things prone when they're being difficult.

Buckwheet's post makes me gulp a little bit, but if the chrono dagger doesn't work for me, I'll look into other options.

[Buckwheet]

The build I'm considering:

130 Armor (min hindrance for elemental spells in hauberk)
101 Shield
202 OHE
202 Hurling
202 CMan
202 Ambush
202 Physical Fitness
303 Dodging
5 MOC
66 Arcane Symbols
24 MIU
30 Harness Power
30 Minor Elemental (430)
50 Climb
50 Swim
303 Disarm
303 Pick
303 Stalk/Hide
303 Perception

I envision using Gib's strategy, hiding and ambushing when there's a shield present, hurling a chrono dagger when there isn't, using 410 and CMans/Feint/Sweep/etc to get things prone when they're being difficult.

Buckwheet's post makes me gulp a little bit, but if the chrono dagger doesn't work for me, I'll look into other options.

It is a strong build for sure. I personally just don't like the "setup" stuff. I guess I play my rogue more like a warrior because I just hurl from the open and kill shit.

I like the spells and lock mastery about the rogue. If I had to do it all over again tho?

I would try for a warrior with 3x armor, 3x shield, 3x dodge.

[DaCapn]

If you're going 130 ranks of AU for MnE in hauberk, why not go 140 AU for tier 4 armored evasion as well? You'd have an AP of -9.

[Buckwheet]

If you're going 130 ranks of AU for MnE in hauberk, why not go 140 AU for tier 4 armored evasion as well? You'd have an AP of -9.

My assumption with that is he will be using other armor enhancements that are more useful. I find with the casting rogue using a paladin to reduce the casting hindrance is a better benefit than the decreased AP. With 3x dodge that is.

[Gibreficul]

Once I learned spell 420, I went right into full plate and used alchemy shop bought amulets to imbed 410. It didn't make sense to cast in hauberk with hindrance when the only spell I cared about was 410, and tapping an amulet has 0 chance of failure. All the mana gets front-loaded, meaning during a hunt, all my mana can go to keeping GoS sigils up, and sending to anyone in the group that needs it. The chipped hematite amulets in Illistim are pretty cheap, and hold 2 charges per (to the best of my knowledge.) There's other options, including imbue, but you know this.

Carry on. :club:

[JustDan]

My assumption with that is he will be using other armor enhancements that are more useful. I find with the casting rogue using a paladin to reduce the casting hindrance is a better benefit than the decreased AP. With 3x dodge that is.

:yeahthat:

When I can find an accomodating paladin, that's my definite preference.

[JustDan]

Once I learned spell 420, I went right into full plate and used alchemy shop bought amulets to imbed 410. It didn't make sense to cast in hauberk with hindrance when the only spell I cared about was 410, and tapping an amulet has 0 chance of failure. All the mana gets front-loaded, meaning during a hunt, all my mana can go to keeping GoS sigils up, and sending to anyone in the group that needs it. The chipped hematite amulets in Illistim are pretty cheap, and hold 2 charges per (to the best of my knowledge.) There's other options, including imbue, but you know this.

Carry on. :club:

I wrestled with this, too. I use 117 and 410 pretty regularly on a hunt, but the allure of plate is pretty strong.

[Luftstreitkräfte]

Post some logs for us once your setup is done, if you would.

[JustDan]

Post some logs for us once your setup is done, if you would.

Sure thing. 10 days until Fixskills-ey goodness, then I'll post logs of hunts in OTF, Nelemar, the Scatter, Plane 4, and a grimswarm camp, just for shits and giggles.