When is it too much?

[~Rocktar~]

First, we tax your money when you make it and before you get it home. Then we tax pretty much everything you buy with it, we tax it when you die and pass it on to others and now this.


New Montgomery County Bag Tax Starts Sunday
New Montgomery County Bag Tax Starts Sunday

Updated: Saturday, 31 Dec 2011, 10:29 PM EST
Published : Saturday, 31 Dec 2011, 10:29 PM EST

It won't take long for Montgomery County residents to feel the impact of the new year, because starting January 1st, all retail stores will be required by law to charge five cents for every paper or plastic bag they provide to customers.

Remember that old question, "paper or plastic?" Well, the new question is likely to be, "your bags, or ours?" The wrong answer will cost you a nickel per bag.

Of each five cents collected, Montgomery County will get four cents to use in fighting water pollution. Retailers will keep a penny to cover administrative costs.

(emphasis added)

http://www.myfoxdc.com/dpp/news/local/new-montgomery-county-bag-tax-starts-sunday

So now, you get taxed on the bag to carry what you bought, that was already taxed, home in. This isn't new other than the retailers get to keep a penny for "administration" costs and that there is no turn in plan for a refund. We have taxed containers in many states for years, it's called a bottle deposit and you get it back when you recycle them. This is nothing more than social engineering with the tax code used to cover up a tax increase. I can see the discussions now "hey, we can't increase property taxes a few mills or sales tax, people will have our heads, lets tax bags then we can call it 'ecologically friendly legislation and we get more cash to blow."

I am all for recycling and do it myself, this is just a stealth tax increase.

[Stretch]

~ how horrible ~~~

[Androidpk]

When is it too much? When you cry over 5 cents for a plastic bag.

[Sam]

Spend a few bucks on some canvas bags, guy.

[Kronius]

You live in Maryland, the "Free State" which is probably the furthest from Freedom as you can get. If you can, leave ASAP.

[Tgo01]

I think this should be implemented nation wide, it's actually a good idea.

[zhelas]

Some stores take a few cents off you total when you bring your own bags. I don't have a problem with this tax.

[azim17]

Well off people tend to worry about how to earn more money, rather than petty shit like this.

[~Rocktar~]

Well off people tend to worry about how to earn more money, rather than petty shit like this.

You are an idiot, and no, self made rich people worry about everything. That is how they became rich.

[Drunken Durfin]

I just got back from the grocery store and saw this post so I checked my receipt. They took a nickel off for every bag that I brought in and used.

[Drunken Durfin]

You are an idiot, and no, self made rich people worry about everything. That is how they became rich.

I seriously doubt Oprah, Bill Gates or even Karl Albrecht (grocery store mogul) worry at all about a nickel for a grocery bag.

[Kronius]

I seriously doubt Oprah, Bill Gates or even Karl Albrecht (grocery store mogul) worry at all about a nickel for a grocery bag.

Right, they pay people to worry about that shit for them

[Parkbandit]

Right, they pay people to worry about that shit for them

And have an entire staff of accountants, lawyers and other financial experts to ensure they pay the least amount of taxes allowable by law.

[Tsa`ah]

You are an idiot, and no, self made rich people worry about everything. That is how they became rich.

Thanks for the laugh.

[Androidpk]

I seriously doubt Oprah, Bill Gates or even Karl Albrecht (grocery store mogul) worry at all about a nickel for a grocery bag.

That's because the elite rich are lizards in disguise.

[Tgo01]

I think my friend had the perfect solution/response to this 10 cent bag fee. She was unaware of the fee so when the cashier told her they would charge her 10 cents per bag used she told them "Then put everything in the cart."

[Sam]

That sounds like a pain in the ass solution.

[Tgo01]

Guess it depends on how much you buy. Sam's Club never uses bags anyways and I do a lot of shopping there.

Mainly I was just pointing out how silly it is for people to get upset over being 'forced' to spend 5 or 10 cents per bag when you don't have to use bags at all.

[Tsa`ah]

If you do any shopping at discount stores you either pay for the bags, bring your own, or find empty boxes.

Very few people are going to care enough to bitch about it. They'll bring their own (which the tax tends push people toward) or they'll pay the tax and watch how their groceries are bagged more closely.

People that become rich on their own didn't get rich pinching pennies and micromanaging, to the cent, everything going in and out of their pocket. They got rich via risk, minding the DOLLARS, and not playing loose with their budget.

Being thrifty is not being miserly.

[~Rocktar~]

Guess it depends on how much you buy. Sam's Club never uses bags anyways and I do a lot of shopping there.

Mainly I was just pointing out how silly it is for people to get upset over being 'forced' to spend 5 or 10 cents per bag when you don't have to use bags at all.

I never said I was forced, you and others took that assumption and ran with it. I said it was a stupid tax trying to legislate behavior and simply one more way to take money from those that earn it.



People that become rich on their own didn't get rich pinching pennies and micromanaging, to the cent, everything going in and out of their pocket. They got rich via risk, minding the DOLLARS, and not playing loose with their budget.

Being thrifty is not being miserly.

There are a plethora of books out there that would suggest otherwise. I would recommend you start with "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley and Danko.

There is also the proverb of 'Mind your pennies and the dollars take care of themselves.' Stop being a dumbass.

[Delias]

I will give you ten dollars to buy yourself ten re-useable bags, Rocktar. Do I make the check out to "Squiggles" or "crybaby douchebag"?

[Tsa`ah]

There are a plethora of books out there that would suggest otherwise. I would recommend you start with "The Millionaire Next Door" by Stanley and Danko.

There is also the proverb of 'Mind your pennies and the dollars take care of themselves.' Stop being a dumbass.

There is not a single book out there that can outline your path to becoming a millionaire.

Whether you choose to believe so or not, my net worth is 10 figures (well collectively between my wife and I). I was not born into wealth or even upper or middle middle class.

We did not get to where we are by worrying about all the pennies we were losing. We did not get here by clipping coupons. We got here by living below our means for many years. Not buying new cars, wasting as little of our money as possible and then taking a massive risk with what we had saved.

Our collective income before we took the big plunge was six figures. Even if our risking everything we had took a face plant ... we still would earn, as a household, six figures. So while risk is the biggest factor, mitigating that risk is just as important.

You can waste your money on all the books you want ... you're only putting money into the pockets of those people that have suckered you into believing you can get wealthy through reading their garbage.

[Tgo01]

There is not a single book out there that can outline your path to becoming a millionaire.

Whether you choose to believe so or not, my net worth is 10 figures (well collectively between my wife and I). I was not born into wealth or even upper or middle middle class.

We did not get to where we are by worrying about all the pennies we were losing. We did not get here by clipping coupons. We got here by living below our means for many years. Not buying new cars, wasting as little of our money as possible and then taking a massive risk with what we had saved.

Our collective income before we took the big plunge was six figures. Even if our risking everything we had took a face plant ... we still would earn, as a household, six figures. So while risk is the biggest factor, mitigating that risk is just as important.

You can waste your money on all the books you want ... you're only putting money into the pockets of those people that have suckered you into believing you can get wealthy through reading their garbage.

Your collective income is 6 figures yet your net worth is 10 figures? You do know 10 figures is at least 1 billion dollars right? So even if you earned 999,999 dollars that would take you about 1,000 years to accumulate 1 billion dollars.

Wait, I just realized you said YOU were not born into wealth, was your wife then? Did she enter the relationship with 900 million dollars?

[Tsa`ah]

Sorry ... this is why I pay an accountant. 8 figures. As of 2 days ago 27m.

Our net worth is not based upon our income prior or post investment.

[~Rocktar~]

I will give you ten dollars to buy yourself ten re-useable bags, Rocktar. Do I make the check out to "Squiggles" or "crybaby douchebag"?

How about you keep the cash and use it as a payment on your clue?

[~Rocktar~]

There is not a single book out there that can outline your path to becoming a millionaire.

Whether you choose to believe so or not, my net worth is 10 figures (well collectively between my wife and I). I was not born into wealth or even upper or middle middle class.

We did not get to where we are by worrying about all the pennies we were losing. We did not get here by clipping coupons. We got here by living below our means for many years. Not buying new cars, wasting as little of our money as possible and then taking a massive risk with what we had saved.

Our collective income before we took the big plunge was six figures. Even if our risking everything we had took a face plant ... we still would earn, as a household, six figures. So while risk is the biggest factor, mitigating that risk is just as important.

You can waste your money on all the books you want ... you're only putting money into the pockets of those people that have suckered you into believing you can get wealthy through reading their garbage.

HUmmm, since you say you used the exact plan they lay out in the book, and I part of that plan is to minimize tax burden (which is my position and reason for the commentary), then maybe you should actually know something about the book you are trashing before you shove your head even further up your ass. It's all garbage huh?

Please grow the fuck up and stop being a dumb fuck.

[Parkbandit]

There is not a single book out there that can outline your path to becoming a millionaire.

Whether you choose to believe so or not, my net worth is 10 figures (well collectively between my wife and I). I was not born into wealth or even upper or middle middle class.

We did not get to where we are by worrying about all the pennies we were losing. We did not get here by clipping coupons. We got here by living below our means for many years. Not buying new cars, wasting as little of our money as possible and then taking a massive risk with what we had saved.

Our collective income before we took the big plunge was six figures. Even if our risking everything we had took a face plant ... we still would earn, as a household, six figures. So while risk is the biggest factor, mitigating that risk is just as important.

You can waste your money on all the books you want ... you're only putting money into the pockets of those people that have suckered you into believing you can get wealthy through reading their garbage.

I quoted this.. to go with the Fort Camp Lejeune story.

[Tsa`ah]

HUmmm, since you say you used the exact plan they lay out in the book, and I part of that plan is to minimize tax burden (which is my position and reason for the commentary), then maybe you should actually know something about the book you are trashing before you shove your head even further up your ass. It's all garbage huh?

Please grow the fuck up and stop being a dumb fuck.

I never made any commentary on taxes or tax burden. The tax code doesn't make or break people outside of the middle middle class and lower. Though the tax code on that section of the population can certainly make or break anyone taking a risk on business. The tax code made very little difference to me and my wife.

This bag tax isn't going to make or break anyone ... it isn't going to hinder any business and your bringing it up, griping about pennies and the wealthy only demonstrates how poorly you understand things.


I quoted this.. to go with the Fort Camp Lejeune story.


Whether you choose to believe so or not.

Quote all you want, doesn't make you any less of a douche bag idiot.

[Parkbandit]

Quote all you want, doesn't make you any less of a douche bag idiot.

Given your history of making shit up on this forum, let's just say I doubt everything you post.. let alone that you are a billionaire.. oh wait, a millionaire.

Rule #1.. millionaires wouldn't make the mistake of saying their net worth is 10 figures... they know exactly how many figures their net worth is.

[Delias]

How about you keep the cash and use it as a payment on your clue?

That one actually made me laugh. Thanks, though. My clue payments are fucking outrageous. I am thinking of switching providers.

[kookiegod]

Hmmm....

Ok, in fair disclosure, I have a mid-high 7 figure net worth. I pulled out a six figure sum from the bank the other day to jump on a tax free muni paying 5.5.

But...

I pinch pennies.

I cut coupons.

I use free services whenever I can, take advantage of freecycle, sales, costco, dollar stores, depending what I need. Dollar stores are amazing for soap, dish soap, and silly stuff we all need and its like 3-4-5 bucks at the grocery. Heck, you could eat off a dollar store if you needed too if you planned well.

I also didn't think twice of getting a limo for my 25th high school reunion a few weeks ago.

I cut costs where I can, to the bone somedays. But I don't feel bad when I go do something nuts like a trip to Vegas in a few weeks, or a cruise like I did.

Save when you can, take advantage of every sale , everywhere, it's free money.

[Tgo01]

Hmmm....

Ok, in fair disclosure, I have a mid-high 7 figure net worth. I pulled out a six figure sum from the bank the other day to jump on a tax free muni paying 5.5.

But...

I pinch pennies.

I cut coupons.

I use free services whenever I can, take advantage of freecycle, sales, costco, dollar stores, depending what I need. Dollar stores are amazing for soap, dish soap, and silly stuff we all need and its like 3-4-5 bucks at the grocery. Heck, you could eat off a dollar store if you needed too if you planned well.

I also didn't think twice of getting a limo for my 25th high school reunion a few weeks ago.

I cut costs where I can, to the bone somedays. But I don't feel bad when I go do something nuts like a trip to Vegas in a few weeks, or a cruise like I did.

Save when you can, take advantage of every sale , everywhere, it's free money.

7 figures? Sorry this thread is now for people worth 10 figures or more.

[Delias]

I don't want to brag, but my net worth is well into the hundreds, perhaps even into the thousands dollars.

[Warriorbird]

There is also the proverb of 'Mind your pennies and the dollars take care of themselves.'

I always took this sort of thing as suggesting that you take advantage of what you can. I bet I'd go reusable more if I saved more money while doing it (I only use them for the Farmer's Market.)

[Drunken Durfin]

Rule #1.. millionaires ... know exactly how many figures their net worth is.

“If you know how much money you have, then you are not really rich.” - J. Paul Getty

"If you know how much money you have, you don't got enough." - Don King

"If you know how much money you have your are NOT rich." - Yahoo Answers (best source)

[crb]

There is not a single book out there that can outline your path to becoming a millionaire.

Whether you choose to believe so or not, my net worth is 10 figures (well collectively between my wife and I). I was not born into wealth or even upper or middle middle class.

We did not get to where we are by worrying about all the pennies we were losing. We did not get here by clipping coupons. We got here by living below our means for many years. Not buying new cars, wasting as little of our money as possible and then taking a massive risk with what we had saved.

Our collective income before we took the big plunge was six figures. Even if our risking everything we had took a face plant ... we still would earn, as a household, six figures. So while risk is the biggest factor, mitigating that risk is just as important.

You can waste your money on all the books you want ... you're only putting money into the pockets of those people that have suckered you into believing you can get wealthy through reading their garbage.
Thanks, I needed this. rofl

[crb]

Guess it depends on how much you buy. Sam's Club never uses bags anyways and I do a lot of shopping there.

Mainly I was just pointing out how silly it is for people to get upset over being 'forced' to spend 5 or 10 cents per bag when you don't have to use bags at all.
If a store voluntarily wants to charge a fee for bags, or give a discount for annoying canvas ones, fine.

Why does the government need to get involved?

Plastic can be recycled anyways. I don't use these stupid canvas bags. I have to remember to take them with me, and how many I would need, so like I need a stash of them in each car, on the floor I guess, which is dirty, so I have to keep my car pristine just so I can have clean groceries when I get home? I'm not some pussy in a prius, I garden, so I buy bags of mulch and compost and everything else. I need all the room in my SUV. Not to mention home improvement stuff.

OR... I can use plastic bags, and bring them back to the store and toss them in the recycle bin. Easy, simple. Whatever.

I recycle hundreds of pounds of junk a month, I have three composters in my yard. I also grow some of my own food, which is from my yard so it has a tiny carbon footprint.

But that doesn't change the fact that micromanaging your grocery bagging decisions is NOT a legitimate function of government. Nevermind that every regulation has a compliance cost that reduces overall economic productivity.

[AnticorRifling]

“If you know how much money you have, then you are not really rich.” - J. Paul Getty

"If you know how much money you have, you don't got enough." - Don King

"If you know how much money you have your are NOT rich." - Yahoo Answers (best source)

Don King and Yahoo Answers...not two sources I'd have in my corner :)

Getty might have known a thing or three though.

[Tgo01]

If a store voluntarily wants to charge a fee for bags, or give a discount for annoying canvas ones, fine.

Why does the government need to get involved?

How many stores are going to 'voluntarily' charge someone for bags if their competitors are not going to be forced to? Therefore everyone needs to be put on equal footing.


OR... I can use plastic bags, and bring them back to the store and toss them in the recycle bin. Easy, simple. Whatever.

Very few people actually bring their bags back to be recycled. Estimates put the figure at 500 billion plastic bags are used in the world each year, that's a whole lot of bags that serve very little purpose.


But that doesn't change the fact that micromanaging your grocery bagging decisions is NOT a legitimate function of government.

Is that why the government is doing this? To micromanage our bagging decisions? The government wants to take away my God given right to choose paper or plastic!

[crb]

How many stores are going to 'voluntarily' charge someone for bags if their competitors are not going to be forced to? Therefore everyone needs to be put on equal footing.



Very few people actually bring their bags back to be recycled. Estimates put the figure at 500 billion plastic bags are used in the world each year, that's a whole lot of bags that serve very little purpose.



Is that why the government is doing this? To micromanage our bagging decisions? The government wants to take away my God given right to choose paper or plastic!
I find your attitude scary. You're like a villain out of an Ayn Rand novel, and people say her characters are caricatures that can't really exist.


Dear Mr. Rearden, it is unfair that you should have an advantage, everyone should be on equal footing.

Frightening. Truly frightening.

So what you're saying that a private business cannot be trusted to make the right decision and that consumers (the people) cannot be trusted to make the right decision so if a private business made the "right" decision to charge for plastic bags or provide a discount for canvas ones (costing them money and forcing them to raise prices elsewhere to compensate). This would put them at a competitive disadvantage (unfair) in your book to the other stores, which would then steal consumers (the people) who act in their own self interest by shopping only at whichever store has the best value.

Your solution is to have a democratic government (a government of, by, and for the people) impose a regulation on all businesses to adopt a pricing scheme on plastic bags that removes or influences the choice of the consumer (the people).

If you are really worried that people would abandon a store that charged for plastic bags if they had the option to go elsewhere. Why then would you posit that a government elected by and accountable to these same people would have as a legitimate function the ability to go against the will of said people in taking the choice away?



Let me answer the question for you. In your view a minority of government elites "knows better" than the will of the public and they would be making this change "for their own good" to save the public from the risk of their own "bad" choices?

Frightening.

[Tgo01]

So what you're saying that a private business cannot be trusted to make the right decision and that consumers (the people) cannot be trusted to make the right decision so if a private business made the "right" decision to charge for plastic bags or provide a discount for canvas ones (costing them money and forcing them to raise prices elsewhere to compensate).

First of all I'd like to address your 'discount for canvas' bags which costs them money, no where did I say stores should offer a discount for using canvas bags. Charge for plastic bags or no charge for using bags the consumer brought in. Second since you brought up 'costing the stores money' by giving a discount to canvas bags wouldn't it be a lot cheaper for stores if everyone brought in their own bags and the store didn't offer a discount for bags? Thirdly apparently businesses can't be trusted to make the right decision because how many stores are you aware of that charge customers for plastic bags they use?


This would put them at a competitive disadvantage (unfair) in your book to the other stores, which would then steal consumers (the people) who act in their own self interest by shopping only at whichever store has the best value.

Are you disagreeing with me or just repeating what I said?


Let me answer the question for you. In your view a minority of government elites "knows better" than the will of the public and they would be making this change "for their own good" to save the public from the risk of their own "bad" choices?

You keep talking about the 'will of the people' as if you know the vast majority of people are educated on this subject and know what's best. I bet if you sat down every single person in America and told them about how much oil we waste making these plastic bags, the damage these plastic bags do to wildlife and how much of these bags end up in land fills and how plastic bags figure into a stores overhead which gets passed on to the consumer most people would be bringing in their own bags even without this law.

So yes, the 'minority' politicians who have studied up on this subject 'knows better' than a bunch of uneducated (on the subject before you go getting all angry) people and the politicians are 'savings' them from their own 'bad' choices. My goodness, that type of reasoning is like arguing with your doctor who was silly enough to go through med school for all of those years because we patients know what's best for us after all.


Frightening.

Yeah I am pretty frightened by your logic. Let me guess you're also against more fuel efficient vehicles and banning incandescent bulbs right?

[AnticorRifling]

Bitch he home gardens he needs his full size SUV!

[Deathravin]

To the OP - didn't read the comments, so I'm unsure what off-topic thing you're currently discussing.

Why do we need taxes in the first place? Our problem is our monetary system itself. A system that's dependent on exponential growth will never be stable and will always have a certain (quite high) percentage of failure built in (because the banks create only the principle, and not the interest. The interest must come from other debt money's principle, so there will always be failure based on the past rate of inflation). And that failure always comes in fits & starts (bubbles) which cause recessions and mass unemployment (sort of puts the bankruptcy laws in a different light, doesn't it).

Why not a monetary system where loans from banks are abolished and the government gives the loans at low or no interest, and can monitor the flow and amount of money and adjust the total money supply accordingly? They can levy taxes (and destroy it) to take money out of existence to combat inflation, and spend money on civil projects to combat deflation. These two tools can keep the monetary system stable.

If you still require failure, low-inflation lending will allow for a decent percentage of failure so bad ideas still die and people bad with money (either deliberately or not) are still punished.

Of course this would require a digital money system so they can know where the money is, what it's being spent on, and where the stagnations are.

The last part (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3qicabStQkc&list=PLC2214B0D713196C7&index=4&feature=plpp_video&t=3m40s) of the money as debt videos gives some options. (full video series found here (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8&feature=BFa&list=PLC2214B0D713196C7&lf=plpp_video))

[crb]

You keep talking about the 'will of the people' as if you know the vast majority of people are educated on this subject and know what's best. I bet if you sat down every single person in America and told them about how much oil we waste making these plastic bags, the damage these plastic bags do to wildlife and how much of these bags end up in land fills and how plastic bags figure into a stores overhead which gets passed on to the consumer most people would be bringing in their own bags even without this law.

So yes, the 'minority' politicians who have studied up on this subject 'knows better' than a bunch of uneducated (on the subject before you go getting all angry) people and the politicians are 'savings' them from their own 'bad' choices. My goodness, that type of reasoning is like arguing with your doctor who was silly enough to go through med school for all of those years because we patients know what's best for us after all.

Uh, ya. Pretty much this:

http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152367/a-whole-lot-worse

(PS: A doctor cannot force you to do anything, the freedom to ignore his advice, to walk out of the hospital untreated, to get a second opinion or whatever, is a freedom you still possess as a mentally sound human being.)

If you really need a governmental nanny, move to Denmark. Please, don't ruin this country.

[Tgo01]

(PS: A doctor cannot force you to do anything, the freedom to ignore his advice, to walk out of the hospital untreated, to get a second opinion or whatever, is a freedom you still possess as a mentally sound human being.)

If you really need a governmental nanny, move to Denmark. Please, don't ruin this country.

Whoa now, where did I ever say a doctor can force you to do anything? Where did I say I needed or wanted a 'governmental nanny'? Didn't take you long to set up a straw man.

[Drunken Durfin]

I bet if you sat down every single person in America and told them about how much oil we waste making these plastic bags, the damage these plastic bags do to wildlife and how much of these bags end up in land fills and how plastic bags figure into a stores overhead which gets passed on to the consumer most people would be bringing in their own bags even without this law.

I'll take that bet.

The majority of Americans won't do a damn thing that would inconvenience them and are willing to pay an extra few cents to feed their laziness.

[Tgo01]

I'll take that bet.

The majority of Americans won't do a damn thing that would inconvenience them and are willing to pay an extra few cents to feed their laziness.

You're probably right, all the more reason some laws such as this need to be shoved down people's throats.

[TheEschaton]

Why the fuck is there an almost 50 post thread on some fucking local ordinance in BFE, nowhere?

More importantly, why are Rocktar and crb treating it like the big bad federal government is imposing some horrible regulation, when it's a local government, something they're presumably for?

My guess is because the whole "we want the decisions in the hands of the states" is a strawman. They don't want the state governments telling them what to do, they don't even want Montgomery County telling them what to do. If this was a town ordinance, I'm pretty sure they wouldn't want their town telling them what to do. In other words, this is petulence and childish "I don't wannas!" every time a government of any sort makes an informed decision which might negatively impact them and the unpristineness of their SUV.

And no, the average consumer cannot be trusted to do what's best for anyone but themselves, and that's often detrimental to society and other people. CRB basically stated he wouldn't a few posts after mocking someone else for not trusting the consumer. Why? Because he doesn't want to keep his car clean. Cause it's inconvenient to him. Private companies even less so.

[~Rocktar~]

More importantly, why are Rocktar and crb treating it like the big bad federal government is imposing some horrible regulation, when it's a local government, something they're presumably for?

My guess is because the whole "we want the decisions in the hands of the states" is a strawman.

Since you apparently can't read I will say it again.

I thought it was a dumbass tax trying to regulate behavior and simply another excuse for a tax increase.

[TheEschaton]

What's a sin tax then? Is it wrong to tax cigarettes higher than other goods?

Isn't the very function of government to enforce a communal agreement of how we treat each other? I seem to remember that from Locke.

Or are you just a retard?

[~Rocktar~]

What's a sin tax then? Is it wrong to tax cigarettes higher than other goods?

Because using an item provided by the store as a convenience to take home your purchased goods is just like lighting up, right?


Isn't the very function of government to enforce a communal agreement of how we treat each other? I seem to remember that from Locke.

Do you think that the tax will reduce bag on human violence? Maybe they are just misunderstood and need to talk it out more?


Or are you just a retard?

Lame, you can do better. Oh, wait a minute maybe you can't I'm sorry.