Stealth's post concerning armor

[theotherjohn]

<<Knock down 10 ranks from each, and you are correct.>>

Incorrect. This is the point where you have no added RT. Your maneuver penalties are still (substantially) higher until you reach full training. Or 20 bonus per second of RT. Which I believe for full plate is now 240 skill/140 ranks. Sooo. Train to the full skill not -10 is my advice.

Stealth


<<Stealth mentioned at the Simucon warrior forum this year that overtraining yields no benefit any longer. Perhaps he will post about it himself. MaVa is no longer applicable.>>

Correct, being overtrained is no longer helpful other than as an alternate redux skill. If it were me I would put the points into something else useful.

GM Stealth

[Zanagodly]

i thought 130 ranks was all you needed for full plate now?

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Zanagodly
i thought 130 ranks was all you needed for full plate now?

so did a lot of people.

RT adder is 12

12 x 20 = 240 skill


I think 138 ranks is 240 skill.

After I migrate down I will tell you the game answer and not the spreadsheet answer

[Bobmuhthol]

Wow. Plz be good at mechanics.

Beginning at 40 ranks, the bonus is rank + 100. 140 ranks is 240 skill. You need 240 skill to be trained in full plate, BUT your roundtime penalty does get rounded at 130 ranks. That doesn't mean you're fully trained for the armor, though.

[TheEschaton]

I thought the necessary skill formula was (RT adder x 20) - 10. Or is that magical hindrance?


-TheE-

[Bobmuhthol]

There's no -10. You guys suck at GemStone. Magical hinderance is base % * 20 - 10.

[CrystalTears]

All off-topic posts have been moved to a separate link in the social form called "Bob's Love Link". Please leave this thread for warrior/armor discussions. Thank you.

Training to *exact* full armor potential (for RT hindrance purposes) is really not that worthwhile when you can bypass several ranks with the strength spell alone.

At 140, you could knock off a few ranks, single/double/triple them in PT (same cost) which will yield much more significant benefits.

[Bobmuhthol]

Congratz2u.

Anybody that listens to you is stupid.

And anyone who uses the exact same amount of TPs for a secondary redux when it costs the same for a primary is stupid too.

[Bobmuhthol]

Anyone who thinks whoever has the most redux wins the game is also stupid.

Agreed.

[Straight-up]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Training to *exact* full armor potential (for RT hindrance purposes) is really not that worthwhile when you can bypass several ranks with the strength spell alone.

At 140, you could knock off a few ranks, single/double/triple them in PT (same cost) which will yield much more significant benefits.


This would be true if strength affected the RT caused by armor...but it doesn't so I gotta say you are wrong.



Straight

Heh. I'm talking about getting rid of armor encumberance by having insufficient ranks adding to RT.

For example, I will swing a morning star with a full inventory and less than sufficient armor ranks to wear haub with 6 seconds of round time. I can then have a wizard cast strength on me, use generic ATTACK, and swing at 5 seconds.

I can be naked with the exception of having a morning star in my hand, and without strength, will still swing at 6 seconds w/o wizard strength.

I have tested this several times before on another character, but the next time I get arrested without spells I'll do a log to show it as fact.

[Edited on 6-14-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Training to *exact* full armor potential (for RT hindrance purposes) is really not that worthwhile when you can bypass several ranks with the strength spell alone.

At 140, you could knock off a few ranks, single/double/triple them in PT (same cost) which will yield much more significant benefits.

If you want to be a warrior that relies on spells he can't cast go ahead. I'd prefer to be fully trained and never wear a spell but hey we all can't be real warriors.

You sound like you're from the Warclaidhm school of warriors: Give me spells plz 4 I R a weak ass.

It's not a matter of being weak.

+15 AS is nice regardless to whether you have maxed Armor Use as so not to suffer RT hindrance.

I think that it is an advantage to cut corners by chopping off a few armor ranks and still be able to swing unencumbered with the help of wizard strength. Being a decently trained warrior, the TP recovery is very substantial and it lets me balance out the other skills.

[Straight-up]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell

I think that it is an advantage to cut corners by chopping off a few armor ranks and still be able to swing unencumbered with the help of wizard strength. Being a decently trained warrior, the TP recovery is very substantial and it lets me balance out the other skills.

As I said before. This is not the way it works, you are simply incorrect. Strength can NEVER train off missing armor ranks. All it will do is speed up your swing if you are encumbered. It won't affect your RT at all if you are unencumbered AND not fully trained for the RT from your armor.


Straight

:forehead:

Dude, you are so fucking wrong.

That is all I will say.

But, you're wrong.

Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong, Wrong.

[Straight-up]

Simple matter...prove that you are correct. I say you cannot do what you claim while unencumbered. My contention is that the strength spell (or phoens) will not affect your RT in any way UNLESS you are encumbered. Hence your theory that it will help you if you are undertrained for your armor is a load of crap. If you think you are right...feel free to step up and post your evidence.


Straight

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Hence your theory that it will help you if you are undertrained for your armor is a load of crap.>>

Uhh......


Being undertrained adds roundtime. Strength takes it away.

There's your proof, now QYB.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
It's not a matter of being weak.

+15 AS is nice regardless to whether you have maxed Armor Use as so not to suffer RT hindrance.

I think that it is an advantage to cut corners by chopping off a few armor ranks and still be able to swing unencumbered with the help of wizard strength. Being a decently trained warrior, the TP recovery is very substantial and it lets me balance out the other skills.

Its would be an advantage to have every spell possible cast upon you for the longest durations possible every time you step foot in the lands, but it still means you are relying on the skills of others to do your hunting. As a warrior you have plenty of ways to effectively hunt without needing such yet you will hamstring yourself in such a manner on purpose and lose your independence....

Ergo, you are weak.

Anticor wins.

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Hence your theory that it will help you if you are undertrained for your armor is a load of crap.>>

Uhh......


Being undertrained adds roundtime. Strength takes it away.

There's your proof, now QYB.

No, Striaght-up is correct. The strength spell does absolutely nothing for the added RT from being undertrained for your armor.

Here's my proof using a friend's characters to test it out.


enc
You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.
inspect leat
You carefully inspect your blue leather.

Your careful inspection of some opalescent blue leather allows you to conclude that it is soft leather armor that covers the torso, arms, legs, neck, and head.

You determine that you could wear the leather around your chest.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
sk
YoungWizard (at level 15), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Shield Use.........................| 74 16
Edged Weapons......................| 74 16
Physical Fitness...................| 74 16
Arcane Symbols.....................| 124 32
Magic Item Use.....................| 124 32
Spell Aiming.......................| 124 32
Harness Power......................| 74 16
Elemental Mana Control.............| 74 16
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 74 16
Perception.........................| 74 16
Climbing...........................| 25 5
Swimming...........................| 25 5

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 2

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 15
Training Points: 24 Phy 0 Mnt (148 Phy converted to Mnt)
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.

take mac
You remove a scorched black rolaren machete from in your velvet sheath.

att Warrior
You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
Warrior evades your attack!
Roundtime: 6 sec.

rem leat
You work your way out of some opalescent blue leather.
enc
Your load is a bit heavy, but you feel confident that the weight is not affecting your actions very much.
swap
You swap a scorched black rolaren machete to your left hand and some opalescent blue leather to your right hand.
give Warrior
You offer your blue leather to Warrior, who has 30 seconds to accept the offer. Type CANCEL to prematurely cancel the offer.

Warrior has accepted your offer and is now holding some opalescent blue leather.
swap
You swap your black rolaren machete from your left to your right hand.
enc

You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.
att Warrior
You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
Warrior evades your attack!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Warrior offers you some opalescent blue leather. Type ACCEPT to accept the offer or DECLINE to decline it. The offer will expire in 30 seconds.
acc
You accept Warrior's offer and are now holding some opalescent blue leather.
wear leat
You work your way into some opalescent blue leather.
Roundtime: 9 sec.

enc

You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.
att Warrior

You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
Warrior evades your attack!
Roundtime: 6 sec.

incant 509
You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Strength...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You feel much stronger.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
stance def
You are now in a defensive stance.
att Warrior
You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
Warrior evades your attack!
Roundtime: 6 sec.

[Bobmuhthol]

Oh well. Maybe I'll start caring again. There's just been a lot of stupidity lately so I'm not trying.

I lose.

do it again Jonty, and this time SPELL ACTIVE right before you receive strength. Not that I don't trust you or anything. :shrug:

plus I know this for a fact, I have tested this by painfully reducing armor ranks until 1 second of RT was added, then had strength cast upon me and it was wiped out. You gotta believe me guys.

[CrystalTears]

Why in the world would you want to rely on someone else for the rest of your training life on a wizard or inbeddible for strength? No offense, but that's the dumbest thing I've ever heard, especially for a warrior who should ultimately not need ANY spells. You're setting yourself up for huge disappointment.

Because I have a wizard who is my very very close friend, he's basically around all the time when I need spell-ups and such.

I'm a very likeable and respected character IG and I have no problem asking other wizards for spells too, on the Rock, they don't even charge you for it.

[CrystalTears]

It's not about asking people, or having someone to do it. I'm sure there is always handy. It's the fact that you're setting yourself to ALWAYS need it. It's ridiculous when you can spend the points to do it naturally and be self-sufficient. A warrior with spells is just pointless.

When I reach level 100, your arguement will bode much more merit.

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
do it again Jonty, and this time SPELL ACTIVE right before you receive strength. Not that I don't trust you or anything. :shrug:

The wizard never has any spells on, besidea mass blur, because it's pretty much only used for spell ups on others. But, I'll do it again in a bit.

[Edited on 6-16-2004 by Jonty]

[CrystalTears]

Alright then. :banghead:

Don't cop-out CT.

If I want to have spells to accomodate me until I can pure them at a maximum level is my own prerogative.

If cutting corners by using the convenience of spell-casters makes me "unwarriorish," then I seriously, undoubtable give a flying rat's ass.

[CrystalTears]

It sure is your prerogative, however it doesn't make a viable warrior in the general sense and makes it impractical. Thus, giving that type of suggestion out to others who may not want to go that route and be dependant on others is unfair and wrong on your part to do.

Do whatever the hell you want with your character, but don't state it as being the best thing to do for training a warrior.

Wow. No offense but what the fuck does having an upper edge vs. a stereotypical hunting agenda have to do with who is right and who isn't?

[Jonty]

Ok, here it is again with conformation of the absence of the strength spell:



You feel your extra strength departing.


[Leaving rest mode.]

spell active


You currently have the following active spells:
Mass Blur

enc

You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.
att Warrior
You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
Warrior evades your attack!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Warrior offers you some opalescent blue leather. Type ACCEPT to accept the offer or DECLINE to decline it. The offer will expire in 30 seconds.
acc

You accept Warrior's offer and are now holding some opalescent blue leather.
wear leat
You work your way into some opalescent blue leather.
Roundtime: 9 sec.

inspect leat

You carefully inspect your blue leather.

Your careful inspection of some opalescent blue leather allows you to conclude that it is soft leather armor that covers the torso, arms, legs, neck, and head.

You determine that you could wear the leather around your chest.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
sk
YoungWizard (at level 15), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Shield Use.........................| 74 16
Edged Weapons......................| 74 16
Physical Fitness...................| 74 16
Arcane Symbols.....................| 124 32
Magic Item Use.....................| 124 32
Spell Aiming.......................| 124 32
Harness Power......................| 74 16
Elemental Mana Control.............| 74 16
Elemental Lore - Fire..............| 74 16
Perception.........................| 74 16
Climbing...........................| 25 5
Swimming...........................| 25 5

Spell Lists
Major Elemental....................| 15

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 2

Spell Lists
Wizard.............................| 15
Training Points: 24 Phy 0 Mnt (148 Phy converted to Mnt)
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.

enc
You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.

att Warrior
You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
AS: +63 vs DS: +239 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +18 = -119
A clean miss.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

incant 509

You recite a series of mystical phrases while raising your hands, invoking Strength...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
You feel much stronger.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)

stance def

You are now in a defensive stance.

att Warrior

You swing a scorched black rolaren machete at Warrior!
Warrior evades your attack!
Roundtime: 6 sec.

[Edited on 6-16-2004 by Jonty]

[CrystalTears]

There is no "upper-edge", malaka. Rely on spells all you want, your armor training is still screwed.

Read Above.

I said nixing a *few* ALREADY EXISTING ranks, and wasn't too general about it.

You have ZERO ranks.

I can have maxed out dexterity and strength and still swing +1 RT with 0 Armor Use.

with 0 armor ranks, just swinging my fist with the strength spell won't reduce my RT if i'm wearing plate, haub, brig, or doubles.

There is no "upper-edge", malaka. Rely on spells all you want, your armor training is still screwed.

Okay. You win. Congrats.

one sec... :compcrash: K

xokaliara pisaglentis!

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Read Above.

I said nixing a *few* ALREADY EXISTING ranks, and wasn't too general about it.

You have ZERO ranks.

I can have maxed out dexterity and strength and still swing +1 RT with 0 Armor Use.

with 0 armor ranks, just swinging my fist with the strength spell won't reduce my RT if i'm wearing plate, haub, brig, or doubles.

Um, that is double leather. So that is "nixing" a few ranks. Also, it doesn't matter, stremgth doesn't help; that is a fact.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Don't cop-out CT.

If I want to have spells to accomodate me until I can pure them at a maximum level is my own prerogative.

If cutting corners by using the convenience of spell-casters makes me "unwarriorish," then I seriously, undoubtable give a flying rat's ass.

Sure....just like you could chose a path without any shield training, no combat manuevers, as low reflexes as possible and always stay in offensive and drag your rifting zombie cleric/path/wizard around to spell you up, knock them down and skin and search for you.

Knock yourself out.

Just dont be surprised if people call you things like weak. :shrug:

Like I said, 0 armor ranks will never get RT reduction from strength because at that point, YES, the spell's only going to affect weight encumbrance. There is no ratio for RT reduction with 0 Armor Use as a denominator.

Skirmy, I don't drag them around on a leash and collar.

Q: "Mind spelling me up, I r teh wealking!"

A: "Yes/No."

-"Cool, I'll meet you in mages."

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
When I reach level 100, your arguement will bode much more merit.

You do realize you won't be using strength in the Rift right? And you'll need magical ranks to be allowed to wear strength in Skull Temple and OTF, due to spell burst. And while the Strength spell may help with being undertrained a few ranks in armor in regards to swinging RT, you will not have trained off all of the maneuver hindrance penalties for your armor.

[CrystalTears]

Thanks for that, Snatch.



How often can you say THAT sentence? :D

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Like I said, 0 armor ranks will never get RT reduction from strength because at that point, YES, the spell's only going to affect weight encumbrance. There is no ratio for RT reduction with 0 Armor Use as a denominator.

You have no idea what your talking about. Stregth does NOT negate the added RT from being undertrained for your armor PERIOD. It doesn't matter if you have 0 ranks or 129 ranks. It's not going to help.

Here's MORE proof. I did the same test with the warrior. The warrior has enough ranks to train off the RT hinderance of an augmented breastplate. The warrior is wearing the equivalent with a metal breastplate and arm bracers, then wearing the equivalent of the next step up in armor, half plate, by attaching leg greaves.

And guess what.... I got the same exact results. It does NOT help. Your theory of zero ranks not counting, or "just nixing a few ranks" is wrong. Not to mention the whole idea of the stregth spell negating the adder RT penalty for being undertained for you armor is false.


spell active

You currently have the following active spells:
No spells found.

inv armor

You are wearing some mithglin bracers and a polished gold-washed breastplate.
enc

You adjust your gear comfortably and feel satisfied that you are not encumbered enough to notice.

A coyote pads in!
inspect brac
You carefully inspect your mithglin bracers.

Your careful inspection of some mithglin bracers allows you to conclude that it is miscellaneous armor that covers the arms.

You determine that you could wear the bracers around your arms.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

You carefully inspect your gold-washed breastplate.

Your careful inspection of a polished gold-washed breastplate allows you to conclude that it is plate armor that covers the torso only.

You determine that you could wear the breastplate around your chest.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
sk
Warrior (at level 46), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 194 94
Combat Maneuvers...................| 194 94
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 194 94
Brawling...........................| 194 94
Ambush.............................| 147 47
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 130 35
Physical Fitness...................| 194 94
Dodging............................| 194 94
Stalking and Hiding................| 20 4
Perception.........................| 147 47
Climbing...........................| 74 16
Swimming...........................| 74 16
First Aid..........................| 147 47
PsiNet has recorded your current skills.
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.

stance def
You are now in a defensive stance.

att coy
You swing a ruby-pommeled invar claidhmore at a coyote!
AS: +154 vs DS: +50 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +25 = +161
... and hit for 59 points of damage!
Wild downward slash severs the coyote's left foot!
Bloody stump, anyone?
The coyote yelps loudly as he collapses to the ground in obvious pain and favors his mangled left hind leg.
The coyote is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

A coyote shakes his head violently while trying to regain his bearings!


take gr from my cloak
You remove some leg greaves from in your veniom-threaded cloak.
wear gre

You attach some leg greaves to your legs.

A coyote shakes his head violently while trying to regain his bearings!

att coy
You swing a ruby-pommeled invar claidhmore at a coyote!
AS: +154 vs DS: -25 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +69 = +280
... and hit for 136 points of damage!
Amazing slash to the coyote's belly!
Nothing quite like that empty feeling inside.
The coyote rolls over and dies.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

Wizard recites a series of mystical phrases while raising her hands...

Wizard gestures at you.
You feel much stronger.
e

[Vornavis, West Road]
The road here was once extremely well maintained, and looks to be more like a city street than a wilderness road. Cobblestones pave the road that runs up to the remains of a broken and ruined tower to the east, and into the distance in the west. You also see a short sword, a short sword, a kobold skin and a large doorway leading into the ruined tower. You also see a mongrel kobold, an urgh, a handaxe, a mangy kobold scalp and an urgh hide.
Obvious paths: west
Wizard followed.

Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.

att ur

You swing a ruby-pommeled invar claidhmore at an urgh!
AS: +162 vs DS: +48 with AvD: +28 + d100 roll: +16 = +158
... and hit for 69 points of damage!
Shield arm removed at the shoulder!
The urgh squeals loudly as she slumps to the ground and cradles her wounded left foreleg.
The urgh lets out a final agonized squeal and dies.
Roundtime: 6 sec.

[Jonty]

Originally posted by SnatchWrangler
And while the Strength spell may help with being undertrained a few ranks in armor in regards to swinging RT

It doesn't. See proof above.

[Artha]

A winner is Jonty.

My conclusion is that your leg greaves added a ridiculous ASG to your armor class. Which obviously is ridiculous, but I still stick firmly to what I initially stated, as I know it is fact.

[SnatchWrangler]

The largest impact of this is in regards to penalty to dodge skill. Action penalty of MPB is -20. The dodge formula is (Action Penalty/2)% is subracted from your DS, or 10%. When discussing my training with a GM friend of mine at Simucon, I mentioned I was 70 ranks in armor and wearing MPB. He said that my action penalty was double because I was undertrained, so I was actually getting -40 action penalty or 20% off my dodge DS.

(Dodge Ranks + (AGiLity bonus) + (INTuition Bonus/4) + Spell Mods) = Base Value

So 162 + 20 + 6 = 188 base value for me.

Base Value * Stance Modifier * Shield Penalty * Armor Hindrance Penalty = DS bonus

188 * 0.75 * 1.0 * 0.80 = 113 DS in offensive stance. If I added 10 more armor ranks, it would change to
188 * 0.75 * 1.0 * 0.90 = 127 DS in offensive stance.

If I were to move up to Full Plate, it would be 117 DS when fully trained, 92 if I was 10 ranks shy.

Just an FYI.

-Porcell


Pulled this off the boards. I figured it was relevant. Another reason to avoid undertraining in your armor.

[AnticorRifling]

I coulda swore armor weight didn't matter when it was worn, only carried or held in the hand...

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I coulda swore armor weight didn't matter when it was worn, only carried or held in the hand...

The easy answer is, it doesn't. What did you see that says otherwise?

[Jorddyn]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I coulda swore armor weight didn't matter when it was worn, only carried or held in the hand...

It only matters if it is above or below the "normal" weight of the class, if I remember correctly. For example, full plate that is 20 pounds less than normal will allow you to carry 20 pounds before it starts adding to your encumbrance.

I'm horrible at explanations, and I could be wrong, but hey, I'm bored.

Jorddyn

[Drew]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I coulda swore armor weight didn't matter when it was worn, only carried or held in the hand...


That's correct, unless the armour weighs more than the "average" weight for the that armour's type, then it can encumber you. If it's lower than the average you actually get a bonus amount of weight you can carry.


Edit: Didn't see the two responses to this question, weren't up when I loaded the page. Jorddyn has it.



[Edited on 6-16-2004 by Drew]

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I coulda swore armor weight didn't matter when it was worn, only carried or held in the hand...

It only matters if it is above or below the "normal" weight of the class, if I remember correctly. For example, full plate that is 20 pounds less than normal will allow you to carry 20 pounds before it starts adding to your encumbrance.

I'm horrible at explanations, and I could be wrong, but hey, I'm bored.

Jorddyn

You're basically right. The only thing you're off on, is that although an armor may be 20 lbs below the base weight, not all races will receive an equal +20lbs of free encumbrance.

I don't have the numbers in front of me, but each race has a weight modifier. A human's is 1, so for an armor that is 12 lbs under the base weight, they could carry an extra 12 lbs. I believe a giant's weight modifier is 1.33, which means they'll actually get to carry an extra 16 lbs with armor that is 12lbs below the base weight. (Although I may have that last part reversed.)

Ex.) Base armor weight is 50, your armor is 40 lbs.

For a giant, it'd be 50 (base armor weight) x 1.33 (race mod) = 66.5

40 (lightened armor) x 1.33 (race mod) = 53.2

So a giant with armor that was lightened 10 lbs, would be able to carry an extra 13.3 lbs when the armor is worn. But like I said, it may be reversed. A giant's weight mod may be .67, which would mean then gain less than 10 lbs. of extra carrying capacity (when they have armor lightened by 10 lbs.)

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
My conclusion is that your leg greaves added a ridiculous ASG to your armor class. Which obviously is ridiculous, but I still stick firmly to what I initially stated, as I know it is fact.

Um, no. If you know anything about armor, which so far you're proving that you don't, you'd know that if you add leg greaves to a metal breast plate, it becomes the equivalent of AsG 19, half plate.

I clearly showed that the warrior I was using had arm bracers and a metal breastplate, which is equivalent to AsG 18, augmented breastplate, and also showed the warrior had enough armor training to train off the RT penalty of that armor type. All the leg greaves did was bump up her armor's AsG to the next armor up, AsG 19, half plate, which she is not trained for, giving her only one second more RT since she's not that far behind being trained for half plate. This is not ridiculous; this is how it works.

Stick with what you stated all you want... It's just false, plain and simple. You've yet to show any proof of your theory(which you can't because it's false). So all you're doing is hindering your character. Not that I care what you do with your character; I just don't want anyone believing this false information you're putting out there.

[OoK]

Originally posted by Jorddyn

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
I coulda swore armor weight didn't matter when it was worn, only carried or held in the hand...

It only matters if it is above or below the "normal" weight of the class, if I remember correctly. For example, full plate that is 20 pounds less than normal will allow you to carry 20 pounds before it starts adding to your encumbrance.

I'm horrible at explanations, and I could be wrong, but hey, I'm bored.

Jorddyn

Porcell has posted several times about armor weights and racial weight modifiers. I'm sure someone has the posts saved somewhere. Actually, I have them somewhere as well, I'll try and find them.

-OoK

I'm going to do a little 360 action here and state that undertraining in armor ranks at the expense of spells to "cut corners," might not have been the greatest piece of advice I have handed out.

With adding just 5 ranks of armor training, I am getting absurdly lower costs of stamina to my hostile CMAN attacks. So in this aspect, may you forgive my insolence, and may I be so wretched as to commence forgiveness upon my cursed being.

[AnticorRifling]

Forgiven. Just understand that I'm never wrong and the best way to get through life is to recite "What Anticor said" anytime you have a question concerning life, the universe, and everything.

[Onex]

Yeah what Antiwhore said. Heh.....beat Ron down not me.:fu:

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Onex
Yeah what Antiwhore said. Heh.....beat Ron down not me.:fu:

Ron's gone. And I just threw that 5x onyx shield down the well for that comment.

[Drew]

Word for word from the official boards:


THUEMEJ The Oracle Of Knowledge

An Armor Weight Post To Save ? on 3/19/2004 6:56:09 PM 170

First armor base weights:

Robes 8 pounds

Light Leather 10 pounds
Full Leather 13 pounds
Reinforced Leather 15 pounds
Double Leather 16 pounds
Leather Breastplate 16 pounds
Cuirbouilli Leather 17 pounds
Studded Leather 20 pounds
Brigandine 25 pounds
Chainmail 25 pounds
Double Chain 25 pounds
Augmented Chain 26 pounds
Chain Hauberk 27 pounds
Metal Breastplate 23 pounds
Augmented Breastplate 25 pounds
Half Plate 50 pounds
Full Plate 75 pounds


Worn item modifiers for the races (damnit, just remembered the new races... oh well, here they are for the old races).

Giantman 1.33
Human 1.00
Half Elf 0.92
Dark Elf 0.84
Sylvankind 0.81
Dwarf 0.80
Elf 0.78
Halfling 0.50


Now, armor that is worn does NOT add to your "carry weight" encumberance when it is worn. Anyone who's worn plate armor knows this, because when they forget to wear their armor before they go hunt they get hit with a huge RT, which is solved by putting the armor back on.

Lets first look at a human, since their worn item weight is a modifier of 1. When a human wears a some normal chain hauberk, the system adds 27 pounds of encumberance to the person (because that's how much that specific armor actually weights), and then subtracts 27 pounds because that's the base weight for that armor type. Now consider some hauberk that weights 17 pounds (Lightened by 10 pounds). That human wears the armor, gets 17 pounds of encumberance added, then gets 27 pounds (because it's still chain hauberk type) subtracted off. This leaves him with a net value of -10 pounds. This means the human can carry 10 more pounds of stuff before seeing the same encumberance as he would in normal armor.

Now look at the other races. A giantman has some 75 pound plate that has been taken down to 45 pounds. It's been lightened 30 pounds. Now if a human wore this plate it would "unweight" him 30 pounds. However, giantmen have a 1.33 modifier to worn items. If the giantman wore the 75 pound plate

For a giant, everything weighs 1.33 times as much. Thus, with the normal full plate you're adding 75 * 1.33 = 100 pounds to your encumbrance, then taking away that same 100 pounds for wearing the full plate. Now if you have plate that weights 45 pounds in your hand, it weights 45 * 1.33 = 60 pounds to your encumbrance when worn. However the system still removes the 100 pounds for being a giant wearing full plate, so your plate that's 30 pounds lighter than normal actually "unweights" 40 pounds for a giantman wearing it.

For a halfling, the modifier is 0.50. So using the plate from above, the 30-pounds light armor acts as only 30*0.50 = 15 pounds of "free" encumberance when a halfling wears it.

There're a number of implications in this. First, lightening is most helpful for a giantman. A pure elf gets 60% of the effect of lightening that a giantman does, and a halfling only 38%. On the flipside though, giantmen should wear as few items as possible, because their weight is inflated (and armor is the only worn item that doesn't count toward encumberance).

Additional credit on this research goes to Seigurd, who helped me out on some of this when we originally did it two years ago. Geraco, Tanager, and Cerridween helped out by lending their bodies for the races Seigurd and I didn't have in our stables.

-Porcell

[Gan]

Great info!

With that said, I've got some twice lightened full plate thats 5x and heavily crit padded for sale!!! So at 40 pounds that would mean it would weigh only 20 pounds for a halfling warrior?

And yes, I'm sorry for hijacking this thread, its all been great reading. Now someone buy this plate! :cool:

[Onex]

Ron's gone. And I just threw that 5x onyx shield down the well for that comment.


Crap when did Ron get out? Damnit, now I don't have anybody to back me up when I pick on you......Oh well I shall have to bear this burden alone but it must be done.

[Xinister]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Great info!

With that said, I've got some twice lightened full plate thats 5x and heavily crit padded for sale!!!

Too bad it's crit padded.

Just wondering how much I can get for my 10x lightened (50 pounds) full plate?

Best set is to have is a 0x max damage padded full plate.