Sorcerer Outreach Program

[GS4Merchant]

Haha hey guys, I'm looking for guidance with a new sorcerer.

I'm used to playing Rogues and Rangers and RPing as an assassin (real typical).

However I'm ready for some real destruction!

I want to make a pretty sick caster and this is what I have so far:
Dark Elf, Sorc
Training Plan:
3x spells 0/48
2x Spell Aiming 9/3
1x PT 8/0
1x MIU 0/2
1x AS 0/2
1x HP 0/4
1x EMC 0/3
1x SMC 0/3
1x Sorc Lore (Demonology)0/6
Total: 17/65

I know it looks TP intensive, but this is just my plan, I always skip my 0 train tp's and roll them into growth. I can make this work (at least I think I can). And have reasonable stats.

So some questions I have here...
- What stats CAN i tank?
- Can I just 1x PT until I have full health? Or does PT help vs. Manuvers?
- Has anyone played around with a DC Sorc? (Specializing in Ele Lores)
- Armor - 8 ranks for Doubles still the norm?
- With no necromancy training, will I ever be able to summon a Demon?
- I've heard a lot about Summoning Lore, is it recommended?
- Are there critters out there meant for Sorcs to hunt? (Kind of like soft bodied critters for ambushers)

What I want:
- Superior CS (I love uphunting as a swinger)
- Cloak of Shadows not to fail.
- Evil Eye (Pretty Awesome)
- Torment to work reliably (Think its a real cool RP spell)

How I intend to get there:
From what I've gathered. I'll go 20 ranks over the Sorc circle for that +15 CS. I've got 33 orbs for special occasions. I also managed to swing +11 Aura Stat Bonus, and +7 Aura Bonus gear.

I think that's about all I got on my mind right now, any feedback would be grateful.

[Fallen]

So some questions I have here...
- What stats CAN i tank? -

Influence. Yes, in 2050 when Major/Minor Mental comes out you may suffer slightly at Mental TD, but until then, tank it. It is possible to get all 100's as a DE at cap with I think 73 influence, though that certainly isn't the way to do it for TP growth. Beyond that, I can't help. I never placed for anything but max stats.



- Can I just 1x PT until I have full health? Or does PT help vs. Manuvers?

Physical Training most definitely helps against maneuvers, but that isn't as important as filling in the gaps with your TP strapped plan pre-cap. It should definitely be your first goal near/post-cap to get to a full 1x PT.


- Has anyone played around with a DC Sorc? (Specializing in Ele Lores)
It has been done and the widely held consensus is it is not worth the points. I believe diminishing returns kick in around 10 ranks per element. Save it for a post-cap goal. More CS = Better DC. Anything beyond maximizing CS for DC is complete overkill. Remember that Mana Controls, both Spiritual and Elemental factor into mana returns from the spell. That would be a better use of points than lores to get the most out of DC.


- Armor - 8 ranks for Doubles still the norm?
I never remember correctly (Brig man, myself) but that sounds correct, yes. Doubles will also allow you to wear a helm, leg/arm greaves, etc that are enhancive without adding to hindrance.


- With no necromancy training, will I ever be able to summon a Demon?
Necromancy training does not play into Minor Summoning. Did you mean with no Demonology training? Yes. You can summon a demon without training, just don't look to pull more than a random demon while in a summoning chamber, but that is perfectly fine for most people.


- I've heard a lot about Summoning Lore, is it recommended?
Until the day Strathspay does a full-on Sorcerer lore review, Summoning lore is by far my favorite of all our options. It affects a great many spells both inside and outside our spell circles in fun and useful ways. I went as far as 90 ranks for various perks and never regretted it. Several sorcerers have gone higher.


- Are there critters out there meant for Sorcs to hunt? (Kind of like soft bodied critters for ambushers)
Yes, any magical creature (one that casts spells) is DC food, meaning you typically kill them in 1 shot regardless of endroll. There are examples of these creatures across all level ranges. If you stick to those alone, and keep your CS high enough near cap to 717 everything else you will be a monster.



What I want:
- Superior CS (I love uphunting as a swinger) - Done with 3x spells, heh.

- Cloak of Shadows not to fail. - You're looking at 50 Demonology ranks for minimizing the chance of backlash to its lowest level. You will likely want to stop at a number a bit above that for Phase/Planar Shift/etc. I ended up getting more and more Demonology heavy at the expense of my Necro ranks due to the better perks for everything but AD duration (lol) and Pain Infliction. For you, though, your CS should be high enough to consistently get the max damage from 711 without a lot of Necro. Going above 1x in sorcerer lores gets VERY expensive, and I wouldn't recommend it without careful consideration of what you would be gaining.

- Evil Eye (Pretty Awesome) With 3x spells (as long as you don't do a 100/100/100 spell rank build), you will be in the best possible position to use this spell. Don't forget about the mass Eye Spy tie-in.

- Torment to work reliably (Think its a real cool RP spell) - Torment actually works reliably at 0 demonology ranks. It is tactics that make Torment work over demonology ranks. Damage increase from Demonology is like Damange increase for DC from E-lores. It is nice, but ultimately irrelevant.

A final tip is that you need both Wisdom AND Aura to max your enhancive sorcerer CS. It is a screw, but what can you do? I would suggest getting Aura first for the boost in Spirit points, then switching to Wisdom as you inch towards +40 to each stat.

Hope this helps.

[Riltus]

Armor Use:

Double leathers has a 2% minimum (sorcerer base) spell hindrance. You'll be fully trained with 8 armor use ranks but you'll need to decide if you can live with the hindrance.

With full leathers there is no spell hindrance, but you will need 4 ranks for the maneuver penalty.

Spell Research Cost:

The 3x spell per level training cost is 0/56 (8 + 16 + 32) not 0/48, which will really cramp your available TPs especially coupled with 2x spell aiming. You may have to reconsider fully 3x'ing early on.

Mark

[GS4Merchant]

@Fallen - I meant to ask if I'd ever be able to animate anything if I didn't train in Necro lores.

Additionally, I don't see myself being able to tank influence (it being a MNT stat), what PHY strat is tankable?

@Riltus - Thanks for pointing out my math error. 0/48 would be 2.5x spells

[Eoghain]

You can get 100 in all other stats with a INF of 79. Other than that, everything Evarin and Riltus said holds true.

[Eoghain]

You can animate characters with either 0 or 1 necro rank, but anything above that requires an investment. i think once you hit like 80 ranks you can animate like-level critters. I forget the formula, but you can find it places. Do a search here on the PC. It starts somewhere at you being able to raise -10 levels below you and then with roughly every 8 ranks that climbs by 1. But don't quote me.

[zhelas]

It has been a while but you used to be able to find some animation crystals in th player stores. These crystals were usually made by sorcerers with 150 plus ranks in necro. Twilight hall use to buy them when we had the animation battles. Sorcerers like sereg who had zero ranks in necromancy could animate creatures close to his train.

And it is around 70 ranks of necro to animate creatures at your level with your homemade crystals

[GS4Merchant]

It has been a while but you used to be able to find some animation crystals in th player stores. These crystals were usually made by sorcerers with 150 plus ranks in necro. Twilight hall use to buy them when we had the animation battles. Sorcerers like sereg who had zero ranks in necromancy could animate creatures close to his train.

And it is around 70 ranks of necro to animate creatures at your level with your homemade crystals


Animation Battles! WE COULD START A LEAGUE!

[zhelas]

Allereli and I tested many animates for those battles. The creatures had to be very close in level otherwise it would be severly lopsided. Some of the older animates would cast an aoe thus hurting spectators. The final battle we 5 sorcerers each controlled a minotaur warrior. The way we knew who had which warrior was the color of the battleaxes we supplied.

[zhelas]

Armor Use:

Double leathers has a 2% minimum (sorcerer base) spell hindrance. You'll be fully trained with 8 armor use ranks but you'll need to decide if you can live with the hindrance.

With full leathers there is no spell hindrance, but you will need 4 ranks for the maneuver penalty

The numbers fallen and Riltus supplied are right. Desorceri used to were robes. He said wearing robes served him well. To each there own. If you have a decent set of armor and would like to use it then train for it. Remember we are pures. Getting hit regardless of the armor it is a bad thing. Unless you cloak of shadows is able to save you.

[Murkshev]

If you are going for the power build, then of course join CoL. If you want to make sure your overhunting doesn't run out of mana you will want to train in harness power more, like 2x for your first 40 levels or 50 and then back off on it. And I would adjust spell aiming to 1.4x to 1.8x so that you can afford the training points. I know "if I don't have 2x in spell aiming, go home' arguement. I worked with the lower bolting and lower aimed CS for limb disruption for a while and now I am getting my aiming up to 2x.

There are so many critters that are just awesome to DC. Like Illoke shaman, forest ogres(wizard ones), minoutar magus' and many others on that list. I have 5 ranks of each elemental lore and I do notice a good amount of difference how hard the spell hits and crits.

The animate battles are awesome. I have always had fun participating in them. One of my goals post-cap is to get my necro lore up over 100 ranks to make crystals for these kinds of events.

Good to see someone else who wants to play with the power of sorcery, hope to see you around in game sometime.

[GS4Merchant]

Anyone know where the raven feathered rattle is? Can't recall the Cleric that used to own it, but I remember back in the day trying to start mini invasions with them. Haha.

We COULD be a corrupt group of Warlocks that spell up our own invasion critters. Keep spirit striking them, etc... Yeah sorry, I'm an evil guy.

[Asha]

Anyone know where the raven feathered rattle is? Can't recall the Cleric that used to own it, but I remember back in the day trying to start mini invasions with them. Haha.

We COULD be a corrupt group of Warlocks that spell up our own invasion critters. Keep spirit striking them, etc... Yeah sorry, I'm an evil guy.

The 1000 billion silver one?

[GS4Merchant]

The 1000 billion silver one?

That's the one! :P

[crb]

Don't neglect spell aiming, you'll be able to use fire spirit (111) on ice critters and have some of the easiest hunting in game. Though, not as easy as wizards have it on the same beasts.

[Chaotic Tempo]

As someone who recently made a young sorcerer I can make just a few quick suggestions:

Don't even bother with spell aim or lores early on. In your first 30 days just overtrain sorcerer CS as much as possible. Aside from the bonus to limb disruption targeting SA's uses are limited to fire spirit, balefire, and focused implosion - none of which you will be using to hunt with for a long, long time. The DS bonuses via runestaff are also minimal when compared to where those extra TPs could be invested.

I had my best luck blasting unarmored targets with 702. Mountain Ogres/Large Ogres were my friends. Incredibly low TD with ZERO armor. They have high HP, but with a good channel you can usually pop their spines in a cast or two.

705 at wraiths/noncorporeals also worked pretty well. Low TDs and the multiple damage cycles to ghosts made them pretty good one shot fodder with the right amount of CS.

Just my perspective from climbing that very slow first set of levels.

[Fallen]

Remember that Channel works with 702 and 705, as well as channeling from offensive for increased damage. Open hands aid 702, but NOT 705. A good combo is to land the stun with 702, then follow up with 705, as it does more damage to stunned foes.

[GS4Merchant]

Alrighty, tell me if I'm trying to be too extreme here at a young age.

But this is what I got laid out for skills @ lvl 25
@ 25
70 Spells (45 Sorc, 25 MnE, No MnS)
25 HP
50 SA
12 EMC
12 SMC
12 MIU
12 AS
12 PT
8 Armor
15 Climb
10 Swim
25 FA (<--- Questionable, I'm sure)

Looking for training advice. I really want to be a sorc with some scary CS for his train.


Wow, just realized I had no lores in there... reworking this.

[zhelas]

I will say that having no minor spirit is a huge mistake. You are missing 102.... This is a major defensive spell for us. Being able to self cast 101, 103 and 107 are nice but I know you can get that from others. 120 is another important defensive spell for us.

[msconstrew]

You're going to miss out on a huge amount of defense if you don't get up to 103, and preferably 107.

[GS4Merchant]

Apologies, I meant to add in there. I'm choosing to do that because of scrolls and because my brother is a cleric. Not the best thing to rely upon, but I did take that into consideration.

[zhelas]

Apologies, I meant to add in there. I'm choosing to do that because of scrolls and because my brother is a cleric. Not the best thing to rely upon, but I did take that into consideration.

Regardless 102 and 120 are important and only get stronger with minor spirit ranks. As creatures start using combat maneuvers and warding spells you will miss those important minor spirit spells. If you want this monster CS, you could forget lores, spell aiming and first aid. You would be a one trick pony though.

[Asha]

I don't know what the formula was that made it so I gained CS when I had more MnS spells. I fixskilled one xmas to reduce my MnS by about 15 and lost some CS.

[Fallen]

Alrighty, tell me if I'm trying to be too extreme here at a young age.

But this is what I got laid out for skills @ lvl 25
@ 25
70 Spells (45 Sorc, 25 MnE, No MnS)
25 HP
50 SA
12 EMC
12 SMC
12 MIU
12 AS
12 PT
8 Armor
15 Climb
10 Swim
25 FA (<--- Questionable, I'm sure)

Looking for training advice. I really want to be a sorc with some scary CS for his train.


Wow, just realized I had no lores in there... reworking this.

I would suggest for a sorcerer the following: Sorcerer, Minor M, Minor E

Level 0 - 1, 1, 1
Level 1 - 1, 1, 1
Level 2 - 1, 1, 1
Level 3 - 2, 0, 1 through level 13 - 2, 0, 1 Giving you 19 sorcerer, 3 Minor Spiritual and 14 Minor Elemental
Level 14 - 2, 1, 0 Through level 17 - 2, 1, 0 Giving you 27 Sorcerer, 7 Minor Spiritual, and 14 Minor Elemental

From there I would keep doubling in the Sorcerer circle whenever points would allow, then bring Minor Elemental up to 430 for the immediate CS/DS gain, then go back to Minor Spiritual up to 120. At that point, you can focus on tripling sorcerer ranks to get your full +20 spell rank lead for maximized CS, then Minor Elemental all the way up to 475, then Minor Spiritual up to that magical 66ish number, and the rest into Sorcerer.

If my numbers are slightly off I imagine you get the idea. I don't think raw tripling at the expense of missing key spells is worth it. Those 5ish CS points wont mean much in the face of large holes in your arsenal. Any time you don't have the points to triple, I would suggest dropping a rank off of your Sorcerer circle training so you wont lose out on gaining access to a new spell.

[GS4Merchant]

It's lookin real good.

At lvl 20, hunting a like lvl creature:

You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Dark Catalyst...
Your spell is ready.
>cast wight
You gesture at an arch wight.
CS: +131 - TD: +54 + CvA: +25 + d100: +91 == +193
Warding failed!
... and hits for 29 points of damage!
An arch wight is suddenly engulfed in flames of pure essence!
... 35 points of damage!
Burst of flames to right arm toasts skin to elbows.
The arch wight shrugs off the cold.
... 30 points of damage!
Heavy spark to back. Bet that hurts.
... 50 points of damage!
Hard strike to left leg breaking tendons and bone!
It is knocked to the ground!
You feel 1 mana surge into you!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

My CS is more than double the targets TD!

Now to attempt to uphunt vs. Magic creatures with DC.


Lol then this happens right after...

An arch wight gestures at you!
The ground beneath your feet begins to boil violently!
Fiery debris explodes from the ground!
... 10 points of damage!
Blow to your neck tears tissue.
You are stunned for 1 round!
... 25 points of damage!
Flames incinerate left leg to the bone. Not a pleasant sight.
You are knocked to the ground!
... 25 points of damage!
Right hand fried to a crisp. Think barbecue sauce.
The ground then quickly cools.
>
An arch wight pounds at you with its fist!
AS: +116 vs DS: +96 with AvD: +42 + d100 roll: +66 = +128
... and hits for 17 points of damage!
Torn muscle in your right leg!
The deep blue glow leaves you.
A dark shadow seems to detach itself from your body, swiftly dissipating into the air.
The light blue glow leaves you.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
The air calms down around you.
The powerful look leaves you.

[crb]

You don't need swimming until you hunt nelemar, the rift, or OTF, so dump it while young.

I recommend doubling in MIU and AS for runestaff defense, you're only .5x them, that is going to make your DS pretty crappy. They're the cheapest way to get such ranks.

They're also intensely beneficial for the duration bonuses they provide. All your scrolls and magic items last much longer per use, so they last longer overall, which means you can more easily boost your DS/TD/AS with outside spells.

I also would seriously consider 1xing pt

[Eoghain]

Drop first aid completely. You don't need it. If anything, throw it into PF or more magical skills to bring up your runestaff defense.

[Murkshev]

Alles klahr Der Kommisar?

[GS4Merchant]

Alrighty, I need some more advice here.

This is the debate:
2x spells, 2x HP, 1x spiritual lore
VS.
2.25x Spells, 1x HP, 1x spiritual lore
VS
2.5x spells, 1x HP

If you had to pick a route, which one would it be? O_o?

Also, here's something that crossed my mind:

When you invoke magic through scrolls and imbeded items, does that magic benefit from your own personal lore training?

EX: Bard's train in air lores a lot, does this mean when they rub a black crystal, they generally have bigger disks?

Another EX: A sorc invokes whispering willow (605), would my summoning lores (at the correct thresholds) allow me to whisper cross realms, etc...?

Right now I'm leaning toward this training plan:
2.25x spells
2x Spell Aim
1x HP
1x EMC
1x SMC
1x MIU
1x AS
1x Demon Lore
1x Spiritual Lore - Summoning
.5x climbing
.33x Armor (til 8 ranks)
.33x Swimming
.25x PT

Will raise PT once Armor is at 8 ranks.

[Jonty]

Unless you want it for RP purposes, or REALLY like the utility benefits you would gain, I'd drop spirit lore and dump the points into more spells.

[Allereli]

When you invoke magic through scrolls and imbeded items, does that magic benefit from your own personal lore training?

EX: Bard's train in air lores a lot, does this mean when they rub a black crystal, they generally have bigger disks?

Another EX: A sorc invokes whispering willow (605), would my summoning lores (at the correct thresholds) allow me to whisper cross realms, etc...?


you're supposed to get credit for half the amount of lore ranks you have

[GS4Merchant]

you're supposed to get credit for half the amount of lore ranks you have

Only half? Sad day. Might just go 20 ranks of summoning then go to 2x HP or 2.5x spells.

[Malisai]

The training plan i use

armor 4 (i wear fulls)
PF - got 24 ranks, then adding ranks as i go, currently about .8x in six levels ill be full 1x and stay that way until cap
1x MIU
1x AS
1x HP
1x perception
1x demon lore
2.5x spells
30 climb - Got this up to pretty quick due to hunting in the Rest (be at 40 ranks at cap)
30 swim - Got some early due to above (be at 40 ranks at cap)

post cap goals are going to be 24 ranks Cm for rank 3 disarm, then 3x spells.

I enjoy being 2.5x in spells. Its not necessary if you want to train other skills, but if you can work it in its nice.

without a doubt you want 102 and 103. thats 30 DS right there. not only that but 102 grows and grows and is a solid defensive spell that you will regret not having once anything can stance or knock you down.

[zhelas]

2.25x spells
2x Spell Aim
1x HP
1x EMC
1x SMC
1x MIU
1x AS
1x Demon Lore
1x Spiritual Lore - Summoning
.5x climbing
.33x Armor (til 8 ranks)
.33x Swimming
.25x PT


I would lower your spirit lore training maybe to .25x. 20 ranks will give you access to web bolting. However at this early stage of your sorcerer's career do you web bolt a lot? One can easily cap with zero spiritual lores.

.5x in climbing .... Why? .. I would have 30 ranks eventually so I can hunt around pinfar. .25x will be fine. If you are worried about the rift, you can easily pick up more post cap ranks.

I would make swiming .25x. Have 30 ranks by the time you hunt the rift and otf. If you are going to hunt the bowels, figure out the puzzle and avoid swimming in. On river rest I did fine with water walking. Will you need more ranks? Depends on where you hunt post cap. 50 ranks with waterwalking is enough to enter nelemar.

I assume 1x demonology is for baelfire. You could switch to necro after 52 ranks of demonology. I recommend that only for the spell pain.

With the extra points dump them into spells 2.4x to 2.5x

[Gibreficul]

My head hurts from all this.

First thing I'm going to point out... this is a dark elf sorcerer. There's not going to be much if any CS issue, even if stats are placed for growth.

Next...

Spell rank distribution... A few things to take into consideration.

Minor elemental ranks should stay close to, or at like-level up through 75 ranks. The bonuses from 425 and 430 are worth it.

Minor spirit circle is important for the DS from 102 and 120. Get to spell 120 ASAP, and then try to keep that circle at 2/3 your level (round up.) That'll give the "maximum" bonus to your sorc CS.

Sorcerers are bad enough at dodging maneuvers, so you should certainly keep PF at 1x. It's worth it.

As for lores... I wouldn't bother with spirit lores at all. The cost to get web-bolt to be anywhere near effective is huge. Just cause you have 20 ranks in summoning and CAN use web-bolt doesn't mean you SHOULD. At 101 ranks, (with my empath) I'm left wanting more when it fails to web something on a hit. That said, demon lore to 20 ranks (so you can take 1 person through a 740 rift) is a good target. I was never a big fan of necro lores, but I never really had any to make a valid assessment of it.

AS/MIU ranks are good. Whatever you can afford is great. Low cost runestaff DS.


Basically, the more spells the better. I made the choice (because I decided against the shitty spirit regen of a dark elf, in favor of the shitty CS stats of a dwarf) to max spells early, and keep them there. I'm missing a TON of stuff that have been said are "necessary" and I do fine. (One such thing is MIU ranks all together.) There's lots of time to fill in the holes post-cap. The strength of a sorcerer is in their sorcerer CS. Everything else that sorcerers can do is a distraction from that simple fact, it's all about your CS.

I HAVE SPOKEN! :club:

[Reltov420]

I had more ranks and more variety of lores before, but after a bunch of testing, I found more benefit from maxing the basic skills more, I'll work on summoning lore after AS, MIU, perception, and harness.


Level 0 Stats

Strength (STR): 88
Constitution (CON): 85
Dexterity (DEX): 62
Agility (AGI): 73
Discipline (DIS): 36
Aura (AUR): 49
Logic (LOG): 62
Intuition (INT): 70
Wisdom (WIS): 62
Influence (INF): 73


Race: Dark Elf Profession: Sorcerer (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 386 Expr: 8206860 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Dexterity (DEX): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Agility (AGI): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Discipline (DIS): 84 (7) ... 84 (7)
Aura (AUR): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Intuition (INT): 98 (29) ... 98 (29)
Wisdom (WIS): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Influence (INF): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)


Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Arcane Symbols.....................| 202 102
Magic Item Use.....................| 201 101
Harness Power......................| 202 102
Elemental Mana Control.............| 175 75
Spirit Mana Control................| 175 75
Sorcerous Lore - Demonology........| 160 60
Perception.........................| 150 50
Climbing...........................| 144 44
Swimming...........................| 120 30

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Minor Spirit.......................| 66

Spell Lists
Sorcerer...........................| 161
Training Points: 9 Phy 0 Mnt (4004 Phy converted to Mnt)