Armor advice

[Kaerika]

Looking for some opinions on if this is a terrible idea or not...

I'm a two-hander open ambush lockpicking rogue, currently wearing brig. I get beat up real bad, all the time, although offensively I'm pretty powerful. I've been thinking of upgrading armor at the urging of a few friends, but wanted a few more opinions before doing anything drastic.

My training points have been kinda messed up since learning up to 404; it doesn't prevent me from training all the things I want to each level, but it does mean that I never actually get any mental points. I end up with some crazy pile of physical points.

I'm thinking about spending my entire next training on armor use, which would almost get me into metal breastplate. A few more points from the following training should get me there, and then I could play catch up on my regular training. Plus, then my points should actually even out, which should make it easier to catch up.

Thanks for any input!

[DaCapn]

My THW character is a bit different (no lockpicking, does hide, has 410). Mine uses chain shirt but couldn't get away with that without 410. I'd definitely say that you should go into heavy armor. You're going to spend a lot of time in the open in offensive swinging a maul and you'll need something to mitigate that risk. I'm ever-the-advocate of 410 but in this case it's fun with THW to level the room and just one-shot everything one at a time.

With the MBP you'll have much better defense against creatures dropping in unexpectedly, with 410 you'll be able to deal with a static room of 3-4 creatures better.

My stance on TP conversion has always been that goals are goals. If you have to convert TPs, just do it.

[Kaerika]

Thanks for the tips! 410 is out of the question, but I'll go for the armor upgrade.

[kookiegod]

Could you post your skills for a better analysis?

[Kaerika]

Kaerika (at level 39), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 120 30
Combat Maneuvers...................| 169 69
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 182 82
Ambush.............................| 141 41
Physical Fitness...................| 141 41
Dodging............................| 182 82
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 62 13
Disarming Traps....................| 182 82
Picking Locks......................| 182 82
Perception.........................| 182 82
Climbing...........................| 50 10


Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4

[Sygil81]

I've hunted with you before, and sorry I'm not there to haste you!

You fight like a warrior. You've trained like a warrior in every aspect, except armor. I would say regardless of your regular training, getting into a plate armor class will be your biggest benefit. Catch up on your normal training later.

Can you post your CM training and possibly elaborate on what exactly is killing you? Is it getting warded? Flares? Or just straight up getting whacked, stunned, then pecked to death?

Plate will help you with getting warded with better CvA.

Plate will help you from getting pecked to death and may even prevent the stuns in the first place.

Plate will NOT help you if you are getting cheap shotted by a maneuver attack or nabbed by a death crit flare after getting hit for 1 damage.

PS: I fully admit my error on the disarm enhancement thing a while back :P :P At least I got eaten by that scarab too. Good to see you have it self cast now!

[Divinity]

I've hunted with you before, and sorry I'm not there to haste you!

You fight like a warrior. You've trained like a warrior in every aspect, except armor. I would say regardless of your regular training, getting into a plate armor class will be your biggest benefit. Catch up on your normal training later.

Can you post your CM training and possibly elaborate on what exactly is killing you? Is it getting warded? Flares? Or just straight up getting whacked, stunned, then pecked to death?

Plate will help you with getting warded with better CvA.

Plate will help you from getting pecked to death and may even prevent the stuns in the first place.

Plate will NOT help you if you are getting cheap shotted by a maneuver attack or nabbed by a death crit flare after getting hit for 1 damage.

PS: I fully admit my error on the disarm enhancement thing a while back :P :P At least I got eaten by that scarab too. Good to see you have it self cast now!

That's what I pretty much said too, looking at her and fighting beside her. She tends to be pecked to death, stunned and wtfpwnd after it. If you relinquished some of your other priorities and got into some plate you would be able to do better hunting.

Like I've said, it's really up to you. What you wanted to do and what your IG friend is suggesting isn't going to be the same thing though.

[Kitsun]

You don't have to insta-dump all your TPs for next level into Armor Use. You can step it up a little bit and try out some chain AsGs to see if it helps. DF boost from chain may be enough to make you feel more comfortable with your style.

[kookiegod]

Kaerika (at level 39), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 120 30
Combat Maneuvers...................| 169 69
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 182 82
Ambush.............................| 141 41
Physical Fitness...................| 141 41
Dodging............................| 182 82
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 62 13
Disarming Traps....................| 182 82
Picking Locks......................| 182 82
Perception.........................| 182 82
Climbing...........................| 50 10


Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4

The minimal spells can wait, put them into more dodge for DS.

Why 2x in perception? 1x is good enough, more points to spend elsewhere, like armor, since if your're going to fight in the open, going to need it.

Be interesting to see what you use for CMANs and the society, and you doing guilld work?

[DaCapn]

As far as offensive CMs go, dirtkick is probably the best one a rogue can get.

[Kaerika]

I've hunted with you before, and sorry I'm not there to haste you!
Can you post your CM training and possibly elaborate on what exactly is killing you? Is it getting warded? Flares? Or just straight up getting whacked, stunned, then pecked to death?
!

Yay Gildran! I miss you, buddy. I just haven't been in Icemule in a long time. I'll make it a point to come visit!

Generally, the way my hunts go is I'll do pretty well, taking minor damage (10-30) and minor stuns (a couple rounds), but I run Sigil of Mending constantly, so I usually regen more than I take. Eventually, right about the time I think I should probably head in, I run into some bad luck like getting knocked over while stunned and a few serious hits will take me out.

My TD is garbage, so I try to avoid magical creatures. It's not very often maneuver attacks kill me, so I'm not worried about getting help there.




You don't have to insta-dump all your TPs for next level into Armor Use. You can step it up a little bit and try out some chain AsGs to see if it helps. DF boost from chain may be enough to make you feel more comfortable with your style.

Up to what? Regular chainmail? Would that be worth it, and worth finding a solid set of that? I'm using 5x damage padded brig right now, so I feel like I'd need a pretty good set of chainmail to make the switch worth it. That, if I need better armor, I should at least move up to MBP.




The minimal spells can wait, put them into more dodge for DS.

Why 2x in perception? 1x is good enough, more points to spend elsewhere, like armor, since if your're going to fight in the open, going to need it.

Be interesting to see what you use for CMANs and the society, and you doing guilld work?

The spells I already have? I need them for locksmithing. Ditto the 2x perception. I don't turn down any boxes, so I'm still occasionally killed by traps I don't see, like that nasty minotaur scarab last night. Plus 3x dodge gets way expensive.

Society is Sunfist, which helps me out tremendously. If I had more mana, I could run the protection sigils more often, but they're really expensive. As it is, I run Sigil of Offense, Defense, Mending and Concentration the entire hunt, with bursts of the major offense and defense ones as I think I need them.

My CMANs are not the optimal choices, I know. I have fifth rank in coup de grace and groin kick, and up to third in sucker punch.

I don't do guild work anymore, no; I can't handle the grind. I learned the gambits I wanted to learn, and I do lockmastery as it comes. I picked up groin kick as an alternative to sweep, and to help deal with casters.




As far as offensive CMs go, dirtkick is probably the best one a rogue can get.

I considered it, but that doesn't seem worth it for a rogue that fights like a warrior.

[DaCapn]

I considered it, but that doesn't seem worth it for a rogue that fights like a warrior.

Dirt kick is as cheap as they get CM-point wise (and pretty much stamina-wise as well). It can be delivered from defensive stance, can stun & inflict RT, it's ruinous to EBP, and it reduces AS (both of which are pretty useful to someone spending time in the open). The perception penalty isn't particularly useful for you but even still it seems better than sucker punch to me. Using maneuvers from defensive stance is HUGE.

Personally, here's what I'd do:
- Drop coup de grace (you shouldn't end up with the situation where you've plinked a creature to 50% health)
- Get 2 ranks combat mobility (of my CM list, this is the last one I'd want to give up)
- Get 5 ranks dirtkick (like I said it's awesome)
- Juggle points with groin kick and sucker punch and sacrifice some towards above goals (I'd suggest dropping a point in gkick because you need less of an advantage if you mostly use it against casters)

Specifically, I'd do this: -5 coup, -1 gkick, +5 dkick, +2 mobility, +1 spunch. This results in 4 gkick, 4 spunch, 5 dirtkick, 2 mobility.


I don't do guild work anymore, no; I can't handle the grind. I learned the gambits I wanted to learn, and I do lockmastery as it comes. I picked up groin kick as an alternative to sweep, and to help deal with casters.

The guild work grind does suck and you have less tasks per rank if your rank capacity is much greater than your current ranks. On the other hand, stunmans are really useful (I was mastered early 30s and was pretty thankful for it on many occasions), and you will want to get some baseline ranks in the offensive skills so they're not such a pain to master. I'm mastering cheapshot right now and I had 5 ranks up through mid 70's. It has made creature reps pretty painful (prone+stun+subdue to get 50-60 endroll advantage). Find the players who are good resources for partner reps. Midgar (when he's in the Landing) and Ohnus (in Icemule) were always incredibly helpful. And most importantly, remember to give back yourself.

[Kaerika]

Dirt kick is as cheap as they get CM-point wise (and pretty much stamina-wise as well). It can be delivered from defensive stance, can stun & inflict RT, it's ruinous to EBP, and it reduces AS (both of which are pretty useful to someone spending time in the open). The perception penalty isn't particularly useful for you but even still it seems better than sucker punch to me. Using maneuvers from defensive stance is HUGE.

Personally, here's what I'd do:
- Drop coup de grace (you shouldn't end up with the situation where you've plinked a creature to 50% health)
- Get 2 ranks combat mobility (of my CM list, this is the last one I'd want to give up)
- Get 5 ranks dirtkick (like I said it's awesome)
- Juggle points with groin kick and sucker punch and sacrifice some towards above goals (I'd suggest dropping a point in gkick because you need less of an advantage if you mostly use it against casters)

Specifically, I'd do this: -5 coup, -1 gkick, +5 dkick, +2 mobility, +1 spunch. This results in 4 gkick, 4 spunch, 5 dirtkick, 2 mobility.


The thing with Coup is I'm most often hunting with another person, so between their attacks and mine (my main weapon is expertly damage weighted), I can usually do a coup pretty quickly. Plus it's such a fun move, especially bare handed. Spunch is a good pair with that, since if I am on my own, I can quickly stun the thing to execute my Coup.

I'm open to dirt kick (I didn't know you could use it in defensive!), but I think it'll have to be next on the list to add, and if I'm focusing on armor for a bit, it'll be a while before I can gain CM points.

Mobility seems way expensive for what it is...

I'll admit your proposed cman plan would make me a more capable fighter... I'll consider dropping coup, but I do really like it. It's such a fun toy; also, it will take forever to convert so many CM points.




The guild work grind does suck and you have less tasks per rank if your rank capacity is much greater than your current ranks. On the other hand, stunmans are really useful (I was mastered early 30s and was pretty thankful for it on many occasions), and you will want to get some baseline ranks in the offensive skills so they're not such a pain to master. I'm mastering cheapshot right now and I had 5 ranks up through mid 70's. It has made creature reps pretty painful (prone+stun+subdue to get 50-60 endroll advantage). Find the players who are good resources for partner reps. Midgar (when he's in the Landing) and Ohnus (in Icemule) were always incredibly helpful. And most importantly, remember to give back yourself.

Stunmans seem really useful, but the grind is just too much. I'm also a crazy person and do everything 100% manual - no scripts. There's no way I have the patience to master that skill tree.

Cheapshots are not so so bad to learn, but I feel like I can make up for them with cmans, even though I've chosen sub-optimal ones. I think I have two or three ranks in cheapshots, but I end up getting stuck on the "ask another person to train with you" parts.

[DaCapn]

Mobility seems way expensive for what it is...

I acknowledge that offensive CMs are a big personal preference things. However, there are few combat-functional operations which can be done while in RT (vanish and combat mobility are the only real things that come to mind). It has saved me so many times against bandits, in warcamps, and against anything with air lore & call wind. It's a major CM.


Stunmans seem really useful, but the grind is just too much. I'm also a crazy person and do everything 100% manual - no scripts. There's no way I have the patience to master that skill tree.

Cheapshots are not so so bad to learn, but I feel like I can make up for them with cmans, even though I've chosen sub-optimal ones. I think I have two or three ranks in cheapshots, but I end up getting stuck on the "ask another person to train with you" parts.

It's true that you could potentially open up a lot more CM points by replacing groin kick and sucker punch with cheapshots (whether or not they're quite as good mechanically, I can't say).

With regards to scripting: I know no one can force you to stop your own willful self-punishment but I'll make one quick appeal as I always do. You're doing something you hate. You can make a small time investment to learn to write scripts to do it for you. You'll waste less time, be happier, be more productive, and be able to do more in life. Also, you're probably less likely to suffer from carpel tunnel syndrome. I'm not a "warm and fuzzy" kind of person, but there is a "the world could be a better place" aspect to people not forcing themselves to go about some task in the most painfully inefficient and slow way that exists.

[Buckwheet]

Somewhere someone has the GM quote where they said having a lower group of armor with HCP is not nearly as good as having the next armor group.

IE HCP brig is not as good as plain ole hauberk. Pickup enough ranks for aug chain and throw on a suit. You should see nice improvements all around. I would say you could get by with the 50 ranks for now.

Ah here we go I found something even better:

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Crit_padding#Critical_.28or_Crit.29

[Kaerika]

I acknowledge that offensive CMs are a big personal preference things. However, there are few combat-functional operations which can be done while in RT (vanish and combat mobility are the only real things that come to mind). It has saved me so many times against bandits, in warcamps, and against anything with air lore & call wind. It's a major CM.

That's a pretty good point, yeah. Would you take that over dirt kick in terms of priority, though?



Somewhere someone has the GM quote where they said having a lower group of armor with HCP is not nearly as good as having the next armor group.

IE HCP brig is not as good as plain ole hauberk.



That's the most convincing thing I've heard in this thread. Thank you.

[thefarmer]

Ah here we go I found something even better:

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Crit_padding#Critical_.28or_Crit.29

"Padding + Enhancement : For these purposes, enhancement refers to resistance to specific damage types, an active bless, or TD enhancement. Armor accessories with such enhancements cause padding of the base armor to be halved in effectiveness. e.g. Heavily critical padded hauberk worn with blessed leg greaves results in somewhat damage padding of the legs."

This typo made me chuckle.... Until I realized that some less experienced people might actually think this isn't an error, due to it being on Krakiipedia.

If anyone happens to have an account and is reading this thread maybe they can fix that.

[Shaps]

Read the Krakii post on armor accessories and armor, but still a tad confused:

Example:

A set of 6x spiked, void flaring Full plate
WORN WITH
A set of HCP, Major Fire Resistant legguards

Would result in?

Thanks for the help.

[Senglent]

Read the Krakii post on armor accessories and armor, but still a tad confused:

Example:

A set of 6x spiked, void flaring Full plate
WORN WITH
A set of HCP, Major Fire Resistant legguards

Would result in?

Thanks for the help.

you would still get the flares but you would only get SWC padding on the legs instead of heavy.

[Jonty]

True story:

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=414160#post414160



You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a vultite maul at Perigourd!
AS: +414 vs DS: +12 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +61 = +498
... and hit for 6 points of damage!
Solid strike caves Perigourd's skull in, resulting in instant death!

Obviously, this isn't something you will be worrying about. This was in a test instance of the game, and Perigourd managed to get some crazy damage padded plate.

But in all seriousness, one thing to consider about moving up to a higher AG is the crit divisor is it will make some hits that used to result in minors just end up as damage without wounds. No amount of padding can do that.

[m444w]

you would still get the flares but you would only get SWC padding on the legs instead of heavy.

you would not get leg flares since the greaves cover the full plate leg region.