Lore and Sorcerer Training Costs

[crb]

x-post from officials.


FACT: Sorcerers are the only profession expected to train in 3 disparate lore skills.
FACT: Sorcerers are the only pure profession with a 0/7 base cost for a lore skill they're expected to train in.
FACT: This 0/7 base cost is the highest cost for a single lore rank of any pure profession in a lore expected to train in.
FACT: When totaled, for one rank in each lore, a sorcerer spends 0/20, an empath 0/12, a wizard 0/6, a cleric 0/6.
FACT: A sorcerer, a supposed hybrid, pays more for spiritual lore, than an empath, another supposed hybrid.
FACT: Sorcerer Lore is the only lore skill in the entire game that modifies only 1 spell circle.

There is absolutely no logical reason for sorcerers to pay 0/7 for spiritual lore when empaths pay 0/6.

This problem exists because during the changeover to GS4 there was a significant failure in balance discussions. Sorcerers, as a profession, also got the fewest releases at the time, Nilven was fairly MIA. One can only assume that this is the reason for such a failure in logical game balance sorcery lacked an advocate in internal discussions at the time.

Someone set the minimum lore cost at 0/6, arbitrarily, not thinking through the concept of how many circles that lore skill has the power to modify. This balance of power vs utility is a key component of game design, you'll find it in most skills and spells in game. A spell may be powerful, but in exchange it may not work against many targets: balance.

So, because the minimum was 0/6, it was thought, spiritual and elemental should not be as easy as sorcery for sorcerers, so they would have to be higher. This is a correct assumption, theoretically, but the minimum cost skews it resulting in a situation where one hybrid pays more than the other hybrid.

I hope no one who is not being purposefully disingenuous does not claim that this is an unbalanced and unfair situation for sorcerers. I think this is clearly fairly obvious, so I won't bother going further to back up the claim of unbalance.

Now, the question is, what can be done about it?

The problem is that other pure professions enjoy a cost of 0/2 for lore on a per circle basis (wizards and clerics) or a cost of 0/3 on a per circle basis (empaths with spirit) or a cost of 0/6 on a per circle basis (empaths with mental). I can accept that wizards & clerics have the lowest cost as the pure pures, and the higher hybrid cost is the trade off for flexibility. Fine. The average empath lore cost per circle (0/12 to modify 3 circles) is 0/4. The average sorcerer lore cost per circle is 0/6.66. More than 50% higher than the empath cost.

The goal then should be to lower the sorcerer per circle cost to make it as close to 0/4 as possible, which is still DOUBLE the per circle cost of wizards and clerics, by the way.

That would mean coming up with a maximum of 12 mtps for 3 lore skills, or 4 a piece.

While it is unfair for sorcerers to pay more than empaths for the same lore skill. I also, however, feel that it is unfair for sorcerers to pay LESS than empaths for the same lore skill as well.

So we should keep Spirit and Elemental lore skills for sorcerers at no less than 0/6, down from the 0/7 they are currently.

If we did that, and only that, it would lower aggregate sorcerer lore training costs to 0/18, making the per circle cost 0/6, or still 50% higher than what empaths pay.

The solution is to additionally lower the sorcerer lore training cost. As the only, the only, lore skill in game that modifies just one circle, I believe it should have the lowest training cost in game. Additionally, from a balance perspective, most sorcerer lore tie ins that exist today are on a per level basis, which means we have to get a lot of ranks as we age.

At the very highest it should be 0/5, making it the cheapest in game. However, a fair number I feel would be 0/3. If a 0/6 lore modifies two circles or three circles. Then at the very least a lore that modifies only 1 circle should cost 0/3.

This would make aggregate sorcerer lore training STILL THE HIGHEST IN GAME at 0/15 or 0/5 per circle on average, or 250% more than what wizards and clerics pay, and 25% more than what empaths pay. However, the disparity would be much much less, and far more manageable.

One might say "Changing training costs, baloney, we're not doing that." Well, if you made a mistake, and I think clearly you did, when assigning the costs to begin with, why NOT change them?

But okay, the other solution is to edit the 40+ spells in the MnS and MnE spell circles to each have sorcerer lore tie-ins.

A third solution would be to remove sorcerer lores entirely from the system, and then edit the 20+ sorcerer spells to instead using MnE and MnS lores, while at the same time lowering those costs to 0/6. So this one involves massive spell recoding and mangler changing, AND item changing for all the sorcerer lore using items out there. Probably the most time consuming one.

I think Option A is the best solution, we just need the will to make it so.

[whiteflash]

Thanks for riding them about this still crb. Every time I read the numbers I get all twitchy. I think I have to go over to the officials to post my agreement.

[Asha]

A good time to bring it up.

[crb]

I should have predicted the eventual appearance of wizard/cleric tweedledee and tweedledum on the officials. Seems like any and every time any sorcerer has any idea for any improvement or change they come in banging their heads together like a couple of empty coconuts spouting some new form of verbal diarrhea.

[Ardwen]

reminds me why I havent played my sorcerer since well gs3 heh

[audioserf]

I came back a few years ago, after having played a sorceror to 115ish in GS3. I was planning to roll up a new one, but had a poke around KP, the forums, and Simu's page, and upon noticing all the component bullshit, lore requirements, and general lack of dev went "Heh nope" and rolled a mage. I regret nothing

[whiteflash]

I came back a few years ago, after having played a sorceror to 115ish in GS3. I was planning to roll up a new one, but had a poke around KP, the forums, and Simu's page, and upon noticing all the component bullshit, lore requirements, and general lack of dev went "Heh nope" and rolled a mage. I regret nothing

I regret nothing!

A Grimswarm giant marauder treads in, ready for combat!
A Grimswarm giant cleric strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant fighter treads in, ready for combat!
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher rushes in!
A Grimswarm giant mage strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher rushes in!
A Grimswarm giant elementalist strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant mage strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant adept strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant pillager rushes in!

>prep 717
> cast

You gesture.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant skirmisher.
CS: +557 - TD: +419 + CvA: +8 + d100: +53 == +199
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant skirmisher drops its katar.
The giant skirmisher lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant skirmisher falls to the ground and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant mage.
CS: +557 - TD: +449 + CvA: +11 + d100: +61 == +180
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant mage looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant mage drops its rune staff.
The mage turns and runs screaming into the distance, never to be seen again.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant skirmisher.
CS: +557 - TD: +428 + CvA: +8 + d100: +83 == +220
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant skirmisher drops its reinforced shield.
The giant skirmisher drops its hook-knife.
The giant skirmisher lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant skirmisher falls to the ground and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant fighter.
CS: +557 - TD: +389 + CvA: -13 + d100: +77 == +232
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant fighter looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant fighter drops its war mattock.
The giant fighter lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant fighter falls to the ground and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant cleric.
CS: +557 - TD: +465 + CvA: +17 + d100: +11 == +120
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant cleric looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant cleric drops its rune staff.
The giant cleric bolts south!
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant marauder.
CS: +557 - TD: +416 + CvA: -13 + d100: +59 == +187
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant marauder looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant marauder drops its reinforced shield.
The giant marauder drops its cudgel.
The marauder turns and runs screaming into the distance, never to be seen again.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant mage.
CS: +557 - TD: +438 + CvA: +11 + d100: +90 == +220
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant mage looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant mage drops its rune staff.
The giant mage lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant mage falls to the ground and dies.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a Grimswarm giant mage.
The translucent sphere fades from around a Grimswarm giant mage.
A Grimswarm giant mage becomes solid again.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around a Grimswarm giant mage.
A Grimswarm giant mage appears somehow different.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant mage.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
CS: +557 - TD: +446 + CvA: +11 + d100: +97 == +219
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant elementalist looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant elementalist drops its small shield.
The giant elementalist drops its hook-knife.
The giant elementalist lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant elementalist falls to the ground and dies.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
A Grimswarm giant elementalist glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
The giant elementalist no longer bristles with energy.
The bright luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant pillager.
CS: +557 - TD: +432 + CvA: +8 + d100: +72 == +205
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant pillager looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant pillager drops its hook-knife.
The giant pillager lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant pillager rolls over and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant adept.
CS: +557 - TD: +457 + CvA: +11 + d100: +89 == +200
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant adept looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant adept drops its rune staff.
The giant adept lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant adept falls to the ground and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
A Grimswarm giant adept appears somehow different.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.

[Asha]

The attack spells were never a problem for me. What made me get rid of my 9 year old annihilator was the fact that I couldn't cast 2 of my most powerful spells without items from a fucking shop.
Oh Jesus don't get me started on the components.
I fucking LOVE my ranger.

[whiteflash]

Yea, the component thing sucks, so does the req for 1x necro to use animate dead. So many restrictions on what should be such a cool spell.

I made a few scripts to make the demon thing not such a pain, auto grab and refresh when the thing is soon to leave type stuff. Apart from the new balefire tie in, the only place I found demons useful was rift for picking up cursed gems. So obnoxious they make it illegal to have them in most towns, just more hoops.

I had a 135 wizard before the switch, so I really enjoy the sorc thing and never knew the glory of previous 702/719 so I have no sadness from losing them!

[crb]

I regret nothing!

A Grimswarm giant marauder treads in, ready for combat!
A Grimswarm giant cleric strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant fighter treads in, ready for combat!
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher rushes in!
A Grimswarm giant mage strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher rushes in!
A Grimswarm giant elementalist strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant mage strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant adept strides in, glowering upon the scene.
A Grimswarm giant pillager rushes in!

>prep 717
> cast

You gesture.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant skirmisher.
CS: +557 - TD: +419 + CvA: +8 + d100: +53 == +199
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant skirmisher drops its katar.
The giant skirmisher lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant skirmisher falls to the ground and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant mage.
CS: +557 - TD: +449 + CvA: +11 + d100: +61 == +180
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant mage looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant mage drops its rune staff.
The mage turns and runs screaming into the distance, never to be seen again.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant skirmisher.
CS: +557 - TD: +428 + CvA: +8 + d100: +83 == +220
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant skirmisher looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant skirmisher drops its reinforced shield.
The giant skirmisher drops its hook-knife.
The giant skirmisher lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant skirmisher falls to the ground and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant fighter.
CS: +557 - TD: +389 + CvA: -13 + d100: +77 == +232
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant fighter looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant fighter drops its war mattock.
The giant fighter lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant fighter falls to the ground and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant cleric.
CS: +557 - TD: +465 + CvA: +17 + d100: +11 == +120
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant cleric looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant cleric drops its rune staff.
The giant cleric bolts south!
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant marauder.
CS: +557 - TD: +416 + CvA: -13 + d100: +59 == +187
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant marauder looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant marauder drops its reinforced shield.
The giant marauder drops its cudgel.
The marauder turns and runs screaming into the distance, never to be seen again.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant mage.
CS: +557 - TD: +438 + CvA: +11 + d100: +90 == +220
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant mage looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant mage drops its rune staff.
The giant mage lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant mage falls to the ground and dies.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a Grimswarm giant mage.
The translucent sphere fades from around a Grimswarm giant mage.
A Grimswarm giant mage becomes solid again.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around a Grimswarm giant mage.
A Grimswarm giant mage appears somehow different.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant mage.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
CS: +557 - TD: +446 + CvA: +11 + d100: +97 == +219
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant elementalist looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant elementalist drops its small shield.
The giant elementalist drops its hook-knife.
The giant elementalist lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant elementalist falls to the ground and dies.
The tingling sensation and sense of security leaves a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
A Grimswarm giant elementalist glances around, looking a bit less confident.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
The giant elementalist no longer bristles with energy.
The bright luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant elementalist.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant pillager.
CS: +557 - TD: +432 + CvA: +8 + d100: +72 == +205
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant pillager looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant pillager drops its hook-knife.
The giant pillager lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant pillager rolls over and dies.
Your violet eye turns to stare at a Grimswarm giant adept.
CS: +557 - TD: +457 + CvA: +11 + d100: +89 == +200
Warding failed!
A Grimswarm giant adept looks at your violet eye in fear!
The giant adept drops its rune staff.
The giant adept lets out a blood curdling scream!
The giant adept falls to the ground and dies.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
A Grimswarm giant adept appears somehow different.
The shimmering multicolored sphere fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
The silvery luminescence fades from around a Grimswarm giant adept.
I probably no longer have this log.

But you ever see a wizard cone of lightning to death a room of over 100 raving lunatics? And it was even player safe so he didn't get me as I was walking through.

[whiteflash]

I probably no longer have this log.

But you ever see a wizard cone of lightning to death a room of over 100 raving lunatics? And it was even player safe so he didn't get me as I was walking through.

Ha no, but this spell would certainly kill ALL the lunatics not only some!

But I would like to see that log, mass attacking is always fun to watch. Really wish I had kept the cpu with all our old ones, oh well.

[Fallen]

Well, one important thing to consider is that you have to be extremely post-capped to pull off your log, Whiteflash, as impressive as it may be. A well-trained wizard can manage to cone kill a whole room pre-cap. That being said, I would put wizards well ahead of sorcerers as needing the most core work and polishing at this point.

[whiteflash]

Well, one important thing to consider is that you have to be extremely post-capped to pull off your log, Whiteflash, as impressive as it may be. A well-trained wizard can manage to cone kill a whole room pre-cap. That being said, I would put wizards well ahead of sorcerers as needing the most core work and polishing at this point.

In this I would disagree some, I was 3x spells at cap. Only thing I have obtained post cap are the enhancives, which I could hand to someone level 30 and they could use to gain max benefit (+20 CS). I would argue using a full enhancive set and a quartz orb (which I was not in that log) would obtain similar results no matter the level. I was at least 2.9x spells from 0-100.

Though a double open void would do much the same at almost any point in a sorcerer's training.

I posted mainly in jest to Audio's comments about how he doesn't regret picking a wizard. I think both classes are fun.

[Fallen]

I would say being fully 3xed in spells at cap would be considered at the extreme end of a pure build, if not a downright mutant. That is quite a bit of sacrifice to achieve those results. I'm not saying it isn't a worthwhile build, just that most aren't willing to cut out nearly everything else for the sake of all that CS.

[whiteflash]

Latest Reputation Received
Thread Date Comment
Red :( Lore and Sorcerer... 12-14-2011 10:16 AM CS is for show. Its like someone winning a Driving contest in golf. (And Dark Elves suck ass.) A dwarf or giant can clear a room using non-CS spells, and still retain all their superior benefits of more hitpoints, better spirit regen, etc.

lol.

Didn't realize I said anything about other races, or mentioned dark elves at all.

But I agree! Anonymous repper! All sorcerers should do their best to maximize their bolt attack and possibly two handed weapon swinging. This is the way we were designed and should be used.

Buying a fixskill!

[audioserf]

Wow, someone has a very small d*ck folks

[audioserf]

I, too, am angry IRL about a guy in Gem Stone IV using CS spells well. As a Giantman Sorceror, I

[crb]

Well, one important thing to consider is that you have to be extremely post-capped to pull off your log, Whiteflash, as impressive as it may be. A well-trained wizard can manage to cone kill a whole room pre-cap. That being said, I would put wizards well ahead of sorcerers as needing the most core work and polishing at this point.
I would disagree mightily with that last portion.

Wizards may have some pointless spells, like Spell Store, but on the other hand, they have 2 full professional circles available to them. Plus the enchanting welfare system (where you get a monthly payment for next to no work), and game changer spells like cone, haste, and rapidfire.

[Fallen]

Their lores are worthless outside of haste and immolation.

[GS4Merchant]

Their lores are worthless outside of haste and immolation.

If I may say, the spells they have are already effective enough. That's a bonus if you ask me (Oh I get to save TPs because our spells are effective enough as is? Thanks Simu).

Also, what you deem "worthless" may be "useful" to other people. They've definitely got more options on unique training paths IMO.

Also to note as cbr said, the whole enchant item thing being a cash cow. When do Sorcs get the ability to enhance TD/CS of items/armor? :D

[Fallen]

I could argue, but this isn't the thread for it. That, and you'll get Rimalon upset, and you wouldn't want to see Rimalon when he gets upset.

[crb]

Their lores are worthless outside of haste and immolation.
And every bolt/ball spell.

But they do need a lore review, and one has been scheduled for like, 4 years, so they'll get it eventually.

Still.... haste, rapidfire, cone.

[Rimalon]

Hey! Hey! What?! I closed my accounts, remember?!

I would reopen them if the E-Lore review finally comes down the pipe and I could solo the Scatter (if the new GM keeps much of the same, the changes to TD pushdown for elemental saturation and CS bonus for 513 with Fire Lore should be enough).

The correct Wizard build is pretty imba at cap (read: immolation), but other than that they're pretty boring, honestly. Effective yes, boring yes. A lot of the proposed E-Lore Review changes weren't really about making Wizards superhunters x2, it was just about making them interesting.

If Wizards had USABLE versions of Boil Earth, Meteor Swarm, Weaponfire, Sandstorm, et al, the fucking game would break.

I should have someone post up to the officials all the logical shit I've posted over the years that Naos refused to do just because he's Naos.

In conclusion, all the pures still need quite a bit to catch up to Empaths, who, as we've often discussed, are just a fucking joke.