Polearm DS and Possible Bug with Halberds and Lances

[Riltus]

I bugitem'd this in game. I don't have a lot of experience with polearms, however, while mucking about with them I noticed that the DS from the weapon enchant bonus with halberds and lances was half that of all other similarly enchanted two-hand gripped polearms.

Edited to add: The polearms that I tested were off-the-shelf from the landing and solhaven. The enchant bonus was from three sources: Wizard enchanted, minor elemental edge (902), and e-bladed (411).

Stance Defensive Results:

Weapon|+0 Bonus]|+5 Bonus|+15 Bonus|+20 Bonus|DS Increase w/+20 Bonus
Halberd|274|276|281|283|+9
Lance|274|276|281|283|+9
||||
Spear 2|274|278|288|292|+18
Trident 2|274|278|288|292|+18
Naginata|274|278|288|292|+18
Jeddart-axe|274|278|288|292|+18
Hammer of Kai|274|278|288|292|+18
Awl-pike|274|278|288|292|+18


The two-handed polearm DS formula is a tough nut to crack. One-hand polearms use the standard one-hand weapon parry DS formula:


[((Weapon ranks + ST/4 + DE/4 + (enchant bonus/2)) * stance] + stance/2

Note: Stance/2 is 0, 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 from Off to Def, respectively.

The base formula for two-handed polearms is the standard two-handed weapon parry DS formula with two main differences. The first is the calculation of the enchant DS bonus. The second is the additional bonus that two-handed polearms receive.

The weapon enchant DS bonus is modified by stance, and as best as I can determine, the stance modifiers are approximately:

Two-hand Polearm (Enchant DS Bonus) Stance Modifiers.

Stance|Stance Modifier
Offensive|.275
Advanced|.40
Forward|.525
Neutral|.65
Guarded|.775
Defensive|.90


Another possibility is that the stance modifier formula is (enchant bonus * stance * 4/3). Where stance is .2, .3, .4, .5, .6, .7 and the halberd and lance are using (enchant bonus * stance * 2/3).

The polearm bonus is another headache. When a polearm is held with 0 weapon ranks the user receives a DS bonus. That bonus is (30 * stance), where stance is 50% + (stance/2). So, the bonus by stance is:

Two-handed Polearm Bonus w/0 weapon ranks

Stance|Bonus
Offensive|15
Advanced|18
Forward|21
Neutral|24
Guarded|27
Defensive|30


Once a character trains 1 rank in polearms that bonus decreases slightly and continues to decrease with additional ranks. I've been unable to find an expression that satisfies the empirical data for this inverse relationship.

Two-Handed Polearm DS Bonus w/N weapon ranks

Ranks|Off|Adv|For|Neu|Gua|Def
1|15|17|21|23|25|29
2|14|18|20|24|26|29
3|14|18|20|22|26|28
4|14|17|20|23|25|28
5|14|17|20|23|26|28
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10|15|18|20|23|25|27
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15|15|17|19|21|25|27
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20|14|18|19|22|25|26
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32|14|17|18|21|23|26


The two-handed polearm parry DS formula is:


(Weapon ranks + ST/4 + DE/4) * stance modifier * 1.5) + (enchant bonus * enchant bonus stance modifier) + (stance/2) + (polearm bonus * polearm bonus stance modifier)

There are three different sets of stance modifiers used in the formula: Base stance modifiers, weapon enchant bonus stance modifiers, and polearm bonus stance modifiers.

Additional Notes:

Holding an item in the off hand incurs a pretty severe parry DS penalty with two-handed polearms. The amount of DS retained is 1/2 the one hand polearm DS. This includes half of the one hand pole enchant DS bonus. You also lose the entire two-hand polearm bonus. You still receive the full stance/2 bonus. The parry DS formula for two-hand polearms with an item in the off hand is:


[((Weapon ranks + ST/4 + DE/4 + (enchant bonus/2)) * stance] / 2 + Stance/2

Trident with two hand grip:
AS: -48 vs DS: +218 with AvD: +4 + d100 roll: +98 = -164

Trident with one hand grip:
AS: -48 vs DS: +166 with AvD: +4 + d100 roll: +14 = -196

Trident with two hand grip and item in left hand:
AS: -48 vs DS: +146 with AvD: +4 + d100 roll: +26 = -164

Also, ranged attacks (magical bolts, arrows/bolts, hurled weapons) completely bypass all polearm parry DS including the stance/2 bonus.

You swing a closed fist at Character!
AS: -48 vs DS: +292 with AvD: +4 + d100 roll: +42 = -294

You hurl a small surge of electricity at Character!
AS: +107 vs DS: +191 with AvD: +24 + d100 roll: +28 = -32

Mark

[Asrial]

Mark, be very careful on testing with ranged attacks and 0 weapon skill...

For the longest time I kept putting "stance / 2" in dodge DS because of the bug with ranged defense.

It SHOULD still be around.. which is funny.. because it's not really been kept a secret at all.

If you're not aware...

Normally, when you get hit by a ranged attack, you do NOT get "stance / 2" from the parry DS formula.

However, if you have 0 weapon ranks in the weapon you're using, you DO get "stance / 2".

The moment you get 1 rank.. you lose it completely. Just FYI to avoid possible data confusion.

.

Interesting results. I'll need to revisit this post later so I can read it more in depth.

I do concur with your findings though.. when I did all my work on the DS formulas, polearm DS was very much an oddity with results.

[Drew]

Hmm I always thought the polearm defense bonus was a flat bonus. Good to know it's otherwise.

[GTG]

damn, I want my 9 DS.

[Riltus]

Two things:

First, the DS bug that was giving halberds and lances only half their weapon enchant bonus has been fixed, thanks to GM Konacon.

Second, with a little bit of a push in the right direction I believe I finally have a correct two-hand grip polearm parry DS formula. As it turns out the stance mods are only 90% of the standard two-handed weapon modifiers. However, two-hand gripped polearm users receive a natural polearm DS bonus that ranges from +15 in OFF stance to +30 in DEF stance which more than offsets the lower stance mods, especially for lower level characters.

This order of operations has been the most accurate.

((Weapon Ranks + STR/4 + DEX/4) * stance mod)) + (weapon enchant bonus * stance mod) + polearm bonus + stance/2 bonus

The stance modifier formula is: ((20% + stance/2) * 1.35) where stance is 0/20/40/60/80/100 from OFF to DEF respectively.

Polearm Stance Modifier Table


Stance|OFF|ADV|FOR|NEU|GUA|DEF
Modifier|.27|.41|.54|.68|.81|.94

Polearm DS Bonus Table


Stance|0FF|ADV|FOR|NEU|GUA|DEF
DS bonus|15|18|21|24|27|30

Stance/2 DS Bonus Table


Stance|0FF|ADV|FOR|NEU|GUA|DEF
DS bonus|0|10|20|30|40|50

The formula for the polearm bonus is 30 * (50% + stance/2).

This additional bonus only applies with two-hand gripped polearms. Polearms gripped with one hand use the standard one-hand parry DS formula.

Example:

Weapon ranks 80, STR bonus 24, DEX bonus 28, weapon enchant bonus 25

Offensive Parry DS:

((80 + 24/4 + 28/4) * .27) + (25 * .27) + 15 (stance OFF polearm bonus) + 0 (no stance/2 bonus in offensive stance)

(93 * .27) + (25 * .27) + 15 + 0 = 46 DS

Defensive Parry DS:

((80 + 24/4 + 28/4) * .94) + (25 * .94) + 30 (stance DEF polearm bonus) + 50 (stance/2 bonus)

(93 * .94) + (25 * .94) + 30 +50 = 190 DS

Mark

[Drew]

Second, with a little bit of a push in the right direction I believe I finally have a correct two-hand grip polearm parry DS formula. As it turns out the stance mods are only 90% of the standard two-handed weapon modifiers. However, two-hand gripped polearm users receive a natural polearm DS bonus that ranges from +15 in OFF stance to +30 in DEF stance which more than offsets the lower stance mods, especially for lower level characters.


A long time ago I was told be a GM that polearms get a +20 DS bonus to simulate distance. Interesting to know that he was halfway there.

[Luftstreitkräfte]

I appreciate the work you've done here Riltus.