The Tsoran Mob

[Cheslica]

To pretty much sum up the recent events... It was late and I was listening to the amulet in Wehnimer's. All of a sudden someone mentions the GREAT TSORAN and his maps. I simply ask what was so great about him and I am instantly set on fire with angry thoughts and proof of his greatness.

I personally think it is stupid to idolize someone in game for a website they did out of game. Technically his maps are not in existance. They are on a website simply for the purpose of helping the PLAYERS get around. His maps are materialized in game. And of course, I get slammed by all this "RP-Pros" who know so much about greatness... Yet they do not have the common sense to seperate In Game information and out of game information.

Of course, Tsoran is a good man. He offered to help check out Endless Legends when we are building. But the point is, Plur, Mogonis, Taklo, Nopus, Manifest, and Corwynd are crazy.

I just don't understand sometimes. Why is it so difficult to keep Out of Game things... out of game!

[Cheslica]

And really... using an act verb to pull a Tsoran map out in game does not count!

He is a good guy. He has done a lot. But those who don't really know him and only worship him in game because of his maps are pretty pathetic.

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Cheslica
But those who don't really know him and only worship him in game because of his maps are pretty pathetic.


count me as a pathetic one

[Galleazzo]

Fuckin' A, there aren't even words.

Try THIS out. People make maps. They use the maps. There are maps in game. And Tsoran makes the best maps. He's done more for this game and its players than you will in your life.

Now I don't know the guy but he's nutted up and done the work and brought something to Gemstone. What did you ever do for the game?

:stfu:

[Drew]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Tsoran makes the best maps.



I dunno... I use Zepath's maps :smilegrin:

[Miss X]

I don't worship his character in game, my character has never even met him, however as a player I owe him a lot. I would be forever lost without his maps so yeah, he is pretty great IMHO. :)

[Bobmuhthol]

He totally helped me fix a coding problem in one of my calculators, but his character can fuck off. :thumbsup:

[Parkbandit]

I'll ask a question to answer your question:

What is so bad about Tsoran the character? I've never had an issue with him and he's always been willing to help anyone. From a character standpoint, he seems like an ok guy. Personally, I would be friends with him way before I was friends with a bastard like Falgrin.

:shrug:

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Probably one of the only reason I'm still here in GS4 was his character sheets, I had neither the time nor inclination to figure out how I should train and what not without them.

Oh, and his maps kick ass, he'd even converted them to new monster lvls before gs4 came out, very proactive for someone who gets nothing from SIMU (that I'm aware of).

His maps helped me explore a lot of areas that I had to go to for the first time. I also think he did a lot for the game. No reason not to show appreciation.

- Arkans

[Mistomeer]

Tsoran's done alot. He also wants to work for Simu, so he does have other motives. I Alpha Tested GSIV with him, and he talked about how cool it would be to work there (I think his words were along the lines of, How cool would it be to work for a company that has a pool table at the office?), and some other things that I won't go into, cause I don't hate the guy. Anyone who acts like his maps and character sheets are the best things ever made, can blow me. After talking to him, it's fairly obvious he has his own motives for doing it, in addition to doing it for others. Also, his posts on the Official Boards greatly bother me as I know for a fact he has many people like Melissa on his buddy list, so he's never going to be very critical of the work of his friends.

Don't get me wrong, I like the guy. But I've also seen character sheets that were much, much better. (Those sheets also got sent to Tsoran to aid him or whatever) All I'm saying is that I think he's had more help than he lets on in doing the things he does and that he has other motives, however subtle, for doing that stuff.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

You make it sound like its a bad thing to do something you are passionate about. You sound like the little kid that got second prize in the science fair crying about the first place kid.

WTF have YOU done to merit judging him so harshly?

[CrystalTears]

So because he was given help for designing and posting the spreadsheets and maps he doesn't deserve any credit?

Regardless of what kind of person he may be, or his character, I think he deserves mass amount of kudos for supporting and updating those maps and spreadsheets all these years. Despite his reasons for doing it, even if they were for purely selfish reasons, the fact that they've helped people play the game speaks volumns.

[Parkbandit]

'I DON'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE HE LIKES SIMUTRONICS, AND THEREFORE IT'S NOT COOL TO LIKE HIM. HE'S A CORPORATE BASTARD. SURE HIS MAPS ARE NICE. SURE I GO TO HIS WEBSITE AND DOWNLOAD HIS SPREADSHEET. SURE I'VE BEEN DOING SO FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS. I'VE NEVER INTERACTED WITH HIS CHARCTER BEFORE, BUT ANYONE THAT SPENDS THAT MUCH TIME MAKING ALL THOSE HELPFUL MAPS CAN'T BE GOOD. I HATE TSORAN!"

:sniffle:

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

That sounds like you and AOL's AIM....

Someone get PB some burn cream!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
That sounds like you and AOL's AIM....

Someone get PB some burn cream!

I actually have no real issue with AOL... or Time Warner. I DO have a problem with fucking free little programs taking over my entire computer to do their evil with though.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

LOL, I'm kidding, and so do I (hate anything that installs something besides the product you want). I think we should charge for AIM and all the fucking hangers on like Trillian/Gaim and what not will stop milking off our success. 2 bucks a month and no adds. Screw the free shit.

But then, I'm also not in marketing for a reason... point is to make a buck, and advertising does that.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
LOL, I'm kidding, and so do I (hate anything that installs something besides the product you want). I think we should charge for AIM and all the fucking hangers on like Trillian/Gaim and what not will stop milking off our success. 2 bucks a month and no adds. Screw the free shit.

But then, I'm also not in marketing for a reason... point is to make a buck, and advertising does that.

Good thing you are not in marketing. If AIM did start charging a monthly fee.. it wouldn't make services like Trillian and Gaim stop milking off AIM's success.. it would help them overcome AIM's dominance and over take it as the preferred choice.

UR DUM!

[Chadj]

Tsoran has done tons for the game. I personally like him, between his maps and my interactions with him, he seems like a damn smart guy, and rather helpful too. But my characters have never gotten a 'Tsorans Map' IG, nor even heard of Tsoran. So if someone starts talking about the 'Great Tsoran', Chadj would most likely ask A) Who the hell is Tsoran? and B) Why is he so great?

As I said, Tsoran has done TONS for the game, and I am thankful for that. However, the fact that Tsoran alpha tested GSIV, coded this, mapped that, or made character sheets, doesn't mean shit to any of my characters. Therefore, my characters don't give a flying fuck about this "Tsoran", and if people start talkin about him and getting annoying, none of my chars would stand back just because he made some maps.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

We can block all the ones using our software. Trillian wouldn't work without being able to ride on our servers.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
We can block all the ones using our software. Trillian wouldn't work without being able to ride on our servers.

Oh.

I M DUM!

[DeV]

Anyone who worships any other person is pretty sad. However Tsoran has my respect for helping out tons of players with his maps, regardless of his motivation. Thats personal, and who cares.

[Siara]

I really shouldn't comment in a thread about "Tsoran", since I do know him and I really should strive to be a nice person.. ok, well, I'll put that on my To-DO list.

The person that made the comment of Mike (Tsoran) not giving others the credit for what he's doing/done is absolutely correct and one of my main dislikes about the guy.

Those maps of his didn't 'rock' until Antalya sent him hers years ago.(Yeah, the map site Tsoran sent everyone to when he "quit playing GS") Direct copies? You bet. Ant ever get the credit for that? Gotta be kidding. Most everything on his site has been taken from someone else - including those spreadsheets. He tweaks and fiddles and then gets full credit.

I, too, have a problem with a character getting recognition for out-of-game contributions. "Tsoran" in-game is Cleric with no real RP behind him. Mike out-of-game, however, has a rather nice web site with helpful game tips. No different than many many other players' sites.

Some Willow Hall members will probably remember the night "Tsoran" stood them up. I had arranged for Tsoran - the supposed mapper - to give an in-character talk to Willow Hall members (primarily Rangers, remember) Possibly a great and pretty fun RP event you would think, with a Giantkin Cleric taking about his "map making abilities".

He was a no show. With no notice to anyone, over 50 people waiting for him, he decided to attend a Wizards forum with his character "Erindril". Through IMs, I was the one that had to tell a waiting Willow Hall member he wasn't even going to show up.

Siara's got a past with Tsoran, she basically helped him get started. So character to character, Siara might have a nod for a greeting to him if she sees him. (Even that I don't do, really) On a player level, I'm not one that can be counted as a fan of the guy.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Directly from his website...

"I'd like to take this opportunity to thank everyone who has helped me with the maps by pointing out something I had missed, or gotten wrong, or by providing the ages of critters that are too young for me verify. I'd also like to thank everyone else who has ever published a map of a part of Elanthia. You've all contributed greatly to improving the accuracy of the maps here. Thanks! "

Directly from his excel sheet...

"Note: This is a modified version of Elfarran's spreadsheet trainer. I've modified and improved it over the years, but credit belongs to Elfarran for the original design. --Tsoran"

[Kitsun]

Gemstone would probably be a different place without Tsoran's maps. Many times it isn't getting the work done originally, but the distribution that is the key to success or fame.

As for the IC/OOC thing... do your characters sit in limbo and darkness when they're logged out? Why can't they go brood over some maps in a nearby inn while the player is sleeping? Is it really more IC for your characters to magically know the way from A to B?

If Tsoran guy is a such a devoted asset to the lands to do his cartography skills, why not have the guy emphasize his greatness to all his Tsoran minion's by taking humble advantage of the upcoming player-owned shop system and utilize a real oppurtunity to distribute his map "wares" as a plausible way for his cronies to not only be allowed to defend his "flawless" map-making sacrifices and at the same time keep it in game?

Otherwise, it is utter farkakte to take something completely OOG and somehow use that as a plause to put the flame-on against naysayers to his deeds that are, and will remain, completely irrelevant to IG scenario.

[TheEschaton]

I think Tsoran's maps are very much IC, and merely expressed OOC elsewhere.

Just because it's in an OOC form somewhere doesn't mean it can't be IC. I have my character histories on my website, explaining how such and such was raised, and what he believes, etc, etc, etc.....doesn't mean it didn't fucking happen in-game.

But I might just be defending Tsoran because my cleric defends the cleric profession, and is pretty adept himself at finding his way around, much more so than any other ranger he knows.

-TheE-

[Blazing247]

Tsoran's maps are good. To the person claiming to still use Zepath's maps, shut up dumbass. No you don't. His maps are so outdated that they are probably worse than using nothing.

Obviously Tsoran has other motivations. If he wants to be a GM, good for him. The only part that bothers me is when he derails a debate on the Simu boards with his pro Simu rhetoric, because people listen to him instead of thinking for themselves.

[Edaarin]

Zepath's Den. Probably why I don't lead many groups anymore, or why I suck at directions in new places. Although I did use the spreadsheet to mess around with training plans for my rogue.

I've got no problem with the player or any of his characters. I might have seen his cleric maybe 5 times total since I started playing, though I saw his rogue pretty frequently in the guild last year.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Kitsun
Gemstone would probably be a different place without Tsoran's maps. Many times it isn't getting the work done originally, but the distribution that is the key to success or fame.

As for the IC/OOC thing... do your characters sit in limbo and darkness when they're logged out? Why can't they go brood over some maps in a nearby inn while the player is sleeping? Is it really more IC for your characters to magically know the way from A to B?

Whether my characters brood over a map or not, none of my characters have heard of Tsoran's Maps.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
I think Tsoran's maps are very much IC, and merely expressed OOC elsewhere.

Just because it's in an OOC form somewhere doesn't mean it can't be IC. I have my character histories on my website, explaining how such and such was raised, and what he believes, etc, etc, etc.....doesn't mean it didn't fucking happen in-game.

But I might just be defending Tsoran because my cleric defends the cleric profession, and is pretty adept himself at finding his way around, much more so than any other ranger he knows.

-TheE-

That is your choice of RP, and you control that completely. However, Tsoran's Maps do not exist in Elanthia. If it were RPed that they do, it would be different. But the fact remains that, while my characters have had maps, they have never heard of Tsoran's Map Shoppe, simply because it doesn not exist IG.

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by Blazing247
Tsoran's maps are good. To the person claiming to still use Zepath's maps, shut up dumbass. No you don't. His maps are so outdated that they are probably worse than using nothing.

Obviously Tsoran has other motivations. If he wants to be a GM, good for him. The only part that bothers me is when he derails a debate on the Simu boards with his pro Simu rhetoric, because people listen to him instead of thinking for themselves.

I still use Zepath's maps...for Darkstone and the Broken Lands.

Tsoran has stated many times he does not want to be a GM, because of his conflicting interests as a player. He couldn't openly question or criticize Simu or the Square team if he were.

He's openly campaigned for the firing of the entire Square Team...hardly always pro-Simu.

[Chadj]

I must be out of the loop...

What the fuck is a Square Team?

[SnatchWrangler]

Originally posted by Chadj
I must be out of the loop...

What the fuck is a Square Team?

There's no Warrior Guru or Rogue Guru anymore...they combined them to form the Square Team (Elnath, Stealth, Coase, Remnick and others).

Or as Tsoran calls them, the Warrior team. Elnath and Remnick got their customer service skills from Brauden.

[Killer Kitten]

At Simucon in 2001 I went to lunch with a group of people, one of whom was Tsorans player.

I remember him as a very nice person who did a lot more listening to other people than talking about himself. When people approached him as if he was a celebrity he deflected their praise with questions about their own characters and ingame experiences that were asked with what seemed a genuine interest.

He hardly seemed like a power-mad egomaniac to either me or my husband. There were certainly a lot of people there that year who have done a lot less for the other players of Gemstone yet seemed to revel in their own peculiar brand of 'celebrity' and trot their own egos around a lot more. I found Tsorans player to be modest, engaging and quite the gentleman.

Kimm/Tilone

I still haven't poofed yet. Email me if you want any of my crap, um I mean items.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Chadj

That is your choice of RP, and you control that completely. However, Tsoran's Maps do not exist in Elanthia. If it were RPed that they do, it would be different. But the fact remains that, while my characters have had maps, they have never heard of Tsoran's Map Shoppe, simply because it doesn not exist IG.

Because there is no building with a sign on the door that says "Tsoran's Map Shoppe" does not mean it does not exist. I believe Tsoran does roleplay being a cartographer and has some alterations as such. I'm willing to bet he has a map or two on him.. so Tsoran's Maps do exist. :)

[CrystalTears]

It's apparently the age old argument "I haven't seen it in the game so it must not exist." Just because YOU haven't seen the item in the lands doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Same with the argument with horses. The game has horses and stables and mentions them. Just because we can't ride one doesn't mean they don't exist at all.

I haven't ever called them flat out "Tsoran's maps" in the game, but my halfling would take out her map and look at it and that's what she would see. :bleh:

[Edited on 6/7/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

<3 Halflings

Same with the argument with horses. The game has horses and stables and mentions them. Just because we can't ride one doesn't mean they don't exist at all.
I have much respect for the opinionated board wench, however, if you forked over the cash during the last gate festival, you'd know that riding horsies is quite possible and rather fun when your opposite jouster gets the pointy end of your lance.

Anyway, for many borderline scenarios regarding what can be conceived and then having enough IG evidence to support your actions, mister Tsoran has no positive role-playing vice on the issue. Basically, until I see morons ACTing, (XXXX pulls out the ancient Tsoran tome of higher cartography and begins to browse tediously through the pages, etc, etc.) it's pretty damn OOG, not to mention OOG/retarded to defend him in this matter IG since those who do have absolutely no leverage in the aforemention situation.

[CrystalTears]

I know about the jousting and events, I meant in general. :P

[Amaron]

Tsoran's player and I became friends when our Rogues worked the guild together.

IG his characters are very quiet and helpfull...He always had time to do reps with me.

OOG he helped me understand the spread sheets and gs4 stuff. I love his maps and he is helpful whenever I ask him questions.

I do not refer to his maps IG persay but I do have an IG map I sometimes take out when folks ask me about a place and I get his maps out to look.

who cares why he does what he does... He does a good job.
J

[Skirmisher]

I don't know him in game at all, but the information on his website helped make my playing experience far superior to what it would have been without it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell

Anyway, for many borderline scenarios regarding what can be conceived and then having enough IG evidence to support your actions, mister Tsoran has no positive role-playing vice on the issue. Basically, until I see morons ACTing, (XXXX pulls out the ancient Tsoran tome of higher cartography and begins to browse tediously through the pages, etc, etc.) it's pretty damn OOG, not to mention OOG/retarded to defend him in this matter IG since those who do have absolutely no leverage in the aforemention situation.

I find it funny that you would criticize anyone for OOC behavior.

Pot-Kettle...

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Because there is no building with a sign on the door that says "Tsoran's Map Shoppe" does not mean it does not exist. I believe Tsoran does roleplay being a cartographer and has some alterations as such. I'm willing to bet he has a map or two on him.. so Tsoran's Maps do exist. :)

Quite true as far as the fact that a shop does not need to exist. This is news to me about him RPing a cartographer.. I never knew that. Well then, in light of the new information, yes, they exist IG I guess. But... None of my chars have heard of him, so he can't be THAT great :P

[CrystalTears]

I've never heard of you either. :P

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
'I DON'T LIKE HIM BECAUSE HE LIKES SIMUTRONICS, AND THEREFORE IT'S NOT COOL TO LIKE HIM. HE'S A CORPORATE BASTARD. SURE HIS MAPS ARE NICE. SURE I GO TO HIS WEBSITE AND DOWNLOAD HIS SPREADSHEET. SURE I'VE BEEN DOING SO FOR THE PAST 5 YEARS. I'VE NEVER INTERACTED WITH HIS CHARCTER BEFORE, BUT ANYONE THAT SPENDS THAT MUCH TIME MAKING ALL THOSE HELPFUL MAPS CAN'T BE GOOD. I HATE TSORAN!" :sniffle: OMG, I'm rolling here.

:D

[Galleazzo]

I never heard of him either.

[Cheslica]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Fuckin' A, there aren't even words.

Try THIS out. People make maps. They use the maps. There are maps in game. And Tsoran makes the best maps. He's done more for this game and its players than you will in your life.

Now I don't know the guy but he's nutted up and done the work and brought something to Gemstone. What did you ever do for the game?

:stfu:


I'm not exactly planning to do anything for gemstone. I understand that point, but the thing is, if the map isn't in game then it isn't real in game. There are maps in game, they aren't useful, but they aren't by Tsoran. I do agree, he has done a lot for the players, but not the character's themselves.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Fuckin' A, there aren't even words.

Try THIS out. People make maps. They use the maps. There are maps in game. And Tsoran makes the best maps. He's done more for this game and its players than you will in your life.

Now I don't know the guy but he's nutted up and done the work and brought something to Gemstone. What did you ever do for the game?

:stfu:

You're an idiot if you actually believe that. This is the kind of shit that makes me laugh. Tsoran didn't just go make all this shit ON HIS OWN for the good of the game. He's had alot of help, and he gets quite a bit out of it.

I have no problem with Tsoran IG. On the boards, I think he's a dumbass. I've seen some crappy stuff released, that most players agree sucks, and Tsoran and the GM's are the only ones talking about how great it is. The only time I remember him bitching was about some planned changes to guild skills. Tsoran told them that if the changes went through as planned, he'd quit. They promptly scrapped the changes as they were planned.

I just think it's funny when dumbfucks get their panties in a wad because someone talks bad about the guy. It's not as if you even know him. He could be a fucking child porn loving asshole and you sit here and defend him. If you like him, cool, if not, who cares?

[CrystalTears]

Do you know him enough to dislike him that much?

[Cheslica]

This forum isn't about his character sheets, it isn't about his maps, it's about the use of his material in game when it is not existant. How can XXXX say, Tsoran is a wonderful person when they haven't met him.

Yes, he HAS BEEN HELPFUL TO PLAYERS!

But he hasn't done anything of great merit inside gemstone as far as I am concerned. He is a good guy, sure. But the point is, I am sick of people taking out of game information into gemstone and using that as a basis to say: A) this guy is great B) They know him.

How would you feel if you saw someone say:

(XXX pulls out one of Tsoran's character sheet and read it)

it is the same thing as (XXX pulls out one of Tsoran's maps and checks where they are going). It is completely out of game

It also is simular to: (XXX pulls out a note for 10,000,000 silver and exchanges it for your glaes waraxe)
Would you accept an act instead of a real note? He may have an altered map, but that doesn't mean that you do. It also doesn't mean you've ever used it in game. His items do not exsist.

[TheEschaton]

His character sheets refer to OOC things....stats, skills, growth, CS, DS, AS, etc.


His maps refer to real places. Therefore, it is not farfetched to assume that, while the maps exist in an OOC medium, that he "produces" maps IG as a cartographer.

-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Do you know him enough to dislike him that much?

Exactly... because he does things like pay for a website for us to use.. makes maps... makes spreadsheets.. he's made himself a target for the 'scorned' or 'left behind' folks to target. They don't know him for crap.

Dislike his views. Dislike his posts. Hate his character (for in game reason). Hate his maps because you are too stupid to read them. But don't hate him because he has put forth an effort to help other players. Criminy.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Um...

Ever heard of Rone Wehnimer? I've never met him but I know him. I've never met George Bush, but I know him. I could go on but I think you get my point right? I don't have to meet you, to know you.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Cheslica


How would you feel if you saw someone say:

(XXX pulls out one of Tsoran's character sheet and read it)

it is the same thing as (XXX pulls out one of Tsoran's maps and checks where they are going). It is completely out of game

It also is simular to: (XXX pulls out a note for 10,000,000 silver and exchanges it for your glaes waraxe)

Actually.. it's not the same thing. A spreadsheet is something that refers to a computer program (typically Excel). Obviously something that would be not in genre with the time period the game tries to portray. A map is a map though.. and they had maps back then. Tsoran, being the only cartographer in the game that I know of.. could have easily made the map. I'm not sure if my character could decern if that map was indeed a Tsoran map or not.. but to say it's the same as pulling out a Tsoran spreadsheet is completely untrue.

Would I consider it good roleplaying? Hardly.. but I've seen MUCH worse.

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by Parkbandit]

[Kitsun]

I'm halfway tempted to try to alter up a Tsoran book of maps at the next Dhu.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Um...

Ever heard of Rone Wehnimer? I've never met him but I know him. I've never met George Bush, but I know him. I could go on but I think you get my point right? I don't have to meet you, to know you.

Thats because you have heard about them, whether it's reading or hearing etc.

But what's your point? So someone's char has never heard of Tsoran.

[TheEschaton]

This is all pointless, stupid shit. Before the Ta'Illistim library opened, all the history docs were on the website.


Did they not "exist" in-game, until Ta'Illistim opened up? Did we have no history or theology in Elanthia?

It's stupid to say that because it's primarily an out-of-game medium, that it doesn't exist in-game. In the case of the historical documents....they didn't have books in game until the Ta'I library. And until very recently, they didn't have maps in game....and the maps they DO have are A) for SF, and B) not allowed to be made by players.

-TheE-

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Do you know him enough to dislike him that much?

I don't dislike him. I don't like how he posts on the boards because I don't think he's ever really going to talk negatively about a system that his buddy has spent 300 hours designing, or something along those lines.

I don't claim to be best friends with the guy, but I've talked with him on AIM, not recently, but quite a bit in the past. That's alot more than many people who don't know him at all, yet seem to know him well enough to talk about how no one should say anything bad about him.


My opinion of the guy stems from knowledge that most don't have, most of which I haven't shared with anyone. I know some of the things he's said to me in the past which has given me insight as to his motivations. I know people that have made really incredible spreadsheets and done nothing with them except use them personally and mail them to him. I think he deserves credit for putting the stuff out there, but he also uses his website to fill enchantment slots and sell merchandise. He gets plenty of perks in return, he doesn't need a mass of people fighting his battles that have never spoken to him or his characters.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Do you know him enough to dislike him that much?

Exactly... because he does things like pay for a website for us to use.. makes maps... makes spreadsheets.. he's made himself a target for the 'scorned' or 'left behind' folks to target. They don't know him for crap.

Dislike his views. Dislike his posts. Hate his character (for in game reason). Hate his maps because you are too stupid to read them. But don't hate him because he has put forth an effort to help other players. Criminy.

I find it funny that you know me well enough to know who I do or don't know.
Yet, the point of your post is not to judge people you don't know.

I never said I didn't like him. I think my words in my original post were, "I like the guy." With me, I form my own opinions and don't jump in the middle of someone else's fights just cause they posted some maps. My point was never that Tsoran shouldn't get any credit, or that the perks Tsoran gets are undeserved, I'm just more annoyed by people like Galleazzo who admittedly have never had any interaction with him, but are 100% certain that any criticism towards him is undeserved.

[TheRoseLady]

Originally posted by Blazing247
Obviously Tsoran has other motivations. If he wants to be a GM, good for him. The only part that bothers me is when he derails a debate on the Simu boards with his pro Simu rhetoric, because people listen to him instead of thinking for themselves.

You know Blazing, this is true some of the time...but I've seen him speak pretty much against something, or at least, come out and say - stuff that is not flattering to the GMs and staff. I'm not suggesting that he flames, (although he did throw one of the biggest temper tantrums I've ever seen on the rogue boards over guild skills and Cman - and that they require stamina.) He ended up pulling his posts, but his tirade would give anyone in a hiring position - serious pause. (Anyone else remember reading those posts before he deleted them?)

He recently told them on the premium boards that the LTB were rather underwhelming, so he does go both ways.

-TRL

[Edaarin]

Heh. I remember the diatribe he unleashed, and I could sympathize. Spend hundreds of hours doing something, and you grow an attachment to it. Having it neutered and completely changed will have that kind of effect on you.

EDIT: When they were saying they were going to take the skills OUT of the Guild and let us reallocate our current ranks...THAT was a nasty situation.

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by Edaarin]

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Heh. I remember the diatribe he unleashed, and I could sympathize. Spend hundreds of hours doing something, and you grow an attachment to it. Having it neutered and completely changed will have that kind of effect on you.

EDIT: When they were saying they were going to take the skills OUT of the Guild and let us reallocate our current ranks...THAT was a nasty situation.

[Edited on 6-7-2004 by Edaarin]

That's the only time I've seen him actually post negatively. And he threatened to quit over it. On the cleric boards, I don't think I've ever seen Tsoran post negatively about things Uliq does. And there's alot of clerics out there that are unhappy with Uliq. 319, for as cool as the messaging is, is a complete waste. It has a timer that's based on how effective it is. So if you can cast it well, you can't cast it as often as someone who doesn't do well casting it. Compare that to other spells such as Immolation, Cone, DC, Implosion, etc. 325 is another load of crap. And when you think that 325 was supposed to be sanctify and they replace it with Holy Chamberpot, you can see why many clerics don't like it. Yet, Tsoran always seems to be in Uliq's corner. That's where I disagree with him the most. And it's about the only part of the Official boards I read anymore.

[Atlanteax]

Tsoran has made a significant contribution to Gemstone with his Maps.

He also never solicated recognition/compensation from Simu/GMs for the efforts. I don't think he has ever been given compensation, but I know he's been recognized, as sometimes GMs will joke that they'll change a hunting area so that Tsoran would have to change his map, or make a path random, so he couldn't map it.

Also, one has to feel for Tsoran... as he does get tons of whispers/etc from people bugging him about his map, or whatnot (related to his maps) ... which likely could be considered the equivalency of a GM's PC being pestered by others who know that the PC is played by a GM.

Nevermind that Tsoran traditionally has been rather civil in the Lands, even if he's being harrassed to some extent.

Btw, he once told me (at a Con) that he drew the Maps for himself, and then figured why not put it up to share with everyone else. He only got so popular because other players found his maps to be well done and reliable.

Tsoran = :thumbsup:

[Galleazzo]

So let me get this straight, Tsoran is a suck up tool because he agrees with Uliq about some things?

Damn, stop the presses.

[SpunGirl]

So um, Cheslica, do you refrain from using Tsoran's maps when moving your character around the lands? Because Cheslica wouldn't know which way to go unless you the player imparted that knowledge to her... or does she just wander around aimlessly until the both of you figure it out?

I don't agree with everything the guy has to say on the main boards either, but nitpicking about a few thoughts about how cool his maps are is hardly worth the time it took to type out the original post. There are a dozen more sucky things going on in the game every second. If hearing a thought about Tsoran is the worst thing that happens all day, just smile and be thankful. After all, Vif is still running around.

-K

[Galleazzo]

Good point

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Mistomeer

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by CrystalTears
Do you know him enough to dislike him that much?

Exactly... because he does things like pay for a website for us to use.. makes maps... makes spreadsheets.. he's made himself a target for the 'scorned' or 'left behind' folks to target. They don't know him for crap.

Dislike his views. Dislike his posts. Hate his character (for in game reason). Hate his maps because you are too stupid to read them. But don't hate him because he has put forth an effort to help other players. Criminy.

I find it funny that you know me well enough to know who I do or don't know.
Yet, the point of your post is not to judge people you don't know.

I never said I didn't like him. I think my words in my original post were, "I like the guy." With me, I form my own opinions and don't jump in the middle of someone else's fights just cause they posted some maps. My point was never that Tsoran shouldn't get any credit, or that the perks Tsoran gets are undeserved, I'm just more annoyed by people like Galleazzo who admittedly have never had any interaction with him, but are 100% certain that any criticism towards him is undeserved.

I find it funny that your guilty conscious thought I was directing the comment completely in your direction.

I find it funny that you are concerned about the "credit" that Tsoran gets for making all the maps.

I find it funny that you claim you like the guy.. yet post your bullshit argument to try to get people to dislike Tsoran.

I find you funny. Not funny "haha", but funny, strange.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
I find it funny that your guilty conscious thought I was directing the comment completely in your direction.

I find it funny that you are concerned about the "credit" that Tsoran gets for making all the maps.

I find it funny that you claim you like the guy.. yet post your bullshit argument to try to get people to dislike Tsoran.

I find you funny. Not funny "haha", but funny, strange.

Guilty conscious? The post you were quoting was one directed to me, or at least it would seem as CrystalTears posted that right after mine.

I'm not concerned about the "credit" he gets. He does some work, he gets some perks. One of his perks doesn't include me following him off a cliff, like so many of you seem willing to do.

Bullshit arguments? I'm just being honest. Sorry if the truth hurts. I'm just surprised so many people are willing to fight his battles just because Tsoran posted some maps and spreadsheets. If he had done all that stuff, all by himself, from scratch, I might feel differently. Kulbaen did just as much for GS3. There's tons of websites out there that have alot of helpful information. I'm not willing to take a bullet for them just because they put up a helpful website.

I'm not trying to get anyone to dislike Tsoran. If I wanted to be mean to the guy, I could post some things that he's told me that would probably embarass him. I just think it's sad that so many of you, without ever having spoken to him, can be perfectly sure that anyone who says anything critical of him is completely wrong.

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
So let me get this straight, Tsoran is a suck up tool because he agrees with Uliq about some things?

Damn, stop the presses.

I never said he was a suckup tool.
I said I disagree with his posts on the Official Boards and gave examples.

[CrystalTears]

I'm trying to find where anyone said they're worshipping and willing to die for him. I think the exaggeration has gone off the deep end there.

Some are just defending the mindset that since he has contributed his time to post and maintain Gemstone maps that they are greatly appreciated. Personally I wouldn't have played long if all I had left were Zepath's maps which would have eventually been outdated (yes I used those too).

His name stands out more because maps are one of the first things that people look for when they play... how to get around. Without that, people would be lost and give up. It made it easier to play because you could focus on other things and not get lost. For me and others like me, anyway.

[Mistomeer]

I'm mostly referring to people like those Cheslica was talking about, and people like Galleazzo, who have never met him nor had any interaction with him, but post things like STFU if someone says something even slightly negative. Cheslica's original post wasn't even critical, yet here comes a mass of ready to defend someone who, by their own admission, have never interacted with.

[OoK]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
This is all pointless, stupid shit. Before the Ta'Illistim library opened, all the history docs were on the website. Did they not "exist" in-game, until Ta'Illistim opened up? Did we have no history or theology in Elanthia?
-TheE-

I think we have a winner here...

-OoK

[CrystalTears]

So people can't be thankful to him for his mapping services? I've never met him either, neither in game nor in person, and his posts are not prime since sometimes he gets on binges of quitting when something gets changed. With all that, it STILL doesn't make me devalue his services.

I don't know Ronald McDonald personally but I love his burgers and think he's the bomb. :D

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So people can't be thankful to him for his mapping services? I've never met him either, neither in game nor in person, and his posts are not prime since sometimes he gets on binges of quitting when something gets changed. With all that, it STILL doesn't make me devalue his services.

I don't know Ronald McDonald personally but I love his burgers and think he's the bomb. :D

I don't think it devalues the service. I think they're completely different. If he didn't play, and he didn't post, and all he had was his service, then I could see being defensive about it. But the service is just one aspect. I think you could hate his characters IG, I'm not sure why you would, and still appreciate his maps. I think of them being seperate, and don't understand allegiance to him personally, or his characters, because of the website.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So people can't be thankful to him for his mapping services? I've never met him either, neither in game nor in person, and his posts are not prime since sometimes he gets on binges of quitting when something gets changed. With all that, it STILL doesn't make me devalue his services.

I don't know Ronald McDonald personally but I love his burgers and think he's the bomb. :D

Sure the burgers are good and tasty.. but come on.. how could you LIKE a person like him? Grimace is the one that actually thought of making the burgers to begin with.. but HE DOESN'T GET ANY OF THE GOD DAMN CREDIT!

Ronald is nothing more than an attention whore. I like the guy, don't get me wrong.. but I could tell you some stories about him that would make you not like him. You don't even KNOW Ronald like I do... yet you go and buy his fucking hamburgers all the time.

God, you are so STUPID!

And don't even get me started on Birdie or the Fry Guys.

[CrystalTears]

:lol2:

Anyway, from my understanding Tsoran is played as map maker, so I see no problem praising the character for his maps. And they ARE maps of Elanthia for heaven's sakes. If they were maps for Everquest and was being mentioned in GS then I can understand the uproar. But a tool that's used for playing? I don't understand the animosity, I really don't.

[Edited on 6/8/2004 by CrystalTears]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
:lol2:

Anyway, from my understanding Tsoran is played as map maker, so I see no problem praising the character for his maps. And they ARE maps of Elanthia for heaven's sakes. If they were maps for Everquest and was being mentioned in GS then I can understand the uproar. But a tool that's used for playing? I don't understand the animosity, I really don't.

[Edited on 6/8/2004 by CrystalTears]

What are you.. deaf?

HE'S GETTING CREDIT DAMMIT

And it's not fair. :sniffle:

[CrystalTears]

<giggles> Okay I surrender. PB is beating me up today. I'll let it go.

[Parkbandit]

Falgrin > CrystalTears

:smug:

[CrystalTears]

So not changing your title to that. No frickin' way. :P

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
So not changing your title to that. No frickin' way. :P

Don't make me go above your head woman!!

[CrystalTears]

:eatme: :moon2: :fu:

[SpunGirl]

Dying with laugher.

What about that shithead the Arby's mitt getting all that fuckin' credit for those sandwhiches??? He only has TWO FINGERS.

-K

[Cheslica]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
This is all pointless, stupid shit. Before the Ta'Illistim library opened, all the history docs were on the website.


Did they not "exist" in-game, until Ta'Illistim opened up? Did we have no history or theology in Elanthia?

It's stupid to say that because it's primarily an out-of-game medium, that it doesn't exist in-game. In the case of the historical documents....they didn't have books in game until the Ta'I library. And until very recently, they didn't have maps in game....and the maps they DO have are A) for SF, and B) not allowed to be made by players.

-TheE-

History is not an item. A map is. Everything must have a history for it is the root of our creation. Of course, are you saying that those histories are correct. Unless they are on the gemstone official webpage, it does not mean they are officially true. If you ask a GameMaster or refer to a history made up by a player, it is irrelvent in game. I mean, I could say I am the child of a Basilican Magistrate. I could put that on a web site. It doesn't mean people will agree. It doesn't mean the gamemasters will recognize me as a daughter of a basilican magistrate.

You cannot compare history to maps. Maps are tangable. Yes, he did map out areas which are in existance. But still, they are player resources, not character resources. And just because one person alters a map into a "tsoran's map" does not mean every single person in Elanthia has seen it.

Honestly. Why is it so difficult to accept that his maps are not in existance for the MAJORITY of the characters in gemstone?

This isn't an attack on Tsoran, I'm not discrediting him, I am simply stating a fact.

[Cheslica]

Originally posted by CrystalTears
:lol2:

Anyway, from my understanding Tsoran is played as map maker, so I see no problem praising the character for his maps. And they ARE maps of Elanthia for heaven's sakes. If they were maps for Everquest and was being mentioned in GS then I can understand the uproar. But a tool that's used for playing? I don't understand the animosity, I really don't.

[Edited on 6/8/2004 by CrystalTears]


It's not an issue of whether or not Tsoran role plays a map maker. I don't care if he role-played a tea cup. It's a question of whether or not the product is in existance. To my understanding, every map in production is signed my the maker or the company. I haven't seen any with Tsoran's name on them.

I collect old maps, I have some maps that were made before your grandparents are born. Each one of those has a name. Just because there is: "a chared map" in gemstone, it does not mean that it's made by Tsoran.

I believe that saying "Tsoran's maps have saved my life" in gemstone is completely out of character. Unless they have had actual contact with a map made by Tsoran.

But really, this isn't an issue to get fussy about. It's just an observation.

[SpunGirl]

Putting an "observation" like this in "nuisances and annoyances" hardly makes it a simple observation. If it's not worth getting fussy over, why make the original post at ALL?

Also, you didn't answer my question about your usage of the maps.

-K

[Cheslica]

I don't use maps. I simply explore the area and memorize the way. Only time I looked at a map was in Ta'Illistim but I didn't bother with it because I didn't want to keep switching my screens.

[TheEschaton]

History is not an item. A map is. Everything must have a history for it is the root of our creation. Of course, are you saying that those histories are correct. Unless they are on the gemstone official webpage, it does not mean they are officially true. If you ask a GameMaster or refer to a history made up by a player, it is irrelvent in game. I mean, I could say I am the child of a Basilican Magistrate. I could put that on a web site. It doesn't mean people will agree. It doesn't mean the gamemasters will recognize me as a daughter of a basilican magistrate.


A) So then there were no history books before the actual coded books came out? It would have been completely OOC to say, "Oh, I read that bit about the Drake war in one of the historical tomes in the Academy at Ta'Illistim".....even though no such books (and, once upon a time, no such town) was actually represented in game?

B) Furthermore, this is FAR different from you claiming nobility on your website. Tsoran's maps are fact - they are undisputable, if you solely look at his maps, you can make a script, for example. You claiming nobility is simply an assertion....which CANNOT be backed up, in-game. Here's the difference: If I wrote a paper on the historical significance of the bog in Ta'Vaalor, that would be opinion, and thus, not official history. Even still, it could be used in-game. However, if I merely wrote a paper describing the bog (by copying room descriptions, for example) that would be fact, and undeniably so, and someone could say "Suchandsuch's guide on the Ta'Vaalor bog is very descriptive." It's neither OOC nor wrong to reference it if it cannot be interpreted as anything BUT fact.

-TheE-

[Galleazzo]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
I never said he was a suckup tool.
I said I disagree with his posts on the Official Boards and gave examples. Quit the bullshit. You didn't just say you disagreed with him. You said that EVERYONE disagreed with him but the GMs and made broad hints that he and the GMs were in each other's pockets.

What we're doing is defending someone who's done a lot for the game and who's getting shit on because some people can't handle that.


Honestly. Why is it so difficult to accept that his maps are not in existance for the MAJORITY of the characters in gemstone? This isn't an attack on Tsoran, I'm not discrediting him, I am simply stating a fact.Why is it so difficult for you to accept that we disagree with you? And what "facts" are you inventing now? How do you know what the majority of characters are thinking and doing? 765 people in GS right now, you have e-mails from 400 players there?

[Blazing247]

In one sentence, you tell him not to use the collective "we" unless he knows the feelings of the majority of the players...and in the next, you tell him "we" disagree with him.

:die:

[Mistomeer]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Quit the bullshit. You didn't just say you disagreed with him. You said that EVERYONE disagreed with him but the GMs and made broad hints that he and the GMs were in each other's pockets.

What we're doing is defending someone who's done a lot for the game and who's getting shit on because some people can't handle that.

That's not bullshit. Are you fucking illiterate?
Here's a quote from you, on the House Recruitment Folder, "Only reason Soraya isn't the most clueless living employee of Simu is that Uliq exists. "
But I'm the only one that disagrees with Uliq?

Dude, he is friends with alot of staff. You don't know him, and until you can prove otherwise, you can STFU. Seriously, I know for a FACT, from talking to Tsoran, that he talks to Melissa on a regular basis, or at least he did during Alpha Testing. When 319 was released, Uliq came to the official boards and said something like, "Well, after talking it over with Tsoran, I've decided to change this and this about the spell..." If you have information to the contrary, feel free to prove me wrong.

What you're defending, is shit you know nothing about from an attack that never came. You even contradict your own personal opinion about Uliq in order to take up for someone that you don't know. That's what I'm talking about. Tsoran's done alot for the game, he's made some very useful things, but in my book, that doesn't make him immune from criticism. If some GS maps is all it takes to have your unwavering support, I might just start mapping things and turning you loose on all my enemies. :D

[Jonty]

Originally posted by Cheslica
It's not an issue of whether or not Tsoran role plays a map maker. I don't care if he role-played a tea cup. It's a question of whether or not the product is in existance. To my understanding, every map in production is signed my the maker or the company. I haven't seen any with Tsoran's name on them.

It's a game.... PRETEND,

[Mistomeer]

Oh, also, this thread is pointless. I don't think anyone here is saying that Tsoran is the biggest jerk in the lands and should just leave. It's pointless, I'm done on it.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Mistomeer
Dude, he is friends with alot of staff. You don't know him, and until you can prove otherwise, you can STFU. Seriously, I know for a FACT, from talking to Tsoran, that he talks to Melissa on a regular basis, or at least he did during Alpha Testing. When 319 was released, Uliq came to the official boards and said something like, "Well, after talking it over with Tsoran, I've decided to change this and this about the spell..." If you have information to the contrary, feel free to prove me wrong.



Sounds to me that someone is green with envy... and as such, you get my personal sniffle smiley. :sniffle:

[Tsoran]

And people sometimes ask me why I don't play Tsoran anymore!

Ya know, instead of 500 posts arguing about what I did or did not say, or why I do something, or whatever, you could just ask.

Most of what Mistomer is saying is correct. Most, but not all. Yeah, I'm good friends with Uliq. I was friends with his PC way back when, and the fact that he's a GM now doesn't change that. Yeah, I talk to him privately. One of the side affects of that is that when I disagree with him (and I do, of course), I usually discuss it with him privately. So you don't see that.

As for my motives for making maps, the person who mentioned I made them for myself, and then decided to share them, was correct. Back in 1996, Zepath had quit, and there were a bunch of non-Zepath maps of some of the newer places, all by different people, in different styles. I wanted a consistant set of maps, so I set about making them. I figured there was no reason not to share them, so I did. That's the whole story.

Regarding my wanting to work for Simu... uh, almost. I have said (and I'll say again) that Simu would be a great company to work for. The folks there have a lot of fun, and there's a lot of great people there to work with. That's not the same thing as saying I want to work for them. To start with, they're over 1000 miles from me, and I ain't moving. Don't need to go any further than that.

As for my kissing Simu ass... I think that's been adequately covered by you'all. When I agree with them, and I think some player is being a total idiot, I say so. When I think the GM's are being idots, I say so. You talked about the guild stuff. Do any of you remember what happened with Kyalia? Rest assured, there's a significant (and growing) list of GM's who most certainly have me on their permanent shit list. (That's not something I'm proud of, but that's the way it is.)

On the topic of the maps existing in game, I'm of the opinion that they do indeed exist. Tsoran's house IS set up as a map making studio. So is one of the rooms in his CHE house he belongs to (Silvergate). I roleplay him (in as much as I roleplay anything... I'm the last person to say I'm a good RP'er) as a cleric who wanders Elanthia making maps for travelers and adventurers. So I don't see it as unreasonable to consider 'Tsoran maps' as an in-game item.

This discussion has brought something to light, however. I probably should get something altered into a Tsoran map. That fact that I don't have anything like that is kind of odd.

You may now return to your regularly scheduled Tsoran worship....

[Galleazzo]

Mistomeer's bullshitNot contradicting a thing, guy. Now I think Uliq is a clueless tool who's screwed up us clerics bad. Tsoran's defended him a bit and I think Tsoran's wrong.

But you know something? At least I give Tsoran the benefit of the doubt, that he agrees with Uliq because that's what he honestly thinks, not because he's a suckup trying to get in the GMs' pants the way you insist he is. A guy's allowed to disagree with me and not be a brain-damaged brown nose.

Mebbe you disagree. But I bet you'd rather we'd all think you disagreed with me because you really think the way you do, not because you're an asshole with a hidden axe to grind, huh?

[Parkbandit]

Great... now that Tsoran came here and posted that.. now I'm not going to be able to draw references to any of the McDonald characters anymore.

I had Hamburglar all set to make his appearance too.

Add me to the I hate Tsoran because I just do list. He ruins my fun and that makes me sad. :sniffle:

[Chadj]

I never knew you RPed Tsoran as a cartographer IG.

But that's cause you never play him anymore :P

[Edited on 6-10-2004 by Chadj]

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Chadj
I never knew you RPed Tsoran as a cartographer IG.

But that's cause you never play him anymore :P

Heh. I rarely take him into the game unless I need to map someplace, and my younger characters can't do it. My rogue's almost catching up to Tsoran, however, so even that's not going to last too much longer. Of course, a cleric is still the best profession for mappping. Minor/major sanctuary is incredibly useful when I put GS in the background as I draw the room on the map.

Biggest mistake I ever made in GS was to use the name of my main character on the maps. While I don't mind the accolades, I literally can't walk around any of the towns without being whispered to continuously about the maps. I'm not complaining about that. I'm mentioning it because it affects how I need to play Tsoran. It's much easier for me to adjust his life story and roleplay him as a wandering cartographer than to be constantly whispering OOC about the maps. I guess you consider this a case of a character taking on a life of his own, and going off in a direction I hadn't intended.

They are, after all, Tsoran's Maps. Not Mike's Maps.

Things would be a lot simpler if they were Mike's Maps!

[AnticorRifling]

How old is your rogue now? Last I saw him I was above him and he was picking for me. I bet I've fallen way behind to yet another one...

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by AnticorRifling
How old is your rogue now? Last I saw him I was above him and he was picking for me. I bet I've fallen way behind to yet another one...

He's 61 now. Tsoran is, I think, 78.

[Chadj]

You think? heh.

My main char is the one I always remember. It's my higher ones that I don't remember (my other characters are all older, but Chadj is my main.)

[SpunGirl]

Kudos for posting Tsoran. You don't seem like you're letting the "observations" and such get to you in any fashion, which is good.

-K

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Chadj
You think? heh.

My main char is the one I always remember. It's my higher ones that I don't remember (my other characters are all older, but Chadj is my main.)

Exactly. Tsoran hasn't been my main character for three and half years now.

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Kudos for posting Tsoran. You don't seem like you're letting the "observations" and such get to you in any fashion, which is good.

I found it, for the most part, extremely amusing that anyone would devote that much effort to discuss my merits, or lack thereof. Of even to discuss the 'Tsoran Worship" syndrome, for lack of a better term. To be honest, however, it kind of bothers me that folks are doing that, even when I'm not around, to the point of bothering other players who (rightly so) don't think I'm the second coming of Koar.

As for the criticism, well, I've grown a thick skin. And some of it IS well deserved. I'm certainly no saint, and, every now and then, I can be a real S.O.B..

Every few days, I come here and search the boards for my name. Usually it's some reference to the spreadsheet or maps, and either I can lend a hand, or someone is pointing out something that's broken and I need to fix it.

Imagine my surprise yesterday when I found page after page of 'The Tsoran Mob' on the search page!

Ya know, my ego is already large enough. I don't a whole 5 page thread about me!

[SpunGirl]

You mean you don't want me getting a few hundred scrolls altered into "Tsoran Fanclub Membership Papers" and handing them out in game, creatin a mailing list and holding meetings devoted to the pwnage of your maps?

Dayum.

-K

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
You mean you don't want me getting a few hundred scrolls altered into "Tsoran Fanclub Membership Papers" and handing them out in game, creatin a mailing list and holding meetings devoted to the pwnage of your maps?

Oh, no, that would be perfectly fine. Let's do it!

::runs, ducks, and hides::

[Pulpit]

I think that would be pretty cool for there to be maps in the game that you could look at ..and show a glyph type map I guess kinda like the map thats in moot hall if its still there ...maybe even change when you get in that certain area you are in ..But either way I wouldn't know how to get around as have as good as I can now without Tsoran's Maps..So regardless of what others think Thanks for your maps Tsoran

Pulpit

[Chadj]

There is one map IG.. If I recall, it's at Moot Hall. It shows the surrounding areas.

[Gan]

I've also used Tsoran's maps and have directed hundreds of folks to his site. I wouldnt know half of what I know about the layout of Elanthia if it werent for Tsoran.

Thanks for the maps and the training aids Tsoran.

Also Tsoran, there's an area right below Mel's Reach that has alot of non-hunting areas that can be used for ceremonies and such, have you been there yet or mapped it out? While walking through it I was impressed with its richness and detail. Would like to know more of what it's there for and possibly use that info to dig up some background on it later.

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Pulpit
I think that would be pretty cool for there to be maps in the game that you could look at ..and show a glyph type map I guess kinda like the map thats in moot hall if its still there ...maybe even change when you get in that certain area you are in ..But either way I wouldn't know how to get around as have as good as I can now without Tsoran's Maps..So regardless of what others think Thanks for your maps Tsoran

Have you tried Stormfront's built in mapping system yet? I don't know if they've done any town except Ta'Vaalor yet, but it's pretty nifty.

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Ganalon
Also Tsoran, there's an area right below Mel's Reach that has alot of non-hunting areas that can be used for ceremonies and such, have you been there yet or mapped it out? While walking through it I was impressed with its richness and detail. Would like to know more of what it's there for and possibly use that info to dig up some background on it later.

I'm aware of that area, but haven't looked at it yet. It's on my to-do list, for when I get motivated to do map stuff again.

[Souzy]

Originally posted by Cheslica
Of course, Tsoran is a good man. He offered to help check out Endless Legends when we are building. But the point is, Plur, Mogonis, Taklo, Nopus, Manifest, and Corwynd are crazy.


OMG! Plur & Corwynd are the same people I believe. But, he does stay in character the majority of the time. Yes he is crazy, but he is so fun. Don't make me hurt you.

Oh and :heart: Tsoran too. His maps are teh bomb. I wouldn't kiss his ass cos he made the site, but, atleast he made something that everyone puts to use. So, I can't hate on him for being known for something that's widely used in this game.

[HarmNone]

I still have some of the old Zepath maps in a notebook around here somewhere. Both those, and Tsoran's maps, got me unlost too many times to count.

The rumor is true. Rangers ARE perpetually lost. :help:

HarmNone says: Thanks, Tsoran (and Zepath, too)

[Edaarin]

I thought Koldeen was Suvar's rogue for the longest time...

[TheEschaton]

Suvar, WTF happened to that old crone? I think I thought I heard he was sold for more than 2 grand a coupla years ago, no?

-TheE-

[OoK]

Suvar was sold and has since pretty much dropped from the face of the map.

Just another little observation: Soon as Tsoran showed up, all the bashing stopped. Interesting.

-OoK

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by OoK
Just another little observation: Soon as Tsoran showed up, all the bashing stopped. Interesting.

Bah, I didn't mean to ruin all your fun. Carry on!

Originally posted by OoK
Suvar was sold and has since pretty much dropped from the face of the map.

Just another little observation: Soon as Tsoran showed up, all the bashing stopped. Interesting.

-OoK


Fuck tsoran.

-Aiming to please.


Don't take away my maps. I didn't mean it.

[Warriorbird]

Tsoran and I disagree on a whole lot of stuff on the boards... I think he's helped stick GS with the crappy guild system for one, and treats a really solid team of coders like crap upon occassion for two...

I think Simu does things upon occassion just because he pitched a fit...

At the same time? I find it pretty damn ironic that the greatest plagarist that Gemstone has ever seen is attacking him over his maps being something IC or not. Of course they are.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Warriorbird
I find it pretty damn ironic that the greatest plagarist that Gemstone has ever seen is attacking him over his maps being something IC or not. Of course they are.

Now THERE'S a story I would like to hear... :smilegrin:

[Tsoran]

I don't think *I* was being attacked for the maps being IC/OOC. It was how other people are treating it that was an issue.

I suppose it's no different than a hundred other OOC things that we try to rationalize in-game because they affect the game, and game play, yet have no bearing in the game. Things such as 'weather', 'message tree's', IMsects (oh how I hate that one), high tax payers, and so forth. At least the maps could easily exist within the framework of the game.

Speaking of maps.... there was a funny story on the official boards recently. Someone was complaining about how there's a room in Greymist with broken directions, because it doesn't match the map I have. As it turns out, the map is right and the room is indeed broken. They were complaining about why it's taken so long to fix that and I brought up that for whatever reason, other cases where the rooms were clearly wrong have taken a long time to fix, such as Ta'Vaalor, which had some obviously wrong directions when it opened.

One of the GM's chimed in and commented on that. Being a new GM at the time, he saw my map, which clearly showed the broken room, and looked at the game, which was indeed broken. Being new and eager, he promptly fixed it.

Oops.

Vaalor is a newbie drop point. It has a DIRECTION system for leading new characters around town. That system, since it was indeed working at the time, was based upon the room structure as it existed, meaning the direction system knew about the broken room directions, not the correct room directions.

So when the room was fixed, DIRECTION stopped working.

No good deed goes ever goes unpunished.

[Edited on 6-11-2004 by Tsoran]

[HarmNone]

:oops: That poor GM. Sets out to save the world, and the world bites him in the ass! :lol:

HarmNone

[SpunGirl]

Ick! Poor GM indeed.

I just find it funny that while Cheslica was shaking her fist about your maps being OOC, she never answered my question about whether she herself uses them. In fact.... where'd she go?

/ponder

-K

[Jonty]

Originally posted by SpunGirl
Ick! Poor GM indeed.

I just find it funny that while Cheslica was shaking her fist about your maps being OOC, she never answered my question about whether she herself uses them. In fact.... where'd she go?

/ponder

-K


Originally posted by Cheslica
I don't use maps. I simply explore the area and memorize the way. Only time I looked at a map was in Ta'Illistim but I didn't bother with it because I didn't want to keep switching my screens.

[SpunGirl]

Heh, I must've missed that. Thx Jonty.

How does your character travel, Cheslica?
Or did you just explore and memorize the way from Ta'Illistim to the Landing all by yourself?

-K

[Galleazzo]

She CLAIMS to have anyway. I got three words about that:

Bull,

Fucking,

Shit.

:soapbox:

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
She CLAIMS to have anyway. I got three words about that:

There's plenty of people who don't use my maps. Some prefer to make their own (lots don't publish them, so you don't know about it), and others don't use maps, either because they prefer not to, or they can't for some reason. I know at least one person who is dyslexic and really can't read a map at all.

Others have never figured out how to print them and don't like looking at them on-screen in another window.

There's plenty of folks who don't use them.

And let's be reasonable -- if I, Zepath, Antalya/Strathe, or Desorceri can explore on our own and make maps, so can anyone else. (And there's a good dozen or so others who have made maps over the years.)

[TheEschaton]

Now if only Tsoran would put the puzzles on his map. I tried exploring the Tower the other day (Maaghara) and couldn't figure out how to fucking get in!


There's probably an age limit, though, which was holding me back.


-TheE-

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Now if only Tsoran would put the puzzles on his map. I tried exploring the Tower the other day (Maaghara) and couldn't figure out how to fucking get in!


There's probably an age limit, though, which was holding me back.

Lots of people would be upset if I put the puzzle answers on the maps. Most players, believe it or not, don't want the answers given to them without first having a chance to figure it out on their own. If the answer's on the map, you really have no opportunity to do the puzzle on your own, unless you forsake the maps altogether.

You can always ask friends (or ask strangers and make new friends) for the answers. You can't unlearn the answer if it's given to you before you want it. That's why they're called 'spoilers', after all.

And, yes, there is an age limit. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but it's somewhere near 68 or 69. (I think it was either 90 or 100 in GS3).

Also... not putting the answers on the maps means I don't have to figure out each and every puzzle in the game.

[Drew]

Tsoran, since you're already here, I have a really minour problem with one of your maps that I found, should I send it to you or no? You mentioned you weren't into maps right now so I don't want to waste your time.

[TheEschaton]

I was saying it tongue in cheek, but sometimes it's frustrating. For example, I don't know HOW people are supposed to know the puzzles behind the runes. Aren't those mainly named after ICE age events?

The Maaghara Tower one is probably just age, since I'm nowhere near 68/69.

-TheE-

[Bobmuhthol]

<<The Maaghara Tower one is probably just age>>

It is.

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Drew
Tsoran, since you're already here, I have a really minour problem with one of your maps that I found, should I send it to you or no? You mentioned you weren't into maps right now so I don't want to waste your time.

Absolutely send it to me (email is best). Every correction for the maps gets filed away for when I'm next in that area doing updates. Even if I don't get to it for a while, it will get done eventually.

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
I was saying it tongue in cheek, but sometimes it's frustrating. For example, I don't know HOW people are supposed to know the puzzles behind the runes. Aren't those mainly named after ICE age events?

The Maaghara Tower one is probably just age, since I'm nowhere near 68/69.

Correct on all counts. Some of the puzzles you simply can't figure out because they require information that can't be found in the game. Fortunately, there are very few of those. The broken lands puzzles are even worse, because the knowlege is from a history that kind of doesn't exist anymore. Other puzzles that rely on out of game info, such as the workshop below the AI, at least rely on information that is 'current era'.

As for the tower, yeah, if you're not even close to the high 60's, forget it. You simply can't get in. Yet.

[Askip]

<< The Maaghara Tower one is probably just age >>

There is also a puzzle...
(partial spoiler below)
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you need to touch several things in the proper order, then recite something.

:D

[Nieninque]

Well that narrows it down ;)

[Xcalibur]

I used, since day 1, his maps.

I even printed some and put them in a cool school bag.

In all things, though, there's brown nosers trying to get some part of the fame/glory.

Booh booh booh.


p.s. It was REALLY hard to draw maps in the medieval era.

[Edited on 15-6-04 by Xcalibur]