Returned Rogue, no clue what to do

[Stressmint]

It's been a while since I've been on GS, and now I'm back and looking to play as my level 52 rogue again.

I went out for a hunt, and my friend noticed my DS was pretty crap-tastic once she found out I was indeed stance dancing.

When I had logged in, I thought I saw a message about points for Cman and armor being available, but I don't know what to do about that at the moment.

I suppose ideally, I would like to see what can be done with the character's stats/skills even if it means losing some stuff and training in others.

So far, these are the details...
~
Name: Sanggios Jousern Race: Half-Elf Profession: Rogue (shown as: Highwayman)
Gender: Male Age: 102 Expr: 2790239 Level: 52
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Constitution (CON): 95 (22) ... 95 (22)
Dexterity (DEX): 92 (26) ... 100 (30)
Agility (AGI): 99 (34) ... 99 (34)
Discipline (DIS): 94 (17) ... 94 (17)
Aura (AUR): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Logic (LOG): 88 (19) ... 88 (19)
Intuition (INT): 89 (19) ... 89 (19)
Wisdom (WIS): 51 (0) ... 51 (0)
Influence (INF): 52 (6) ... 52 (6)
Mana: 16 Silver: 301

Sanggios (at level 52), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 120 30
Shield Use.........................| 136 38
Combat Maneuvers...................| 153 53
Edged Weapons......................| 206 106
Brawling...........................| 212 112
Ambush.............................| 153 53
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 153 53
Dodging............................| 206 106
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 25 5
Survival...........................| 70 15
Disarming Traps....................| 259 159
Picking Locks......................| 259 159
Stalking and Hiding................| 153 53
Perception.........................| 259 159
Climbing...........................| 90 20
Swimming...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 99 23
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

199 days remain until the annual FIXSKILLS is to be granted, on 05/20/2012.

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in the FAQs.
~~

I'd appreciate any assistance with making sure the character can remain (or become) usable.
As far as the weapons go, I've forgotten specifics, but they are enchanted, at least 4x (armor as well) but I have no idea if they are critted, damage padded, etc.
~Sasha (player of Sanggios)

[DaCapn]

Looks like you're trained for katars? If you want to stay that way, you should check your DS with/without a shield. With the left-hand open and your ranks in brawling, you may have higher/equal DS. In which case, you can ditch shield use. If you don't want to stay that way, switch to brawl or OHE only (most, including myself, would suggest OHE). That will give you lots of TPs. Boost your shield training to 1x. Play around with the rest.

I'd ditch the survival & FA unless you're doing some kind of MAing with someone skinning for bounties. Or if you have the FA ranks to reduce herb RT. And if you're doing it for herb RT, just go GoS already.

Drop perception to 2x. There's no need for that much perception training. Also, I'd poop or get off the pot with hiding. Go 0x or 2x. (Or change almost everything and go 3x).

Also, 2x picking/disarm with 403/404 is cheaper than 3x picking/disarm and you can get away with that for a LONG time. Maybe that's out of the question for you, though.

[Mobius1]

Hmmm, where to start...

First of all, you need to drop either brawling or edged, as a picking rogue (especially as a 3x picker!).

3x perception is pointless. Drop it to 2x, or even 1x (I personally would do 1x, if I was 3x picking.).

Drop the first aid, drop the survival, and drop the MoC.

Raise ambush to 2x, as well as hiding. Those are your two core combat skills as a melee rogue.

As for cmans, I'd say go for surge of strength and shadow mastery, first.

Going 3x picking/disarming really hinders your flexibility with combat skills, which is why I'm giving you such blunt advice. If dropping picking and disarm to 2x is an option, then you can have a tad bit more flexibility for the first aid and such.

Also, ranged is the best build, mechanically speaking, for a 3x picker, so you may want to consider it.

EDIT: And if I were you, I'd make it my goal to save up 1m bounty points for a fixstats. That low Wisdom is really going to SUCK!

[Stressmint]

@DeCapn: Way long ago, Sanggios had spells I think up to 403, but I remember changing it in favor of more combat and such. The brawling was for Voln Fu based attacks which I had used for a lot of levels.

@Mobius1: Blunt advice is much appreciated, as I've forgotten a lot of key things in training and stats and such.

I am still new on the bounty system, not quite sure how long it would take to accumulate 1 million points. Should I start now, or see what other things they have to offer and keep that FixStats as a future goal?

As far as choosing a combat style, I think I've tried ranged in the past (not with this character) and it was confusing enough for me to make me reconsider, plus I still have all the ohe things for the character, so I am thinking I'll stay with that, and a spiked targe.

It seems like perception is being a real drain, so I may drop it to 1x, that shouldn't interfere with noticing traps and whatnot?

When you (Mobius1) say drop the FA, Survival and MoC, you mean all together as in take the points away? Or is there a minimum that is good to have?

I've heard about the Guardians of the SunFist, but have no clue what they offer in terms of powers and I already managed to master Voln a while back so I don't think I'd end up switching. I heard it was good for rangers but not necessarily rogues.

Anyway, I'll ruminate on this and I'll be online later in the day and might start the process rolling, here's to coming back! :)

[Mobius1]

I am still new on the bounty system, not quite sure how long it would take to accumulate 1 million points. Should I start now, or see what other things they have to offer and keep that FixStats as a future goal?


1m BP will take quite some time. It's definitely a long term goal. But if you are hunting for XP, you should ALWAYS be doing bounties, anyways.



As far as choosing a combat style, I think I've tried ranged in the past (not with this character) and it was confusing enough for me to make me reconsider, plus I still have all the ohe things for the character, so I am thinking I'll stay with that, and a spiked targe.


Oh, there's certainly no need to go ranged. I just figured I'd inquire about it.



It seems like perception is being a real drain, so I may drop it to 1x, that shouldn't interfere with noticing traps and whatnot?


I don't think it would, because disarm skill itself is what helps to see traps, the most. But if a real picker wants chime in and confirm this, that would be great.



When you (Mobius1) say drop the FA, Survival and MoC, you mean all together as in take the points away? Or is there a minimum that is good to have?


What I meant, is say bye bye to them, comepletely. 3x picking/disarming just doesn't leave you with many luxuries.



I've heard about the Guardians of the SunFist, but have no clue what they offer in terms of powers and I already managed to master Voln a while back so I don't think I'd end up switching. I heard it was good for rangers but not necessarily rogues.


If you drop the brawling, and have no true attachment to Voln, then Sunfist (or CoL), would without question be the better choice, especially with that low Wisdom stat. One of the Rogue's greatest weaknesses is TD, and having low wisdom, brig armor, and Voln, is just a recipe for disaster. Even in GoS, you are probably going to have TD issues, but the +20 TD will certainly help!

Heh, and this is coming from a Voln rogue, with 100 Wisdom, and full plate armor (-21 CvA). I STILL have TD issues!!

EDIT: Oh, and DaCapn's advice about 1x shield is also correct. I think I overlooked that it wasn't 1x because I was just helping a level 30's character with training, lol.

~Midgar

[subzero]

I don't think it would, because disarm skill itself is what helps to see traps, the most. But if a real picker wants chime in and confirm this, that would be great.


I always thought perception was a larger factor in detecting traps, but I may be wrong.

[Gizmo]

I always thought perception was a larger factor in detecting traps, but I may be wrong.

It is, he's wrong..

[Mobius1]

It is, he's wrong..

Say what you want (I doubt you have ever tested it.), but I think 2x perception is overkill, with 3x disarm.

Even assuming both count as equal, 3x/1x would be the same as 2x/2x, and I know for certainty that a level 40's rogue that is 2x/2x has never failed to spot one of my OTF traps, which are as high as what? -480?

I know that with 3x perception, I was not that great at spotting traps, with 0 disarm skill. I also know that when Ildran posted about factors in spotting traps, he listed disarm skill first. Admittedly, I have not tested this, but have you?

I'm pretty sure, that they are at least equal factors in spotting traps, but I don't think perception helps MORE than disarm. The only way it could, is if you were still at the point where gaining ranks gives more then +1 skill. And at her level, 1x will put her beyond that point, anyways.

[Gizmo]

Say what you want (I doubt you have ever tested it.), but I think 2x perception is overkill, with 3x disarm.

Even assuming both count as equal, 3x/1x would be the same as 2x/2x, and I know for certainty that a level 40's rogue that is 2x/2x has never failed to spot one of my OTF traps, which are as high as what? -480?

I know that with 3x perception, I was not that great at spotting traps, with 0 disarm skill. I also know that when Ildran posted about factors in spotting traps, he listed disarm skill first. Admittedly, I have not tested this, but have you?

I'm pretty sure, that they are at least equal factors in spotting traps, but I don't think perception helps MORE than disarm. The only way it could, is if you were still at the point where gaining ranks gives more then +1 skill. And at her level, 1x will put her beyond that point, anyways.

Perception is for detecting traps. Disarming is for....guess what...disarming traps.

Regardless, if a rogue intends on being a locksmith, I always advise 2x perception and at least 2x disarm/pick. 1x perception on 2x pick is tough, as you know. 3x disarm with 1x perception is doable however, 2x perception though is better, especially at cap.

[Gibreficul]

Disarming and perception are equally weighted for finding traps. 3x perception is overkill for anything but an archer. 1x perception is more than enough if you're 3x disarm ranks. Otherwise, the advice given seems good and sound.

[Gizmo]

Oh and don't forget about perception helping with other things as well. Bandits are a prime example where 2x perception can be good heh

[Mobius1]

Oh and don't forget about perception helping with other things as well. Bandits are a prime example where 2x perception can be good heh

I agree there are some small benefits, but again, she has little breathing room with a 3x picking build. Those TP's are far more beneficial, elsewhere.

[Stressmint]

Thanks to everyone chiming in to help with this confusion. I set the changes, I'm considering the drop to 1x perception, and if it really creates a problem, I will try for 2x, but it seems that it's agreed upon that 3x for my character is unnecessary.

Also, I was confused as to the references to "she" and it occurred to me that I signed my name on the first post. Sasha is my name, I am male however, whoops!

Again, thanks :)

[Chastittee]

1) I have nothing valuable to add to this conversation, as my rogue is still, oh, I don't know, 18ish or so?
2) Welcome back, Sasha! YAAY! <3

[Ayamei]

My advice, ignore everything Gizmo says and listen very carefully to Mobius1 and Gibreficul.

[Gibreficul]

My advice, ignore everything Gizmo says and listen very carefully to Mobius1 and Gibreficul.

Don't listen too carefully, sometimes I yell.

[DaCapn]

Also, I was confused as to the references to "she" and it occurred to me that I signed my name on the first post. Sasha is my name, I am male however, whoops!

To me you're all a bunch of "its."

[TyrilPraedus]

Locksmith
30 ranks armor
2x OHB (highest one hand crit mod w/ perfect star)
1x Shield (use a buckler)
1x CM
1x dodge
1x PF (1.5x if you can)
4 spells
2x perception
2x ambush
2x hiding
3x lockpick
3x pick
enough climbing/swimming to do where you need
enough MIU/AS/mana to do what you need

Sniper
2x ranged
1x CM
80 ranks for armor
1x PF (more the better)
3x dodge
3x hiding
2x ambush
3x perception
enough climbing/swimming to do where you need
enough MIU/AS/mana to do what you need

Mauler - Same build as bow, but with perfect maul & vanish can do 2 ambushes in 6 sec. - Will be trying this out once my maul is 7x
2x THW
1x PF
1x CM (can do more, but pf will result in more redux)
80 ranks for armor (90 for the rank 4 armor skill)
3x dodge
3x hiding
2x ambush
3x perception
enough climbing/swimming to do where you need
enough MIU/AS/mana to do what you need

As for staying 2 weapon combat I don't have much experience so I'd reference the other posts.

[DaCapn]

Kind of funny that these builds emphasize 3x perception after we just got done shitting all over 3x perception.

Vanish with the maul could be interesting. Though 410 seems like it would be the more efficient route to me (and I've had great success with it while ambushing with a maul). Then again, I'm a huge advocate of 410 with rogues.


Locksmith
30 ranks armor
2x OHB (highest one hand crit mod w/ perfect star)
1x Shield (use a buckler)
1x CM
1x dodge
1x PF (1.5x if you can)
4 spells
2x perception
2x ambush
2x hiding
3x lockpick
3x pick
enough climbing/swimming to do where you need
enough MIU/AS/mana to do what you need

Sniper
2x ranged
1x CM
80 ranks for armor
1x PF (more the better)
3x dodge
3x hiding
2x ambush
3x perception
enough climbing/swimming to do where you need
enough MIU/AS/mana to do what you need

Mauler - Same build as bow, but with perfect maul & vanish can do 2 ambushes in 6 sec. - Will be trying this out once my maul is 7x
2x THW
1x PF
1x CM (can do more, but pf will result in more redux)
80 ranks for armor (90 for the rank 4 armor skill)
3x dodge
3x hiding
2x ambush
3x perception
enough climbing/swimming to do where you need
enough MIU/AS/mana to do what you need

As for staying 2 weapon combat I don't have much experience so I'd reference the other posts.

[Mobius1]

I actually don't really like any of those builds, myself.



2x OHB (highest one hand crit mod w/ perfect star)


I assume you mean DF here, because crit divisors were made static between all weapons, since GS4. In fact, it's this very reason that daggers have become so popular. Also, though crush damage to head is a nice way to kill things because it only requires a rank 4 crit to kill, a puncture crit to the eye requires less damage, since it only needs a rank 3 wound to death crit. Granted, I still feel crush is the better damage type, simply because it has less chance to miss, but the puncture weapons tend to be faster, which makes up for it. For a 3x picker, I'd recommend OHE simply because it will get the job done just as well, but will cost less training points, which they do desperately need.

Also, as was pointed out before, 2x perception as a 3x picker, using melee, is a waste. Just go 1x. I'd also never recommend 1x dodge to any rogue. 2x is cheap DS, that you shouldn't pass on (and more evade chance.).

As for the second build....again, too much perception. I could understand an archer picking it up for the extra aim chance, but the diminishing returns are too little to make it worthwhile as anything but a post-cap goal.

And the third build....I never did understand the logic behind a THW ambush build, other than pure RP reasons. I personally just cut back from a already low DF 4 sec RT to weapon, to an incredibly low DF 3 second weapon (knuckle-dusters.), and it's actually doing BETTER for me. Unless you are ambushing vs. plate (in which case you can just switch to a handaxe or any other decent plate DF weapon, and do just fine.), it's just not practical to have a high RT weapon. It's pure overkill! You should be able to EASILY death crit things in one shot, with even the smallest of weapons.

Also, any pure combat melee rogue build, should have nothing less than 2x CM (Which usually means going 2x dodge instead of 3x.). I also recommend 2x PF. 3x hiding/perception is a waste - 2x/1x is all you need. Vanish is too much stamina to rely on, on a hunt, even at 2x PF.

So, that's about all of my criticism. Sure, the builds will work...but they are not what I would consider good basic build templates.

~Midgar

[Gizmo]

My advice, ignore everything Gizmo says and listen very carefully to Mobius1 and Gibreficul.

Yeah, I have absolutely no idea about anything in this game. Don't listen to me.

[Rolis]

I actually don't really like any of those builds, myself.



I assume you mean DF here, because crit divisors were made static between all weapons, since GS4. In fact, it's this very reason that daggers have become so popular. Also, though crush damage to head is a nice way to kill things because it only requires a rank 4 crit to kill, a puncture crit to the eye requires less damage, since it only needs a rank 3 wound to death crit. Granted, I still feel crush is the better damage type, simply because it has less chance to miss, but the puncture weapons tend to be faster, which makes up for it. For a 3x picker, I'd recommend OHE simply because it will get the job done just as well, but will cost less training points, which they do desperately need.

~Midgar


Actually, death crit is accomplished with a rank 5 crit using blunt damage to the head while peircing critical strike rank 4 to the eyes causes death.

As to the crush having less chance to miss.. I am not sure what is meant by this.

[Gibreficul]

I'm with Midgar, those 3 builds are all crap. I find the following things to be flawed in them:

Locksmith build: Swap OHB for OHE, because of weapon speed. 1x dodge isn't enough for any rogue build. 2x perception is too much for a 3x disarm build that isn't an archer. Suggesting not only 1x dodge, but only 30 ranks in armor, I'm not sure where this person expects his ability to survive to come from.

Sniper: Good luck affording 3x dodge and 3x hiding and 3x perception. The 3x perception is unnecessary, 2x is adaquate for any archer. Also not sure why they'd suggest stopping at 80 ranks (MBP) when the real goal should be either 140 ranks and full plate, or staying in lower grade armor and relying on things like vanish and armored stealth to stay hidden.

Mauler: Just stupid. Mauler - Same build as bow, but with perfect maul & vanish can do 2 ambushes in 6 sec. - Will be trying this out once my maul is 7x No, you can't. A maul ambushes in 6 seconds, MINIMUM. 6 + 6 = 12. I can hide and ambush without vanish TWICE in the time it'll take you to vanish twice, and ambush with a maul. You're going to be stuck in the open more and die more because of it. Rogues rely on surviving with tactics, speed and timing. A slow weapon isn't doing you any good if you're going rely on ambushing from the shadows to be effective. If you want to be a THW rogue, drop the hiding, buff up your defensive skills, including dodge, armor, and PF, and hunt in the open.

In closing, the 3 posted builds should be laughed at and made fun of until the person who posted them runs away crying. None of them are quality rogue builds, it looks more like some 3 year old started throwing shit at a wall and just accepted whatever resulted.

:club:

[Gan]

All this BS about what's good and bad (epeen measuring) and yet nobody has taken the time to rebut the 3 builds presented with an actual map that the noob can use to start his rogue up.

Half the shit you guys are spewing are either over his head or irrelevant until his character is past 30.

This is the garbage I don't miss about Gemstone.

Ganalon
Rogue ret. lvl 91

[DoctorUnne]

If you want a TWC build the following worked well for me. I had my stats set for max growth from the outset so I had fewer TPs available to me than you will. I also went pure combat but you can probably do decent locksmithing just from giving up the MOC. Either that or put the points into 2x CM or 3x dodge. Also I say 1x armor use but consider training in batches to reach the next level of armor, i.e. no training until level 13, then get 13 ranks at once to get into leather breastplate, then no training until level 40, then 27 ranks at once to get into chain mail, etc. That way you maximize your use of TPs on productive skills in the interim.

1x Armor Use
1x Combat Maneuvers (put extra TPs here as they free up)
2x Edged Weapons
2x Ambush
2x Two Weapon Combat
2x Dodging
2x Stalking and Hiding
1x Multi-Opponent Combat
1x Physical Fitness
2x Perception
40 ranks of Climbing
30 ranks of Swimming
10 ranks of Magic Item Use (for ewave imbeds, eventually go to 20 for lesser shroud imbeds)
10 ranks of Harness Power (for CoL signs)
1x First Aid
1x Survival (for skinning, and since I was in Icemule)

[Jonty]

All this BS about what's good and bad (epeen measuring) and yet nobody has taken the time to rebut the 3 builds presented with an actual map that the noob can use to start his rogue up.

Half the shit you guys are spewing are either over his head or irrelevant until his character is past 30.

This is the garbage I don't miss about Gemstone.

Ganalon
Rogue ret. lvl 91

All the info that Midgar, Gib, and others have presented seems solid and reasonable. And I would assume that the OP is intelligent enough to take the info and come up with his own unique build, unless proven or stated otherwise. I would not assume this goes over his head. And if it did, he could speak up for himself and ask for more help.

I don't see where you're helping out, though.

[subzero]

All this BS about what's good and bad (epeen measuring) and yet nobody has taken the time to rebut the 3 builds presented with an actual map that the noob can use to start his rogue up.

Half the shit you guys are spewing are either over his head or irrelevant until his character is past 30.

This is the garbage I don't miss about Gemstone.

Ganalon
Rogue ret. lvl 91

I have a feeling the answers to his questions can already be found in this forum. He might have to click a button and change it to show older posts, but I'm fairly certain he can find threads with builds in them.

As far as the back and forth, I tend to think that sort of thing is beneficial when people are able to see different perspectives on various skills and their training levels. I also don't necessarily agree that things should just be ignored or not researched simply because it's "over his head" or because he may change things after 30 days. Hell, if he doesn't have an idea of the alternatives, what's he going to change things to after 30 days are up? I like being prepared for that rather than waiting until the last minute to look into different builds and trying to take a stab at what I might like.

[Mobius1]

Actually, death crit is accomplished with a rank 5 crit using blunt damage to the head while peircing critical strike rank 4 to the eyes causes death.


Yes, you are right. The important fact being that piercing to eyes requires the lowest rank crit to be fatal.



As to the crush having less chance to miss.. I am not sure what is meant by this.

I meant crush to head, vs. puncture to eyes. Sorry, I guess I was not very clear with that.

[TyrilPraedus]

Sniper: Good luck affording 3x dodge and 3x hiding and 3x perception. The 3x perception is unnecessary, 2x is adaquate for any archer.


Tyril (at level 65), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Armor Use..........................| 190 90 90
Combat Maneuvers...................| 166 66 66
Ranged Weapons.....................| 234 134 134
Ambush.............................| 234 134 134
Physical Fitness...................| 199 99 99
Dodging............................| 298 198 198
Arcane Symbols.....................| 90 20 20
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20 20
Harness Power......................| 25 5 5
Stalking and Hiding................| 298 198 198
Perception.........................| 298 198 198
Climbing...........................| 152 52 52
Swimming...........................| 130 35 35
Training Points: 0 Phy 93 Mnt (400 Mnt converted to Phy)

You see Tyril Praedus the Sniper.

:thanx:


2x is adaquate for any archer.

Ranged DS = TRUNC((ranged SKILL + perception RANKS) * stance modifier)
OFFENSIVE BOW = .15
DEFENSIVE BOW = .45

@level 25 perception RANKS 2x = 52
@level 25 perception RANKS 3x = 78
assuming ranged skill is 154... and crunching the #s....

Ranged DS @ 2x perception in Offensive = 30
Ranged DS @ 2x perception in Defense = 92

Ranged DS @ 3x perception in Offensive = 34
Ranged DS @ 3x perception in Defense = 104

not satisfied, I know. So lets use Tyril as the example now.
So If I were to drop down to say 2x perception...

level 65 Ranged DS @ 2x perception in Offensive = 54
level 65 Ranged DS @ 2x perception in Defense = 164

level 65 Ranged DS @ 3x perception in Offensive = 64
level 65 Ranged DS @ 3x perception in Defense = 194

Don't forget about AS bonus...
Ranged AS: DEX Bonus + Bow/Arrow Enchant (+50 max) + Ranged Skill + ((Ambush ranks – 40/4) + Perception ranks – 40/4)) + Spell effects
assume DEX Bonus to be 27 & Bow/Arrow Enchant to be 50

27+50+234+[(134-40)/4+(198-40)/4]*

(134-40)/4 = 23.5 AS from Ambush
(198-40)/4 = 39.5 AS from Perception @ 3x
(134-40)/4 = 23.5 AS from Perception @ 2x

*Though rogues can triple train in perception, they cannot gain more than +2 to attack strength per level between these skills (including level 0).
-Verify Rule 1 not violated...

39.5+23.5 = 63 < 134 = (level 65)*2

So essentially I am getting,
+10/30 DS in Off/Def
+16 AS
+aiming
+all the tertiary benefits of perception
for the price of 264 MTP

which is worth:
22 ranks of CM
or 22 ranks of PF
or 13 ranks of armor



Also not sure why they'd suggest stopping at 80 ranks (MBP) when the real goal should be either 140 ranks and full plate, or staying in lower grade armor and relying on things like vanish and armored stealth to stay hidden.

MBP weighs 13lb
Fullplate 49lb?

lower grade armor such as ?
and armored stealth? so keep the 90 ranks for armor steal?



Mauler: Just stupid. Mauler - Same build as bow, but with perfect maul & vanish can do 2 ambushes in 6 sec. - Will be trying this out once my maul is 7x No, you can't. A maul ambushes in 6 seconds, MINIMUM. 6 + 6 = 12. I can hide and ambush without vanish TWICE in the time it'll take you to vanish twice, and ambush with a maul. You're going to be stuck in the open more and die more because of it. Rogues rely on surviving with tactics, speed and timing. A slow weapon isn't doing you any good if you're going rely on ambushing from the shadows to be effective. If you want to be a THW rogue, drop the hiding, buff up your defensive skills, including dodge, armor, and PF, and hunt in the open.

I guess my wording was a little too lucrative regarding the time it takes two ambushes. But I would think legging with a maul with 3x perception a cakewalk, vanish for 0 rt, ambush head... ripe melons anyone?




In closing, the 3 posted builds should be laughed at and made fun of until the person who posted them runs away crying. None of them are quality rogue builds, it looks more like some 3 year old started throwing shit at a wall and just accepted whatever resulted.

Congrats on your degree in logical fallacy.

In closing, I'd like to say thank you to Briarfox as i pulled the formulas and ranged info from his "Art of the Bow" which is also on Krakiipedia and here on the PC. I agree the perception could be better used with the maul build on CM and grabbing some AS & DS there. That being the case going sword and board as well. However I would like someone to tell me how the points to hit 3x perception from 2x could be better spent.

[Mobius1]

So essentially I am getting,
+10/30 DS in Off/Def
+16 AS
+aiming
+all the tertiary benefits of perception
for the price of 264 MTP


I hate to break it to you, but the +AS from perception caps at 2x. Also, the +DS from perception has diminishing returns after 2x training, so that formula no longer applies. The same goes for aiming chance - they all have diminishing returns.



MBP weighs 13lb
Fullplate 49lb?


Errrr...you do realize that the fact that full plate weighs so much, is actually a huge benefit? Armor weight does not count towards encumbrance when it is worn, but every pound that your armor is lightened, is another pound that you can carry before you are encumbered (people call this reverse encumbrance.). The more the armor weighs, the more it can be lightened, which is BETTER for encumbrance.



I guess my wording was a little too lucrative regarding the time it takes two ambushes. But I would think legging with a maul with 3x perception a cakewalk, vanish for 0 rt, ambush head... ripe melons anyone?


I'm perfectly happy with killing things on the first blow, with 4 seconds of RT. But that's just me.



In closing, I'd like to say thank you to Briarfox as i pulled the formulas and ranged info from his "Art of the Bow" which is also on Krakiipedia and here on the PC.

Interesting, I just looked it over, and it says exactly what I did about diminishing returns on perception DS, and that AS caps at 2x.

EDIT: And by the way, I just have to say, that archers are way too damn OP. It always cracks me up when people try to argue that they aren't.

~Midgar

[Stressmint]

OP here, I appreciate the amount of information being discussed here, even though the math part does kinda start going over my head. I just need time to go over it.
It's not so much being a noob, this is an old character from way back when that I'm starting again and wanted to fix things up. He's level 52, but I noticed that enough stuff changed that I had to try and keep up.

[DaCapn]

I guess my wording was a little too lucrative regarding the time it takes two ambushes. But I would think legging with a maul with 3x perception a cakewalk, vanish for 0 rt, ambush head... ripe melons anyone?

Perception plays no role in aiming melee weapons.

[m444w]

Perception plays no role in aiming melee weapons.

Epic quote DaCapn. I remember the day he said that, and everyone was like WTF?!

[TyrilPraedus]

Thanks to those who have provided good info. Bearing that in mind...

How much armor rank? And what asg to wear?
2x thw
2x cm
2x pf
2x dodge ( more the better ? )
2x hide
2x ambush
1.5x perception maybe 1x if needbe
50 rank climb/swim

So my question is go heavy armor or light armor. Or scrap hiding and train to 410 as danno said. Im thinking lbp for the 410 route. But how how much armor? Is over training to push the ap down better or not worth the points ?

[Mobius1]

I keep going over your build, and each time, it ends up looking like a sub-par warrior to me.

[DaCapn]

The build looks pretty standard TWC to me.

With armor, you always have to balance training with what armor is avaialble (in the market and your locker), your other training requirements, and how diverse you want to be. You'll probably spend a lot of time reading the armor & armor use tables on KP over and over. It's a major balancing act for rogues. Check the rogue 410 & armor use poll thread. It will show you how large of a range rogue training has in this regard.

I don't think it's worth it to overtrain for AP reductions alone. If it gets you to the next specialization tier or minimizes spell penalties as well, that's something. Also, I'd advise that you go into brig or doubles if you want to be in that armor range. Otherwise you'll have a hard time finding decent armor.

For instance, with my evasion/sniper build I have 56 ranks of AU (3x hide, 3 ranks evade mastery, 410). I primarily use doubles. At 50 ranks, that's tier 2 armored stealth and 6 more ranks decreases the AP by 1 (pretty minor advantage but it was also only 30 TPs). I've also got the option of changing into chain shirt and still casting 410. I probably won't do that often since I've got so much invested in light armor skills but I've got some decent chain shirt in my locker already so it's always an option.

Also note that it's basically never going to be cheaper to increase armored stealth instead of hide ranks. For doubles in 8 ranks of AU, 12 more ranks would be 60 TPs and give +6 to the stealth roll. At 4/4 with lots of PTP converted to MTP, +6 hide would cost 72 TPs. That's the only time it's cheaper.

[Gan]

http://forum.gsplayers.com/images/reputation/reputation_neg.gifReturned Rogue, no clue... (http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?p=1352769#post1352769) 11-06-2011 03:09 PM why the fuck are you still posting here? get a life loser.

:clap:

[Mobius1]

It's not a TWC build, it's THW (unless you're referring to a different build.)

One thing to not overlook, when choosing armor, is CvA. A big weakness for rogues is TD, and CvA is a very good way to get it (MBP is -18 CvA at a very cheap cost, armor use wise.).

Though, I do like the idea of trying to get a rogue to work in lighter armors. If you like the idea of it, you can certainly pull it off.

I personally opted for the full plate + armor concealer route :P

[Gibreficul]

Once you start getting spells, you just want more... 425 is nice, 430 is great... along the way, you end up with 420. Once you have that, you can imbed your own 410 amulets and use those to hunt while still sporting any armor you want, including full plate. That's how I was doing it for a while.