Please crituque my 2-handed ranger plan

[AlphaTactic]

Howdy, I'm considering coming back to GemStone and I've been reading up on the process of reallocating skills, so I got Tsorans spreadsheet and I've done some crunching. As best as I can tell, my ranger will come out level 14. I'm a little anxious about going 2 handed, as I gave away all my money and everything but my main weapon and shield before I left (and I was OHE) so I'm not sure I will be able to get gear commensurate to his level, but I'll give it a shot. Well, enough babble, here's the plan:

STR: 85
CON: 87
DEX: 95
AGL: 95
DIS: 58
AUR: 57
LOG: 60
INT: 42
WIS: 60
INF: 21

PTP: 51
MTP:41

Spirit isn't an issue (that I know of) because he's in Voln.


At 14 this will be how he is trained:
Armor Use : 17 (1.1X)
Two-Handed Weapons :30 (2.0X)
Combat Maneuvers : 15 (1.0X)
Ambush :15 (1.0X)
Physical Fitness :15 (1.0X)
Dodging :15 (1.0X)
Climbing :3 (0.2X)
Swimming :2 (0.1X)
Stalking and Hiding :20 (1.3X)
Perception :13 (0.9X)
First Aid :6 (0.4X)
Survival :7 (0.5X)
Harness Power :12 (0.8X)
Spell Research :13 (0.9X)
Ranger :13 (0.9X)

To make this plan work I have to skip the first 2 spells (level 0 and 1) and the first three trains in harness power. From there on out I'm singled.

Perception is .9x until 18 then singled.

Hiding is 1.3x until 30 then doubled from there on out

I have some early training in swim and climb but after that none until lev. 31, where I train up climbing to 15 and swimming to ten ranks by the time I'm 43. Will this be too little too late?

I only double in armour at level 13 and 14. This puts me in brig at lev. 22 and light chain (or whatever the next ASG up is called) at 32. Is this benefit worthwhile? I figure that without a shield I will want to get in heavier armour as quick as possible but this was all I could fit in without having to drop a dodge or CM (although I was tempted to knock out a couple dodges because of mobiles and I've read that mass blurs now give the equivilant of 20 ranks of dodge, but I resisted temptation). So, is getting into brig two levels earlier a neligable benefit for the number of points I'd have to spend?

I've read that ambush has been weakened and I've even read some 2-handed ranger plans that have no ambush and sometimes no hiding at all. I can't believe ambush would be that bad, nor do I really see that as the way of a ranger, that's more of a warrior type training.

I think I have a decent, balanced (for a 2-hander) character worked out here, who can fight, use spells, skin decently, and (hopefully) will see some redux down the road.


Thanks in advance for any and all help.

[Parkbandit]

If you need any basic gear.. find Falgrin in the Park. I have some crap in my locker I'll give you.

Welcome back btw.

Couple things:

1) The rumor is that hiding will be changed so that it's next to impossible to effectively hide in anything higher than brig.

2) Ambush isn't as bad as you have heard. It eliminates the parry defense the target has, making them much easier to hit (No more turtles).

[AnticorRifling]

Like I said before, let me know what you need.

Plan doesn't look bad, what race is this ranger?

[Stunseed]

Your stats are good, and I think your choice of Redux over spells a well thought out one. As far as your training, it will be a bitch starting off until you get some Redux in you. My Ranger went this route for the first 21 trains, and it was not easy. Evade, Block, and Parry is your friend in the new times. Never stray from 1x Ambush, PF, or Dodging. Stun's OHE now, and he's even picking up slack in those three, being closer to 1.3x in each.

Using the DS pushdown ambush from hiding will be your saving grace. Prediction :: Hunt stuff that is big, slow, and stupid. Don't fear the hit from the creature, prevent it.

Edited to inform with changes to hiding, 30 ranks of Armor is all that is needed.....Supposedly.

[Edited on 6-3-2004 by Stunseed]

[Edaarin]

If you can, get in touch with Aurach. He's the only ranger I can think of who's used two weapons for any significant amount of time.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Rhys has one who's 30ish I think

[AlphaTactic]

Thanks for the advice and helpful offers guys, I really appreciate all of it. The ranger is human, sorry about that. That's why I'm not too worried about the lowish int and lo stats because they will grow fairly fast.

The only thing I'm still worried about is that most of the 2 handed rangers I've read about went from OHE to 2 handed (or 2WC) in the shift, and since my guy is pretty low of level it may be harder to do.

[Back]

Not to burst your bubble, but think about a two weapon ranger.

If you are going to do that, go giant. Of course, I am biased. Half elf, human or dark-elf would work pretty well also.

In GSVI the TWC costs went down for rangers. They don't have a bad parry either. If you limit your armor to about brig, you can easily .5x spell, lore and whatever MIU is now.

Unless of course you want the two-hander for roleplay reasons.

[Stunseed]

At level 14, my suggestion would be Mountain Ogres, IceMule Trace. True to my prediction, they are big, slow and stupid. Easily hidable from, easy to leg.

RP can defy reason, as far as stats/skills. My ranger is in augmented chain, and will not go lower, even if they do nerf hiding. I'll camo everytime if I need to, not like I spike all day.

[Anebriated]

Just a minor thought as a fellow ranger, your survival training and first aid is pretty much pointless unless you plan on hunting in icemule(we have shimmers anyway) and/or plan on eating alot of herbs in the field(FA still reduce herb rt?). I started out training in both but ended up dropping them to pick up more skills in other areas like MIU. I ended up a Archer/Brawler and am very happy with it. Send me a U2U or IM if you need help with anything getting started up again, more than happy to help.

[Drew]

Well, I looked at the training plan, and if I drop the FA and survival I can go 1x brawling, which is a nice skill to have with Voln Fu, but I wonder if with no shield training it will be useful? Any thoughts?


Oh yeah, I changed my login, if you noticed the change.

[Edited on 6-4-2004 by Drew]

[Galleazzo]

Screw Voln Fu. You need the points elsewhere and you got the new CM maneuvers you can get.

That ain't a bad set of numbers there. Couple things about hunting now. Undertraining armor bones you hard for DS and round time, and weight in general's a lot tougher than you remember.

[Stunseed]

I disagree. If you really must be Voln, a brawling Voln-Fu ranger is one of the most powerful ways to go in the game. Elrodin will easily prove that point. I believe Yarans did quite well, too. CM shouldn't go below 1x, but I believe you could easily hunt using the Fu + Mobiles.

[Anebriated]

Indeed we are. I was easily uphunting 30 trains with voln fu at one point. Also, it is possible to survive without any of the Cman skills, I do it with no problem. So like Stunseed said keep your CM ranks around 1x. If you do end up a brawler and are only 1x your MB will be decent because of mobilies. You will have to stay light though because you will have a bit harder of a time hitting them to begin with as you arent going to be 2x. Although at 40 the difference is only about 50-60 MB.

[Wezas]

Let me know if you need a weapon.

In the locker you see a claidhmore (0x), a massive steel claidhmore (0x), a massive glaes club (0x), a gilded ora battle-axe (2x), a metallic vultite greatsword (4x), a vultite ironwood-hafted flail (4x), a vultite beheading sword (4x), an ivory-hilted matte green claidhmore (0x), and a double-edged vultite greatsword (4x).

And a shout out to the company 2 floors down in my building for not having any security on their wireless LAN. The firewall in my office is a pain to get around, and without their LAN I couldn't have conncted to GS4.

[Drew]

Stunseed and Elrodin: I assume that although they changed airwall (or whatever 102 is called) it still works with fu, just not as well. I was looking at the ranger companions and apparently they have an ability to defend you where they can raise your DS but lower your AS. Does this affect fu? I was thinking between airwall and 630 you might be able to score about 40 free DS with no penalty. Then, even with no shield training I could carry a vultite shield and get the base +20 from the shield as well as the +20 enchantment, so we are talking about 80 extra DS there even without any shield training, if I'm reading this correctly?

Wezas: Thanks so much for the offer, I may take you up.

[Anebriated]

102 does work with Fu, it has saved me many times. Also, having a companion defending you does not negatively effect Fu. It does however make it a waiting game because your companion will not always come right away. So you may find your DS a little low for a bit until they arrive.

Dont forget about society, thats at least 26 free DS and AS(+6 to voln fu AS).

[Drew]

I never really used the actual voln signs cause I was always worried I wouldn't get enough favour back in return. I'm really considering going this route now. Useing the 2 handers for living and voln-fu for undead. It seems like most undead start casting bolts later on in life (actually, pretty early, beginning with wraiths) so that is a potential weakness for a 2 hander in voln.

[Anebriated]

It is doable though, I have similar problems being an archer but I have managed to make it to a fairly respectable train. Just pick your hunting grounds carefully. Slow and stupid critters are your friend.

[Drew]

What about the order of spell training, I'll have 13 ranks availible immediately which I figure I'll use to get up to 613, after that I don't know. I'd like to have airwall and 103, maybe even 107, but 618 is now so useful. I was thinking about going 613-103-618-107-640 or maybe just 618-107-640. Some people suggest just sticking with the ranger circle for the dodge ranks and to get 640, but it seems like having 107 would be pretty useful for someone not using a shield. Thoughts?

[Bobmuhthol]

Your avatar is so photoshopped.




There would never be a woman near Klaive.

[Anebriated]

613-103-640-107. At reallocation i had about 34 spells available to me, i went straight up the ranger circle and wished that i had the 3 spirit the whole time. at your age 618 isnt that important where as the DS gained from 102 and 103 will be very useful.

edit: 101 and 107 are only really effective if you are hunting something that cast CS based spells(vereri or something like that). Not worth the extra 4 trains till 640. 640 has saved my life more times than i care to count. youll appreciate it when you have it.

[Edited on 6-5-2004 by Elrodin]

[Drew]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Your avatar is so photoshopped.




There would never be a woman near Klaive.


I don't know who Klaive is but I can vouch for the authenticity of the avatar:grin:

It's just about the most hilarious picture I've ever seen. You know that little sumo is glad he's wearing a diaper otherwise everyone would know he's shitting himself.

It reminds me of the Conan O'Brian show from a few weeks ago when he wrestled a 700 pound sumo.


Elrodin, I think that's the plan I'll follow

[Stunseed]

Having been a Ranger that shot through to 640, I would suggest especially for a 2-hander or other weak bolt DS type to get 107 first. However, I fully stand by knowing 640 is the best spell a Ranger can have. It has saved me quite a few times being disarmed/unarmed.

[Drew]

First off, thanks for all the help, I just submitted my account reactivation, thanks in part to all the generous advice and offers of help on this board, it really reminded me of the sense of community in GS. I have one more question, I hope; I've worked out a new way of allocating my stats, that will give me many more training points, I said the old way gave me 51/41 but I was wrong, it was actually 51/39. Here is the new method:

STR 70
CON 87
DEX 98
AGL 97
DIS 55
AUR 47
LOG 51
INT 95
WIS 40
INF 20

PTP: 50
MTP: 43
A net gain of 3 points per level, which doesn't seem like much, but it allowed me to bump stalking and hiding up to 1.5x (from 1.3x) keep .5x survival and FA, not drop any harness powers (which is good because wisdom is lower) and get two extra trains in brawling by 14 as well as let me start doubling in brawling earlier. I did move armour down to 1x though.

The placement is a little funky, that intuition so high really kills me, but it's the only way to get this many points.

Here are the stat bonuses at 14:

STR: 18
CON:20
DEX: 25
AGL: 25
DIS: 5
AUR: 0
LOG: 7
INT: 29 (this will pretty much be worthless, no?)
WIS: 1
INF: -11


Am I going to screw myself with bonuses like this? All the physical numbers are good enough. Log and Disc at 7 and 5 respectively are a bit low but should be decent enough that I won't fry too quickly and will absorb fairly fast?

Aura I don't care about, as far as I know all it does is spirit points which I don't value (it counts for TP's as well, but I had to put it low)

Wisdom is lowish, but I had 3 extra harness powers this way to make up. Will this give me a horrible TD though?

Anyway, as long as this path won't really screw me over, I'm going to go with it, thanks again in advance for any help.

[Stunseed]

Intuition is NOT worthless. Helps you dodge among other critical small factors in-game. Dex and Agi are WAY too high to start at 0. Worse case scenario drop both by 5 and hit Aura, which will add some more MTP's without taking away PTP's. Constitution can also be dropped 5, and added to discipline.

I understand you're not aiming for long-term goals, but that'll help some without making your stats blow for right now.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Stunseed
Dex and Agi are WAY too high to start at 0. Worse case scenario drop both by 5 and hit Aura, which will add some more MTP's without taking away PTP's. Constitution can also be dropped 5, and added to discipline.


Yeah, I was thinking the same thing, but at least according to Tsoran's trainer, that won't work. Dropping those points and moving them lost me 17 TPs by level 14. I don't really understand why, but that's what it said.


I think it's because of the new prime requisites system. Rangers count Int and Dex double for TPs from what I understand. I'm going to try and just lower agility and see if that will work....

[Stunseed]

Well damn, I forgot about that. Sorry bout that, don't mean to steer you in the wrong direction. I would still try it, though.

[Anebriated]

Stun, I would have suggested him to get 107 first but that doesnt help bolt DS. 107 helps CS based attacks. thats why i suggested getting to 103(gives him 102 and 103 for bolt attacks) and then he gets 640 sooner. At 44 I am only now starting to wish i had 107, but i get it in 1 train anyway.

[Drew]

Originally posted by Stunseed
Well damn, I forgot about that. Sorry bout that, don't mean to steer you in the wrong direction. I would still try it, though.

I didn't think you were. I have no idea why, but even taking points only out of agility and placing them in either disc or aura did not work. Is it possible that aura and disc count for both mental and physical but only half as much for each? I never thought that was true but I can't explain it otherwise, and I think Tsoran's spreadsheet is pretty air-tight.


So the question is, are 17 TPs over 14 levels worth less than optimal stat placement?



Originally posted by Elrodin
Stun, I would have suggested him to get 107 first but that doesnt help bolt DS. 107 helps CS based attacks. thats why i suggested getting to 103(gives him 102 and 103 for bolt attacks) and then he gets 640 sooner. At 44 I am only now starting to wish i had 107, but i get it in 1 train anyway.
Yeah, I plan to wait on 107 until 640 if only because the spells in-between are useless in all but a few very specific siuations.

[Drew]

Well, I did a simple experiment and I think I've gotten to the to the bottom of this.

aura and disc points are not worth double points, they are worth they exact same as any other point, they just split how the TP's are diveded up.

Here are the TPs at 658:

PTP: 49.93
MTP: 42.63

Here are the TPs after adding 2 points to agility:

PTP: 50.03
MTP: 42.63



Then taking those two points from agility and adding it to aura:

PTP: 49.98
MTP: 42.68



So the agility adds .1 of a PTP.

The aura adds .05 to PTP and .05 to MTP. For a total of .1 TP




So aura and disc points are not "worth double" which is what I always thought (apparently you as well Stunseed) they are worth the exact same as any other point, they are just split evenly between MTP and PTP.

This is confirmed by the Wizards website:

Physical TP
(25 + (((Aura + Discipline)/2 + Strength + Constitution + Dexterity + Agility)/20))

Mental TP
(25 + (((Aura + Discipline)/2 + Logic + Intuition + Influence + Wisdom)/20))

Notice the "divided by 2" at the end of the brackets.


Kinda funny to realize that I had been overvalueing aura and discipline for almost ten years now, boy is my face red.

edit: typo

[Edited on 6-6-2004 by Drew]

[Tsoran]

Originally posted by Drew
aura and disc points are not worth double points, they are worth they exact same as any other point, they just split how the TP's are diveded up.

That's exactly correct. AUR and DIS are no longer worth double, like they were in GS3. Your two primary stats, however, ARE worth double.

[Drew]

Thanks for confirming that Tsoran

[Stunseed]

Thanks for helping us out, Tsoran. I stand corrected, then.