Is There a Law School Scam?

[Thickbeard]

With the ABA allowing law schools to proliferate, there is now a massive oversupply of aspiring lawyers unable to practice sophistry due to a lack of law jobs. Many of these students go into debt for hundreds of thousands of dollars only to find that they cannot find employment.

The end result is that they have a huge pile of debt that cannot be forgiven, and since they are unable to get a high-paying legal job they have no hope of ever paying off their student loans -- making them indentured servants. Furthermore, law schools regularly pad their placement numbers by including law school graduates working part-time or temporary positions that do not require a law degree. Even people with law degrees from second tier universities are reporting trouble finding employment in law-related fields.

http://lawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

http://www.insidehighered.com/news/2011/10/06/plans_announced_to_sue_15_law_schools_over_placeme nt_data

http://insidethelawschoolscam.blogspot.com/

"Lawyer Turns Topless Dancer to Pay the Bills"
http://redtape.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/09/13/7730301-lawyer-turns-topless-dancer-to-pay-the-bills

[Tgo01]

So where is the scam in your argument?

[Latrinsorm]

So sue them.

[Thickbeard]

So where is the scam in your argument?

Read the second paragraph. Law schools pad their placement numbers.

[Gan]

Read the second paragraph. Law schools pad their placement numbers.

So you are stating that law schools are scamming students into going to law school and into huge debt with the hopes getting out and getting high paying jobs in part by padding their placement numbers to give evidence of the success rate of employment for graduates.


Go fish.

[Hulkein]

I know a lot of people I went to school with are unhappy with the decision. Tuition is sky high and the job market isn't great. Keller went to a top tier so it's easier for him but even tier 2 law school grads are struggling to get the real high paying jobs.

If you have a passion for a particular job that requires a law degree, go for it. Don't look at it as an automatic high paycheck unless you get in a T10 school, though.

- Hulkein, Esquire

[Keller]

This is such an old issue. It's been discussed for years now.

Kids that go to law school, even tier1 schools, without knowing what they are getting into are foolish. Spend an hour or two on a number of law blogs/forums and you're going to need blinders to avoid this issue.

A simple fix is to (i) remove placement from rankings and (ii) only provide placement upon request from applicants and ONLY with the breakout of the types (public/private) and salaries (<30k, 30-40k, 40-50k, etc). Also, they should be forced to provide the percentage of non respondents.

[Warriorbird]

It's a useful knowledge set. I didn't delude myself I was going to use it for what my classmates thought they were.

[Thickbeard]

So you are stating that law schools are scamming students into going to law school and into huge debt with the hopes getting out and getting high paying jobs in part by padding their placement numbers to give evidence of the success rate of employment for graduates.

Yes, they are playing with the numbers. Sort of like how politicians play with the numbers related to the economy.

[Keller]

I know a lot of people I went to school with are unhappy with the decision. Tuition is sky high and the job market isn't great. Keller went to a top tier so it's easier for him but even tier 2 law school grads are struggling to get the real high paying jobs.

If you have a passion for a particular job that requires a law degree, go for it. Don't look at it as an automatic high paycheck unless you get in a T10 school, though.

- Hulkein, Esquire

To be absolutely clear, if I could remake life decisions I would have gone to med school.

Better hours (in the right specialties), real vacations (hard to work from home), better money, and I would get paid MORE to live outside of a major city.

Goes to show what being a lazy kid will do.

Also, the idea of having an active profession appeals to me. I sit on my ass and read/write 10+ hours a day.

[TheEschaton]

Even I went to a top 30 law school and I had problems finding a job. Of course, I graduated right after the collapse in 2008, but these guys still mocked me for it. ;)

My thing was, I was very specific with what I wanted in terms of a job. I actually found it would have been easier to get a corporate firm job than a specialized public interest job, which, to me, seems kinda fucked up.

[Keller]

Even I went to a top 30 law school and I had problems finding a job. Of course, I graduated right after the collapse in 2008, but these guys still mocked me for it. ;)

My thing was, I was very specific with what I wanted in terms of a job. I actually found it would have been easier to get a corporate firm job than a specialized public interest job, which, to me, seems kinda fucked up.

Like he said, Tier2.

:love:

[Gan]

To be absolutely clear, if I could remake life decisions I would have gone to med school.

Better hours (in the right specialties), real vacations (hard to work from home), better money, and I would get paid MORE to live outside of a major city.

Surgeon is out for you if hours were to be a consideration. They work their asses off long after their residency. Add call to that and you're never home.

The cake jobs are for large outfits (Kaiser, Kelsey, etc.) in suburban areas in general medicine, pediatrics or oncology.

[Parkbandit]

Even I went to a top 30 law school and I had problems finding a job. Of course, I graduated right after the collapse in 2008, but these guys still mocked me for it. ;)

My thing was, I was very specific with what I wanted in terms of a job. I actually found it would have been easier to get a corporate firm job than a specialized public interest job, which, to me, seems kinda fucked up.

You didn't have a problem finding a job because there weren't jobs to be had.. you had problems finding jobs because you didn't want to work for an evil corporation and job seeking was interfering with your World of Warcraft playing time.

[Keller]

Surgeon is out for you if hours were to be a consideration. They work their asses off long after their residency. Add call to that and you're never home.

The cake jobs are for large outfits (Kaiser, Kelsey, etc.) in suburban areas in general medicine, pediatrics or oncology.

If you asked me right now, I'd go into emergency medicine.

[Gan]

If you asked me right now, I'd go into emergency medicine.

You would hate the hours. And the call.

I agree that if I went through med school it would be to be an ED Doc. There's no substitute for the adrenaline found there.

[g++]

Like he said, Tier2.

:love:

Dude E has tier 13.

[Thickbeard]

Kids that go to law school, even tier1 schools, without knowing what they are getting into are foolish. Spend an hour or two on a number of law blogs/forums and you're going to need blinders to avoid this issue.

I agree that going to law school without doing proper research and taking on a huge pile of unforgivable debt is foolish. It still horrifies me that people can be permanently in debt from early adulthood to death due to a foolish mistake, and it looks like some law schools acted in an immoral matter in order to get students.

I can understand why universities would do this though. Large class sizes with a single instructor, no lab equipment and being able to charge exorbitant amounts for tuition would make a law program desirable for any university. How do you feel about the tier four schools who have to know that the only way most of their students will get jobs is probably through nepotism? Do you feel they are acting in an immoral way?

[Gan]

Since when is immoral illegal? Its not like the sad little disadvantaged half-wit kids being suckered into selling their souls for a tier 2,000 lawschool were forced to do so.

Have you been wronged by a law school in the near past?

[Thickbeard]

Since when is immoral illegal? Its not like the sad little disadvantaged half-wit kids being suckered into selling their souls for a tier 2,000 lawschool were forced to do so.

Have you been wronged by a law school in the near past?

I'm just curious what lawyers think about the subject. I have never been wronged by a law school nor attended a law school because I'm a biology geek. However, I am worried that the poor little half-wits will be one of the reasons for debt forgiveness of student loans, and this will mean more people go to school and then default; therefore, driving up the price of tuition for the full-wits and making it more difficult to get student loans.

[TheEschaton]

I dunno, if I didn't get into a good law school, I wouldn't have gone. But it all depends on what you're looking for in a law school. For example, if you're looking to be an ADA in Boston, Suffolk Law would have been more than enough, half the ADAs in the county are from Suffolk Law, another third are from Northeastern, which is known for its public interest focus.

[Stretch]

To be absolutely clear, if I could remake life decisions I would have gone to med school.

Better hours (in the right specialties), real vacations (hard to work from home), better money, and I would get paid MORE to live outside of a major city.

Goes to show what being a lazy kid will do.

Also, the idea of having an active profession appeals to me. I sit on my ass and read/write 10+ hours a day.

My brother and I trade stories about whose job sucks more -- he's a third year resident and I'm a middle manager at a bank. He *might* be able to catch up to me in lifetime earnings by the time he's close to 50. I might also be 300 lbs by the time I'm 45 because I stare at data 10 hours a day.

At least we're not lawyers though...

[Gan]

I dunno, if I didn't get into a good law school, I wouldn't have gone. But it all depends on what you're looking for in a law school. For example, if you're looking to be an ADA in Boston, Suffolk Law would have been more than enough, half the ADAs in the county are from Suffolk Law, another third are from Northeastern, which is known for its public interest focus.

Why did you go to law school?

[Parkbandit]

If you asked me right now, I'd go into emergency medicine.

A friend we went out with last night is an ED doctor. Last week a "lady" comes into the EM at 6 PM on a Sunday... with a dildo stuck all the way up her ass.. still on. They had to surgically remove it.

[Inspire]

I no longer want to be a lawyer. Thank you.

[sst]

I no longer want to be a lawyer. Thank you.

That's likely for the best. The last thing somebody needs is their lawyer crying like a little bitch in the courtroom.

[Keller]

You would hate the hours. And the call.

I agree that if I went through med school it would be to be an ED Doc. There's no substitute for the adrenaline found there.

Not sure about that.

Out of the 7 other guys I lived with for 3 years in college, 3 of them are currently either 2d or 3d year ER residents. All three of them choose it for the lifestyle. (All three have pretty good scholastic pedigree, so it might be different less competitive jobs.)

There is no call and they work 12-14 10s a month. I currently work 20 10s a month. I think I'd survive.

[Keller]

A friend we went out with last night is an ED doctor. Last week a "lady" comes into the EM at 6 PM on a Sunday... with a dildo stuck all the way up her ass.. still on. They had to surgically remove it.

ER docs have tons of great stories.

[TheEschaton]

Why did you go to law school?

To eventually work for the DoJ.