Armor & 410 Poll

[DaCapn]

Just curious how people are trained with respect to armor and MnE, specifically 410. Polls have 10 possible choices so please "vote" how your main rogue is used primarily: which armor group and whether or not they use 410 (through MnE training, not imbeds or special toys).

Feel free to post if you use 410 through imbeds, or have >410 in MnE, whatever. I'm just curious here.

EDIT: I noticed that you can allow multiple votes. So feel free to take an extra vote if you have multiple rogues.

[Deathravin]

403 & 404, no armor, main hand box, off-hand lockpick.

[Xaerve]

Unless you want to go overboard for the +armor ranks to wear MBP, then I think that using some solid HCP chain hauberk with the lower % of failure is a really viable option.

[petroglyph]

I knew my decision to stop at chain was unusual, but I didn't realize it was that unusual. Are silentstrike and vanish still viable while wearing plate, or does the extra hiding penalty start causing failures?

(Or perhaps all the plate-wearing rogues are just higher level than mine; I did plan to go back to armor eventually.)

[Mobius1]

Well, I think that's sort of a problem with this poll. When talking plate, you could mean MBP (which is probably what most wear) which is relatively cheap to train for, or you could mean full plate, which is far more expensive (Requires 2Xing armor at least 40 times.).

The same could be said for chain class. There's a big difference between training off the casting penalty in a chain shirt, and training it off in hauberk.

If it were me, I'd have included the AsG's in the poll!

But basically, what I take from this poll, is that about half of rogues are spell trained, and the other half are not. When you are not trained in spells, you are most likely going to be in plate (usually MBP for most), thus why there's such concentration in that AG. Pretty sad to me that so many rogues are compelled to train in spells, when they are supposed to be squares (of course, I'm blaming the system, not the players.).

[DoctorUnne]

I don't know 410 so I voted no but I have access to it in an imbed if I need it in an emergency. No hindrance in plate with imbeds.

As for vanish in plate it will reduce your hiding ability by 60 ranks, so 2x becomes 1.4x and 3x becomes 2.4x. Still certainly viable

[subzero]

Pretty sad to me that so many rogues are compelled to train in spells, when they are supposed to be squares (of course, I'm blaming the system, not the players.).

Heh, I was thinking how sad it was that so many feel the need to wear plate. Not saying it's wrong mechanics-wise, but the concept of a rogue in any sort of plate armor simply feels wrong to me.

[Mobius1]

Heh, I was thinking how sad it was that so many feel the need to wear plate. Not saying it's wrong mechanics-wise, but the concept of a rogue in any sort of plate armor simply feels wrong to me.

Actually, I totally agree with you. I got an armor concealer for that very fact. I despise the idea of my character wearing plate!

[DaCapn]

I wish there were enough poll options to cover AsGs (I maxed out the options). I'd definitely like to see breaking points of breast/full plate and also how levels factor in (what people think their endgame armor will be).

But anyway, this is what I'm seeing:
The official position is that rogues should be in light armors and that casting rogues are mutant builds. It looks like there's ~10% following the "intended path." There's always the "no wrong way to train a rogue" philosophy but for non-casting rogues, there appears to be one right AG. My thinking is that this indicates a need for more low-AG incentives, but that's me.

I wonder how much these things are taken into consideration before/as/after dev is done. As far as I understand, GMs can collect mass stats on character training. Either that or decisions about "vast majorities of people training in X" are just based upon the collective wisdom. (One example was the cooldown changes to smastery and surge. Part of the stated intent was to reduce incentives so that the CMs weren't utilized by 100% of rogues. Personally, I see it as a reason that one or both should be guild skills.)

[Mobius1]

I agree, smastery is like the old sweep. If it was in the guild, we'd see a lot more people there training. It's the perfect thing to do with a skill that most rogues train in.

[Gizmo]

I liked my Robe Rogue builds myself, and still never stray away from them anymore, just because it seems so fitting to do so.

[Kitsun]

My rogue is in MBP and uses 410. Really need to keep my AG badge active with 8 more Armor Ranks to keep the hinderance down. Casting in anything above MBP is pretty much futile. I had like a 4% success rate in fullplate with 202 Armor ranks.

The last time they discussed vision versus reality for rogue training on the officials, it was during the vanish release. They're adding more incentives to lower ASGs so every rogue doesn't feel obligated to go the fullplate route.

[m444w]

I agree, smastery is like the old sweep. If it was in the guild, we'd see a lot more people there training. It's the perfect thing to do with a skill that most rogues train in.

Adding more time sinks for skills most rogues need... Yeah, that's perfect.

Rather if they used the time to make stunmans not suck bigfoot dick.

[DaCapn]

Adding more time sinks for skills most rogues need... Yeah, that's perfect.

Rather if they used the time to make stunmans not suck bigfoot dick.

On the surface, your evaluation is short-sighted (moving essential CMs into guild skills to replace relatively useless ones).

When you actually think about it, it lacks any ground to stand on. If you replace useless guild skills with useful skills, you can only get improvements. You could keep your CM-trained skills and ignore them in the guild and be no worse off. That's just for starters.

You can't spend more than one CM point per level anyway. Funnily enough, the guild skill system should allow you to master smastery EARLIER than the CM system.

As a side note, some people DO train in CM versions of guild skills that they want until they are far enough in the guild.

[m444w]

On the surface, your evaluation is short-sighted (moving essential CMs into guild skills to replace relatively useless ones).

When you actually think about it, it lacks any ground to stand on. If you replace useless guild skills with useful skills, you can only get improvements. You could keep your CM-trained skills and ignore them in the guild and be no worse off. That's just for starters.

You can't spend more than one CM point per level anyway. Funnily enough, the guild skill system should allow you to master smastery EARLIER than the CM system.

As a side note, some people DO train in CM versions of guild skills that they want until they are far enough in the guild.

What would the tasks be? Who is going to code it? It would be twice as effective to add options for rogues in light armor to have a less cooldown period for it, rather than spending months (or more likely years) imagining, coding, qcing and then re-releasing a system that is not what it should be, but certainly not broken.

I would rather they spend that time redesigning stunmans to be more effective in comparison to options afforded to squares, pures, and semis... providing a reason to use cheapshots beyond just the highly situational throatchop and kneebash, change sweep to a 3 second knockdown, and change the stamina cost to subdue.

Would the alternate venue of adding smastery to the guild so you didn't have to spend precious cman points on it seems at the surface like an awesome change, but it is predicated by the assumption of unlimited resources which is certainly not even close to a real life assessment of the current GS development potential.

[DaCapn]

What would the tasks be? Who is going to code it? It would be twice as effective to add options for rogues in light armor to have a less cooldown period for it, rather than spending months (or more likely years) imagining, coding, qcing and then re-releasing a system that is not what it should be, but certainly not broken.

I would rather they spend that time redesigning stunmans to be more effective in comparison to options afforded to squares, pures, and semis... providing a reason to use cheapshots beyond just the highly situational throatchop and kneebash, change sweep to a 3 second knockdown, and change the stamina cost to subdue.

Would the alternate venue of adding smastery to the guild so you didn't have to spend precious cman points on it seems at the surface like an awesome change, but it is predicated by the assumption of unlimited resources which is certainly not even close to a real life assessment of the current GS development potential.

Sure, development resources is definitely an important factor. Your previous post seemed to outright reject the idea based solely upon the guild work framework.

I'd definitely love some quick enhancements to those skills. I'm of the school of thought that some cmans get over-utilized simply because the other ones just aren't any good (say cheapshots compared to dirtkick). I'll add to, and summarize, your list of quick fixes:
(1) sweep - drop RT from 5 to 3 seconds
(2) cheapshots - make them stance independent, make the RT 3 seconds, possibly increase their bonuses
(3) subdue - reduce stamina cost
(4) stunmans - increase effectiveness

So how long do those quick fixes take? Let's go one-by-one: (1) change one number, (2) for each cheapshot: delete some code, change one number, insert a couple of numbers, (3) change one number, (4) insert a number or two

What should we guess? 15 minutes each? 30 on the generous side? Game balance isn't particularly difficult here. Basically all of those suggestions simply bring those cmans in line with the existing cmans we WISH were guild skills. Let's give this series of quick fixes an entire month. What now? Perhaps a long-term goal? All I'm really saying is that quick fixes should be relatively small competition for long-term goals.

[m444w]

Sure, development resources is definitely an important factor. Your previous post seemed to outright reject the idea based solely upon the guild work framework.

I'd definitely love some quick enhancements to those skills. I'm of the school of thought that some cmans get over-utilized simply because the other ones just aren't any good (say cheapshots compared to dirtkick). I'll add to, and summarize, your list of quick fixes:
(1) sweep - drop RT from 5 to 3 seconds
(2) cheapshots - make them stance independent, make the RT 3 seconds, possibly increase their bonuses
(3) subdue - reduce stamina cost
(4) stunmans - increase effectiveness

So how long do those quick fixes take? Let's go one-by-one: (1) change one number, (2) for each cheapshot: delete some code, change one number, insert a couple of numbers, (3) change one number, (4) insert a number or two

What should we guess? 15 minutes each? 30 on the generous side? Game balance isn't particularly difficult here. Basically all of those suggestions simply bring those cmans in line with the existing cmans we WISH were guild skills. Let's give this series of quick fixes an entire month. What now? Perhaps a long-term goal? All I'm really saying is that quick fixes should be relatively small competition for long-term goals.

I would hope they were 15 minutes each (thought probably not true if what I've heard about GSL is true), but I imagine they'd get mired down by at least 1 year of bureaucratic bs each!

[Mobius1]

Considering how I've already proposed those exact ideas on the officials and got no response...I'd say it's completely hopeless at this time.

Though I do feel adding smastery to the guild is a good idea, I never said that's what the prime focus should be right now.

But actually, when we're talking about my IDEAL plan for the guild, it's far more that just adding smastery. And it's also on the official forums. Of course, it was also completely pointless and a waste of my time, since the GM's won't lift a finger for the guild, let alone make such drastic changes.

~Midgar

[Gibreficul]

I clicked PLATE/CAST 410 because Gibreficul wears plate and uses 410 via imbed, that he makes while resting. Long term, maybe drop to MBP and cast once I get the armor ranks.