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Fallen
09-02-2011, 09:39 AM
Tackle is pointlessly horrible. I think we can all agree on that fact, so why not push for improvements? The idea of being able to tackle multiple creatures at once isn’t a new concept, as it is the most obvious solution to improve both the maneuver and the class in a fitting manner. The theme of Warriors having a limited, yet effective means of small scale crowd control is already a reality. Berserk allows the warrior to target everything in the room. M-strike also allows for targeting multiple creatures in 1 attempt. Warcries have also been modified to aid in dealing with crowds. This suggested improvement to tackle falls along the same lines of limited crowd control while still keeping the Warrior balanced and within his niche.

Tackle at rank 5 through the CMAN system should allow for the option to attempt to tackle 2 creatures. If mastered through the Warrior guild, the Warrior can attempt to tackle 3 creatures. The syntax would be similar to M-strike, where you can toggle how many targets you wish to engage if you would like to attempt to tackle less than your maximum amount of enemies. The stamina costs for the maneuver can either mimic M-strike’s system of cool downs and penalties, or simply increase by 1.5x for a 2 target tackle, and 2x for a 3 target tackle. The roundtime of 7 seconds for this maneuver will remain unchanged regardless of the number of targets.

A penalty modifier would be applied for attempting to tackle multiple creatures. A -10 would apply to any tackle attempt involving 2 creatures, and -20 to 3 creatures. To off-set these added penalties, the penalties applied to the maneuver as it currently stands would also be revised. The penalty system for tackle should reflect the design to have warriors in heavy armor and reward them as such. Being in plate class armor that covers your chest and arms should grant an automatic +10 bonus. Obviously, if you are not trained to wear plate that bonus would be negated by the appropriate penalties. Penalties associated with spiked armor would remain unchanged, as well as those penalties and limitations based on the size of the Warrior and his target(s). Finally, Warriors with a combined Str/Con Bonus above 50 would receive an additional +10 endroll bonus.

In Summary:


1. Tackle would be updated to allow for multiple targets to be hit with a single attempt. Two total targets at rank 5, and 3 total targets through if mastered through the Warrior guild.


2. Stamina costs could either mimic M-strike’s current system, or increase by 1.5x for 2 targets, and 2x for 3 targets.


3. Warriors in plate class armor above MBP gain an automatic +10 to their endrolls when tackling. Warriors achieving a Strength/Con stat bonus above 50 will receive an additional +10 to their CMAN attempt.


4. Attempting to tackle 2 targets adds a -10 penalty to the endroll, as well as a -20 endroll penalty for 3 targets.


5. The 7 second RT for the tackle maneuver would remain regardless of the number of targets.Thoughts? Would the above changes be enough to make tackle useful to Warriors as they currently are built and hunt? Did I make any false assumptions or glaring omissions? I’ll throw this up on the Officials once I get the chance.

Androidpk
09-02-2011, 10:29 AM
Not really, though a multi-targeted feint would be sweet.

Warriorbird
09-02-2011, 10:39 AM
I'm not sure the endroll penalties and boosts make sense. Otherwise, I like it...but...it's still 7 seconds.

Fallen
09-02-2011, 10:49 AM
The idea is that you'd have a near 100% chance to knock down anything like level if you were only targetting 1 creature if you were in plate and had the full +20 endroll bonus, or a legit chance to knock down 2-3 creatures if fully trained.

I agree a much more simple approach would be to knock the RT down to 5 or even 3 seconds and adjust costs appropriately. Still, I like the idea of a warrior bowling over a crowd of creatures at once, and think it could be situationally useful.

Gelston
09-02-2011, 11:55 AM
I'd be happy if the RT was just 5 seconds with no other changes.

Mohrgan
09-02-2011, 12:32 PM
Tackle is pointlessly horrible. I think we can all agree on that fact, so why not push for improvements? The idea of being able to tackle multiple creatures at once isn’t a new concept, as it is the most obvious solution to improve both the maneuver and the class in a fitting manner. The theme of Warriors having a limited, yet effective means of small scale crowd control is already a reality. Berserk allows the warrior to target everything in the room. M-strike also allows for targeting multiple creatures in 1 attempt. Warcries have also been modified to aid in dealing with crowds. This suggested improvement to tackle falls along the same lines of limited crowd control while still keeping the Warrior balanced and within his niche.

Tackle at rank 5 through the CMAN system should allow for the option to attempt to tackle 2 creatures. If mastered through the Warrior guild, the Warrior can attempt to tackle 3 creatures. The syntax would be similar to M-strike, where you can toggle how many targets you wish to engage if you would like to attempt to tackle less than your maximum amount of enemies. The stamina costs for the maneuver can either mimic M-strike’s system of cool downs and penalties, or simply increase by 1.5x for a 2 target tackle, and 2x for a 3 target tackle. The roundtime of 7 seconds for this maneuver will remain unchanged regardless of the number of targets.

A penalty modifier would be applied for attempting to tackle multiple creatures. A -10 would apply to any tackle attempt involving 2 creatures, and -20 to 3 creatures. To off-set these added penalties, the penalties applied to the maneuver as it currently stands would also be revised. The penalty system for tackle should reflect the design to have warriors in heavy armor and reward them as such. Being in plate class armor that covers your chest and arms should grant an automatic +10 bonus. Obviously, if you are not trained to wear plate that bonus would be negated by the appropriate penalties. Penalties associated with spiked armor would remain unchanged, as well as those penalties and limitations based on the size of the Warrior and his target(s). Finally, Warriors with a combined Str/Con Bonus above 50 would receive an additional +10 endroll bonus.

In Summary:


1. Tackle would be updated to allow for multiple targets to be hit with a single attempt. Two total targets at rank 5, and 3 total targets through if mastered through the Warrior guild.


2. Stamina costs could either mimic M-strike’s current system, or increase by 1.5x for 2 targets, and 2x for 3 targets.


3. Warriors in plate class armor above MBP gain an automatic +10 to their endrolls when tackling. Warriors achieving a Strength/Con stat bonus above 50 will receive an additional +10 to their CMAN attempt.


4. Attempting to tackle 2 targets adds a -10 penalty to the endroll, as well as a -20 endroll penalty for 3 targets.


5. The 7 second RT for the tackle maneuver would remain regardless of the number of targets.Thoughts? Would the above changes be enough to make tackle useful to Warriors as they currently are built and hunt? Did I make any false assumptions or glaring omissions? I’ll throw this up on the Officials once I get the chance.




I would totally settle for a reduction in the 7 sec RT. It is THE major reason I don't use my tackle skill that I spent YEARS mastering through the guild. I can't speak to the efficacy of the CMAN version, but using the guild version, you're pretty good for completing the manuver, but when I can tackle in 7 sec or feint in 3 sec...the RT is what makes it useless, especially when you hunt in places where 7sec of hard RT can really get you into trouble.

Sylvan Dreams
09-02-2011, 01:48 PM
I think that the best thing that could be done for tackle is to remove the kneeling failure and to turn it into a 3-5 second RT maneuver. 3 seconds for a failure, 5 seconds for a success. Automatic base +15 RT to the target - because it's stupid to successfully maneuver something and then have it recover faster than you.

Asha
09-02-2011, 02:03 PM
Until then, can't you just train up to 410.

Warriorbird
09-02-2011, 03:46 PM
I think that the best thing that could be done for tackle is to remove the kneeling failure and to turn it into a 3-5 second RT maneuver. 3 seconds for a failure, 5 seconds for a success. Automatic base +15 RT to the target - because it's stupid to successfully maneuver something and then have it recover faster than you.

This. Likely pure simplicity to code.

Stanley Burrell
09-02-2011, 06:33 PM
Know this:

AIM HIGH ON ZE BIGGIES! AND LOW ON ZE TINIES!

Mohrgan
09-02-2011, 10:02 PM
Know this:

AIM HIGH ON ZE BIGGIES! AND LOW ON ZE TINIES!

"Aim just above ze knees!"

Archigeek
09-03-2011, 02:01 AM
The biggest problem I have is that there is too much penalty for wearing heavy armor. Even with 280 ranks of armor training, I still am often in the negative in full plate, even though unencumbered. This just shouldn't be the case. Maybe I'm bugged? I'll have to do some simple testing with some other warriors.

I think a 5 second RT would make it useful. I don't think multi-tackle is a necessity, though it would be fun. It's the long RT with a success rate that is low relative to other maneuvers that keeps me from using it.

Fallen
09-03-2011, 10:08 AM
A warrior should really advance the discussion on the boards. If a strong enough case is made, Finros could be convinced to act.

Gelston
09-03-2011, 10:25 AM
As far as RT being dropped to 5 seconds, that has been requested quite a few times.

Fallen
09-03-2011, 10:30 AM
I'm sure it has, though i've never seen a GM weigh in on why they continually keep it the same despite numerous CM reviews.

Drew
09-03-2011, 10:33 AM
I think this is a great idea personally.

Donquix
09-03-2011, 01:17 PM
I'm sure it has, though i've never seen a GM weigh in on why they continually keep it the same despite numerous CM reviews.

Because a great knockdown maneuver you can get without spending CM points would be too powerful!!oneoenzomg!

They haven't said that, but it's really the only thing I can think would be their reasoning. The only reason I'd refrain from pointing it out is the argument logically goes to knockdown maneuvers will never be as efficient as just getting a bunch of passives, surge and berserking in most circumstances. But that's more likely to get berserk nerfed than tackle analyzed.