Guild Skills

[JDDZ]

I hate doing guild skills. Years ago when I played more, I never made time to do reps because it was so boring. I play a warrior and rogue mostly, and neither are masters in their guild. This time around I am determined to get my rogue mastered.

With that said, I want to strangle whoever designed the guild system. Such a pain in the ass to do, and such an unattractive part of the game as well. I introduced a friend to gemstone a few months ago, and he got his warrior up to level 22. He really liked it, and then started training in the guild. That's when he told me it was pointless, and because of the guild training, he quit. It was a shame to see him go, but then again I pretty much did the same thing awhile back. It wasn't just because of the guild system, but the redundant gameplay that seems to be the keystone of guild work did have a part.

If simu is so anti AFK scripting (and this I understand for hunting or bot healing) why do they create some systems that almost seems to encourage players to afk script?

[Merala]

I think everyone who has ever played a rogue or a warrior has asked themselves (and maybe everyone else they know) the exact same question.

[Taernath]

I hunt in between guild runs, it prevents me from going insane.

[Middian]

Yes it is insane. I guild skill while resting from a hunt, in order to keep my mind. Switching things up helps as well.

[Roblar]

I find forging to be much much worse. The guild was actually personally welcomed when it came out as warriors sorely needed something to be self sufficient and it fostered community when partner reps were easily available.

I try to help newer members when I can if any need help in advancement.

[JDDZ]

I told my friend I would help his warrior get a few reps here and there. HAH! yeah right, with 2 squares myself 20ish ranks away from mastering, that didn't happen.

[DaCapn]

I told my friend I would help his warrior get a few reps here and there. HAH! yeah right, with 2 squares myself 20ish ranks away from mastering, that didn't happen.

I don't really understand this comment but be that as it may...

Yeah these tedious portions of the game suck. If the exp rewards were higher, that would be awesome. Think about the bounty system which gives exp, coins, AND bounty points. That's quite a bit of reward.

Personally, I just look at it as a scripting challenge. That shit isn't meant to be done manually. Also, I've never been AFK tested by GMs when scripting guild work (sometimes players) but if people have been challenged for forging, I should probably just consider myself lucky (that legendary "you can't pause your script, you have to wait out the RT and watch the messaging" scripting violation comes to mind).

[JDDZ]

I meant that I wasn't going to run 3 characters through guild training, even with scripts, even though I could use 2 at the same time.

[DaCapn]

I meant that I wasn't going to run 3 characters through guild training, even with scripts, even though I could use 2 at the same time.

That's kind of funny. That's exactly how I mastered sweep and plan on mastering other rogue guild skills. I found it to be an awesome and efficient way to master guild skills

[JDDZ]

If he had a rogue instead of warrior, I would have made more use of that.

[Middian]

The most frustrating aspect of the system is when I am trying to master one and I have to stop and learn one point in another before i can continue doing the first skill! (roar)

[JDDZ]

Middian, we should hammer out some ranks together.

[Middian]

im here all day let me know!

[Loyrl]

Leveling guild skills wasn't so bad in GS3 because there were a ton of people around that would help. Now, I don't think I would bother except for a few main skills that I would actually use.

[Mobius1]

Man, you don't want to get me started on this. It's the main reason I quit playing.

In the end, you should consider yourself lucky that there even are any guild skills besides lockpick mastery, because Simu came THIS close to completely removing them.

The guild (at least the rogue's guild...I never played a warrior), used to be filled with much more people, and was actually one of the most fun things in the game, for many of us, thanks to the community it created. My best friendships in the game were made thanks to the guild.

If you were around before GS4, you'd probably understand the guild a little more, because back then, it was a necessary component for most rogues. I know I personally would have been hurting big time if I didn't have sweep and/or cheapshots to hunt with.

But right before GS4 came out, they announced that they were going to remove most of the skills from the guild, and turn them into CM skills, instead. But due to such a large number of complaints (Many of us even quit, or threatened to quit, in protest), they decided to keep the skills AND add them to the CM list, as a compromise.

Of course, it all sounded well and good, at the time, but the real problem turned out to be with things like the ambush revamp with DS pushdown, smastery, archery revamp, etc. Pretty much a combination of many things, made most of the guild skills pretty useless, thus removing most incentive to train in them. Now the only guild skill I ever bother using, really, is stun maneuvers (I don't pick.).

So indirectly, Simu accomplished what they had planned, in making the guild skills go bye bye. Sadly, it also made one of the best communities in the game, go bye bye. That's why you don't see Midgar around anymore.

[Stry]

So what else would you do to fix this or make it better? Guildskills still trump the CMAN versions to a degree.

Since GSIII-

For Rogues they've added Lockmastery, which is awesome to make your own picks eventually, etc.

Warriors now have their armor resistance stuff. A small upgrade but still very effective and useful.

I'm curious if people have ideas about how to better these guild skills/grinds overall.

[Buckwheet]

So what else would you do to fix this or make it better? Guildskills still trump the CMAN versions to a degree.

Since GSIII-

For Rogues they've added Lockmastery, which is awesome to make your own picks eventually, etc.

Warriors now have their armor resistance stuff. A small upgrade but still very effective and useful.

I'm curious if people have ideas about how to better these guild skills/grinds overall.

I would say make everything rep based more like DR. So you can actually use them more during your play time with other people.

Want to get a rep with tackle? Try and tackle something. Make it like paladin/warrior bonding.

[DaCapn]

So what else would you do to fix this or make it better? Guildskills still trump the CMAN versions to a degree.

Since GSIII-

For Rogues they've added Lockmastery, which is awesome to make your own picks eventually, etc.

Warriors now have their armor resistance stuff. A small upgrade but still very effective and useful.

I'm curious if people have ideas about how to better these guild skills/grinds overall.

Armor resistances are a part of the armor specialization mechanics. The supplies are just sold at the guild. Look at you giving it more credit than it deserves.

From the rogue perspective at least, I think guilds would be way better if you had a pool of options rather than a fixed list of skills. Have 5 skills you can train in (as currently possible). 2-3 slots are for cmans and you choose the ones you want from your professions list. The guild tasks are basic: use it in the field, do something with a footpad, and the basic guild chores. The other slots are the special guild skills. In a system like this (for rogues at least) you won't get stuck with relatively useless offensive cmans and you won't have LM sitting there like a stain if you don't pick locks.

Granted, my suggestion doesn't translate well for non-combat cmans (which is basically all I'm interested in, personally) but if working on guild tasks got me ranks of smastery instead of subdue, I would be all over it all the time.

Also, like I said, more exp would be good but I don't think that is necessarily the issue. I think it has more to do with the fact that you have to do tedious things to get shit you don't use. In a way it's a metaphor for GS entirely.

[audioserf]

Guild skills, forging, alchemy: Things I don't ever plan on doing in GSIV. Simu has managed to create timesinks within a game which is already a timesink; with that you have to at least be a little imperssed.

[Warriorbird]

Blame Tsoran.

[Mobius1]

Blame Tsoran.

Eh? I haven't been around much in the last couple years, but I remember Tsoran being one of the greatest proponents of saving the guild.

Basically, I think the most fundamental guild fix, would be to simply make the skills more worth the effort.

They've been giving rogues and warriors plenty of attention, just none of it through the guild, but instead through CM skills.

I think they just need to do a revamp of most of the skills, and make them more useful, instead of adding all these new CM skills. For example, Divert could have easily been made a gambits skill, and so forth.

Hell, I could probably make a huge list just off the top of my head, of easy improvements to the guild skills.

I guess this leads me to another question, though. What is the current GM in charge of rogues like? I could start pushing for guild improvements in my typical fashion, and it might even give me more incentive to start playing again....but only if there's hope that our GM would be open to changes.

[Warriorbird]

Yes. "Saving the guild." is what put us in the stupid partner situation. The code is often ridiculously bad. We could've had a broader maneuver list and less stupid grinding. Instead it inspired a bunch more stupid crap for other professions.

[JDDZ]

I was around during gemstone III and the start of the guilds. At the time I was splitting my time between my warrior, rogue, wizard, and then a paladin for awhile. I missed all that time when more people were in the guild because I was too bored with it, now I regret it. Stunmans is easy enough, I'm tearing through that.

[Kaerika]

Thought I'd share my little story about this topic. In 2008 or so, I came back to GS after about a decade. I had sold my character when I left, so I rolled up Kaerika (a rogue). I played til I hit level 15; I was so excited to join the guild. After joining, I quit GS two days later. All the grindy guild bullshit was too much for me.

I've been back a month or two now... with my expectations on the guild more realistic, it hasn't been so bad. The footpad training reps and guild chores are an absolute bore, though. I find them so awful that all I'm learning is gambits and lock mastery.

I play 100% manual, so I don't use scripts for any of the bullshit. How someone could master stun moves without scripts, I've no idea.

Those tasks don't even make sense; interacting with NPCs feels awful. Why would you make the player basically just waste time with them to advance? The social interactions are, at least for me, what makes Gemstone special.

[Mobius1]

Yes. "Saving the guild." is what put us in the stupid partner situation. The code is often ridiculously bad. We could've had a broader maneuver list and less stupid grinding. Instead it inspired a bunch more stupid crap for other professions.

I'm still not quite sure what you mean, nor why Tsoran is in any way to blame.



I've been back a month or two now... with my expectations on the guild more realistic, it hasn't been so bad. The footpad training reps and guild chores are an absolute bore, though. I find them so awful that all I'm learning is gambits and lock mastery.

I play 100% manual, so I don't use scripts for any of the bullshit. How someone could master stun moves without scripts, I've no idea.

Those tasks don't even make sense; interacting with NPCs feels awful. Why would you make the player basically just waste time with them to advance? The social interactions are, at least for me, what makes Gemstone special.

The funny thing, is Stun maneuvers was like 10x as hard as it is now, when I mastered it.

But again, the guild was a much better place, before. Sure it had its tedium (much of which was made substantially easier, with stun maneuvers being changed, gld stance being introduced, the ability to train multiple skills at once, etc..), but it wasn't such a big deal, for most people, because it had such a great community (Until Tsin showed up!).

Also, with the wall, it forced you to not be able to grind too much, and go get XP first (which you could actually get from the guild, if you wanted, though, by giving reps.), or if you were high enough level to not be affected by the wall, then the requirement for each rank was much lower, making it easier.

Personally, back then, I spent most of my playing time in the guild, just to help people out, and it was very enjoyable for me. But now, if I try to do that, I'll be standing around doing nothing 95% of the time, since the guild is so dead. It's just not fun anymore, with so few training these days.

Believe me, the guild would be a LOT more fun, if people had more incentive to train there, and it wasn't so damn empty. Simu went and ruined some of the best RP in their game, in favor of game mechanics.

[Tsoran]

Not much I can add to this other than what Mobius1 (Midgar?) already said.

Yes, if you want to blame me for the guild skills still being around to drive you crazy with their tedium, go ahead. I'm very proud of that, btw. Simu wanted the guilds to go away, or at least most of the guild skills, and I was very much opposed to that, because, as Midgar said, the guilds were one of the most social organizations in the game. I feared that removing the skills would destroy that.

And that's exactly what happened.

Although they didn't remove the skills per se, the mechanics changes rendered them, while not quite worthless, merely a shadow of their former selves. They used to be virtually mandatory for successful rogues. After the change they were moderately useful, at best, for some of them, and others were pathetic.

Combined with a declining population, the guilds became ghost towns. That, in turn, made the reps so much harder AND made them more boring.

Yup, they're tedious. But then what part of the game isn't? For that matter, almost all parts of any MMORPG can be considered grinding, no? (There are some notable exceptions, of course.)

The really sad part is that they came out with guild skill later that were much, much harder and more tedious.

Lock Mastery set a new standard for tedium. It was by far the hardest guild skill ever.

Right up until Alchemy came out.

At least Lock Mastery was incredibly useful. What you got for all that work was worth it. Alchemy, well, I had been waiting for years for guild skills for my pures. "Be care what you ask for" comes to mind. I never managed more than a few ranks of alchemy.

One of the best parts of GSIII was the camaraderie of helping people with guild reps. The guild was a lot of fun when there were actually people to play with in it. Now, not so much.

[DaCapn]

"I mapped out the entire game because there were no official maps ever released. But those guild skills... those were tedious..."

[Warriorbird]

Not much I can add to this other than what Mobius1 (Midgar?) already said.

Yes, if you want to blame me for the guild skills still being around to drive you crazy with their tedium, go ahead. I'm very proud of that, btw. Simu wanted the guilds to go away, or at least most of the guild skills, and I was very much opposed to that, because, as Midgar said, the guilds were one of the most social organizations in the game. I feared that removing the skills would destroy that.

And that's exactly what happened.

Although they didn't remove the skills per se, the mechanics changes rendered them, while not quite worthless, merely a shadow of their former selves. They used to be virtually mandatory for successful rogues. After the change they were moderately useful, at best, for some of them, and others were pathetic.

Combined with a declining population, the guilds became ghost towns. That, in turn, made the reps so much harder AND made them more boring.

Yup, they're tedious. But then what part of the game isn't? For that matter, almost all parts of any MMORPG can be considered grinding, no? (There are some notable exceptions, of course.)

The really sad part is that they came out with guild skill later that were much, much harder and more tedious.

Lock Mastery set a new standard for tedium. It was by far the hardest guild skill ever.

Right up until Alchemy came out.

At least Lock Mastery was incredibly useful. What you got for all that work was worth it. Alchemy, well, I had been waiting for years for guild skills for my pures. "Be care what you ask for" comes to mind. I never managed more than a few ranks of alchemy.

One of the best parts of GSIII was the camaraderie of helping people with guild reps. The guild was a lot of fun when there were actually people to play with in it. Now, not so much.

Some of us got the sense that the world was changing.

You stood in the way of their removal for a more robust maneuver list when Simu was prepared to do it. Now in a different environment they actually discourage people. I definitely agree that what followed was worse.

Alternate professional activities that involved teaming up rather than reliance were proposed.

What remained could have been skills that weren't reliant on other players to work. Then the idea came in that people somehow loved this sort of madness.

I do see your point about socialization, but I think what did far more damage there were things like player shops and add on based social networks.

I'd love to see the trouble with guild skills addressed. They're been firmly established as a paradigm however. Alchemy is awful. At the least it does not chain players to hunting for people when not enough people exist.

I'd still love to see ideas in which professions could team up, rather than be reliant on each other for grinding. I love the Oceans 11 style heist system in DR for that very reason.

[Tsoran]

"I mapped out the entire game because there were no official maps ever released. But those guild skills... those were tedious..."

LOL

Good point. But at least the maps were useful, and the process of mapping was often ::cough:: challenging.

I mapped OTF when Tsoran was about level 90 and the critters were about level 150, give or take. (It helped to have a friend tag along -- a level 280ish empath.)

To be fair, when I started making maps, GS was a heck of a lot smaller. Yes, I cursed Simutronics, their GMs, their families, and their pets every time they added new areas. :)

[Asha]

I got my first warning yesterday for AFK script fletching. I just can't grasp how guild skills, fletching etc etc are supposed to be fun and worst of all being at your keyboard is enforced!
Those are the only things I feel shouldn't be policed when scripting because it's just so rediculously fucking retarded boring.

[Tsoran]

You stood in the way of their removal for a more robust maneuver list when Simu was prepared to do it.

...

What remained could have been skills that weren't reliant on other players to work.

I agree with all that you say, but there's a part I think you're leaving out.

The reason I opposed their plan was because they had absolutely no plan for the skills that would replace the combat skills they were removing.

If you remember, when they announced their grand plan, they also said "Oh, and the by the way, after we remove all four of your (rogue) combat skills, do you have any idea what we should replace them with? We've got nothing."

It may have been different on the warrior side, but for the rogues they had absolutely no ideas for new skills.

I dunno about you, but my experience with Simu was that development projects tend to fall just a wee bit behind schedule sometimes. In this case, they didn't even have any ideas of what they wanted to do, let alone a plan and schedule for how to do it. Had there been a plan for replacement skills I may have been apprehensive about the change, but I wouldn't have opposed it. Or I wouldn't have opposed it as vehemently as I did. But they didn't even have an idea for a single replacement skill.

They've known what they've wanted to do with Monks for over a decade. Can you imagine how long it would take to implement something when they have no idea what they want to do?

[Warriorbird]

I agree with all that you say, but there's a part I think you're leaving out.

The reason I opposed their plan was because they had absolutely no plan for the skills that would replace the combat skills they were removing.

If you remember, when they announced their grand plan, they also said "Oh, and the by the way, after we remove all four of your (rogue) combat skills, do you have any idea what we should replace them with? We've got nothing."

It may have been different on the warrior side, but for the rogues they had absolutely no ideas for new skills.

I dunno about you, but my experience with Simu was that development projects tend to fall just a wee bit behind schedule sometimes. In this case, they didn't even have any ideas of what they wanted to do, let alone a plan and schedule for how to do it. Had there been a plan for replacement skills I may have been apprehensive about the change, but I wouldn't have opposed it. Or I wouldn't have opposed it as vehemently as I did. But they didn't even have an idea for a single replacement skill.

They've known what they've wanted to do with Monks for over a decade. Can you imagine how long it would take to implement something when they have no idea what they want to do?

It makes a bit more sense, I suppose. What was said to me, warrior wise, was that they'd considered a more robust implementation of pugilism/means for further inter guild competition as the first stab at a replacement. I actually really liked that idea and had always assumed they'd consider something like it for Rogues.

I also was told we'd get more maneuver access for further customization if they were removed.

It is one of the aspects of the maneuvers I do like. They do differentiate paths. They also don't add extra grinds for full professional functionality.

[Tsoran]

I got my first warning yesterday for AFK script fletching. I just can't grasp how guild skills, fletching etc etc are supposed to be fun and worst of all being at your keyboard is enforced!
Those are the only things I feel shouldn't be policed when scripting because it's just so rediculously fucking retarded boring.


Guild skills WERE fun, at least some of them, at least some of the time.

You had to go hunt.

You had to do stuff with other players.

Doing stuff with other players used to be the fun part of that. Now it's dreaded, and for good reason.

Tedious and repetitive? You betcha. But that's in the nature of a game like this, especially when you want to keep people playing for years.

Got a way to make something keep your interest for years and years WITHOUT grinding away at stuff in a tedious manner? Please do tell, because that can make me millions. I could create the next WoW. (Even the best part of WoW -- doing those big progression raids with a bunch of good friends -- gets to be a grind once the novelty wears off and you've mastered the strategies.)

Grinding away at stuff where there's no interaction with people (or even with critters) can be very boring. It's funny you mention fletching -- of all the crafting skills, it's by far and away the best of the bunch. You make something useful and you can do it while interacting with other people.

Try mastering forging -- fletching will seem like a Roman orgy by comparison. With forging, you get to do all that tedium while locked away in a room where you're forced to be alone, and you're subjected to RTs of up to 9 minutes. Not only are you isolated but you can't even converse with people on the amunet because of the RT. (The RTs using materials you typically use for training aren't quite that long, but they're still huge.)

Fletching's the *good* crafting skill. The others aren't even close.

[Tsoran]

It makes a bit more sense, I suppose. What was said to me, warrior wise, was that they'd considered a more robust implementation of pugilism/means for further inter guild competition as the first stab at a replacement. I actually really liked that idea and had always assumed they'd consider something like it for Rogues.

Yeah, that doesn't sound bad at all.

At the time, the players of rogues generally felt that GemStone was a game where most of the development effort was going to the warriors and rogues were being not just ignored, but being downtweaked. It wasn't just jealousy, however -- nobody would argue that warriors didn't NEED it, or that rogues weren't in a really good place. As GS grew over the years, warriors grew more and more disadvantaged at higher levels. As a profession, they needed a lot of work.

But from a rogue's perspective, this was, "WTF??? We're giving up all our combat skills so that warriors can get a bunch of new CMs that 1) Rogues aren't allowed to train in, and B) even if we could, they cost too much for rogues to train in??? And you want us to LIKE this idea???????"

Even ignoring that they had an idea for what to replace the warrior skills with, the whole CML concept was a lot more appealing to warriors than to rogues. For warriors, it was like a spell list for squares. For rogues, it was like being turned into a semi -- partial, expensive access to the spell list. Except that with real semis, the loss of spells is made up for in increased manual combat skills. In this case, the warrior profession had better CML and better combat skills. Not counting the non-combat lockpicking and stealing skills, rogues' only advantage was stalking. That was being nerfed too. The whole thing was just lose-lose-lose from a rogue perspective.

I think this was when I decided that it's better to join them than fight them. I rolled up a warrior.

[Warriorbird]

Yeah, that doesn't sound bad at all.

At the time, the players of rogues generally felt that GemStone was a game where most of the development effort was going to the warriors and rogues were being not just ignored, but being downtweaked. It wasn't just jealousy, however -- nobody would argue that warriors didn't NEED it, or that rogues weren't in a really good place. As GS grew over the years, warriors grew more and more disadvantaged at higher levels. As a profession, they needed a lot of work.

But from a rogue's perspective, this was, "WTF??? We're giving up all our combat skills so that warriors can get a bunch of new CMs that 1) Rogues aren't allowed to train in, and B) even if we could, they cost too much for rogues to train in??? And you want us to LIKE this idea???????"

Even ignoring that they had an idea for what to replace the warrior skills with, the whole CML concept was a lot more appealing to warriors than to rogues. For warriors, it was like a spell list for squares. For rogues, it was like being turned into a semi -- partial, expensive access to the spell list. Except that with real semis, the loss of spells is made up for in increased manual combat skills. In this case, the warrior profession had better CML and better combat skills. Not counting the non-combat lockpicking and stealing skills, rogues' only advantage was stalking. That was being nerfed too. The whole thing was just lose-lose-lose from a rogue perspective.

I think this was when I decided that it's better to join them than fight them. I rolled up a warrior.

I do agree that it was pretty unbalanced to begin with. I'm glad some decent Rogue ones (Vanish and so on) got added. I still wish GS Rogues had more DR Thief tricks. Still like a night and day difference in added tools (and DR Thieves don't need to do LFM to get that stuff).

[Tsoran]

I do agree that it was pretty unbalanced to begin with. I'm glad some decent Rogue ones (Vanish and so on) got added.

Yup, as the years went by it certainly got a lot better from a mechanical perspective. I still miss the interactions with other guild members, however.

[Stry]

I do agree that it was pretty unbalanced to begin with. I'm glad some decent Rogue ones (Vanish and so on) got added. I still wish GS Rogues had more DR Thief tricks. Still like a night and day difference in added tools (and DR Thieves don't need to do LFM to get that stuff).

I only tried DR for like a week or two a long long time ago. How do those tricks work?

and... LFM? I'm tired.

[Warriorbird]

I only tried DR for like a week or two a long long time ago. How do those tricks work?

and... LFM? I'm tired.

Lock Fucking Mastery.

Most of the DR stuff is based on boosting your discipline stat (you can raise stats), your reputation as a thief, and gaining levels.

[Stry]

Lock Fucking Mastery.

Most of the DR stuff is based on boosting your discipline stat (you can raise stats), your reputation as a thief, and gaining levels.

Awesome. I should have guessed.

Do DR thieves get anything cool that Gambits doesn't provide GS rogues?

[Mobius1]

I personally also fought tooth and nail to keep the skills in the guild.

I don't remember a single promise for rogues other than the promise that the guild skills were going to be removed no matter what, and that the decision was FINAL.

I understand that some people disliked the idea of being forced to rely on others in order to progress, but it was a necessary thing in order to make the rogue guild function properly. This is an RP based game, and in my opinion needs MORE things like this, not less.

Sadly, I'm finding that the current generation of Gemstone is too infected with WoW syndrome. If you disagree, then how the hell did things like Shattered come about? Not that I'm saying it doesn't have its merits, but the truth is, that the spirit of Gemstone is changing, and I think it's becoming too mechanical and less RP oriented.

Sorry, I guess I'm rambling a bit, so back to the point. increase XP gains in the guild, for both people training, and those giving reps. Make the guild centers XP nodes. Then lastly, and most importantly, make the guild skills key skills for a rogue - the main question here being, should the current skills, or at least some of them, simply be revamped, or perhaps replaced altogether?

EDIT: Also, the agreement the GM's came to, ended up being that the guild skills would be available from both the guild and the CM list (the guild variants being slightly more powerful.), allowing those that didn't wish to go through the guild, to get them. I actually do agree with this, even today. This was never the problem with the guild, and was a good compromise. It was simply the fact that other changes were made, that made those skills pretty much useless, thus giving people little incentive to train in them at the guild OR learn them from the CM list.

~Midgar

[JDDZ]

I just discovered you must be logged in for your window "CD" to expire. It's the stupid BS like that, which makes it tougher to make progress. Nevermind the reps themselves are tedious, the entire program code is tedious.

As much as I have complained about the guild in recent posts, I do have fun with the comradery when there are actually people there. I like seeing a different variety of rogues and warriors collected in the same room. IMO, cutting stuff like teaching reps from 16 or 17 to a hard cap of 10 would make this tasks easier to deal with.

[Mobius1]

I just discovered you must be logged in for your window "CD" to expire. It's the stupid BS like that, which makes it tougher to make progress. Nevermind the reps themselves are tedious, the entire program code is tedious.


Well, ideally, tedium level should be comparable to the value of the skill. Unfortunately, that's pretty much laughable, anymore.

I certainly completely understand why people are complaining, and it's most definitely warranted.

The tedium level to reward ratio is seriously off.

Granted, your problem with windows, is more an issue because the guild is a ghost town. Before, it was a good opportunity to socialize and/or help others out (or you could always run to Icemule or Solhaven, lol).

[Brad]

This thread brought back some memories of the Rogue Guild before I left and how there was stuff to do. Now that it's a decade later and I'm wanting to learn sweep, there is no one around. Maybe they could make the guilds like how FWI is, where you can visit from anywhere before going back to your individual locale? That'd still leave usefulness issues, but it'd be a start I'd think.

[Mobius1]

Hmm, a rather interesting thought, actually. I'm just trying to think how it could be properly implemented...

[JDDZ]

That is a great idea, Brad. Don't change the design of the guilds, have a portal or some damn thing in each one that would bring you to a common guild area where you could meet people regardless of which town you are in.

[Mobius1]

Man, you guys are getting me motivated to put on my forum warrior headband once again, and get to work on the officials, lol.

[Tsoran]

It was simply the fact that other changes were made, that made those skills pretty much useless, thus giving people little incentive to train in them at the guild OR learn them from the CM list.

~Midgar

I have to partially disagree. Some of the rogue skills are pretty darn useful. Just not the same ones as before. And I'm sure other rogues with different playing styles might think that other skills are useful.

Sweep used to be essential for a rogue. Have it, or die. Those were your choices, pretty much. For my two rogues it's now useless.

Stun maneuvers is still very useful, AND it's much, much easier to train in. Stunman is the new Sweep.

LFM (and, oddly, that acronym is perfectly acceptable on the officials -- go figure) is probably the best guild skill ever, in any guild. Useless if you don't pick, of course, but unbelievably uber if you do.

Gambits can be really useful in certain situations, such as being knocked down while still hidden.

Sweep, subdue, and cheapshot I have no use for anymore, but maybe that's just me not being creative enough.

[Kaerika]

Gotta say, I really like that idea.

Edit: For clarification, the idea of a single common guild area.

[Mobius1]

Well, yeah, stun maneuvers is certainly useful, but it doesn't require a training partner, which doesn't help the guild community any.

I guess gambits is the exception, but that's not enough.

[Tsoran]

This thread brought back some memories of the Rogue Guild before I left and how there was stuff to do. Now that it's a decade later and I'm wanting to learn sweep, there is no one around. Maybe they could make the guilds like how FWI is, where you can visit from anywhere before going back to your individual locale? That'd still leave usefulness issues, but it'd be a start I'd think.

That is an absolutely awesome idea.

The only drawback to it is that perhaps, with the current reduced population, it might be better to have guildies congregating in the normal town meeting spots with everyone else.

[Mobius1]

Gotta say, I really like that idea.

Edit: For clarification, the idea of a single common guild area.

Well, then someone come up with a good RP excuse, lol.

The guild stole magical artifacts, that allow teleportation to and from some ancient underground (Noded!) location?

But this alone is not enough. The skills themselves need a revamp (suggestions on this would be appreciated!).

[AnticorRifling]

Guild dues are now, in part, being used to pay for chrono mages to keep portals open to our new centralized training centers.

[JDDZ]

Someone with good vocabulary and articulates their ideas well should bring this idea to the official forums.

[Kaerika]

Guild dues are now, in part, being used to pay for chrono mages to keep portals open to our new centralized training centers.

This is a good idea. Totally works. They could even raise guild dues a bit to cover the cost.

Maybe a unified guild would actually make it a place to hang out, instead of a place to get tasks from the NPCs.

[Fallen]

This is a good idea. Totally works. They could even raise guild dues a bit to cover the cost.

Maybe a unified guild would actually make it a place to hang out, instead of a place to get tasks from the NPCs.

This idea has been discussed for use as a spell, for guilds, for rare items, etc. Simu seems pretty opposed to the idea outside of a merchant setting. They likely believe it would cut into their Premium profits. Maybe make it a premium only perk of the guilds. I know that will be an unpopular idea, but it makes sense in a way.

[Kaerika]

This idea has been discussed for use as a spell, for guilds, for rare items, etc. Simu seems pretty opposed to the idea outside of a merchant setting. They likely believe it would cut into their Premium profits. Maybe make it a premium only perk of the guilds. I know that will be an unpopular idea, but it makes sense in a way.

Is enough of the player base premium for that to solve the problem? My perspective is skewed, since I'm not.

Either way, that doesn't work. If we set up some sort of central guild hall, the local ones need to go away. The goal is to get people together in one spot, so if you designate a spot and then tell some people they can't go there... it doesn't do anything for anyone.

[Mobius1]

This idea has been discussed for use as a spell, for guilds, for rare items, etc. Simu seems pretty opposed to the idea outside of a merchant setting. They likely believe it would cut into their Premium profits. Maybe make it a premium only perk of the guilds. I know that will be an unpopular idea, but it makes sense in a way.

Except that that defeats the whole purpose, which is to gather as many people as possible to the guilds.

Though, now that I think about it, the Warrior's Guild would also need some excuse, lol (sorry warriors, I only care about this from a rogue's perspective :P).



Either way, that doesn't work. If we set up some sort of central guild hall, the local ones need to go away.

I don't agree with this. I see no need to remove the current guilds. Just make it so there's some sort of portal or item, that teleports you to a central location, which could exist somewhere inside each guild. Perhaps, at most, a few changes could be made to the guild layouts.

[AnticorRifling]

This idea has been discussed for use as a spell, for guilds, for rare items, etc. Simu seems pretty opposed to the idea outside of a merchant setting. They likely believe it would cut into their Premium profits. Maybe make it a premium only perk of the guilds. I know that will be an unpopular idea, but it makes sense in a way.

If it were me I'd set it up so there's a training room that has the required devices for reps and floor space for partner work but no task masters. Basically a portal like what you're used to seeing in WoW you see a wavy image of the (describe common training room here). Go portal and boom you're in that room, you can only port back to where you came from (might have to rent/buy a trinket/bracelet/id tag/something from say landing guild so you return there when finished). Can't ring out, can't sign of darkness out, can't voln out, etc. Do your group work, go back to your town guild to turn in tasks, etc.

Remove the option for travel abuse and let it be just to gather guild members together for promotions and reps.

[Lemons]

This idea has been discussed for use as a spell, for guilds, for rare items, etc. Simu seems pretty opposed to the idea outside of a merchant setting. They likely believe it would cut into their Premium profits. Maybe make it a premium only perk of the guilds. I know that will be an unpopular idea, but it makes sense in a way.

They are in the process of building all the guilds on FWI.

-c

[Fallen]

Is enough of the player base premium for that to solve the problem? My perspective is skewed, since I'm not.

Either way, that doesn't work. If we set up some sort of central guild hall, the local ones need to go away. The goal is to get people together in one spot, so if you designate a spot and then tell some people they can't go there... it doesn't do anything for anyone.

I think that more people would sign up for premium if shared guild halls were a perk, and with added planning on the boards for "guild nights", the mechanic would be effective at addressing the problem. That being said, I wouldn't argue against a communal training area being open to everyone, I just don't think Simu would go for it.

[Mobius1]

If it were me I'd set it up so there's a training room that has the required devices for reps and floor space for partner work but no task masters. Basically a portal like what you're used to seeing in WoW you see a wavy image of the (describe common training room here). Go portal and boom you're in that room, you can only port back to where you came from (might have to rent/buy a trinket/bracelet/id tag/something from say landing guild so you return there when finished). Can't ring out, can't sign of darkness out, can't voln out, etc. Do your group work, go back to your town guild to turn in tasks, etc.

Remove the option for travel abuse and let it be just to gather guild members together for promotions and reps.

Exactly what I was thinking.


I think that more people would sign up for premium if shared guild halls were a perk, and with added planning on the boards for "guild nights", the mechanic would be effective at addressing the problem. That being said, I wouldn't argue against a communal training area being open to everyone, I just don't think Simu would go for it.

I just don't think this would be good enough. I personally will never pay for Premium, no matter how much I love the guild. You shouldn't have to pay real money to be able to progress through the guild properly, that is wrong on too many levels.

[AnticorRifling]

I think that more people would sign up for premium if shared guild halls were a perk, and with added planning on the boards for "guild nights", the mechanic would be effective at addressing the problem. That being said, I wouldn't argue against a communal training area being open to everyone, I just don't think Simu would go for it.

Make the use of the common grounds free for premium subscriptions and charge (in game silvers) for access to them from regular subscriptions.

If you access the common training area via FWI no cost to pick up your ID tag to walk thru the portal. If you access it from a town guild the tag costs you 50k and is good for 2 hours.

[Donquix]

if possible put in some tech that wouldn't allow you to exchange items/silvers (no dropping either) or cast spells at other players in the guildhall.

now it doesn't impede on IFW perks, outside of the intended being a unified guild training facility.

[Mobius1]

Again, this damn game is becoming too mechanically oriented. Simu should be thrilled about reviving one of the best RP communities their game has ever seen, and not simply about making more money off premium accounts. Hell, accomplishing this, in itself, would earn them more money, since they'd probably have more subscribers, myself included.

I personally am STRONGLY against adding any kind of fee, if this type of thing were implemented.

EDIT: Let me rephrase that. I am completely against this idea entirely, unless it is completely free for ALL guild members to access. Sure, it would be helpful for those that could pay for it, but those that couldn't, would be screwed, very possibly making the guild even HARDER for them.

[AnticorRifling]

if possible put in some tech that wouldn't allow you to exchange items/silvers (no dropping either) or cast spells at other players in the guildhall.

now it doesn't impede on IFW perks, outside of the intended being a unified guild training facility.

That wouldn't be too rough I don't think. Basically a major sanct / merchant type room where everything but guild skills and talk/thought/whisper is "You can't do that here." Put a sign on the wall that says DA RULES: In order to keep this facility free from obstruction and so that it remains pure for it's intended use of guild solidarity through training guild members WILL refrain from:

1) Don't hand people shit
2) Keep shit off the ground
3) Something something dark side

[AnticorRifling]

Again, this damn game is becoming too mechanically oriented. Simu should be thrilled about reviving one of the best RP communities their game has ever seen, and not simply about making more money off premium accounts. Hell, accomplishing this, in itself, would earn them more money, since they'd probably have more subscribers, myself included.

I personally am STRONGLY against adding any kind of fee, if this type of thing were implemented.

Gym membership X per month, wanna use the classes/pool pass that's extra. BOOSH.

I'm with you I'd rather it just be added but seeing as it could be a benefit granted to the higher paid subscription I'd rather pay a nominal silvers fee to have access rather than lose out on it all together.

[Mobius1]

In this regard, I think the best compromise I can think of, would be to perhaps add some type of quest in order to gain an item, which allows you to utilize the portal (an item that lasts forever, so you'd only have to do it once.). But premium members could get there from FWI or whatever.

[Mobius1]

Here's an idea I'm thinking of, for sweep:

Make it so that as you get more ranks, you learn a AoE sweep, that is not targeted, and sweeps multiple targets in the room. The more ranks you have, the more targets you can hit.

Then reduce the targeted sweep to 3 seconds RT, and have the open sweep be higher (Though it couldn't be too high or it would be pointless.).

Just an idea off the top of my head, but I'm trying to think of things that may make the skills useful, without too much revamp.

[Warriorbird]

This thread brought back some memories of the Rogue Guild before I left and how there was stuff to do. Now that it's a decade later and I'm wanting to learn sweep, there is no one around. Maybe they could make the guilds like how FWI is, where you can visit from anywhere before going back to your individual locale? That'd still leave usefulness issues, but it'd be a start I'd think.

Fantastic idea.

[Stry]

AOE sweep? That's some long leg!

http://spoiler.temple-of-lore.com/images/NestOfVipers/Leg%20Sweep.jpg

[Mobius1]

AOE sweep? That's some long leg!


Well, it's not as if you'd be doing it in ONE sweep! It would be like a flurry of sweeps? lol

[Stry]

http://edgruberman.files.wordpress.com/2010/01/sweep-the-leg-large.jpg

Oh wait. One more.

Yay cat!

http://www.roflcat.com/images/cats/Sweep_Leg_Johnny.jpg

[Mobius1]

Ok, more ideas:

I have 2 ideas for subdue, or perhaps a combination of BOTH.

1)Make it so that a successful subdue will not remove you from hiding.
2)Make it ranged. I.E. you throw something at them (thus giving us a way to knock flying creatures to the ground.).

As for cheapshot, my idea is rather simple. Make it so that the duration for many, if not all of them, are substantially longer. Throatchop, for example, should last 1-2 minutes.

Also, make kneebash only 3 sec RT.

[Stry]

Don't mind me and the flying cat picures. I'm bored at work.

I do think having functioning rogues/warrior guilds on FWI will be nice when it happens. As far as having a Chronomage portal that the guilds buy so that members can work together in a 'training room' cross realm?

I'm not sure it would fly since they'd rather encourage Premium subscriptions, but it doesn't hurt to post the idea certainly.

Perhaps having the ability to have/buy a ticket to the FWI guild for a low silver fee? That might be a compromise people would be willing to go with?

I'd like to see if anyone does post this idea. It's certainly a good way to help bring the guilds back to being a bit more active.

[Stry]

1)Make it so that a successful subdue will not remove you from hiding.


Subdue does work with silent strike, btw. As do some other cmans, like Cutthroat.

[Donquix]

Well, it's not as if you'd be doing it in ONE sweep! It would be like a flurry of sweeps? lol

at 35 ranks, you can sweep the same target multiple times.

msweep

[Mobius1]

at 35 ranks, you can sweep the same target multiple times.

msweep

Well, that wouldn't make sense, since once they're prone, you couldn't logically sweep them again, lol.

But against multiple targets, why not?

[Mobius1]

Another idea of mine, is to make it so that sweep breaks their legs, so they are stuck prone.

EDIT: of course, NOT in combination with my other idea. This is a completely separate idea, though not as preferable to me, as the AoE sweep idea.

[Brad]

For a common area, maybe it would just be some kind of projection of the character? Implementation wise, they'd just show up without their equipment, etc, if there are issues with some kind of meeting like that. The Warrior Guild could receive a magical device from some local magical types as thanks for their hard work defending stuff, and the Rogues steal a couple en route.

And as far as sweep, maybe the more ranks you have the greater your chance of sweeping a second enemy in the area after your first sweep? Or hidden sweeps?

[Mobius1]

Or hidden sweeps?

That's also a possibility. Only problem is that I think that type of thing is better suited for subdue (though someone mentioned that you already can, anyways.).

Basically, what my intent is, is not to make the skills too powerful. What I'd simply like to see, is people using a guild skill (that requires partner reps to increase, so stunman doesn't count.), at least once or twice in a hunt. Give them just enough utility, that most rogues would like to have them at their disposal, and would be willing to train in them.

Also, as I brought out earlier, I think it would also help if the guild was a better source of XP, and had a XP node. That way, people would be more willing to train and/or help others train, for the XP reward. Also, people would be more willing to go there to rest after a hunt, thus forming a stronger community.

[DaCapn]

I thought it was a great idea to open up the cman list more and let you choose things that are good for your character. The main reason the rogue guild tedium sucks is that a good portion of the skills are about as useful as 502. Why not get some that you DO like instead?

A cross-realm training hall for guilds would be so awesome. And yeah, noded would be really cool.

The only thing is... why does everyone need to scramble together to pre-nerf something that wouldn't be particularly abusive? A merchant loophole within a profession guild would never be as good as FWI access (there are way more benefits to premium accounts than this). It wouldn't be full transport and it would, on occasion, limit the irritation of merchanting across realms. As-is, transportation in GS is a "set it and forget it" model.

[Mobius1]

Well, I certainly love the idea of a central location, but it still doesn't fix the fundamental guild issues.

If people had incentive to train in the guild, something like this would be mere icing on the cake. Eating icing by itself, would just make you sick to your stomach.

And hell, no matter what the motives behind changing the guild skills might be, it does not change the fact that there is no excuse for having useless skills. It's only fair to expect them to be useful. Otherwise, why even have them at all?

I wish they'd stop adding all these damn skills to the CM list, and instead utilize the guild for a change, since it's a perfect avenue for them to do so, and also serves as a wonderful RP tool.

[Warriorbird]

Well, I certainly love the idea of a central location, but it still doesn't fix the fundamental guild issues.

If people had incentive to train in the guild, something like this would be mere icing on the cake. Eating icing by itself, would just make you sick to your stomach.

And hell, no matter what the motives behind changing the guild skills might be, it does not change the fact that there is no excuse for having useless skills. It's only fair to expect them to be useful. Otherwise, why even have them at all?

I wish they'd stop adding all these damn skills to the CM list, and instead utilize the guild for a change, since it's a perfect avenue for them to do so, and also serves as a wonderful RP tool.

People do have incentive, particularly with the Grimswarm. Guild sweep is more useful than non guild sweep and so on. Rogues and Warriors are also relatively well balanced these days. We don't need crazy rotating leg kicks (though a shorter RT tackle might be nice).

What you miss (because he's long mastered) is the sheer annoyance of partner reps in the current world. It's mostly a struggle to find somebody to work with and becomes a chore rather than a "RP tool."

Anything to reduce that would be nice, though I expect a lot of the time many of the Warrior guilds are completely vacant. Noding as a whole might be even more achievable. With a centralized location on that it also might serve to not reduce social interaction as a whole.

[Tolwynn]

Spinning bird kicks, leg shattering sweeps, and 1 minute durations sound pretty great until you think about bandits and Grimswarm getting them all too.

Want to bring people back into the guilds? Put NPCs in the guilds that can act as partners for reps, though less effectively than a fellow adventurer would. That way you've got an option, at least, and hopefully you can partner with some of the people that start showing up again.

While they're at it, they could turf the 5 person requirement for certain audience reps and let lower amounts count, too. Maybe put a bonus for practicing them in a guild as well. It's pretty silly to require 1 - 5% of the entire game population to watch you to get a rep. Arguably silly in the first place that you need to be watched at all for a rep, but small steps first. Added benefit there of not having people pick in healing centers, spamming rest areas with illusion scroll, and so forth.

[Mobius1]

People do have incentive, particularly with the Grimswarm. Guild sweep is more useful than non guild sweep and so on. Rogues and Warriors are also relatively well balanced these days. We don't need crazy rotating leg kicks (though a shorter RT tackle might be nice).


Yeah, I'm sure it's pleeeeeeenty of incentive. That's why so many people are chomping at the bit to master sweep these days.......or not.



What you miss (because he's long mastered) is the sheer annoyance of partner reps in the current world. It's mostly a struggle to find somebody to work with and becomes a chore rather than a "RP tool."


And this is exactly what we're trying to fix. If you bring more people to the guild, it won't be such a chore anymore, and will be fun again.



Anything to reduce that would be nice, though I expect a lot of the time many of the Warrior guilds are completely vacant. Noding as a whole might be even more achievable. With a centralized location on that it also might serve to not reduce social interaction as a whole.

The more things that are done to draw people to the guilds, the better. A combination of many things may very well be what it needs.



Spinning bird kicks, leg shattering sweeps, and 1 minute durations sound pretty great until you think about bandits and Grimswarm getting them all too.


This is certainly no excuse for the skills to be useless. I also doubt that sweep works the same for them as it does players, anyways.

Also keep in mind that my suggestions were simply throwing out ideas off the top of my head. I could care less if every single suggestion of mine sucks, as long as it gets others to chime in with good ideas. Again, it is not unreasonable to expect the guild skills to be useful.



Want to bring people back into the guilds? Put NPCs in the guilds that can act as partners for reps, though less effectively than a fellow adventurer would.


I don't like this idea, at all. This may make it easier for people to gain ranks, but it certainly doesn't help to increase player interaction in the guild. The last thing we need is more mechanical changes that make it less necessary to rely on people. Instead, we need things that encourage people to WANT to rely on each other.

[Brad]

What if guild ranks helped related skills improve? I really only have Rogue Guild experience (though I did get rank 1 of all the warrior guild skills last night ha), so thinking from that angle perhaps Shadow Mastery and Silentstrike would get bonuses to success based on guild ranks - being able to leap out and subdue someone is effective silentstrike practice type of idea.

There are some guild skills like sweep and disarm that are available to multiple professions. What if the other professions, to some extent, could also work on those skills? That increases the population potential anyhow.

But most importantly, I want a Rogue Guild skill that lets me throw sand in the enemy's eyes. Even better would be throwing powdered drakar or zorchar because how great would that be?

[Warriorbird]

I don't like this idea, at all. This may make it easier for people to gain ranks, but it certainly doesn't help to increase player interaction in the guild. The last thing we need is more mechanical changes that make it less necessary to rely on people. Instead, we need things that encourage people to WANT to rely on each other.

Needing to have somebody and not finding anybody now means they're mostly vacant.

[JDDZ]

You're getting really specific there, Brad. First off, I think what your are describing with subdue already exists. If you know silentstrike (rank 3?) and you subdue, it attempts to keep you in hiding. Maybe you were asking about bonuses to compliment guild skills, none the less, I think there are more pressing issues.

I don't think the guild skills need any improvement for the time being, plus getting that implemented....well look at monks. I think we need something like you described earlier, a common place with rogues or warriors can meet regardless of the town they are in for training. Premium subscriptions be damned, there would be no bank, no services, nothing like that. Just a universal courtyard so our buddies in RR or Ta'Vaalor can work on their guild skills without having to take some boat.

[Mobius1]

Needing to have somebody and not finding anybody now means they're mostly vacant.

Which is exactly why we need to give people more incentive to train.



I don't think the guild skills need any improvement for the time being, plus getting that implemented....well look at monks.


Well, seeing how useless sweep/cheapshot/subdue is, I certainly feel they NEED improvement. I don't think I've used any of those skills even once in GS4, while hunting.

Though, I'm sadly inclined to agree with the latter statement, which is why I inquired early on about the rogue advocate (which I don't think anyone replied to.). Even so, I'm certainly willing to give it a shot, no matter how hopeless it might be.

[Brad]

You're getting really specific there, Brad. First off, I think what your are describing with subdue already exists. If you know silentstrike (rank 3?) and you subdue, it attempts to keep you in hiding. Maybe you were asking about bonuses to compliment guild skills, none the less, I think there are more pressing issues.

I was thinking the other way around, with subdue helping silentstrike, too, and have them work together or whatnot. But you're right, it'd definitely be pretty far down the list.

[DaCapn]

But most importantly, I want a Rogue Guild skill that lets me throw sand in the enemy's eyes. Even better would be throwing powdered drakar or zorchar because how great would that be?

That's the dirtkick cman. It is an awesome cman. Again, if guild skills allowed you to pick a subset of skills from a large pool, you could do it. I would trade sweep or subdue for it in an instant if I could. Subdue really only has defensive value against bandits. Cheapshots also have some merit here but I'd still prefer dirtkick over any of them.

[Warriorbird]

Which is exactly why we need to give people more incentive to train.


Or alternately decide that the training is pretty awful and figure out other stuff for the professions to do together.

[Mobius1]

Or alternately decide that the training is pretty awful and figure out other stuff for the professions to do together.

Like what? If you have any suggestions, then by all means, I'd love to hear them.

[Warriorbird]

Heist targets and shoplifting areas for Rogues. Scaling skill for things to steal and disarm/lockpicking/lfm to beat various security measures. Crossbow/thrown weapon crafting. Gambling.

Some sort of arena combat system (grand melee like that one Sunfist puzzle at the upper end) for Warriors. Armor forging. Gambling.

[Mobius1]

You know, it's been a goal of mine for ages, to make a player organization devoted to doing those types of things.

And actually, a lot of it was inspired by the Rogue Guild, itself.

But even so, that kind of stuff is far more difficult to implement, than simply fixing the existing guild skills. And even fixing the skills may turn out to be like pulling teeth.

[Warriorbird]

You know, it's been a goal of mine for ages, to make a player organization devoted to doing those types of things.

And actually, a lot of it was inspired by the Rogue Guild, itself.

But even so, that kind of stuff is far more difficult to implement, than simply fixing the existing guild skills. And even fixing the skills may turn out to be like pulling teeth.

Fixing the skills would be. Much of what I just mentioned has already been implemented in transferrable code. It'd just need a GM with the chutzpah to do it.

[Brad]

That's the dirtkick cman. It is an awesome cman.

That's true, and it is a pretty neat one. It doesn't seem as satisfying as literally burning the eyes out of one's victims though.

Maybe the guilds could teach ways to improve cmans? I don't have any real ideas, I mostly just want to throw drakar into the eyes of my enemies.

[Mobius1]

I always wished we could apply poison to our weapons, in typical thief fashion.

[Warriorbird]

I always wished we could apply poison to our weapons, in typical thief fashion.

Scary how all this stuff is available in DR. You get where I'm going with this.

[Tsoran]

Scary how all this stuff is available in DR. You get where I'm going with this.

Unfortunately, the fact that something exists in DR is about as relevant to GS as a knowledge of Italian vocabulary is relevant to speaking French. They're both romance languages and are therefore based upon the same underpinnings, but they're still different languages.

DR and GS use the same underlying game engine, but the actual game code for each game is very different.

There have been systems in the past that have been moved from one game to another, with varying degrees of success. Generally speaking, in my opinion, the better successes occurred when small stuff was moved over. Larger things tend to have tons of hooks into other parts of the games, making them much harder to move.

[Warriorbird]

Unfortunately, the fact that something exists in DR is about as relevant to GS as a knowledge of Italian vocabulary is relevant to speaking French. They're both romance languages and are therefore based upon the same underpinnings, but they're still different languages.

DR and GS use the same underlying game engine, but the actual game code for each game is very different.

There have been systems in the past that have been moved from one game to another, with varying degrees of success. Generally speaking, in my opinion, the better successes occurred when small stuff was moved over. Larger things tend to have tons of hooks into other parts of the games, making them much harder to move.

They got closer with GS4/DR2.

[Tsoran]

They got closer with GS4/DR2.

Explain?

[Warriorbird]

Explain?

The back end code is nearer for GS and DR for most things now. More standardized. This still doesn't mean that it all would be easy. It's easier though.

[Mobius1]

Again, I still don't think it's worth focusing on new stuff, yet.

Sweep, cheapshot, and subdue, are all skills that are relatively useless to most rogues. It's not unreasonable to expect them to at least have some use. It's better to fix the old stuff than throw in new stuff (Unless, perhaps, it replaces the old stuff, which is also a possibility.).

At this moment, I'm trying to focus on a fix for sweep, because it's the one I'm having the most difficulty with.

Simply making a single target prone, just isn't worth it anymore. We have so many easy ways to dispatch a single target, that it's usually just a waste of time. But more than anything, it's a waste of stamina.

A simple fix would be to reduce the RT, and stamina cost. But still, I couldn't see myself ever using it.

In fact, that's why I thought of the AoE sweep, because that's the only reason I could think of, that would make me want to ever use it.

[Mobius1]

Heh, maybe we should just replace sweep with shadow mastery. That's a skill that SHOULD be in the guild, and would draw lots of people in.

[Warriorbird]

Again, I still don't think it's worth focusing on new stuff, yet.

Sweep, cheapshot, and subdue, are all skills that are relatively useless to most rogues. It's not unreasonable to expect them to at least have some use. It's better to fix the old stuff than throw in new stuff (Unless, perhaps, it replaces the old stuff, which is also a possibility.).

At this moment, I'm trying to focus on a fix for sweep, because it's the one I'm having the most difficulty with.

Simply making a single target prone, just isn't worth it anymore. We have so many easy ways to dispatch a single target, that it's usually just a waste of time. But more than anything, it's a waste of stamina.

A simple fix would be to reduce the RT, and stamina cost. But still, I couldn't see myself ever using it.

In fact, that's why I thought of the AoE sweep, because that's the only reason I could think of, that would make me want to ever use it.

Given that people do take it from the CM list, I'd suspect it might more be a problem with the mindless drudgery of the guild reps themselves. My Warrior is running through some with one of my favorite roleplayers in the lands right now and it feels like tooth pulling.

[Mobius1]

Well, I think Gambits is a wonderful model to follow, for a skill to be not too difficult, and fun. I'm not against making some of the other skills easier to train in (as long as they still require a good amount of partner reps of some kind.).

But I think a lot of people would take the time to guild train, if the guild had key skills (like sweep used to be). Sure, they could just learn it from the CM list, but that would require dumping the points into it. I'd like to think most people would prefer to get the skill without investing their points.

[Mobius1]

I was reading over some of the previous posts and noticed this idea which I somehow looked over, but is actually worth some attention, I think.



From the rogue perspective at least, I think guilds would be way better if you had a pool of options rather than a fixed list of skills. Have 5 skills you can train in (as currently possible). 2-3 slots are for cmans and you choose the ones you want from your professions list. The guild tasks are basic: use it in the field, do something with a footpad, and the basic guild chores. The other slots are the special guild skills. In a system like this (for rogues at least) you won't get stuck with relatively useless offensive cmans and you won't have LM sitting there like a stain if you don't pick locks.

This could actually work! I don't know how I missed this idea, but I'm actually starting to like it the more I think about it!

Basically, Keep LM. Gambits, and stun maneuvers, exactly how they are, but remove the other 3 skills (talk about irony).

Then, allow you to train in 2 or 3 of ANY of the rogue only cmans. To train in them, they could simply have generic tasks that you do, which gives you training points you can put toward any of those 2-3 skills. In fact, perhaps they could even add RP type quests, much like the adventurer's guild, but in more rogue type fashion, to earn TP's.

In fact, maybe they could even step it up to another level, and give people that mastered everything, tasks and/or quests to do, as well, that give decent rewards/XP.

The other cool thing, is they could easily carry this type of system over into ANY profession guild.

[Mobius1]

Sorry, I don't know why I included stunman, since it's also on the CM list, so it should also be removed.

So basically, it could go something like this:

Squares can train 4 skills from their CM list.
Semis can train 2 skills from their CM list.
Pures can train 1 skill from their CM list.

[Warriorbird]

Eh. You'd force guild work and make the maneuver list much less unique. In a world with Rogues having potentially many wonderful maneuvers I'm not sure this is a good idea.

[Mobius1]

I don't understand how either of those things are the case with this idea.

You'd be forced to do zero guild work, because you could simply choose to spend your CM ranks on them.

And how does it make the list less unique? You'd only be able to train in CM's that are normally available to your class, anyways.

And you have to remember, you would NOT be learning more CM skills than you already can, since you'd no longer have sweep/subdue/cheapshot/stunman. You'd simply have more freedom to choose what you want, which may very well include some of the old guild skills.

[Warriorbird]

I don't understand how either of those things are the case with this idea.

You'd be forced to do zero guild work, because you could simply choose to spend your CM ranks on them.

And how does it make the list less unique? You'd only be able to train in CM's that are normally available to your class, anyways.

And you have to remember, you would NOT be learning more CM skills than you already can, since you'd no longer have sweep/subdue/cheapshot/stunman. You'd simply have more freedom to choose what you want, which may very well include some of the old guild skills.

Ah. I thought you'd be imposing a total limit from how you phrased it.