Lets talk about armor

[Kevaek]

Here are some questions:

1. Is it wise to triple train in armor use every level as a warrior?

2. At what character levels (if triple training) should armor be upgraded to the next AsG level? Should I only use Brig, Haub, and Full Plate?

3. When using armor points should I invest them into Crush Protection, because ultimately I will be wearing plate armor and plate is naturally resistant to all other types of attacks (correct me if I am wrong)?

4. What is the difference between the metals on armor? For example, if armor is made of vultite will it carry a 4X enchant always?

5. What is an acceptable RT for using armor with a 2HW?


I am sure I will have more questions as they come up, but I think this is a good start. If there is a thread with all of these answered, please just respond to this thread. It would be nice to have all of the information centralized.

Thanks in advance!

[Dugoar]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use

I think generally you want to 3x armor use until you can get yourself into Full Plate.

I upgraded as I had armor available, usually trying to make sure I had enough armor use to negate the Maneuver penalty. The only exception was I decided to go for Metal Breastplate at 70 ranks instead of 80.

[BriarFox]

1. Is it wise to triple train in armor use every level as a warrior?

Yes, but I'd say you could triple train to MBP and then let it slow down for awhile. Nonetheless, you want to be in full plate asap -- say by level 50 at least.

2. At what character levels (if triple training) should armor be upgraded to the next AsG level? Should I only use Brig, Haub, and Full Plate?

It doesn't really matter. It's a scenario of "heavier is better, but you can make do with less." I'd just find a couple of good suits of armor and use them as you level, pushing to get into them, while you look around for a good set of plate.

3. When using armor points should I invest them into Crush Protection, because ultimately I will be wearing plate armor and plate is naturally resistant to all other types of attacks (correct me if I am wrong)?

Plate has a very high protection to damage and criticals, but it is not naturally resistant to any particular damage *type*. Choose your armor points protection for whatever you'll be faced with the most. Slash is the most common and least deadly, crush is rarer, and deadlier, and puncture is the rarest and deadliest.

4. What is the difference between the metals on armor? For example, if armor is made of vultite will it carry a 4X enchant always?

Metals will generally carry their native enchant unless they've been enchanted. You'll usually see an "enchanter's mark" on them if you look, in that case. You can go to the Abandoned Inn crystal or get a bard to check.

5. What is an acceptable RT for using armor with a 2HW?

You want to get it to the minimum 5 seconds if possible. It's a factor of your Agility and Dexterity and the weapon you're using.

[Kevaek]

It doesn't really matter. It's a scenario of "heavier is better, but you can make do with less." I'd just find a couple of good suits of armor and use them as you level, pushing to get into them, while you look around for a good set of plate.
Does this mean it is better to wear chain mail armor over brig? I would think brig would be better due to it covering all of the body parts. In this same thinking, is MBP better to wear than haub?

[BriarFox]

Does this mean it is better to wear chain mail armor over brig? I would think brig would be better due to it covering all of the body parts. In this same thinking, is MBP better to wear than haub?

Yes. When you wear partial armor of a class, the game treats the "uncovered" portion of your body as if you were wearing the next lower class. So, think about MBP not just as a metal breastplate, but a metal breastplate over a suit of hauberk. Think about augmented chain as a set of chain that covers torso, arms, and legs, but with a rigid leather helmet.

[Kevaek]

Thanks for that last post. It shed some light on what I was thinking about.

I am now wondering about the armor specialty comment you made:


Plate has a very high protection to damage and criticals, but it is not naturally resistant to any particular damage *type*. Choose your armor points protection for whatever you'll be faced with the most. Slash is the most common and least deadly, crush is rarer, and deadlier, and puncture is the rarest and deadliest.


Aren't certain weapon types more effective than others on certain armor types? I thought blunt weapons were more effective against plate than say edged weapons. If this is the case, wouldn't I want to pad against the blunt weapons due to its impact on my safety while wearing plate?

[BriarFox]

Thanks for that last post. It shed some light on what I was thinking about.

I am now wondering about the armor specialty comment you made:



Aren't certain weapon types more effective than others on certain armor types? I thought blunt weapons were more effective against plate than say edged weapons. If this is the case, wouldn't I want to pad against the blunt weapons due to its impact on my safety while wearing plate?

Yes, broadly speaking. It's not that slash, crush, or puncture damage is more effective on a certain type of armor, but some weapons, which might do those types of damage more frequently, will have a higher damage factor and/or AvD against that armor, and certain types of damage have different thresholds for critical hits. For instance, a broadsword can do slash/puncture/crush damage, and has a DF of .200 against plate. A maul does only crush damage and has a DF of .300 against plate. However, crush can kill with a rank 5 critical to the head, while slash needs a rank 7 (if I recall without checking), so you'd be far better off with a maul versus the plate than with the broadsword, even more than the .100 DF difference indicates.

Check out the KP page on Damage Factor, and then click on the individual weapon styles to see their particular DFs: http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Damage_factor

[JDDZ]

1. Yes, besides being able to train cheaply in a multitude of combat skills, armor is a warrior's best skill. Stopping at MBP would be fine to improve some other skills for a few levels, like MOC or CM.

2. Use the heaviest armor your training will let you wear, unless you want some sort of ranger resistance or have another specific suit which you want to wear.

3. I think armor support is the best armor skill for warriors, unless you're a race that really doesn't have encumbrance issues. The added resistances I think are a waste a points.

4. DS bonus will be the only major difference from metal to metal. Imflass is lighter than most other metals, but if you aren't having encumbrance issues, this doesn't really matter.

5. 5 seconds. Like briar said, Dex and Agility decide this. Stat placement is a whole different beast to talk about.

[BriarFox]

This all gets slightly complicated, and I'm not sure my last post does it justice, so here's the context:

Each weapon has a speed, a type of damage (or more than one), a dynamic AvD (attack versus defense) for every armor type (chain mail vs. hauberk), and a dynamic DF (damage factor) for every armor class (chain vs. plate).

Each armor has an RT penalty, a maneuver penalty, an AvD against each type of weapon (which matches the weapon AvDs, of course), and a CD (Crit Divisor) for how much damage it takes to deal each crit rank to it. For instance, if you hit a suit of double leather with a 150 endroll, you might get a rank 3 wound (broken arm). If you hit a suit of plate with a 150 endroll, you might get a rank 1 wound (scratch).

Each damage type (crush, slash, puncture) for weapons has a crit table that distinguishes what crit rank occurs on each individual body part for the amount of damage dealt, how long the stun is, and whether it's fatal or not.

When you choose a weapon, you want to consider its speed, AvD, and DF versus the type of armor you're attacking, as well as its propensity to deliver a certain type of damage. When you choose armor, you want to choose it for its penalties versus its benefits for the type of weapon you're getting hit with.

Now, most people don't really bother with all this stuff. Some weapons are pretty good across the board and some armor is pretty good across the board, and most players stick with those.

[Donquix]

Solution: Use scimitars or whip-blades, problem solved.

[BriarFox]

Solution: Use scimitars or whip-blades, problem solved.

Do *not* listen to this man. Heh.

[Kevaek]

3. I think armor support is the best armor skill for warriors, unless you're a race that really doesn't have encumbrance issues. The added resistances I think are a waste a points.

What races do not have to worry? I am a human. I have been using support so far, but was considering changing it up. That is why I asked the question.

[Kevaek]

While looking at the armor table at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use I notice that it requires the same amount of armor use to use double chain as augmented chain (50 ranks). Am I reading this correctly? If that is true why would I want to wear double chain as opposed to augmented chain?

[BriarFox]

While looking at the armor table at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use I notice that it requires the same amount of armor use to use double chain as augmented chain (50 ranks). Am I reading this correctly? If that is true why would I want to wear double chain as opposed to augmented chain?

The maneuver penalty is lower, and the spell-casting hindrance is lower.

[Asha]

Is there a difference of TD benefits between double and augmented chain

[Donquix]

aug has 1 lower (better) CvA

[tokeinc]

While looking at the armor table at http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use I notice that it requires the same amount of armor use to use double chain as augmented chain (50 ranks). Am I reading this correctly? If that is true why would I want to wear double chain as opposed to augmented chain?

One thing you really should be focusing on is the number of ranks to negate maneuver penalties, NOT the number of ranks required for RT. 60 ranks for both AsG 14 and 15.

[JDDZ]

What races do not have to worry? I am a human. I have been using support so far, but was considering changing it up. That is why I asked the question.

Humans should be ok, unless you carry a ton of items.

[Drew]

The armour protection skills make you more popular too :)

Finally, a way for warriors to be givers and not just takers.

[Taernath]

Yes. When you wear partial armor of a class, the game treats the "uncovered" portion of your body as if you were wearing the next lower class. So, think about MBP not just as a metal breastplate, but a metal breastplate over a suit of hauberk. Think about augmented chain as a set of chain that covers torso, arms, and legs, but with a rigid leather helmet.

If you wear a helmet with an already full coverage armor, does it upgrade to the next ASG? Also, if you wear leg greaves with a torso only armor does it cover the arms too? I seem to remember the former being no, and the latter being yes, but it's been a while.

[Archigeek]

Resistance if very situational. And forget about weapons as they relate to resistance. When they really help most is vs certain critter maneuvers that are often otherwise sure death. If you're hunting something that does one of those, make sure you have the right protection for that maneuver. Rift crawlers for example, you'll want slash protection.

[tokeinc]

If you wear a helmet with an already full coverage armor, does it upgrade to the next ASG? Also, if you wear leg greaves with a torso only armor does it cover the arms too? I seem to remember the former being no, and the latter being yes, but it's been a while.

How would leg greaves cover your arms? Am I missing something?

[Valyss]

The sentiment in this thread is correct :)

1. triple as much as possible until you're at least in MBP

2. move up to the next tier (scale, chain, plate) as soon as possible. this gives you the DF of the new tier, and you're only missing the crit divisor on the uncovered areas, and the cva

3. anything slower than a 5s swing won't cut it, especially if you want to be open ambushing or focus mstriking later on

4. all of the resistance types are nice for different stuff. puncture is good for charges, lances and arrows. slash is good for things like crawler burrows and soul siphons. crush is good against mauls, and probably some illoke type stuff. just get whatever sounds good to you, you won't use it all the time

[Taernath]

How would leg greaves cover your arms? Am I missing something?

It used to be (at least, I'm pretty sure it used to be, that's why I'm asking) that if you wore, say, light leather and a helmet, you effectively had double leather equivalent protection. It had to do with the way the game processed armor coverage, it only recognized progression from torso, to adding arm protection, then adding leg protection and finally adding head protection. It was impossible to have just coverage on your chest and head so it would add 'invisible' armor to your arms and legs.

It's entirely possible I'm just hallucinating all this.

[DaCapn]

How would leg greaves cover your arms? Am I missing something?

The problem is that if you wear a helmet with torso chain you get the penalties of being in hauberk (full coverage) even without any greaves. You don't get any extra coverage on the limbs. You would just get the same scale AG coverage on the limbs.

Also, if you accessorize, non-full coverage armor to make full coverage (i.e. with arm & leg greaves and a helm), you don't get all of the bonuses. You don't get the higher CvA, for instance. Also, I think the AvD in the AS/DS resolution is entirely based off of the base armor you're wearing independent of the accessories. That part of the formula resolves before the outcome of the hit resolves. When the hit has actually been resolved (as a hit or miss) and the crit rank and damage is calculated, it then considers location and its coverage.

[Kevaek]

First of all, I would like to thank you all for participating in this discussion. It has been very valuable insight on my questions.


4. all of the resistance types are nice for different stuff. puncture is good for charges, lances and arrows. slash is good for things like crawler burrows and soul siphons. crush is good against mauls, and probably some illoke type stuff. just get whatever sounds good to you, you won't use it all the time
Thanks for clarifying that! I did not realize, even though it should be common sense, that arrows are puncture damage.

One thing you really should be focusing on is the number of ranks to negate maneuver penalties, NOT the number of ranks required for RT. 60 ranks for both AsG 14 and 15.
What is the difference? Would maneuver penalties cover dodging, parry, and CM skills?

So is it safe to say, do not use greaves, helmets, etc? It sounds like there are a lot of complex mechanics behind accessorizing and it may be better just to get a good suit of armor.

[JDDZ]

So is it safe to say, do not use greaves, helmets, etc? It sounds like there are a lot of complex mechanics behind accessorizing and it may be better just to get a good suit of armor.

Unless you have a nice item which helps you in one way or another, or you're going for style points, I would say no to greaves. Greaves are extra weight, so screw them.

However, right now I have on torso chainmail that is crit weighted. When I pick up enough ranks and I move to double chain, I'm going to keep my chainmail and add arm greaves, unless I find nicer double chain. It's a case by case basis really, there is no one way about it.

[DaCapn]

What is the difference? Would maneuver penalties cover dodging, parry, and CM skills?

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Armor_Use

There is a section of that article that covers exactly that. Some tough questions have been tossed out but please, read KP whenever possible. Off-hand, you'll also want to read the article on dodge.

[DaCapn]

Unless you have a nice item which helps you in one way or another, or you're going for style points, I would say no to greaves. Greaves are extra weight, so screw them.

Actually, depending upon race, greaves can reduce encumbrance the same way light armor does. As a halfling, for instance, if you put on imflass leg greaves, you get -1 lb of encumbrance.

[Androidpk]

5 is ideal but once you get berserk it doesn't really matter.

[Kevaek]

Ok, so I have been doing some looking around at the player shops. It looks like there is more double chain than augmented chain on the market. If I buy double chain and some leg greaves would that be the same as augmented chain armor and manuever wise? Also, would the bonuses on the chain and the greaves stack? Say if I find some chain that has +20 and some greaves that are +10. Would that add 30 DS?
Thanks in advance!

[Asha]

Ok, so I have been doing some looking around at the player shops. It looks like there is more double chain than augmented chain on the market. If I buy double chain and some leg greaves would that be the same as augmented chain armor and manuever wise? Also, would the bonuses on the chain and the greaves stack? Say if I find some chain that has +20 and some greaves that are +10. Would that add 30 DS?
Thanks in advance!

Yeah, pretty sure adding the leg armor would make it augmented chain.
No, the enchants don't stack.
Just forget that single armour pieces have any enchant.

[Mycetozan]

I am using 7x chain hauberk. I have enough training for MBP, but I do nto have any. I am planning to sell the 7x hauberk and buy some 5x or 6x MBP, but I am wondering if it will make me better off.

I also have a set of 4x full plate. If I manage to buy some 6x MBP will I even want the 4x full when it comes time to move up? It 4x full better than 6x MBP?

[Lord Orbstar]

4x full would be better as a warrior, but there is a big difference in 90 armor use ranks for wearing a breastplate vice 140 for the plate. So...go MBP asap then go full asap.

[Nialas]

I tend to lean a little differently on armor training. Train 2x or 3x, your choice, until you get 60 ranks. Then stop training armor and wear chain hauberk (asg 16) for a long, long time. Spend the extra points on skills that maximize your earnings and Adventurer's Guild capability (skinning, trading, perception) or your survival (shield, dodge).

The AvD difference of most weapons between Chain Hauberk (AsG 16) and Metal Breastplate (AsG 17) is not insignificant, and the hauberk is the better option.

While you work up in levels, buy some 4x full plate and start getting it enchanted. Once it reaches a high enough enchant, use premium points to get it padded. Or buy some full plate already tricked out if you can afford it.

Then when you reach a high enough level to wear the armor and it's got the enchant/padding you want, respec to wear it.

[Archigeek]

I tend to agree with Nialas about how best to approach training. Tripple training armor as you go up in level doesn't make a lot of sense these days. Being trained for plate as a warrior does, but you can do it in steps, and make full use of the points in the interim.

What I tend to do when I want to add another skill is load up my secondary skills like first aid, survival, climbing, mana share etc, and then start working on the skill I want to add. When I get to a point where I think I can make the skill useful by shaving some off the top of the afore-mentioned secondary skills, I do that and boom, I go from say 25 ranks to 101 ranks and have a useful skill.

The point though is that you can now train in steps, so you might as well take advantage of it. There's no point in 3x training armor on a given level unless you're going to be able to step into heavy armor THAT level. You might as well make use of the points while you build up a base pool of points, and then draw from that pool to take the step to the next armor that you want to get into.

[Donquix]

I tend to lean a little differently on armor training. Train 2x or 3x, your choice, until you get 60 ranks. Then stop training armor and wear chain hauberk (asg 16) for a long, long time. Spend the extra points on skills that maximize your earnings and Adventurer's Guild capability (skinning, trading, perception) or your survival (shield, dodge).

The AvD difference of most weapons between Chain Hauberk (AsG 16) and Metal Breastplate (AsG 17) is not insignificant, and the hauberk is the better option.

While you work up in levels, buy some 4x full plate and start getting it enchanted. Once it reaches a high enough enchant, use premium points to get it padded. Or buy some full plate already tricked out if you can afford it.

Then when you reach a high enough level to wear the armor and it's got the enchant/padding you want, respec to wear it.

You don't upgrade armor for the AvD alone. The crit divisor for plate and the the CvA for spells are the biggest benefits by far. Staying in hauberk for an extended period is silly, unless you have a really nice set.

the CvA doubles from -9 to -18 from hauberk to MBP, and the training for RT and maneuver penalties is nearly identical between the two. Personally i'd get whatever 4x MBP you could find and use that over even plain 7x hauberk. For most weapon types the increase in AvD combined with the higher critical divsor will almost always be comparable to the 15 extra DS, and the CvA is invaluable if you're hunting casters.

[Mycetozan]

Is there a significant difference between Breastplate and augmented breastplate?

[DaCapn]

Is there a significant difference between Breastplate and augmented breastplate?

Other than the ones described at www.krakiipedia.org? No. None at all.

[Mycetozan]

I switched to the 4x augmented breastplate. It is very different. I get hit constantly, but usually for 1-3 points of damage with an occasional 10 or 20. Instead of rare big wounds, I get slowly picked to death. I think that I will die less, but I use up a lot of acantha leaf.

I seem to get nailed by Kiramon special attacks all the time where they never hit me with their special attacks before. Maybe this is just chance. Is there some technical reason that this would be true?

I am going to use some 4x regualr breastplate while I have the augmented enchanted up to 5x or 6x. I am not sure that I will go up to 6x since I have some 4x full plate waiting for me and I am only two levels from being able to wear it. I may as well spend the money upgrading the 4x full plate.

the full plate I will eventually get enchanted up more and then use premium points to add padding. How much should I enchant it before adding padding?

I the premium point padding permanent? Is damage or critical padding better? Can I do both?

Any suggestions on finding an enchanter?


THanks

[DaCapn]

I seem to get nailed by Kiramon special attacks all the time where they never hit me with their special attacks before. Maybe this is just chance. Is there some technical reason that this would be true?

Other than the ones described at www.krakiipedia.org? No. None at all.

[Lord Orbstar]

What the captain is suggesting is you do a.little. research yourself. the answers are there.

[Mycetozan]

In a couple of levels I will be able to have 130 ranks in armor. If I wear plate, will the maneuver penalty be severe? Krackopedia says that the penalty is reduced as you get closer to the required amount of training but says that the amount it is reduced is unpublished.

Does anyone know? Is it practical for a warrior with 130 ranks in armor to wear full plate? Will it be better to just stick with Augmented breastplate?


thanks

[Archigeek]

Go with the full plate.

[Jeril]

I think this depends on what you are hunting and if you are working on tackle or disarm for guild skills. In an earlier post the OP says he gets nailed by kiramon maneuvers often, wearing fullplate while being under trained for it will make this worse. If you are working on either tackle or disarm you'll get a penalty while being under trained for your armor, I forget how big or small it will be, but at least a -10.

[Archigeek]

I think this depends on what you are hunting and if you are working on tackle or disarm for guild skills. In an earlier post the OP says he gets nailed by kiramon maneuvers often, wearing fullplate while being under trained for it will make this worse. If you are working on either tackle or disarm you'll get a penalty while being under trained for your armor, I forget how big or small it will be, but at least a -10.

130 ranks is not undertrained for full plate, but the way armor relates to ta Kale is wonky. You willoften find yourself in penalty even with substantially more than 130 ranks of armor and wearing full plate. I do agree however that there are situations where all other things being equal, you are better off in a set of MBP. If the problem is while training for tackle, get a set of lighter armor, just for training.

[Sam]

Does anyone know? Is it practical for a warrior with 130 ranks in armor to wear full plate? Will it be better to just stick with Augmented breastplate?
thanks

As a gnome, I started wearing plate before I hit 130 ranks and didn't have any issues, though I had a nice set of plate and didn't have any nice MBP, so that influenced my decision.

Just be careful what you hunt as far as maneuver attacks goes.. If I were you, and my swing RT was the same in augmented or full, i'd go with full.

That 140 ranks is kind of misleading, as you will still have higher action penalty in plate compared to someone in lighter armor even if you have 300 armor ranks.

[Archigeek]

That 140 ranks is kind of misleading, as you will still have higher action penalty in plate compared to someone in lighter armor even if you have 300 armor ranks.

This is doubly true. 140 ranks is really misleading in that the RT is trained away at 130 ranks, and as Brute is alluding to, you will be at a disadvantage in the SMR no matter how many ranks you have.

My suggestion is to vet to 130 first, then 2x PF, then 180 armor, then 230 armor, then 3x PF, then 280 armor. All the while you will of course be maxed in CM. This will give you maximum resistance to maneuvers. Also, pick up anarmor specialty tailored to where you are hunting.

[Rolis]

Actually, depending upon race, greaves can reduce encumbrance the same way light armor does. As a halfling, for instance, if you put on imflass leg greaves, you get -1 lb of encumbrance.

I am pretty sure that this is incorrect-- atleast according to krakiipedia. I am at work and do not have to check but the armor accessories do not apply to the same mechanics of functional armor. Meaning armor accessories have weighted applied and racial penalities/bonus per encumbrace applied. I believe all this information can be found on krakii's page regarding encumbrance.

[Jeril]

I don't see how you consider 130 ranks as fully trained for full plate when it is only the first threshold when training for it, and that only removes any round time penalties. You need 140 ranks to reach the base action(maneuver) penalty, and as pointed out the AP for plate is huge, why make it worse on yourself when you don't have to?

I also don't see why you recommend training up armor ranks instead of tripling PF first. PF is a bigger factor in avoiding maneuvers and in over training you are only taking off a hair more then a third of the AP, only 12 of 35. We don't know the exact number but from what has been said the AP of plate falls somewhere between 102 and 201 so even a third of that is 68 at most, while training fully in PF would give you 101. Another thing is that when training up PF every rank you gain will help unlike with the armor when it only helps once you hit a threshold.

[Roblar]

Yup. Cap PF first. $0.02. Done.

[Archigeek]

230 ranks is only 28 more than 2x. I only suggested picking up those 28 ranks before 3x pf.

As for 140 ranks of armor, we know based on GM statements, that the action penalty effectively goes away at 130 ranks, and then is reduced an additional 4% every 50 ranks thereafter. Hence my mention of the 180, 230, and 280 thresholds. I really don't think the 140 number really means anything anymore.

In any case, I highly recommend training towards thresholds by making best use of tp's until you have enough to hit the threshold.

There's no question that 3x pf is very valuable, but don't forget that finally "over training" in armor is worth a lot now too. Training in the right armor specialty for your hunting area can be a huge benefit.

[Jeril]

I don't recall GM's stating anywhere, directly or indirectly, that the maneuver penalty is trained off at 130 ranks. Now they did pick the point where the round time is trained off as the starting point for over training in armor, which I always thought was odd and misleading.

I can agree with the armor specialization being extremely helpful but even with 140 ranks in armor you can get rank four in the one best suited for your hunting area.

Those 230 ranks are only 28 over 2x if you are capped. And from previous posts it is actually unclear when you think someone should start training towards any of these goals level wise. Likely more a personal preference I guess, for a good long while I did just fine with 150 ranks in armor and only 2x in PF, and I've hunted everywhere anyone can hunt at cap.

[DaCapn]

I spent some time making inquiries about armor training requirements a while back. Many players gave assurances that it worked one way or another based solely on their general know-how of GS (no testing, no GM confirmation). With pretty relentless questioning I was able to obtain two things: (1) some info from a GH training session (2) some time alone with an all-too-kind GM telling me whether or not I still had excess hindrance in MBP while I played with AU training. Both of these pieces of info were in total agreement.

Based on that information, I posted the maneuver/RT clarifications that you see on KP (this was about 4 years ago). That info agrees with the qualitative majority of "higher authority" players that I spoke to before hand as well.

So, unless the formulas vary according to AsG, 140 points of AU should be considered "fully trained" for full plate. I've never seen anything to indicate that mechanics have changed in this regard.

All that said, I can't think less of anyone who thinks that there still isn't concrete proof. Though, I haven't heard of any better evidence out there. Maybe Riltus will chime in here and school us all something fierce.

[DaCapn]

I am pretty sure that this is incorrect-- atleast according to krakiipedia. I am at work and do not have to check but the armor accessories do not apply to the same mechanics of functional armor. Meaning armor accessories have weighted applied and racial penalities/bonus per encumbrace applied. I believe all this information can be found on krakii's page regarding encumbrance.

Yeah, I played around with it a while and agree that I was wrong. I got exactly the result stated on KP using coins to gauge weight. I probably got the impression that it reduced encumbrance at some point because of the weight reduction from holding to wearing.

[Archigeek]

Alright, let me back down from my 130 vs 140 statement a little. Yes, I'll agree that 140 is officially fully trained. I used to always remind folks of that for many years, but with the advent of the SMR, I guess I have a hard time believing in the idea of "fully trained" any more.

Back to the point of what to train in, I would say Jeril that you're absolutely right that it's personal preference. We're dealing with post-cap training, and I'm not sure that some of the lines of thought we might have apply to those who aren't. Like you, I got by for many years with just 2x pf and 140 ranks of armor. It wasn't really till the advent of armor specialization... and rift crawlers, that I felt the need to bump up either of those two really. Doing so however has helped enormously.

The last thing I'll add, is that I'll shortly be bringing armor up to 290 ranks. Why? Because I can? Seriously though: minimum lesser spirit circle hindrance. I mean, why not, if you're already at 280? What's an extra 10, when it allows you to invoke scrolls in the field with a high degree of success? And generally it's spiritual TD that squares are short on anyway.