Two Weapon Combat

[dmac188]

Hello,

Any two weapon combat experts out there? I'm trying to swing two short swords and have a roundtime of 5. I was hoping for a roundtime of 4. I can't find clear information on how roundtime is calculated with TWC....I didn't totally understand the explanation on Krakiipedia. Is it possible to have a 4 roundtime swinging two shorts swords? Do I need to boost up specific stats?

Thanks,

[Rhovan]

Hello,

Any two weapon combat experts out there? I'm trying to swing two short swords and have a roundtime of 5. I was hoping for a roundtime of 4. I can't find clear information on how roundtime is calculated with TWC....I didn't totally understand the explanation on Krakiipedia. Is it possible to have a 4 roundtime swinging two shorts swords? Do I need to boost up specific stats?

Thanks,

Short swords have a base speed of +3, which leads to:
TWCBaseRT = Weapon1BaseRT + (Weapon2BaseRT - 2)
TWCBaseRT = 3 + (3-2) = 4
Weapons with a base speed of +3 have a minimum round time of 4 seconds, so this all points to a roundtime of 4 being possible.

Personally, I swing two longswords and I don't have a problem getting a roundtime of 5 seconds. You are talking about a regular attack and not ambushing right?

[Vimp]

Always use a lighter blade in your left hand whenever possible, vice versa increases RT regardless of base (not all shortswords weigh the same).

Your race (compared against weapon sizes) and by default your stat bonuses as well as the weapons' base speed also factor into the equation for your best possible TWC roundtime in any given combination.

[Drew]

Short swords really shine in mstriking. I can do an 8 swing mstrike (4 attacks of 2 swings each) in 6 seconds.

[Latrinsorm]

Short swords have a base speed of +3, which leads to:
TWCBaseRT = Weapon1BaseRT + (Weapon2BaseRT - 2)
TWCBaseRT = 3 + (3-2) = 4
Weapons with a base speed of +3 have a minimum round time of 4 seconds, so this all points to a roundtime of 4 being possible.

Personally, I swing two longswords and I don't have a problem getting a roundtime of 5 seconds. You are talking about a regular attack and not ambushing right?This is the key - two shortswords do not have a base speed of 3, they have a base speed of 4, so the minimum round time is 5.

[dmac188]

Hmmm I'm still confused....I think shortswords do have a roundtime of 3 and a minimum roundtime of 4. I think I can dual weild short swords with a roundtime of 4 if others can dual weild longswords with a round time of 5, right? These are my current stats. Enhanced my strength is more like 118

Strength (STR): 93 (6) ... 93 (6)
Constitution (CON): 81 (25) ... 81 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 81 (25) ... 81 (25)
Agility (AGI): 81 (25) ... 81 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 76 (8) ... 76 (8)
Aura (AUR): 93 (26) ... 93 (26)
Logic (LOG): 67 (18) ... 67 (18)
Intuition (INT): 73 (16) ... 73 (16)
Wisdom (WIS): 71 (10) ... 71 (10)
Influence (INF): 99 (19) ... 99 (19)

[Latrinsorm]

Hmmm I'm still confused....I think shortswords do have a roundtime of 3 and a minimum roundtime of 4. I think I can dual weild short swords with a roundtime of 4 if others can dual weild longswords with a round time of 5, right?No. The base RT of dual longswords is 4 + 4 - 2 = 6, which has a minimum of 5. The base RT of dual shortswords is 3 + 3 - 2 = 4, which has a minimum of 5.

[Gizmo]

Short swords, from the website:



Other names: antler sword, braquemar, baselard, chereb, gladius, kris, sica. wakizashi
Damage type: slash, crush, puncture
Description: A shortsword has no particularly defining features, other than a short double-edged flat blade.
Base DU/ST: 185/70
Base Speed: +3

[Latrinsorm]

That's the scimitar entry.

[Gizmo]

What? There is nothing there! ;)

[Lemons]

Did a lot of testing with min rt for twc today. Looks basically like there might be some kind of weapon size penalty thing that bumps some weapons from 4 to 5 for min rt. Daggers, hook-knives, and such stayed at 3 sec. min rt, troll claws and sai stuck to 4, while short swords, crowbills, and katars jumped up from 4 second min rt to 5. Axes stayed at 5.
-c

[Latrinsorm]

Try a short sword and a sai. You will have a minimum RT of 4, because 3 + 2 - 2 = 3.
What? There is nothing there!Ha, fair enough.

[Vimp]

I've gone both routes with this on different characters, twin falchions with a 5 sec rt open swing - hits hard enough to maim enemy into hard RT from the crits often enough to negate the higher RT incurred for an mstrike...

...Twin daggers on another for the fastest end of the spectrum, it may seem inane to chip away at health but throw some flaring daggers into the mix and a haste embed and its like a blender - make those feras and a focused mstrike of 10 hits and it gets uggggggggly!

[Reltov420]

Chaos espadon and sonic longsword for the win at twc with my bard. 8 flares in 6 swings in 9 seconds!

[Gizmo]

I'm enjoying the katars. Hit like a longsword, and nicely so against chain+ classes.

And, I swing two in 5 seconds, regardless of unfocused or focused mstrike.

[Lord Orbstar]

arent katars horribly expensive to train in? TPs must be tight

[Warriorbird]

arent katars horribly expensive to train in? TPs must be tight

For a square, not really.

[Suppressed Poet]

Chaos espadon and sonic longsword for the win at twc with my bard. 8 flares in 6 swings in 9 seconds!

I have a 7x perfect unbalance flaring falchion. If only I weren't a slow giantman... It would be really cool to combine that with my sonic.

[Asrial]

Looks basically like there might be some kind of weapon size penalty...There certainly is something going on and I think it's a scaling penalty. The system may also be a lot more sensitive to encumbrance than regular swinging is.

eonake (5 lbs) / white ora (5 lbs) = 7 RT

vultite (4 lbs) / eonake (5 lbs) = 7 RT

eonake (5 lbs) / vultite (4 lbs) = 6 RT

(all falchions)

[thefarmer]

It's weapon weight.

[Asrial]

It's weapon weight.Yes, that's a given. What I'm after is any documentation/research about that weight interaction and any other penalties involved.

The only thing I have is from 2001.

[Latrinsorm]

I have this Warden post from early 2004:

A minimum RT of 5 seconds with 2 katars is not a bug.
Assuming a character's left hand weapon is as fast or faster than their right hand weapon, RT is calculated as:
Righty Weapon Speed + (Lefty Weapon Speed - 2, min 0) + Heavy Weapon mod = Base RT
Actual RT = Base RT + Encumbrance mod + Armor Hindrance mod + Dex/Agility mod + Aiming mod
The Heavy Weapon modifier is typically zero. It only applies if a character tries to use a lefty weapon that is considered heavy for their Strength bonus.

So outside of encumbrance, weight only matters for off hand, agreeing with your observations. There could be a penalty for a slower off hand weapon, but a) why would you ever have a slower off hand weapon and b) type SORT AUTO HEAD and SWAP.

[Asrial]

Not so much a slower off hand, but an off hand equal to the power of your primary hand (IE: two falchions / waraxes). Mstriking is another beast entirely.

The character in question is a half-elf with a strength of 93 (98 after enhancives).

The reason their RT is so high is because of armor training and the "your off hand weapon is the same weight, or heavier than your main hand weapon" penalty. It took me a while to figure some of this out because of the odd results I was getting (and lack of documentation on the penalties).

What surprised me was that the penalty is the same for a same weight off hand or heavier off hand (though it's only heavier by 1 lb). I can see a same weight off hand being +1 RT and something heavier being +2. Who knows what you can get away with in this situation if you have the agility/dexterity to counteract the penalty.

Though, who cares? Nothing is going to be stronger than 2x falchions/waraxes and it's easy enough to get a proper setup with those.

[Archigeek]

Berserking with a handaxe in each hand and a lot of MOC training = 12 strikes every 5 seconds... a regular whirling dervish, only not so peace loving.

[Latrinsorm]

Not so much a slower off hand, but an off hand equal to the power of your primary hand (IE: two falchions / waraxes). Mstriking is another beast entirely.

The character in question is a half-elf with a strength of 93 (98 after enhancives).

The reason their RT is so high is because of armor training and the "your off hand weapon is the same weight, or heavier than your main hand weapon" penalty. It took me a while to figure some of this out because of the odd results I was getting (and lack of documentation on the penalties).

What surprised me was that the penalty is the same for a same weight off hand or heavier off hand (though it's only heavier by 1 lb). I can see a same weight off hand being +1 RT and something heavier being +2. Who knows what you can get away with in this situation if you have the agility/dexterity to counteract the penalty.

Though, who cares? Nothing is going to be stronger than 2x falchions/waraxes and it's easy enough to get a proper setup with those.I don't have your data, but my interpretation of Warden said seems different. Weight relative to main hand should be irrelevant, only weight relative to Str bonus should be relevant. If you double up on vultite fals, do you still get 6 RT?

[Asrial]

I don't have your data, but my interpretation of Warden said seems different. Weight relative to main hand should be irrelevant, only weight relative to Str bonus should be relevant. If you double up on vultite fals, do you still get 6 RT?Interesting results...

Unencumbered, trained for the armor, -3 from agility/dexterity

2x 4lb falchions = 5 RT

2x 5lb falchions = 6 RT

[Latrinsorm]

But 5/5 was 7 before? You've lost me now.

[Asrial]

But 5/5 was 7 before? You've lost me now.The character was 1 rank away from being trained for their armor so we added that rank after initial testing the other night.

The first set of numbers have a +1 RT penalty from armor. This current set does not.

[Latrinsorm]

Ah so:

4/4 = 5
5/4 = 5
4/5 = 6
5/5 = 6

I wonder if you could get a 3 pounder anywhere, that would be really helpful. Imflass should do it. Then you could get encumbered to +1 and see if 4/3 brought you back down to 5. If not, I think it's just 5 pounds is too heavy for your offhand.

[Asrial]

I'll get back to you about the 3 lb falchions. I have some, but I can't access them immediately.

[Donquix]

If i recall anything with a base rt of 4 or higher is a minimum RT of 5. Dual ss is 4 second base rt.

[Wheelerm]

My rogue is a TWC, and he swings a longsword (right hand) and a gauche (left hand) for a RT of 5 sec ambushing and 4 sec open. Sometimes, I use a dagger and a gauche and ambush eyes for a 3 sec open, and 4 sec ambush.

Gauches are nice because they offer some protection like a shield, whereas a sword won't and they are really light. I would suggest getting a gauche in the left hand. My gauche hits for approximately the same damage (different damage type, though), and reduced my RT by one full second.

[Asrial]

CHARACTER RACE: half-elf

(93 strength (21 bonus))

(-3 RT from stats)

7lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 6 RT

7lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 5 RT

7lb falchion + 3lb falchion = 5 RT

5lb falchion + 7lb falchion = 6 RT

5lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 6 RT

5lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 5 RT

4lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 6 RT

4lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 5 RT

3lb falchion + 7lb falchion = 6 RT

3lb falchion + 3lb falchion = 5 RT



(added coins to take 7lb/5lb to 7 RT)

5lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 7 RT

5lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 6 RT

5lb falchion + 3lb falchion = 6 RT

4lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 7 RT

4lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 6 RT

4lb falchion + 3lb falchion = 6 RT

3lb falchion + 5lb falchion = 7 RT

3lb falchion + 4lb falchion = 6 RT

3lb falchion + 3lb falchion = 6 RT

[Latrinsorm]

Excellent work! It looks like it is only off-hand weight, 5 pounds is too heavy for 21 bonus, and anything more than 5 or less than 4 is no different from 5 and 4.

[Asrial]

..and anything more than 5 or less than 4 is no different from 5 and 4.Yeah, I was really surprised by the 3lb/7lb result.