PDA

View Full Version : Combat Changes Part 1



Scott
08-07-2003, 01:24 PM
Several changes are being made to the combat system in order to make it more interesting and fun. These include the addition of the passive combat actions of Evasion, Blocking, and Parrying, which provide the ability to avoid attacks outright as a physical means for improving a character?s Defense Strength. In addition, we are revising many spells to provide progressive improvements in Defense Strength rather than large step-change bonuses.




SHIELDS

Shield skill aids in two ways; first, increased skill will improve a character?s chance to block an attack entirely. Second, if the outright block fails, the shield skill still increases the character?s Defense Strength (DS).

There will be four types of shields in GemStone IV. Shields have various names, but can be broken down into four categories:

* Small Shield
* Medium (standard) Shield
* Large Shield
* Tower Shield

Existing shields will all convert to Medium shields initially. We will be providing a voluntary conversion mechanism that will allow players to convert their shields to one of the other types if the name is appropriate for that type.

Training guidelines for Shield Use (for characters pursuing a One-handed weapon/Shield training path):
Warrior 2x
Rogue 1.5x
Bard/Ranger 1x
Pures 0.5x


The above table shows what would be considered ?typical training? for a given profession. Any player is free to train their character as they see fit, but this table provides a basic guideline for what the combat system expects.

Shield Defense Strength (DS) bonus:

(Shield Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4))/(1.5) = Base Value

Base Value * Stance Modifier * (100% + Shield Size Modifier) = DS bonus

Shield Size Modifier:
Small -20%
Medium 0%
Large 20%
Tower/Wall 40%


Stance Modifier: 50% + Stance/2.

Example: In Stance Guarded (Stance = 80), the Shield DS stance modifier would be 50% + (80/2) = 90%

The odds for an outright Block are based on the defender?s Shield Use ranks compared to the attacker?s level. It is affected by stats, shield size, and stance. A character with 1x shield training and a medium shield will block a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive. A character with 3x shield training and all other factors the same would have roughly a 15% chance to block that same attack.



WEAPONS

Parrying is handled similarly to Shield Blocking: increased skill will improve a character?s chance to deflect an attack entirely, and if the outright parry fails, the Parrying still increases the character?s DS. Parrying will require the defender to use a weapon unless the defender is a Monk. Parrying openhanded with brawling skill will still provide the DS bonus but will not have a chance for the outright parry.

Training guidelines for a weapon skill:
Warrior 2x
Rogue 2x
Bard/Ranger 2x
Pures 1x or Staves


Parry DS bonus:

(Weapon Ranks + (STR bonus/4) + (DEX Bonus/4)) = Base Value

Base Value * Stance Modifier * 2H weapon modifier + Stance/4 = DS bonus

Stance Modifier = 20%+(Stance/2)

Example: In Stance Guarded (Stance = 80), the Stance Modifier would be 20% + (80/2) = 60%

Using a two-handed weapon provides a 50% bonus, otherwise no modifier.

The odds for an outright parry are based on the defender?s weapon ranks compared to the attacker?s level. It is affected by stats, certain spells, and stance. A character with 2x weapon training would parry a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive.



DODGE

Dodge is similar to Shields/Blocking: increased skill will improve a character?s chance to evade an attack entirely, and if the outright evade fails, the Dodge skill still increases the character?s DS.

Training guidelines for Dodge for characters pursuing a One-handed weapon/Shield training path are shown below. Characters that pursue shieldless combat styles will be expected to have more Dodge skill than the typical OH/Shield users:
Warrior 1.5x
Rogue 2x
Bard/Ranger 0.75x
Pures 0x


The above table shows what would be considered ?typical training? for a given profession. Any player is free to train their character as they see fit, but this table provides a basic guideline for what the combat system expects.

Dodge Defense Strength (DS) bonus:

(Dodge Ranks + (AGiLity bonus/2) + (INTuition Bonus/4) + Spell Mods) = Base Value

Spells that improve attempts to Dodge include Mobility, Blur, Mass Blur, Elemental Refraction, and Song of Mirrors.

Base Value * Stance Modifier * Shield Penalty * Armor Hindrance Penalty = DS bonus

Stance Modifier: 75% + Stance/4.

Example: In Stance Guarded (Stance = 80), the Dodge DS stance modifier would be 75% + (80/4) = 95%

Shield Penalty: Using a shield hinders attempts to Dodge. The penalty is 20% for a small shield, 30% for a medium shield, 40% for a large shield, and 50% for a tower shield.

Armor Hindrance penalty: Wearing heavy armor hinders attempts to Dodge. The penalty is 1/2 of the armor?s Maneuver Hindrance value.

The odds for an outright dodge are based on the defender?s Dodge ranks compared to the attacker?s level. It is affected by stats, certain spells, and stance. A character with 1x Dodge training can evade a like-level foe roughly 5% of the time in stance offensive. A character with 3x Dodge training and all other factors the same would have roughly a 15% chance to evade that same attack.



SPELLS

Modifications to many defensive spells are required as part of the overall combat changes. Changing spells to have progressive defense bonuses rather than the existing large step bonuses aids in properly designing fun challenges for players without making combat too easy or too difficult. Additionally, certain spells are changing to increase the Evasion attempt rather than directly increasing Defense Strength (which will be indirectly increasing a character?s DS if the Evasion attempt fails). The table below details the spell changes:
SPELL DESCRIPTION
Group A
102 Changed to +20 DS, -20 AS, +/-1 for every 2 ranks beyond 2
120 Changed to +15 DS +1 for every 2 ranks beyond 20.
140 Changed to a 60 second duration, not included in standard expected DS evaluation. Duration will increase with Blessing Lore training, but it is not expected to be cost effective to have this spell continually active. It will provide a large boost for times when a player feels it is needed.
202 Changed to +10 DS +1 for every 3 ranks beyond 2, Physical DS only (No Bolt DS)
303 Changed to +10 DS +1 for every 2 ranks beyond 3
307 Changed to not add to Bolt DS
313 Changed to add progressively increasing Generic DS after 35 ranks of Cleric Spells are gained.
414 Changed to +20 DS
419 Changed to +20 DS
430 Changed to +15 DS + 1 for every 2 ranks beyond 30
613 Changed to +20 DS +1 for every 2 ranks beyond 13
712 Changed to +15 DS + 1 per rank beyond 12, max at level
919 Changed to a 60 second duration, not included in standard expected DS evaluation. As with Wall of Force, it is not expected to be cost effective to have this spell continually active. It will provide a substantial defensive boost for times when the player feels it is needed.
1109 +15 DS + 1 for every 2 Empath Ranks beyond 15, Max 30, Physical DS only.
1119 Changed to provide half bonus to Physical DS, full bonus to Bolt DS
1009 Max at +35 DS
1010 Changed to +10 DS +1 for every 2 songs known beyond 10
1012 Max at +35 DS
1014 Max at +35 DS
Group B
503 10 Ranks of Dodge + 1 for every 2 spells known beyond 3
618 20 Ranks of Dodge + 1 for every spell known beyond 18
905 15 Ranks of Dodge + 1 for every 2 spells known beyond 5
911 20 Ranks of Dodge
1035 20 Ranks of Dodge + 1 per spell known beyond 35. This spell will be moving to a lower spell slot. More information will be provided when details are finalized.
Group C
507 The spell messaging will be revised to imply deflection rather than an agility boost.


Group A spells reflect a change to Defense Strength (DS) only. Any TD bonuses provided by these spells is not changing.

Group B spells are no longer going to be providing a flat DS bonus. They will instead provide a bonus to Evasion attempts (which will indirectly add to DS, should the evasion attempt fail).

Group C spells reflect a change to the messaging of the spell only.

Many of these spells are being changed to provide a base defensive benefit plus a bonus amount dependent upon the caster?s training. The bonus portion of these spells is only factored in when the spell is self-cast. For example, if Spirit Shield (Spell 202) now adds 10 Defense Strength (DS) + 1 DS for every 3 Major Spirit (MjS) ranks beyond 2, it will only add the base 10 DS when cast on someone other than the caster.

For every spell that has an increasing bonus, whether in Group A or B, the mana cost for the spell will increase by some amount as well. Specific details will be provided when they are finalized.



Note: Further coding and testing could result in changes. Please stay tuned to the GemStone III Forums and the GSIV documentation for updates. Thank you!

http://www.play.net/gs3/news/gemstone_iv/home.asp

~ Kitrina

This message was originally posted in The Next Generation of GemStone, Combat Changes. To discuss the above follow the link below.

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=30&category=101&topic=7&message =1710

Parkbandit
08-07-2003, 01:48 PM
Not too happy about my current tower shield not being considered a true tower shield in GS4.. but like everything else I see.

Thanks Sintik

Scott
08-07-2003, 02:10 PM
<<Existing shields will all convert to Medium shields initially. We will be providing a voluntary conversion mechanism that will allow players to convert their shields to one of the other types if the name is appropriate for that type. >>

Why would someone make their shield small? How stupid is that?

Edaarin
08-07-2003, 02:27 PM
It's easier to dodge with smaller shields. I'm planning on using a buckler myself, because no way in hell I'm going to be doing more than 1x in shield.

Suppa Hobbit Mage
08-07-2003, 02:29 PM
Just more ways to fuck mages. I don't have redux, so lets lower my ability to defend.

Scott
08-07-2003, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Just more ways to fuck mages. I don't have redux, so lets lower my ability to defend.

You'll have stone skin.... I guess they want you to rely on that.

Parkbandit
08-07-2003, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Just more ways to fuck mages. I don't have redux, so lets lower my ability to defend.

Where are you getting this from? Is it just from the change to Wizard Shield?

Everything is relative.. I am hoping with the downtweaking of DS amounts.. that most critters AS will also follow... so you probably wouldn't see a big difference. As it is now, my wizard who is 52 and uses 6x tunic and 5x shield and 4x sword has no problem what so ever with DS. His issues are more with maneuver attacks and CS attacks.

And spells like Blur, Mass Blur and Elemental Refraction will actually help wizards dodge better.

And I didn't see the voluntary conversion of shields.. so at least I have that option on my tower shield.

Taernath
08-07-2003, 03:31 PM
Who the hell is going to cast a spell that only lasts 60 seconds? 140 = utter crap, 919 is only slightly better because it doesn't cost as much as 140.

*edit*

I should probably say I like these changes for my ranger. 613, 618 and ranger circle training will be far more valuable now that they have increasing benefits (which I assume are uncapped), and that there is no way in hell I will be training past 130.

Cleric changes look good as well, though I'm pretty sure they'll put a cap on them.

But my wizard... Man oh man. Their upcoming spells better be more useful than that Icepatch thing they released in beta.

[Edited on 8/7/03 by Taernath]

Parkbandit
08-07-2003, 03:48 PM
Yea.. the cost for only 1 minute of protection DOES seem steep.. be it 40 mana or 19.

Hopefully.. the AS/DS tweaks will result in not having to wear those spells at all normally.. and you only have to use them when you are in trouble.

Drew2
08-07-2003, 04:01 PM
Why can't they just say "Empaths are not allowed to hunt anymore"?

Skaster
08-07-2003, 05:23 PM
Originally posted by Tayre
Why can't they just say "Empaths are not allowed to hunt anymore"?

Not only that, but as of late, it's been increasingly harder to fry in any of the main healing areas, including Solhaven's Tower, Solhaven's North Market, Landing's TSC, Landing's Voln, Landing's Crypt, Landing's Ledge, Icemule's TC, Icemule's Voln, Illistim's Dais and Vaalor's victory court.

I've been trying to fry my level 20 empath there, either during peak hours or off hours, and I'm only able to fry about 5% of the time. The rest of the time I'm able to keep up at about clear.

With GS4, empaths will basically be prohibited from hunting (losing 211 and 215 is REALLY going to hurt, that's 40 AS) and because of the experience "loss" in dying, people are going to be hunting more cautiously, and thus, less wounds. AND, empaths are going to lose transferance, so that makes rescue-frying a dead end, too.

Unless this minor mentalist sphere is something big, empaths are getting fucked over major.

Edaarin
08-07-2003, 06:12 PM
I was getting tired of seeing all the uber level bought empaths going bind crazy anyway.

Artha
08-07-2003, 06:50 PM
Not too happy about my current tower shield not being considered a true tower shield in GS4.. but like everything else I see.

You'll be able to convert it.

Taernath
08-07-2003, 07:37 PM
Re: 919 Wizard Shields · on 8/7/2003 4:16:22 PM 5237

ParaX-Posted from the Sorcerer Folder ;)

Issue # 1: "I can't cast Wizard Shield for a reasonable amount of time anymore. I need that +50 DS that it provides to survive."

You currently need it to survive because it is expected that you are able to have it up 100% of the time because of its current duration. This will not be the case in GS4. Clearly we don't believe that you can keep a 19 mana spell going at a duration of a minute per cast.

Despite what some people may think we don't just throw dice into the air to come up with AS numbers for creatures and then give them that AS. It is fairly easy for us to calculate the DS that a like-leveled character will have against a creature. The AS that we then assign to that creature (along with a consideration of the AvD of its various attacks against various armor types) reflects the number of times and how severely we want that critter to be able to hit a player. Critter DS will be lowered to assume that no one has Wizard Shield active.

Issue # 2: "Why keep this spell at all if we're not expected to use it?"

We feel it still provides a meaningful short-term boost to DS in case of emergencies. Say you want to run into an invasion to save a friend but don't have the DS to survive the creatures. Putting up Wizard Shield will allow you to do this. Another example is that you're hunting a creature and are suddenly swarmed by three or more creatures. Your chance of dying increases dramatically in such an instance because the creatures can work in unison. One throws a stone at your head while the other keeps swinging at you. Now would be an ideal time to put up Wizard Shield rather than retreating if you feel that you need additional safety.

Issue # 2: "The Wizard Shield changes are just done because you don't like pures."

The WoF, Wizard Shield, and Airwall (and one or two others) changes are necessary because it is not feasible to design a balanced system with these large "step" bonuses as opposed to progressive bonuses. For example under the old system, player DS and creature AS progression would look something like this (the numbers themselves are just pulled out of the air, what is important is the magnitude of increase):

Level Player DS Creature AS
16 146 111
17 150 115
18 154 119
19 204 ?(169??)


After reaching level 19 and having access to Wizard Shield, creature AS would need to rise roughly 50 points to stay in line with the growth of player DS. What this means is that losing Wizard Shield (and spells like it) during a hunt would essentially mean death. Having Wizard Shield dispelled would mean death. Anyone that just doesn't get a step bonus spell at level 19 is now woefully undermatched with the critters designed to face a wizard. The same happens to wizards when they reach level 50 and sorcerers/clerics/empaths gets access to WoF.

More importantly, creatures would need to be designed with the assumption that everyone gets Wizard Shield at somwhere around 19 (29 at the latest) because it is possible and people do. This is also what necessitates the heavy reliance on DFredux for squares to survive later on (redux begins to kick in around level 25/25 if I recall correctly) and while still manageable it becomes problematic at levels of 50+ when you throw spells like WoF into the fray. A gradual progression (rather than a step function) allows us to move away from a redux based system and tweak redux accordingly as a result. It also allows us to more fully move to an attrition based combat system. In GS4 DS and AS progression will look more like:

Level Player DS Creature AS
16 146 111
17 150 115
18 154 119
19 158 123


Nilven

Bug? BUG?? What do you mean bug? That isn't a bug, that is a feature.


(Maybe further complaints about these changes should be taken to the Concerns folder?)

imported_Kranar
08-07-2003, 07:45 PM
That's a load of crap and I feel sorry that Nilven has to say it (it's her job).

Bottom line is that a **19** mana spell only lasts 1 freaking minute. The fourth most powerful spell a wizard is expected to know, is some piece of crap that lasts for 1 minute?

Oh... oh... Nilven says that it will help when the following occurs:

"One throws a stone at your head while the other keeps swinging at you. Now would be an ideal time to put up Wizard Shield rather than retreating if you feel that you need additional safety."

If something hurls a boulder at my head, I'm either dead or stunned, most likely dead. Either way I can't cast the spell.

<< Despite what some people may think we don't just throw dice into the air to come up with AS numbers for creatures and then give them that AS. >>

This is exactly what they do, and it's starting to show.

Just ditch the spell altogether. Give us something worth spending 19 mana on, something that isn't another knock down spell or another bolt... you know, something creative, original. I know such concepts are alien to some of the GMs who prefer rehashing the same things, but it's worth investigating.

[Edited on 8-7-2003 by Kranar]

Trinitis
08-08-2003, 03:16 AM
I feel pretty much the same about WoF. If I can't use it normally, then its in no way worth the 40 mana, unless I'm gonna go bust some heads in PvP, and even then, no one is gonna wanna take one someone who throws up WoF unless they have ways to get around it already.

-Adredrin