Katana has variable enchant + depending on grip?

[Zaigh]

I just got a glaes katana and went out fighting and saw that I was getting 10 AS less than I should have. After testing a bit it looks like the katana is giving a lower enchant value if held one-handed. Is this how these weapons work or did I get a dud?

I didn't have a second enchanted katana or bastard sword to test with, but did get a baseline from a regular bastard sword.

Here's what I did to test, all done in same stance:

You are currently holding the bastard sword with two hands.

You swing a bastard sword at a hobgoblin!
AS: +120 vs DS: +5 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +94 = +241
... and hit for 52 points of damage!
Left elbow smashed into a thousand pieces.
The hobgoblin is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

You grip the bastard sword with one hand.

You swing a bastard sword at a hobgoblin shaman!
AS: +120 vs DS: +65 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +43 = +129
... and hit for 14 points of damage!
Slash to the hobgoblin shaman's right leg hits high!
Kinda makes your knees weak, huh?
You thrust with a slim rolaren rapier at a hobgoblin shaman!
AS: +140 vs DS: +65 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +8 = +123
... and hit for 5 points of damage!
Glancing blow to the hobgoblin shaman's back.
That could have been better.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

You are currently holding the glaes katana with one hand.

You swing an enruned glaes katana at a hobgoblin!
AS: +125 vs DS: +53 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +91 = +188
... and hit for 35 points of damage!
Hard slash to belly severs a few nerve endings.
The hobgoblin is stunned!
You thrust with a slim rolaren rapier at a hobgoblin!
AS: +140 vs DS: +31 with AvD: +23 + d100 roll: +82 = +214
... and hit for 24 points of damage!
Smooth slash to the hobgoblin's hip!
Nice crunching sound.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

You grip the glaes katana with both hands.

You swing an enruned glaes katana at a spotted lynx!
AS: +135 vs DS: +42 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +5 = +138
... and hit for 23 points of damage!
Deep cut to the spotted lynx's left hand!
Seems to have broken some fingers too.
The spotted lynx is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Thanks!

[Fallen]

Wild guess. Is the Katana enhancive? If it enhances THW or some other factor that goes into THW AS, that may explain the difference.

[Zaigh]

I can't tell that there are any enhancives on it, and when I had a bard double check it for me all he saw was the +15 and typical katana crit weighting.

Oh, didn't add in. I'm equally trained in THW, TWC, and EW - all at 24 ranks.

Just grabbed a glaes bastard sword to test with, here's what I get from it. Now to figure out why the katana loses 10 AS when one-handed....

You are currently holding the glaes bastard sword with one hand.

Click here for more options.
>
A hobgoblin shaman utters a guttural, primitive prayer.
>
You swing a glaes bastard sword at a hobgoblin shaman!
AS: +135 vs DS: +69 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +46 = +143
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Torn muscle in the hobgoblin shaman's right leg!
You thrust with a slim rolaren rapier at a hobgoblin shaman!
AS: +140 vs DS: +69 with AvD: +40 + d100 roll: +28 = +139
... and hit for 12 points of damage!
Wild slash bounces off the back of the hobgoblin shaman's hand.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
>grip two
You grip the glaes bastard sword with both hands.
>
You swing a glaes bastard sword at a hobgoblin shaman!
AS: +135 vs DS: +54 with AvD: +45 + d100 roll: +70 = +196
... and hit for 68 points of damage!
Spinal cord damaged by smash to the back.
The hobgoblin shaman screams up at the heavens, then collapses and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a hobgoblin shaman.
The dim aura fades from around a hobgoblin shaman.
The light blue glow leaves a hobgoblin shaman.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[Cap'nDrak]

You naturally loose 10 AS for using a katana 1 handed vs. 2 handed. It's part of their mechanics.

[Stry]

You naturally loose 10 AS for using a katana 1 handed vs. 2 handed. It's part of their mechanics.

This.

[m444w]

You naturally loose 10 AS for using a katana 1 handed vs. 2 handed. It's part of their mechanics.

Fairly sure you mean TWC not 2handed.

[Cap'nDrak]

It's the same difference. Two handed grip, or one handed grip.

[m444w]

Hmm... maybe I'm not explaining myself correct, or I'm missing what you're explaining, but...

When you use a new-style katana, the AS is can be determined three ways:

As a 2handed weapon based purely off two-handed weapon skill.

As a one-handed weapon, based on the average of your two-handed weapon skill and ohe weapon skill, but no negative bonus is applied.

Or for TWC/Shield, where it is used as a OHE, and then has a -10 bonus applied because your left hand has something in it, and can only be used in the main hand for twc.

In the original logs, I didn't see him use it as a OHE alone... I only saw it used via TWC and 2handers

[Stry]

Anytime you use a katana with just a 1 handed grip, You lose AvD and DF. When you have something in your offhand(shield, offhand-weapon) it automatically has a -10 AS penalty. Even if you're fully trained for it.

Katanas can't be held in the offhand.

So whether TWC or with a shield. It is still gripped with 1 hand, in your right hand, and taking a -10 AS penalty.
---

With THW and OHE training, you CAN swing a katana with a One-handed grip and nothing in your offhand and not lose 10 AS, but that's pointless. You just settle for lower DF and AvD.

Once you add a shield/weapon you see the -10 AS penalty.

[m444w]

Anytime you use a katana with just a 1 handed grip, it automatically has a -10 AS penalty. Even if you're fully trained for it.

Katanas can't be held in the offhand.

So whether TWC or with a shield. It is still gripped with 1 hand, in your right hand, and taking a -10 AS penalty.

You trained to use a katana? My katana warrior's fixskills needs to be assisted over, it didn't get reset for some reason.

[Stry]

You trained to use a katana? My katana warrior's fixskills needs to be assisted over, it didn't get reset for some reason.

To use a katana as OHE to max benefit you need to be trained in OHE and THW. You will still have a -10 AS penalty anytime you swing a katana as OHE.

You don't need the OHE training to use it THW.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

The explaination I've gotten from GM's on the officials on this subject is that katanas are primarily designed to be used with 2 hands. It's possible to use one with 1 hand, but requires extra training and you are penalized the -10 AS.

And yes, I've 'trained to use a katana' before on various alts. You act like you don't believe me, which is rather amusing.

[m444w]

To use a katana as OHE to max benefit you need to be trained in OHE and THW. You will still have a -10 AS penalty anytime you swing a katana as OHE.

You don't need the OHE training to use it THW.

I don't know how to explain it any clearer.

The explaination I've gotten from GM's on the officials on this subject is that katanas are primarily designed to be used with 2 hands. It's possible to use one with 1 hand, but requires extra training and you are penalized the -10 AS.

And yes, I've 'trained to use a katana' before on various alts. You act like you don't believe me, which is rather amusing.

I don't believe you, because you are wrong:

You grip the mithril katana with one hand.
>stance off
A scarred wild-eyed war troll swings a wickedly curved feras flamberge at you!
You move at the last moment to evade the attack!
>
You are now in an offensive stance.
>kill
You swing a heavy mithril katana at a scarred wild-eyed war troll!
AS: +220 vs DS: +42 with AvD: +25 + d100 roll: +29 = +232
... and hit for 40 points of damage!
Powerful slash just cracks the wild-eyed war troll's shield arm!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>grip katana
You grip the mithril katana with both hands.
>kill
You swing a heavy mithril katana at a scarred wild-eyed war troll!
AS: +220 vs DS: +42 with AvD: +29 + d100 roll: +30 = +237
... and hit for 75 points of damage!
Slash to head destroys the wild-eyed war troll's left eye!
Doesn't do her brain any good either.
The wild-eyed war troll falls to the ground and dies.
The deep blue glow leaves a scarred wild-eyed war troll.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

[rolfard]

oh no he di'int!

[m444w]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dEbE3fGfF-o

Most random youtube video I found on OH NO YOU DI-ENT

[Stry]

I don't believe you, because you are wrong:

When you test something, you should do it right.

When you test using a katana as OHE, you should probably have something in your offhand (Shield or weapon). Otherwise you default to Two-Handed AS with OHE AvD and DF. (logical, since you have two free hands.)



J>grip kat
You grip the black vultite katana with both hands.

You swing a hilted black vultite katana at a rolton!
AS: +179 vs DS: -25 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +68 = +311
... and hit for 191 points of damage!
Wicked slash slices open the rolton's chest!
Heart and lungs pureed!
Sickening!
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

J>grip one
You grip the black vultite katana with one hand.

J>get swor
You remove an ora-tipped black ora short sword from in your crimson silk ataniki.
J>glance
You glance down to see an eahnor-hilted black vultite katana in your right hand and an ora-tipped black ora short sword in your left hand.

J>at rol
You swing a hilted black vultite katana at a rolton!
AS: +169 vs DS: +18 with AvD: +38 + d100 roll: +1 = +190
... and hit for 91 points of damage!
Gruesome, slashing blow to the side of the rolton's head!
Skull split open! Brain (and life) vanishes in a fine mist.
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
The eyes of a rolton momentarily return to normal before going lifeless.
Roundtime: 5 sec.


Hrm. Looks like -10 AS to me.



Edit: Added skills on my little locker warrior for clarification.

Two Weapon Combat..................| 114 28

Edged Weapons......................| 114 28
Two-Handed Weapons.................| 114 28

[Middian]

That is ridiculous; the penalty of having to train in additional THW should be enough. Why on gods earth did they have to throw the -10AS?

[m444w]

Or for TWC/Shield, where it is used as a OHE, and then has a -10 bonus applied because your left hand has something in it, and can only be used in the main hand for twc.

In the original logs, I didn't see him use it as a OHE alone... I only saw it used via TWC and 2handers


To use a katana as OHE to max benefit you need to be trained in OHE and THW. You will still have a -10 AS penalty anytime you swing a katana as OHE.



I tested it correctly, you just can't read... Because again, you tested it with TWC.



When you test something, you should do it right.

When you test using a katana as OHE, you should probably have something in your offhand (Shield or weapon). Otherwise you default to Two-Handed AS with OHE AvD and DF. (logical, since you have two free hands.)


That makes no sense game mechanics wise. You use 2handed skill randomly for OHE AS, but you keep the AvD and DF of OHE?

You don't default to two-handed AS, and it's simple enough to test:

Here my character has OHE skill, but no 2handed skill... So it will use his base 2handed skill when swung 2handed, and then default to this when used one-handed without anything in the left hand if your claim is correct:

You grip the mithril katana with both hands.
>kill rol
You swing a heavy mithril katana at a rolton!
AS: +112 vs DS: +5 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +65 = +211
... and hit for 84 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash to the rolton's left knee!
The rolton collapses to the ground, emits a final bleat, and dies.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

>grip katana
You grip the mithril katana with one hand.

>kill troll
You swing a heavy mithril katana at a long-nosed green forest troll!
AS: +233 vs DS: +61 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +33 = +237
... and hit for 55 points of damage!
Deft slash to the green forest troll's left leg digs deep!
Bone is chipped!
The green forest troll is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.

And here, it does as predicted.

And one with a shield in my left-hand:

>kill troll
You swing a heavy mithril katana at a long-nosed green forest troll!
AS: +223 vs DS: +21 with AvD: +32 + d100 roll: +80 = +314
... and hit for 84 points of damage!
Powerful slash trims the green forest troll's fingernails...
and the remainder of her left hand!
The troll's steel-bound shield falls to the ground.
The green forest troll is stunned!
Roundtime: 5 sec.
R>

[Gelston]

You lost ten AS with something in your left hand though, wasn't that what you were trying to show wrong earlier?

[Stry]

Um. You just proved your first example wrong. I fail to see your point.

In your first example, you used 1 hand with nothing in your offhand: You received no -10 penalty but your AvD and DF were lower.

In your second example you used a shield in your offhand: You got the -10 AS penalty you previously denied existed.

In my example, I used an off-hand weapon: I got the -10 AS penalty you previously denied existed.

It just shows I've been correct the whole time.


TLDR:

Katanas are retarded.

Katanas DO have a -10 AS penalty when used as a OHE.

The disclaimer is that you have to have something in your offhand, otherwise there's no -10 AS penalty but you're just getting lower DF and AvD for no reason and may as well swing it 2-handed.

[m444w]

You lost ten AS with something in your left hand though, wasn't that what you were trying to show wrong earlier?

Stry claimed you lost 10 as no matter how you used a katana onehanded. This is not true. As I originally stated, if you have something in your left hand, you lose the as. Otherwise there is no penalty.

Also, + points to Stry for going back and editing his original post to make it seem like what I was saying made no sense.

[Stry]

That is ridiculous; the penalty of having to train in additional THW should be enough. Why on gods earth did they have to throw the -10AS?

I complained about the same thing on the officials when I wanted to TWC katanas. But you can't because katanas cannot be used as an off-hand weapon.

The answer was that katanas are designed to be a 2-handed weapon but are able to be swung with one hand with a penalty.

It is really mechanically inferior to try to to use one as OHE. All you get out of it is maybe just more style points for a katana and wakisashi (shortsword). Which I've seen a handful of people do.

[Gelston]

Makes sense that katanas would lose DF but not AS, like bastard swords. I guess they just wanted to further set the Two apart.

[m444w]

Katanas would be a lot more mechanically useful if it used OHE or 2handed skill instead of the average between 2handed skill and then the average between OHE and 2handers when used one-handed.

Scimitars would also be more useful if they dropped them an RT class also.

Quite a few slight modifications in weapon bases across the board that would give us a more diverse and useful weapons system.

[Drakefang]

Katanas would be a lot more mechanically useful if it used OHE or 2handed skill instead of the average between 2handed skill and then the average between OHE and 2handers when used one-handed.

Scimitars would also be more useful if they dropped them an RT class also.

Quite a few slight modifications in weapon bases across the board that would give us a more diverse and useful weapons system.

:yeahthat: