8x HCP doubles for similiar level fulls

[whiteflash]

Been using these a long while, great armor, but at this point I feel like the 2% hindrance harms me more than the coverage helps me.

a set of void black leathers
max lightened, full 8x enchants and heavily padded against critical blows

Looking for similar enchant/padding fulls, can toss in coins for nicer stuff of course. Would also trade straight up for 8x HCP fulls. Lemme know.

[Asha]

Been using these a long while, great armor, but at this point I feel like the 2% hindrance harms me more than the coverage helps me.


You're joking right?

[Buckwheet]

Find a paladin....heh

[neimanz1]

i think that is with a paladin already! isn't doubles normally 4 percent?

[Morph]

2% for sorcerers

[whiteflash]

You're joking right?

I am not joking. 2% sucks! Things are not disabled when I want them to be! Gimme fulls!

[Herachio]

Is the only difference between fulls and doubles the AvD all other things being the same in this case? Or do you still get better critic protection on the parts covered by the doubles over the fulls even though they would both be HCP?

[WRoss]

your CVA will be lower, though a sorc shouldn't be having problems with TD.

[Fallen]

Is the only difference between fulls and doubles the AvD all other things being the same in this case? Or do you still get better critic protection on the parts covered by the doubles over the fulls even though they would both be HCP?

You get better DFs/Crit Divisors? on your head in Doubles, as it covers it in leather, as opposed to cloth/robes. That may or may not be a factor in SMR maneuvers, as they are all coded somewhat differently. It definitely factors into AS/DS resolutions, but as others have pointed out, that shouldn't matter too much to a sorcerer. Going from 2% hindrance to 1% hindrance via a Paladin would still likely be enough to drive someone crazy who can't put up with non-tweaked Doubles. Fulls will also be able to get a bit lighter than Doubles, but you're only talking a few pounds.

[whiteflash]

Is the only difference between fulls and doubles the AvD all other things being the same in this case? Or do you still get better critic protection on the parts covered by the doubles over the fulls even though they would both be HCP?

I'd lose the legs/head leather protection/crit divisor and some CvA/AvD I believe, but not much (+2CvA). Gain the 6 action penalty back and lose the 2% hinderance. Still have whatever padding over all areas just cloth HCP legs/head/neck. I have absolutely zero DS/AS/TD issues ever. Maneuvers that RT lock/stun and dispel are what get me. Which is why I'd rather have them disabled first! A good offense is the best defense and all that.

In the style that I hunt and the creatures that I hunt that 2% failure is more of an issue than I would of thought. I miss a 703 cast on a sentry, no good. Don't stun something in the scatter it gets dangerous in a hurry etc. I know the benefits of higher armor and I'm ready to try the zero hinderance route. If I hate it I can always switch back at some point.

By the way, that 2% is the BASE MINIMUM failure possible achieved with everything possible trained/cast, it can not go lower with fluidity. I hunt with a paladin who is rank 4 fluidity and adding that onto doubles does NOT reduce the spell failure further. It can never go below the number listed in the training chart posted on Krakii.

[Morph]

I have 9x hcp fulls in my locker, but I'd want you to add in like 40mil. I'd rather have 9x hcp fulls in there than 8x hcp doubles.

[Fallen]

By the way, that 2% is the BASE MINIMUM failure possible achieved with everything possible trained/cast, it can not go lower with fluidity. I hunt with a paladin who is rank 4 fluidity and adding that onto doubles does NOT reduce the spell failure further. It can never go below the number listed in the training chart posted on Krakii.

Are you 100% on that? Doesn't sound right.

[BriarFox]

Are you 100% on that? Doesn't sound right.

Yeah, armor fluidity works with the base hindrance.

[Fallen]

Yeah, armor fluidity works with the base hindrance.

It can be confusing when you haven't yet reached the min hindrance via your OWN armor use training. It will still only halve the base min, I think, not your actual hindrance.

[Buckwheet]

It can be confusing when you haven't yet reached the min hindrance via your OWN armor use training. It will still only halve the base min, I think, not your actual hindrance.

I admit, I was a bit confused. I forgot about the base min hinderance thing, but I am not sold on how that works.

I only use it on my bard who is fully trained for aug chain and it goes from 8 to 5 with my rank 4 fluidity.

[Fallen]

I use it on Brig as a sorcerer when D is around. I move from 11% Base with 110 armor ranks (9 enhancive), to 6%

[BriarFox]

Yeah, Fallen's right, as far as I recall. If you're not fully trained, it still reduces it by the same amount it would as if you were. So, if it takes your 11% hindrance to 7% (like me in hauberk), it would still reduce my hindrance by 4 even if I had a 30% hindrance (to 26%) because I wasn't fully trained.

[WRoss]

2% hinderance cut in half is 1% hinderance, which is a fumble.

Case solved, move on to gawking at Morph.

[Fallen]

Two separate rolls. The roll for hindrance comes first, 1-100, you can roll a 1 on this roll if you don't have hindrance and your cast will proceed. The second roll is the one which determines a fumble if you manage a 1. If it didn't work like this many would wear heavy armor because they wouldn't really care if their cast which only managed a roll of 6 went through or not.

[whiteflash]

I have 9x hcp fulls in my locker, but I'd want you to add in like 40mil. I'd rather have 9x hcp fulls in there than 8x hcp doubles.

You make me a sad panda, I can't justify 40m to gain 5DS and lose 2% hinderance.


Are you 100% on that? Doesn't sound right.

I am 100% sure on that. Can find you in game tonight to show you if you like. Armor fluidity will not reduce your minimum hinderance below the maximum possible trainable hinderance. For sorcerer circle and double leathers, that number is 2%. Thanks for the bumps, now someone give me some fulls!

[neimanz1]

pretty sure it will drop below min hinderance. my paladin could cast in full plate with 7 or 8 hinderence

[thefarmer]

>wear plate
You don your full plate, deftly adjusting the fastenings for a sure fit.
The plate covers your fist tattoo.
Roundtime: 20 sec.
R>101
You gesture while calling upon the lesser spirits to aid you with the Spirit Warding I spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
[Spell Hindrance for some ruby-veined full plate is 96% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 59]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>armor fluid
You adjust your full plate, making it easier for you to cast spells.
Roundtime: 5 sec.
(RANK 4)
R>
[ Armored Fluidity: +4:00:00, 4:00:00 remaining. ]
>101
You gesture while calling upon the lesser spirits to aid you with the Spirit Warding I spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
A light blue glow surrounds you.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
[ Spirit Warding I: +0:40:00, 4:04:14 remaining. ]
>101
You gesture while calling upon the lesser spirits to aid you with the Spirit Warding I spell...
Your spell is ready.
You gesture.
[Spell Hindrance for some ruby-veined full plate is 88% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 49]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[whiteflash]

pretty sure it will drop below min hinderance. my paladin could cast in full plate with 7 or 8 hinderence

I know paladin hinderance in full plate can drop to 8 % with maximized armored fluidity. But I'm (almost??!) certain I keep my 2% hinderance with double leathers even with armor fluidity up. Though now less certain...will rapid fire test this when I get home tonight.

[Fallen]

It's pretty badass that you can cast minor spiritual in full plate with 10% hindrance as a properly trained Paladin.

[Stry]

Eh, yeah, but it costs you an extra 3 seconds to cast 1603 before every cast.

Self cast 117 is nice, but not as much when it takes you 6 total seconds to cast it.

[Buckwheet]

Depends I guess. With good lore you get it for multiple swings.

[Fallen]

Eh, yeah, but it costs you an extra 3 seconds to cast 1603 before every cast.

Self cast 117 is nice, but not as much when it takes you 6 total seconds to cast it.

Nah, you would actually go below 10% with 1603.

[Stry]

Nah, you would actually go below 10% with 1603.

True. I get down to 3% in half-plate and 4 ranks of fluidity when I toss 1603 on. Without 1603 though, I have something like 86% hinderance with the 100's. I've got 140 armor ranks.

Even with 202 armor ranks and full plate, you don't drop down to less than 80% hinderance in the wild without 1603 up first.

[Fallen]

You need 290 ranks for min hindrance in full plate for the 100's circle. I know Menos did it for 119 and Sentries for a time. Sabreon is likely up there too.

[Asha]

You notice your 2% hinderance on armour when casting only when it stops you from casting a disabling spell.
The chances of that happening and you being able to cast another successful shot 3 seconds later are high.
The chances of a critter catching you at that one precise moment with anything that can hit you (being only a maneuver as a sorc - and a maneuver is only one of up to 3 attacks randomly made by critter, swing / cast / maneuver) is low.
The usefulness of full armour coverage (doubles) compared to partial (fulls) especially when HCP is huge.
The final point I wanted to make is using armor while casting and it causing hinderance at 2% is nowhere NEAR as important as every single time you will ever get hit.. EVER while wearing the HCP doubles, saving you from death.

tl;dr :
You are going to get hit with maneuvers.
Stick with the doubles.
2% hinderance is nothing compared to head coverage.

[WRoss]

You need 290 ranks for min hindrance in full plate for the 100's circle. I know Menos did it for 119 and Sentries for a time. Sabreon is likely up there too.

I had Callinar at 303 armor, though I don't remember hinderance.

[whiteflash]

You notice your 2% hinderance on armour when casting only when it stops you from casting a disabling spell.
The chances of that happening and you being able to cast another successful shot 3 seconds later are high.
The chances of a critter catching you at that one precise moment with anything that can hit you (being only a maneuver as a sorc - and a maneuver is only one of up to 3 attacks randomly made by critter, swing / cast / maneuver) is low.
The usefulness of full armour coverage (doubles) compared to partial (fulls) especially when HCP is huge.
The final point I wanted to make is using armor while casting and it causing hinderance at 2% is nowhere NEAR as important as every single time you will ever get hit.. EVER while wearing the HCP doubles, saving you from death.

tl;dr :
You are going to get hit with maneuvers.
Stick with the doubles.
2% hinderance is nothing compared to head coverage.

I fully well know what I am doing and now I want to see what ZERO hinderance is like. We obviously have a difference of opinion here, I have played with doubles on this char for 4 years. Prior to that in GSIII days I used brig with a level 130 wizard. I KNOW the advantages of heavier armor.

Yes I will be hit by maneuvers, but I think a ton less if I never miss a cast. You start seeing my name in lights a ton more you'll know I was wrong, but I doubt it, I know plenty of people opt for the lighter armors. And with 6 less AP I might even dodge a few more!There are very few things in the game that I can't immediately disable/kill if I don't miss casts! Anyhow, I just wanna try something different see if I like it more, gimme armor!

[GTG]

Evidence

You gesture at a darkly inked fetish master.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 2]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>
Dhairn rushes forward at a darkly inked fetish master with his cold steel lance and attempts a charge!
[Roll result: 110 (open d100: 12)]
... 10 points of damage!
Strike pierces upper arm!
The fetish master is stunned!
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>719 master
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Dark Catalyst...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a darkly inked fetish master.
d100 == 1 FUMBLE!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

[whiteflash]

This will be my last post here for a bit, just wanted to clarify for people hinderance and armored fluidity.

You work your way out of a set of void black leathers.
>wear leath
You work your way into a set of void black leathers.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
R>704 dhairn
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Phase...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Dhairn.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>704 dhairn
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Phase...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Dhairn.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 1]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>nod
You nod.

>armor fluid draithe
You adjust Draithe's void black leathers, making it easier for him to cast spells.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Dhairn, your Armor Specialization training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Armored Fluidity fluidity 4

Available Armor Training Points: 10

You gesture at Dhairn.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>704 dhairn
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Phase...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Dhairn.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 2]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>;magic

- Minor Spirit:
102: Spirit Barrier - 2:40:51
105: Poison Resistance - 2:41:05
107: Spirit Warding II - 2:41:13
120: Lesser Shroud - 2:41:29

- Minor Elemental:
401: Elemental Defense I - 3:03:36
406: Elemental Defense II - 3:03:43
414: Elemental Defense III - 3:03:51

- Sorcerer:
712: Cloak of Shadows - 2:38:29

- Arcane:
1712: Spirit Guard - 0:14:02

- Armor Specialization:
9507: Armored Fluidity - 3:54:48

- Council of Light:
9906: Sign of Thought - 2:05:22
9909: Sign of Staunching - 0:14:20

[Fallen]

Honestly, I would bug that. It is not how the ability is supposed to function. If you want, I can X-post this on the officials and see if Finros can get it fixed.

[audioserf]

No 425/430 up? Ouch, why!

[GTG]

I fail. Like this guy; 8x HCP doubles for... 05-26-2011 10:39 PM You fail to provide evidence of getting hurt. Did you get hit, die, survive due to padding? What's you're point?

[Riltus]

Armored Fluidity, Rank 4 (40%) is not sufficient to reduce 2% spell hindrance to 1%.

The fluidity reduction to base hindrance is calculated as follows:

Base hindrance - trunc(Base hindrance * fluidity rank%)

Fluidity, Rank 4 = .4 (40%)
Base sorcerer circle spell hindrance w/double leathers = 2%

2 - trunc(2 * .4) = 2% hindrance (since 2 * .4 truncates to zero)

With Fluidity Rank 5 = .5 (50%):
2 - trunc(2 * .5) = 1% hindrance

So, you should be able to reduce sorcerer circle hindrance in double leathers to 1% with Fluidity, Rank 5. It would be interesting to see that tested.

Mark


This will be my last post here for a bit, just wanted to clarify for people hinderance and armored fluidity.

You work your way out of a set of void black leathers.
>wear leath
You work your way into a set of void black leathers.
Roundtime: 8 sec.
R>704 dhairn
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Phase...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Dhairn.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

>704 dhairn
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Phase...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Dhairn.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 1]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>nod
You nod.

>armor fluid draithe
You adjust Draithe's void black leathers, making it easier for him to cast spells.
Roundtime: 5 sec.

Dhairn, your Armor Specialization training is as follows:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Armored Fluidity fluidity 4

Available Armor Training Points: 10

You gesture at Dhairn.
Nothing happens.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>704 dhairn
You begin drawing a faint, twisting symbol while softly intoning the words for Phase...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at Dhairn.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 2]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>;magic

- Minor Spirit:
102: Spirit Barrier - 2:40:51
105: Poison Resistance - 2:41:05
107: Spirit Warding II - 2:41:13
120: Lesser Shroud - 2:41:29

- Minor Elemental:
401: Elemental Defense I - 3:03:36
406: Elemental Defense II - 3:03:43
414: Elemental Defense III - 3:03:51

- Sorcerer:
712: Cloak of Shadows - 2:38:29

- Arcane:
1712: Spirit Guard - 0:14:02

- Armor Specialization:
9507: Armored Fluidity - 3:54:48

- Council of Light:
9906: Sign of Thought - 2:05:22
9909: Sign of Staunching - 0:14:20

[GTG]

Damn, thanks Mark. Will be a while before I start going for more armor, but definately be nice to know. Preciate you dropping the maths.

[GTG]

Proof is in the pudding

Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a darkly inked fetish master.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 1]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
(Forcing stance down to guarded)
>
Your disk arrives, following you dutifully.
>
A Vvrael destroyer swings a crackling black steel maul at a darkly inked fetish master!
AS: +454 vs DS: +648 with AvD: +31 + d100 roll: +80 = -83
A clean miss.
>
Dhairn thrusts with a silver-inlaid cold steel lance at a Vvrael destroyer!
AS: +658 vs DS: +353 with AvD: +35 + d100 roll: +63 = +403
... and hits for 158 points of damage!
Incredible shot clean through the throat severs the spine!
The Vvrael destroyer crumples to the floor motionless.
>mast
Wait 1 sec.
>
You don't have a spell prepared!
>mast
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Dark Catalyst...
Your spell is ready.
>
You gesture at a darkly inked fetish master.
[Spell Hindrance for a set of void black leathers is 2% with current Armor Use skill, d100= 2]
Your armor prevents the spell from working correctly.
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.
>mast
A darkly inked fetish master claps its palms together, momentarily uniting its glowing tattoos before forcefully thrusting its hands forward toward you!

Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath your feet! One of the thorns jabs into you!
... hits for 20 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Minor puncture to the right leg.
You are knocked to the ground!

[Overlordz]

The usefulness of full armour coverage (doubles) compared to partial (fulls) especially when HCP is huge.


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe HCP on partial armor such as fulls covers everywhere.

[Fallen]

Correct, the padding itself goes everywhere, you just drop down to the next lowest type of protection in terms of other armor benefits.

[phantasm]

Padding and all armor benefits except crit divisor everywhere?

[Fallen]

Padding and all armor benefits except crit divisor everywhere?

I'm fairly sure that is how it works. If you were in a HCP Metal Breastplate, you would get the crit divisors of Plate and HCP on your Chest, Abs, and back, and the crit divisors of Chain everywhere else with HCP. The AvD doesn't vary based on location of strike, nor would CvA.

[Asha]

Padding and all armor benefits except crit divisor everywhere?


The fulls are cloth protection anywhere they don't cover compared to doubles.
They still are crit padded, but lower AsG.