Official: Strathspay on Sorcery Updates

[Fallen]

Here's your appropriately-dated Friday the 13th update.

As I think I mentioned earlier, the reason Balefire isn't out yet is that we wanted to introduce the AS booster at the same time. The reason the AS booster hasn't been introduced yet is because I had intended to package it with a bunch of other stuff for which I keep revisting the drawing board. Rather than hold everything up, though, I'm going to start with a couple pieces that people have been patiently waiting for. Here's a little more insight into what's been going on.

715 is being expanded. My goal is to eventually add a bunch of new curses, nifty spell-like effects that have a certain usefulness in combat, but might not be considered to be the most worthy of spell slots in and of themselves. Some curses will be more powerful than others, requiring further spell/skill training. Many of the new ones will be simply out of the reach of non-sorcerers to cast.

As before, only one curse will be active on a target at a time, but sorcerers with enough skill will be able to combine two or even three curses into one cast for the same mana cost. By using a little preparation and forethought, casters can focus on a particular curse (or a combined one) and get a slight TD pushdown when casting it, while at the same time streamlining and simplifying the necessary typed commands. All of these complicated tricks will be handled through a new CURSE verb which is also on the way.

One of the new curses will be the old familiar spell of Nightmare. We're adding a few new nightmares for you to torture your friends with, as well as the ability for players each to have a customized nightmare that they write themselves. This will be a service that any GM can choose to do, and I'm hoping that it will be a fairly commonly available thing if players want it. Casters with enough skill will be able to pick the nightmare that the victim sees, instead of their usual "personal" nightmare.

Another of the new curses is the one which I expect to be the most popular. A few of you clever individuals surmised that the new AS booster would be included in Curse, and surely enough it is. Here's a portion of the help text for the Curse of the Star:
For every person and creature (and plant, and thing), there was a particular star that was directly overhead in the sky at the place and time when he or she (or it) was born (or spawned, or made). Ancient traditions hold that the characteristics of each individual's star have an influence on their temprament, gifts, and life events. By cursing that star, sorcerers can take away some of that person's power. They can even claim that power for their own.
Characters and creatures under the effect of this curse will experience a reduction in general AS equal to 10 plus 1 for each 3 sorcerer spell ranks above 15 that the caster knows, capped at level. In addition, creatures will occasionally lose an opportunity to attack during a combat round.
Also, if the caster is a sorcerer, he or she will gain an equivalent amount of spell AS when the target dies. This AS bonus will last for 15 minutes plus 30 seconds per level of the creature. This duration is stackable.


I'm purposefully holding back some extra surprise details from the outline here so you all can be pleasantly surprised when this stuff finally hits the street.

Everything is subject to change, of course, but what you see is written in ...er, quick-drying cement. I'm focusing on getting this much out in the next few weeks to get the ball rolling again.

-Strath
"I just want to bury the hatchet. So hold still for a sec..."
*

The part about adding new curses "over time" worries me, but the info is neat. Hopefully, it will get released.

[whiteflash]

Characters and creatures under the effect of this curse will experience a reduction in general AS equal to 10 plus 1 for each 3 sorcerer spell ranks above 15 that the caster knows, capped at level. In addition, creatures will occasionally lose an opportunity to attack during a combat round.
Also, if the caster is a sorcerer, he or she will gain an equivalent amount of spell AS when the target dies. This AS bonus will last for 15 minutes plus 30 seconds per level of the creature. This duration is stackable.

This is huge in both AS boost and duration. I hope it goes through for all of those who like to use bolts. I'll never use it myself, but if that is the actual coding it is amazingly NOT irritating.

[Fallen]

38 AS gained at cap with 100 spell ranks, as discussed. The issue is you can only have so many curses going at one time. So it is not so much an AS booster, as it is a creature Debuff that is passive. I don't believe I will be using that curse either. Most will use the Warding Penalty one, I wager. We can't really know what "slight" TD reduction is, but hopefully it wont be less than the -25 we can manage now. I use that frequently on my hunts.

[whiteflash]

38 AS gained at cap with 100 spell ranks, as discussed. The issue is you can only have so many curses going at one time. So it is not so much an AS booster, as it is a creature Debuff that is passive. I don't believe I will be using that curse either. Most will use the Warding Penalty one, I wager. We can't really know what "slight" TD reduction is, but hopefully it wont be less than the -25 we can manage now. I use that frequently on my hunts.

I reckon it is totally meaningless for how I hunt, but I know others do use bolts and when I was in the 10-30 lvl range I did too. It is too bad if they will limit the 'buff' to not using the other aspects of the spell. Though I suppose back handed spells are par for the course in sorc dev!

[Fallen]

Eh, we can't judge the spell until it is released. I think it is sort of an assume aspectish type ability. You need to pick and choose what you want, but we aren't limited to 2 minute timeframes.

[subzero]

38 AS gained at cap with 100 spell ranks, as discussed. The issue is you can only have so many curses going at one time. So it is not so much an AS booster, as it is a creature Debuff that is passive. I don't believe I will be using that curse either. Most will use the Warding Penalty one, I wager. We can't really know what "slight" TD reduction is, but hopefully it wont be less than the -25 we can manage now. I use that frequently on my hunts.

"As before, only one curse will be active on a target at a time, but sorcerers with enough skill will be able to combine two or even three curses into one cast for the same mana cost. By using a little preparation and forethought, casters can focus on a particular curse (or a combined one) and get a slight TD pushdown when casting it, while at the same time streamlining and simplifying the necessary typed commands. All of these complicated tricks will be handled through a new CURSE verb which is also on the way."

I think you misread some of that. It looks as though the curses that require a CS vs TD roll (ie all but -TD) will be able to push down the target's TD when the caster "focuses on a particular curse". I'm guessing that may come via something similar to the cleric spells that can be charged for hard RT. The normal -TD curse should still exist and we will have the ability to combine the effects of multiple curses together. That would mean that we can put -TD, -AS/+AS, and, say, itchy all into one 15 mana curse. Also, the AS booster curse isn't one you'll have to use all the time, either. Stack the duration up and forget about it until you need to refresh it. For once, I don't see anything being lost here.

[Doldrum]

as well as the ability for players each to have a customized nightmare that they write themselves. This will be a service that any GM can choose to do, and I'm hoping that it will be a fairly commonly available thing if players want it.

This is the part Im really excited about. There's lots of creatively evil people and I can only imagine what they come up with. Im already having fun trying to think up one for my sorcerer, it should be great.

[Fallen]

"As before, only one curse will be active on a target at a time, but sorcerers with enough skill will be able to combine two or even three curses into one cast for the same mana cost. By using a little preparation and forethought, casters can focus on a particular curse (or a combined one) and get a slight TD pushdown when casting it, while at the same time streamlining and simplifying the necessary typed commands. All of these complicated tricks will be handled through a new CURSE verb which is also on the way."

I think you misread some of that. It looks as though the curses that require a CS vs TD roll (ie all but -TD) will be able to push down the target's TD when the caster "focuses on a particular curse". I'm guessing that may come via something similar to the cleric spells that can be charged for hard RT. The normal -TD curse should still exist and we will have the ability to combine the effects of multiple curses together. That would mean that we can put -TD, -AS/+AS, and, say, itchy all into one 15 mana curse. Also, the AS booster curse isn't one you'll have to use all the time, either. Stack the duration up and forget about it until you need to refresh it. For once, I don't see anything being lost here.

Do you read the spell as being a SELF-cast ability, or an OTHER-cast ability. Do we get all of these effects by simply treating this spell like any other buff spell, we just augment our bonus, or must we target individual creatures? If so, that would not make for much of a boost over what we have now. It seems odd creatures would all immediately suffer a TD penalty from our OWN self-targetted spell, doesn't it?

[msconstrew]

If they nerf 715 in guarded, I don't know how I'm going to hunt.

[Asha]

You and many others will definitely have to revise strategy. I would have felt the same with any sorcerer under 50

[Inspire]

I hope it's a nice AS boost. Sorcerers would be a lot more fun if they have a decent bolt. (Has to have a cheap mana cost though.)

[msconstrew]

You and many others will definitely have to revise strategy. I would have felt the same with any sorcerer under 50

But... but... she is almost 60! ;)

[subzero]

Do you read the spell as being a SELF-cast ability, or an OTHER-cast ability. Do we get all of these effects by simply treating this spell like any other buff spell, we just augment our bonus, or must we target individual creatures? If so, that would not make for much of a boost over what we have now. It seems odd creatures would all immediately suffer a TD penalty from our OWN self-targetted spell, doesn't it?

It's not a self-cast ability the way I'm seeing things. What I'm envisioning is anything we cast 715 at is hit with a curse. That curse can have multiple effects bundled into the one curse, granting all of the effects at the same time. If one of those is the Curse of the Star, the target's AS drops and then when that creature is killed we gain the appropriate spell AS buff. At that point, the buff would be applied like any other self-cast spell, but we don't have to do anything further. The big difference is the delivery mechanism (curse target, kill target, gain buff) and a slightly new method of determining duration, which has the creature level as a component rather than spell ranks. Working like that, we can apply the curse to a few creatures, kill them, and enjoy a rather large duration on the buff aspect of it.


If they nerf 715 in guarded, I don't know how I'm going to hunt.

I don't see that going away. If they take that out, I imagine there will be a LOT of unhappiness. As I mentioned before, I'm thinking this might actually be pure gain for the profession.


I hope it's a nice AS boost. Sorcerers would be a lot more fun if they have a decent bolt. (Has to have a cheap mana cost though.)

It's going in 713, so it's in the same range as the other top-tier bolt/ball spells.

[Asha]

If it is a nerf to guarded cast then just 710 for another few trains.

[Fallen]

If we have to cast at targets to get our "AS boost" then that is retarded. I doubt warriors would like feint being discribed as an AS boost because it lowers creature's DS. I suppose it won't matter if there is no cast rt or mana cost in repeatedly targetting creatures, but otherwise, how can they describe it as an improvement?

[Archigeek]

If we have to cast at targets to get our "AS boost" then that is retarded. I doubt warriors would like feint being discribed as an AS boost because it lowers creature's DS. I suppose it won't matter if there is no cast rt or mana cost in repeatedly targetting creatures, but otherwise, how can they describe it as an improvement?

Actually your better warrior comparison is coup. It does two things in a similar way: coup success level determins level of AS bonus that lasts for about a minute. All observing critters get a corresponding reduction to their AS. So sort of the same. It can be a lot of work for a bonus, but a bonus is a bonus.

I kind of like the creativity in what they're doing here, even if it seems like a lot of extra work for an AS boost.

[droit]

From what I understand, you cast the curse at the first critter, then you kill it, then you get an AS boost for the rest of the hunt. Sure, its no cast-and-go, but it doesn't sound too complicated. It's neat and sorcererish, IMO.

[BriarFox]

From what I understand, you cast the curse at the first critter, then you kill it, then you get an AS boost for the rest of the hunt. Sure, its no cast-and-go, but it doesn't sound too complicated. It's neat and sorcererish, IMO.

^

I think you guys are reading his post wrongly, too. You should only have to kill one creature to get an AS boost of up to 40 for a good 30 min or so.

[Fallen]

From what I understand, you cast the curse at the first critter, then you kill it, then you get an AS boost for the rest of the hunt. Sure, its no cast-and-go, but it doesn't sound too complicated. It's neat and sorcererish, IMO.

If it is sustainable without having to be a constant mana expenditure then I will be happy. Obviously, you can see the problems with a spell being sold as an AS-booster, when it is in actuality a setup spell. I just hope that isn't the case. We've already a ton of those.


Actually your better warrior comparison is coup. It does two things in a similar way: coup success level determins level of AS bonus that lasts for about a minute. All observing critters get a corresponding reduction to their AS. So sort of the same. It can be a lot of work for a bonus, but a bonus is a bonus.

I kind of like the creativity in what they're doing here, even if it seems like a lot of extra work for an AS boost.

True, Coup might make for a better comparison. I wouldn't swallow Coup being sold as the solution for warriors to make up for AS discrepencies anymore than you or other warriors would. If you could Coup 1 critter, then get the AS bonus for the rest of the hunt, though, that could certainly work.

[Archigeek]

If it is sustainable without having to be a constant mana expenditure then I will be happy. Obviously, you can see the problems with a spell being sold as an AS-booster, when it is in actuality a setup spell. I just hope that isn't the case. We've already a ton of those.



True, Coup might make for a better comparison. I wouldn't swallow Coup being sold as the solution for warriors to make up for AS discrepencies anymore than you or other warriors would. If you could Coup 1 critter, then get the AS bonus for the rest of the hunt, though, that could certainly work.

I think one curse/death and then you're set for the AS booster duration, which for a sorcerer is probably going to be as long as a hunt lasts. And yeah, I wasn't saying that coup is the answer for warrior AS deficiencies by any means. With a duration of only 1 minute, it is something of a perk, not a consistant hunting tool. But from what I gather from your curse revision, other than coup's anemic duration, it's kind of similar. Unlike feint which is purely a set up maneuver.

[subzero]

^

I think you guys are reading his post wrongly, too. You should only have to kill one creature to get an AS boost of up to 40 for a good 30 min or so.

At cap the duration is even better. One dead, formerly-cursed critter at 100 = 65min. I like the concept meself. Now I just wish they'd release it while I'm hunting stone critters.

[droit]

Characters and creatures under the effect of this curse will experience a reduction in general AS equal to 10 plus 1 for each 3 sorcerer spell ranks above 15 that the caster knows, capped at level. In addition, creatures will occasionally lose an opportunity to attack during a combat round.
Also, if the caster is a sorcerer, he or she will gain an equivalent amount of spell AS when the target dies. This AS bonus will last for 15 minutes plus 30 seconds per level of the creature. This duration is stackable.

At cap, with 100 sorc spell ranks, against a 100th level creature, you'd get 38 AS for 65 minutes. That means you'd only have to star-curse and kill 4 like-level creatures to stack 4 hours of AS bonus.

I think it's a really cool implementation. I see one potential flaw though: you'd still have to be able to ward the victim with a CS/TD roll in order to get your bolt AS boost. Do any sorcerers tank their CS, or is it a non-issue?

[Fallen]

They do, but they use Stance Guarded curse, which automatically lowers TD by 25 to make up for it. The question is what will happen to that particular aspect of Curse.

[Axhinde]

So you have to spend mana in combat, at least 60 for a 4 hour buff? Meh.

Edit: Spending mana on a node pre-hunt is much more preferable.

[subzero]

I see one potential flaw though: you'd still have to be able to ward the victim with a CS/TD roll in order to get your bolt AS boost. Do any sorcerers tank their CS, or is it a non-issue?

Couple things. First is that he mentioned being able to pushdown the target's TD in some way. Depending on how effective that turns out to be, warding like-level creatures may very well not be an issue. Another option, though certainly less favorable, would be to simply own a couple slightly lower level creatures to get the buff.

[Nattor]

By using a little preparation and forethought, casters can focus on a particular curse (or a combined one) and get a slight TD pushdown when casting it, while at the same time streamlining and simplifying the necessary typed commands. All of these complicated tricks will be handled through a new CURSE verb which is also on the way.

Am I the only one that hopes this translates into no more changing stances to use different curses?

Something like this maybe?
Curse set TD
Curse set AS Booster
Curse set nightmare
Curse set itchy
Curse set favorite three?

Its alot to ask for but hey..

[Fallen]

I think that's the idea. There will be something like a CURSE verb to handle all of the different forms of it. Kinda has to be if we're going to be blending curses.

[msconstrew]

^

I think you guys are reading his post wrongly, too. You should only have to kill one creature to get an AS boost of up to 40 for a good 30 min or so.


This is how I interpreted it, as well. Although I still balk at the thought of wasting 15 mana at the beginning of a hunt for a 13 mana spell that will not crit whatever I am hunting. For a non-COL sorc, I don't see this being really viable until you 2x HP or you're in your 80s or above.

Actually, I realize I sound really sour and bitter here, so I'll try to be more positive. My main concern is that most other sorcerers aren't in Voln and they do triple train, so they've got a higher CS than does Jules. I currently deal with that by cursing in guarded and using wands, etc. But I still have mana flow issues, even at 57, so while I love the idea of Balefire and this AS booster... I am not sure it's going to work for me anytime soon. However, the AS boost to Curse will be useful to the extent that I can use gold/crystal/whatever wands during a hunt and retain the same benefit there.

So I AM excited about these changes, and I'm also a little leery of whatever they're planning on doing until I actually see it.

[Murkshev]

Just think of this though. You are in voln, and I hope have a focus on spiritual spells then? If so web bolt will be awesome when you hunt the Keen near Illy then. I am just saying. Also area web then fire spirit, just as awesome. I am not a CoL sorcerer as you know, seeing this curse AS booster will be nice. Also I never fully 2x spell aiming, been working on it. Mostly for the implosion now for Jarl's and Elders in the bowels. But I was bolting in camps in my 30's with spirit strike and sunfist sigils.

Also at Ebon Gate they had jewelery that can hold blue crystals. Those can be charged by mages and helps to reduce your mana consumption. Also I worked on getting mana regen enhansives and been making mana regen and mana well potions though alchemy. So there are ways to get the mana you need without being in CoL or being 2x in harness power. Just stop being a slacker! You know what I am talking about.

[Rimalon]

Is it possible that the curse-implemented Bolt AS booster will just be an effect, and not a SPELL effect?

More like a warcry, in that it wouldn't be able to be dispelled and calculated into spellburst, etc?

If that would be the case, I'd much prefer it to an actual AS booster that would take up a spellslot.

[subzero]

Although I still balk at the thought of wasting 15 mana at the beginning of a hunt for a 13 mana spell that will not crit whatever I am hunting. For a non-COL sorc, I don't see this being really viable until you 2x HP or you're in your 80s or above.

Have you tried phasing non-corporeal undead?


Actually, I realize I sound really sour and bitter here, so I'll try to be more positive. My main concern is that most other sorcerers aren't in Voln and they do triple train, so they've got a higher CS than does Jules. I currently deal with that by cursing in guarded and using wands, etc. But I still have mana flow issues, even at 57, so while I love the idea of Balefire and this AS booster... I am not sure it's going to work for me anytime soon.

My sorcerer in Prime is a Voln master around level 82-84. You already know the counter to being in Voln for the most part. You need a lot of mana. I 2x HP, 2x EMC, 1x SMC, and 2x spells. The lack of CS is made up for by being able to uphunt and use high level spells pretty much at will.

I personally wouldn't do Voln without stacking up on mana skills. That's not to say it won't work, but you'll have to use different tactics that may not include some of the higher level spells. One of the good things about sorcery is that there are a lot of different "styles" and tactics that can be employed. Some builds will simply have more options than others.


Is it possible that the curse-implemented Bolt AS booster will just be an effect, and not a SPELL effect?

More like a warcry, in that it wouldn't be able to be dispelled and calculated into spellburst, etc?

If that would be the case, I'd much prefer it to an actual AS booster that would take up a spellslot.

There's an interesting idea. I think the effect clerics get from, uh, 312? I think it gives a temporary boost to mana or something along those lines... anyhow, that might be a better comparison. Anyone happen to know if that is dispellable?

[Danical]

I hope the syntax for the verb is something like this:

CURSE SET ONE {curse1} {curse2} {curse3}
CURSE SET TWO {curse1} {curse2} {curse3}
CURSE SET THREE {curse1} {curse2} {curse3}
CURSE {target} {curse1} {curse2} {curse3}

>prep 715
>curse {target} {set}
OR
>curse {target} {curse1} {curse2} {curse3}

[Reltov420]

A nice win for sorcerers. Awesome.

[audioserf]

Stuff like this is where I think sorcery ends up tripping over its own dick a lot of the time. Spells that are awesome in theory, but add some element of inconvenience/tedium in the name of being "sorcererish". It's great that this boost/bolt are happening, it would be greater if the AS boost was a prep/cast/stack thing like literally every other profession's buffs are.

[Drew]

Dude, you only need to cast it on one creature to have the AS boost your whole hunt. It's neat, who cares.

[crb]

And its confirmed. Verb based curse, curse buffs, and bolt as spell. Another notch for the bedpost.

I don't mind the implementation at all. My original proposal was just making it self cast but a chance to backfire, which would have been harsher.

And no one says you have to ward a like level critter to get the bonus. A critter 10 levels younger is going to be a guaranteed hit for only 3 minutes less duration than a like level critter. At cap, you can kill your last critter of the hunt this way and probably still have the spell up for the next hunt. Or, you can wander out and kill something easy close to town briefly while resting to reboot your duration.

Or.... animate something, cast the spell on it, and kill it just before you start your hunt.

My original proposal also only called for the ability to do one at a time, being able to do multiple is much nicer as well. So this, all told, turned out better than it could have.

I expect this, fully fleshed out, would be the type of thing that will get some people to reactivate.

[Stry]

Either way, it's nice to see progress being made.

It's a tricky balance between turning into an RSN project of forever and half-assing it and then taking even longer to roll out changes/improvements/nerfs.

I like the ideas, though I've only played a Sorcerer to lvl 20... it might give me a reason to break him out more often.

[Murkshev]

Right. I'll believe it when I see it Stry.

[Fallen]

Once it goes out into the test instance it is only a matter of time. Before that, I would agree with you.

[Fallen]

Random answers:

Balefire will be able to ignite webs, as long as I remember to make the update. I already talked to the webmaster about it... (ba doom boom)

I'd like to have the Star Curse AS bonus work in CvC, but I reserve the right to savagely frustrate and annoy those who would abuse this in lame ways. It'll be really easy for me to tell.

The state of access to the MnM list isn't changing. I'm aware of all of the discussions surrounding the comparison of MnM to guild illusions and certain base spells. Now's not the time for new information on that topic, sorry.

Concerning sacrifice, I had an idea a long time back (around the last time sacrifice got updated) that we could take away the hard cooldown and replace it with the ability to sacrifice for fractional returns. So for example you would be able to sacrifice 10 minutes into the cooldown and get back 50% of the mana, and the cooldown would reset. Wait 15 minutes, sacrifice for 75% mana, cooldown resets, etc. I'm not yet completely sure it's such a great idea, mainly because SP costs would really pile up compared to the benefit of the convenience. Racial regen rate differences would become even more important than they already are. What do you folks think?

-Strath
"I just want to bury the hatchet. So hold still for a sec..."
.

[Nattor]

meh sacrifice..


The maximum amount of mana transferred is [20 + (level of target)]. For instance, the successful sacrifice of a level 50 creature will return (20+50=70) 70 mana.

Easy fix. Make this the formula. { (level of target) + (level of target x 1.5) }

[Jaimaltz]

Easy fix. Make this the formula. { (level of target) + (level of target x 1.5) }

Or you could be less of an idiot and just write 2.5 x level of target.