Video shows beheading of American captive in Iraq

[Hulkein]

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/05/11/iraq.main/index.html

[Edaarin]

I read about that. It's going to have exactly the effect it was intended to.

[i remember halloween]

no it won't. this type of stuff doesn't work, all it does is make people like me enough more blood thirsty and have less regard for collateral damage. this is just about the stupidest thing they could do. we seek revenge after acts like this, not understanding.

Iraqis will never be able to have a democracy and make it work. These people are not worth our time as Americans. We got Saddam and his sons and with that we should instate an iron fisted dictator that is a puppet of the United States. It's the only way to deal with these savages.

- Arkans

[Parkbandit]

Agreed. This only takes attention away from the Iraqi jail injustices and the world's outcry against the US and puts it right back where it belongs.. against these thugs.

Never accused Al Queda as bright though.

[imported_Kranar]

Originally posted by i remember halloween
no it won't. this type of stuff doesn't work, all it does is make people like me enough more blood thirsty and have less regard for collateral damage. this is just about the stupidest thing they could do. we seek revenge after acts like this, not understanding.

I see it already has had its intended effect.

[i remember halloween]

agreed as well, however we will never be chased out. we may give up and leave because the staff realizes its a waste of time and resources to try to civilize the uncivilized, but we will surely not leave when stuff like this happens. their best bet would be to just stop fucking around and plan a huge attack against whatever government we install.

[i remember halloween]

Originally posted by Kranar

Originally posted by i remember halloween
no it won't. this type of stuff doesn't work, all it does is make people like me enough more blood thirsty and have less regard for collateral damage. this is just about the stupidest thing they could do. we seek revenge after acts like this, not understanding.

I see it already has had its intended effect.

no it didn't. i never thought of them as civilized. all this does is reaffirm. but you'll see who'll end up paying the most for this act.

[imported_Kranar]

<< no it didn't. i never thought of them as civilized. all this does is reaffirm. but you'll see who'll end up paying the most for this act. >>

The war in Iraq is quite possibly one of the best things to happen to Al Qaida. It has given them a new base of operation, a new reason to fight against the U.S. and recruit new members into their operation.

This video does exactly what Al Qaida wants, it makes the U.S. hate them. You think Al Qaida wants to be understood by the U.S.? You think Al Qaida wants the U.S. to someday make peace with it? Heck no, Al Qaida wants the U.S. to hate it as much as it possibly can, that's how it survives. It wants the U.S. to hate it to the point where it will simply lose its mind and take extremely barbaric measures to fight against it. And that seems to be happening more and more.

If you honestly think these guys video taped a beheading, of all things, to somehow gain understanding and sympathy, then you're sorely misunderstood. They want you to hate them with the rage of an animal because then you'll start acting like one and they can continue perpetuating this world crisis.

[imported_Kranar]

Originally posted by Arkans
Iraqis will never be able to have a democracy and make it work. These people are not worth our time as Americans. We got Saddam and his sons and with that we should instate an iron fisted dictator that is a puppet of the United States. It's the only way to deal with these savages.

- Arkans

Then what exactly did you acheive?

It would be virtually impossible at this point to instate an iron-fist dictator in Iraq. If all you want to do is leave Iraq and let the "savages" do whatever they want, then you essentially leave Iraq in a worse condition than it was in before.

Since the justification of finding WMD has been abandoned by even the government at this stage, that means you essentially faught this war for nothing.

I mean sure, if this war was simply target practice then like you said, get out and let the savages run in their land. But if there was some sort of objective behind this war, then perhaps it's best to acheive it.

[i remember halloween]

we don't fight with swords or fists anymore. pissing us off is not going to make the generals order soldiers take a hill no matter the cost. what it does is change the strategy that will used when handling potentially hostile people (practically everyone in iraq). they are trying to turn it into another vietnam which will not happen because the US isn't handcuffing itself to the floor now.

it's kind of ironic that really the only people that can stop this are the ones who are going to end up paying the highest price in the end... the innocent iraqi civilians. it's too bad, but this is often the cost of inaction.

[i remember halloween]

Originally posted by Kranar
I mean sure, if this war was simply target practice then like you said, get out and let the savages run in their land. But if there was some sort of objective behind this war, then perhaps it's best to acheive it.

it was acheived.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by i remember halloween]

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Being different doesn't equate them to being savages. Have a little compassion for other human beings. Our CAUSE is noble, and the people there, on both sides, don't deserve any injustices such as beheading, naked pictures, sodomy, rape, etc, etc, etc.

I'm for the war, but I don't hate the people of Iraq. Get a grip and realize this isn't some game where pressing reset lets you start over.

[imported_Kranar]

Al Qaida makes a gruesome tape intentially killing an innocent civilian, the U.S. responds by killing a bunch of innocent civilians, because heck to get these gorillas colateral damage is inevitable, and the end result is that the survivors of the U.S. response have dead family members, and now hate the U.S. and sympathize with Al Qaida.

That's good business for Al Qaida.

If that was what you wanted to acheive, then I agree... mission accomplished. Problem is that you also acheived the goal of the enemy.

This war couldn't have been more unnessecary... sending in over 150000 troops to remove 3 men from power.

[i remember halloween]

that is not the objective that i was referring to, but anyway, what do you propose be the response?

[imported_Kranar]

The simple response is to not allow this video tape to get to you. Not in the sense that you shouldn't be saddened by it and seek justice. But in the sense that instead of allowing yourself to act in outrage and fury over it, let it serve as a reminder that you are not these animals, and hope to never become one of them.

[Ravenstorm]

And also to keep in mind that our military investigations revealed that at least two Iraqis were murdered by some of our soldiers. Murdered. Their word.

Further, one of the photos is reported to be pictures of wounded men and corpses, one of which shows a soldier smiling and giving the "thumbs-up sign," leaning over a grey, decomposing corpse.

By all mean, condemn Al-Quaeda. Personally, I'd love to see that guy lying in a ditch. But our own hands aren't clean either so be just as angry at that.

Raven

[Souzy]

Saw it earlier. I cried, that is horrible. And what our soldiers did to them is horrible as well.

Edited to add that we wronged too.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Lalana]

[TheEschaton]

I agree with Kranar, in that what you think their objective is, and what their objective actually is, are two vastly different things.


Al Qaeda is not looking to destroy the United States. It knows it is not capable of that. On the other hand, it is not seeking to be understood and accepted by the United States, either. Their goal is simply to be martyrs at the hands of the big, bad, evil empire. The whole point is to instigate America into being shown as an intolerable cruelty on the world, oppressing people everywhere.

That was the goal of 9/11, and yanno what? I will say this....Al Qaeda seems to know the psychology of America better than we do.

-TheE-

Raven you forgot that there are now some 35 civilian contractors from Haliburtan<sp> alone that have been MURDERED over there.

What those seven soldiers did was horrid and wrong. The public outcry against that by both our government and the public is extremely loud. Where are the Arab's condemning this murder? I want to know where the public outcry of the Muslim community is. Where was the public outcry two weeks ago when a pregnant Jewish women and her four children were murdered in Israel? Each child getting shot in turn, then the mother was shot in the stomach to kill the child, followed by a bullet in her head.
Why has the Palestine authority not come out against that? Why has not ONE Arab leader come out against those acts?

[DeV]

Were angry, they're angry. I think mission has been accomplished on both ends. Idiocy and a lack of morals on the part of the soldiers involved and pure hatred and disregard for humanity on the part of Al-Qaida. Equally disgusting in my eyes. Al-Qaida are sick animals who will take advantage of everything Americans do to recruit more members. Those pictures are probably now being used as propaganda for their "struggle". And the be-heading truly sickens me, but I would never use that as a base to hate an entire population of people caught in the cross fire.

Bullshit TheE, we have oppressed nobody.

[TheEschaton]

Where was the public outcry two weeks ago when a pregnant Jewish women and her four children were murdered in Israel?

Since the second Intifada started in the late 90s, 2 Palestinians have been killed for every Israeli. And that's the ratio of civilians to civilians - not Palestinian militants to Israeli soldiers. You throw in the actual combatants, and the ratio is skewed even more heavily on the Palestinian side. Where's the outrage over that? Why isn't THAT condemned? Why is Ariel Sharon, who has been charged with war crimes and acts against humanity in an international court, allowed to govern Israel? If you're looking for hypocrisy, Edine, you don't have to limit yourself to just one side.

The difference is, though, when the PLO doesn't say something, it's an indication of their silent support for the killing of Israelis. When Israel doesn't say anything and is called on it, it's "liberal hysteria" and the "left wing media doing their job", according to people like you.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

I'm not saying we've oppressed anybody....Al Qaeda simply wants to create the impression that we are.


And in the Arab world, that impression runs pretty much rampant. And it's starting to spread in Europe too. Therefore, I would say Al Qaeda has achieved their purpose pretty well.


-TheE-

No man, the point of Al'Q is to destroy western civilization. They are religious zealots. Reality has little to no bearing on their view of the world and what is possible.

That said, on topic: Good for them. They have succeeded in ensuring the death of themselve and probaly most of the people close to them, not to mention a direct contradiction of what islam itself preaches. Go them.

[Scott]

Did anyone actually see the video?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
Where are the Arab's condemning this murder? I want to know where the public outcry of the Muslim community is.Don't talk to a lot of Muslims, do you.

[Weedmage Princess]

Edine, that comment was just flat out silly.

A lot of people in that area of the world simply can not stand up and protest the actions of Al Qaida and other fanatic terrorists in the region. Why? Because these people are more powerful than they...and the minute they open their mouths to speak against them, they die.

As someone who constantly pointed out that our invasion of Iraq was to free the people from an oppressive dictator, I'd expect you to know that much.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
Raven you forgot that there are now some 35 civilian contractors from Haliburtan<sp> alone that have been MURDERED over there.

Wrong. I have forgotten absolutely nothing. Unlike you however, I don't agree that it's right for us to do it but wrong for them. By all means, condemn the murder. Condemn the barbarity. But condemn it on both side of the fence when it happens.

Their side did it. Our side did it. It's equally wrong no matter who does it. To try to justify our troops committing atrocities in response to their atrocities is to make yourself no better than them.

I'm not saying turn the other cheek, mind. The one who held that knife should be tried and punished. And the US soldier who murdered the Iraqi should be tried and punished. That's what a country of laws does. That's what a country that's supposedly civilized does. That's what a country that is supposedly fighing in the cause of freedom, democracy, justice and the rule of law does.

I forgot absolutely nothing. I just refuse to jump through their hoops. Especially now when America is LESS safe than before the war on Iraq started. If you want to guarantee Al-Quaeda gets all the recruits it wants, react in anger and hatred. I'm sure even Bush is too smart to do that and if he's not, his advisors are.

Seek justice? You betcha. Revenge? That's been going on for decades already, if not centuries. And look where it's gotten everyone.

Raven

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Did anyone actually see the video?

It's on the web somewhere but I haven't gone looking. The news (rightfully) won't show the whole thing.

In the beginning, the show Berg sitting there and identifying himself. Cut to him tied, kneeling on the floor in front of five masked men. A speech in Arabic saying the predictable. Then the news cuts off.

They said what happens though. Knife to the throat and they decapitate him.

Raven

[Scott]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Did anyone actually see the video?

It's on the web somewhere but I haven't gone looking. The news (rightfully) won't show the whole thing.

In the beginning, the show Berg sitting there and identifying himself. Cut to him tied, kneeling on the floor in front of five masked men. A speech in Arabic saying the predictable. Then the news cuts off.

They said what happens though. Knife to the throat and they decapitate him.

Raven

Yeah I saw it.... Wasn't very pretty. It's really a shame, on both sides. How can you say "Hey, those Arabs derserved to die in prison." Then turn around and say "Hey, this guy didn't deserve this!" It's a real shame that a guy that had nothing to do with fighting in the war had to die like that....

[Scott]

Originally posted by Omens
I think everyone who is aganced the war in this country should be sat down and forced to watch that. And then, be told that could have easly been them on vacation, or one of there kids overseas at school, and if they still dont see why we went to war, Then they should be shot in the fuckin face.

I'm not "aganced" the war, but none the less, this would probably give people a reason why we SHOULDN'T be there. If we weren't there, this probably wouldn't have happened. This was makes it MORE difficult to travel over seas on vacation.

[Mint]

Dear God, I feel sick to my stomach. The whole thing just saddens me.

[Ravenstorm]

Omens, the war against terror != the war against Iraq.

Al-Quaeda had /nothing/ to do with Iraq while Hussein was in power. Only once we took him out did they move in. They have another entire country now because of America. I think it's safe to say that the majority of people who are against the war in Iraq were in favor of the war against Afghanistan and the Taliban.


Originally posted by Gemstone101
It's a real shame that a guy that had nothing to do with fighting in the war had to die like that....

Yes, it is...


GENEVA (AP) - A Red Cross report disclosed Monday said coalition intelligence officers estimated that 70-90 percent of Iraqi detainees were arrested by mistake and said Red Cross observers witnessed U.S. officers mistreating Abu Ghraib prisoners by keeping them naked in total darkness in empty cells.

How many of those mistakes are dead now? Or tortured? Or just forced to jerk off for the camera? There's lots of shame to go around and that's something the dogs of war need to remember before climbing on their high horses and waving the flag of righteousness. That particular flag is stained.

Raven

[ThisOtherKingdom]

If anyone is to blame for the beheading, it is the detestable acts photographed and committed by the American soldiers. Obviously both of the acts are dispicable, but can anyone remind me what happened to the Asian hostages a while back?

I don't see how this war can be compared to Vietnam, because there was a lot of preconceived hatred towards Middle-Eastern people after 9/11. What I mean is, I'm sure there are a lot of soldiers who joined for that reason alone, and are retaliating in their own way for the attack in New York. It is just going to be one horrible act after another, and I don't see an end in sight.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Omens
I think everyone who is aganced the war in this country should be sat down and forced to watch that.Right, because killing is wrong, horrible, and disgusting... unless we're killing Iraqis. Glad we cleared that up.

[Meos]

If you can.... don't watch that video... All it did was fill me rage.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

It won't fill me with rage. I don't hold Nick Berg's life any higher than the thousands and thousands of humans who've been killed already in this war. It's all a shame, no matter how you look at it.

So where's the uncensored video found?

[Meos]

check your u2u.

[imported_Kranar]

Please use U2U to disclose the location of what I can only assume is a very graphic video.

Meos beat me to it... but anyways, thanks.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Mint
Dear God, I feel sick to my stomach. The whole thing just saddens me.

I concur.

[Miss X]

Originally posted by Omens
Right, because killing is wrong, horrible, and disgusting... unless we're killing Iraqis. Glad we cleared that up.
---

I never said I had a problum with anyone killin anyone else. I'm all for it. It's the reason I was speaking of.
If it was up to me, I'd have droped the bomb on all them sand *******. Got rid of all of'm in one shot, Then started on all the ones in our country.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Omens]

.....
Wow Omens, you have left me almost speechless and pretty damn disgusted.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Omens
Right, because killing is wrong, horrible, and disgusting... unless we're killing Iraqis. Glad we cleared that up.
---

I never said I had a problum with anyone killin anyone else. I'm all for it. It's the reason I was speaking of.
If it was up to me, I'd have droped the bomb on all them sand *******. Got rid of all of'm in one shot, Then started on all the ones in our country.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Omens]

Ok, well the only good from your diatribe is making it easy for me to dismiss you as ignorant beyond belief and not worth my time to try and educate.

Oh, and you should be banned from breeding.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by The Edine
What those seven soldiers did was horrid and wrong. The public outcry against that by both our government and the public is extremely loud. Where are the Arab's condemning this murder?

People are very similar around the world Edine. Just as we here may hear of a plane crash in Istanbul where 240 are killed, the key line in the broadcast here in the US would be "...and two Americans were on board...". It's human nature to worry about your own first.

And although I would dearly love to be able to believe that the responsibility for the psychologocal abuse and torture inflicted on those Iraqi prisoners was solely that of a few enlisted personel, common sense does not allow that. There are simply too many photographs and apprently according to Rumsfeld, video to come that exist and were widely known. This leads me to see only two things as possible. Either the military was horribly lapse in their responsibility to see to the humane treatment of those prisoners, or what I see as more likley, that it was allowed as a method of interrogation with the misguided hope to get information faster.

Neither is acceptable and neither limits the culpability to just those soldiers photographed.

[Tendarian]

Im going to hope Omens was so outraged by the video he let his emotions speak instead of his head. My first reaction was extreme anger and a kill em all attitude as well but thankfully reason came back after a few minutes of thinking.

I was watching Fox News(yeah yeah i know) this morning and they had a reporter in Baghdad and he said the reaction of the Iraqi civilians he talked to was disgust at the video as well. That made me feel a lot better. They cant control the extremists in their country any more than we can control those soldiers who did Al Qaida a favor by abusing Iraqis. I hope we bring everyone involved in these abuses and atrocities to justice. Wrong is wrong. For the ones comitting murder i hope the death penalty will be an option of course.

[Tendarian]

This leads me to see only two things as possible. Either the military was horribly lapse in their responsibility to see to the humane treatment of those prisoners, or what I see as more likley, that it was allowed as a method of interrogation with the misguided hope to get information faster.


Did you see the,hrmm i think it was a general, on tv yesterday? He was vietnamese i think they said and he is known to be very honorable. They said his reputation was beyond repute and he said it was definately A in your scenarios. I tend to believe this guy until given information otherwise.

Where did I say what the Americans did was right? What pisses me off is WE are expected to apologize for things done by Americans to all of the Arab world. Where are the leaders of the Arab world to appologize to us? Why the fuck has the king of Jordan not condemned this yet? Why has the president of Egypt not done the same?

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by The Edine]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Being different doesn't equate them to being savages. Have a little compassion for other human beings. Our CAUSE is noble, and the people there, on both sides, don't deserve any injustices such as beheading, naked pictures, sodomy, rape, etc, etc, etc.

I'm for the war, but I don't hate the people of Iraq. Get a grip and realize this isn't some game where pressing reset lets you start over.

Please don't equate the beheading of an innocent man to the humiliation of prisoners in jail. They are completely different and worlds apart.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I'm not, I was speaking to someone above me saying we should just kill them all or leave the savages or something like that. I'm filled with anger and want blood having seen the sensored version, I'd love to see the 5 men unmasked before they themselves were executed. But I'm not translating that to killing every dark skinned person I see like some have in this thread.

SOME of the humiliation of prisoners I'm ok with. The unseen murders and rapes, I'm not. No one deserves that.

[Weedmage Princess]

I won't be watching the video. I know what happened, that's bad enough.

As far as Omens saying "we should be there and anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be shot in the face.." ...reality check, Omens. We have no business over there in Iraq. Our business is in Afghanistan, the Sudan and other areas where we KNOW Al Qaida operatives are. This whole "Saddam has WMDs" battle cry was nothing but a farce to blow smoke over another agenda.

People want to point the finger for Nicholas Berg and other other POWs (cause you know there will be more) at the American soldiers who abused those Iraqi prisoners...however, point the finger at George W. Bush. I mean, the government's stance on this complete "mis-call" is "We received faulty information." ....I have a hard time believing the CIA and FBI, capable of things that are unimaginable to most people...would be able to make a blunder like that. And let's look at the cold, hard facts here. Great, we removed Saddam from power, that's outstanding. However, innocent Iraqis are still dying every day, our soldiers half a year post Saddam-capture are still over there risking their lives...American civilians over there trying to help rebuild the country are being executed. Plus, now we're stuck between a rock and a hard place because we *can't* pull out now. Doing so will only let the terrorists believe they've won and will enable them to commit more attrocities against the innocents there just trying to live their lives. Yep, everything's pretty much the same as it was before...only thing is it's not Saddam and his sons wreaking havoc...it's his loyalists and other extremists from other countries...some who purposely went to Iraq after our invasion for this sole purpose--making things as they are. Someone tell me just how head and shoulders the situation is now better than prior to our invasion?

I'm no Kerry fan, but I honestly believe things will not get any better until Bush is out of the office.

[Parkbandit]

Omens is an idiot.. that is all.

If you wish to view the full video, which I believe every adult should.. you can do so by visiting the "Schnitt show" website and clicking on the link.

And yes I know SHM.. I was just using you to express my disbelief about people equating the two situations. Completely different.

[Tendarian]

On an unrelated note since someone brought up Bush as the bad guy i heard Bush put sanctions on Syria for allowing people across the border into Iraq. Do we already have sanctions on Iran or are they next? If someone would have asked me i would have assumed we already did have sanctions on both of these countries. Didnt Bush call them part of the axis of evil?

[Weedmage Princess]

I haven't heard anything like that Omens, where Saddam said that. If so, then I'll have to retract my statement and eat some humble pie. But all I remember is our president saying that Iraq had WMDs and would be giving them to terrorists to use against America and American interests abroad. It was that constant thing he kept saying that had me initially in support of him and the war.

Tendarian, I don't know about Iran, but I do know Syria is a part of the Axis of Evil. They've been a haven for terrorists and anti-American sentiment for a long time now...I can remember back to the whole Libya-Khadafi (sp?) thing, hearing their name mentioned.

[Chadj]

(Gonna be honest up front.. I didn't read anyone else's reply.)

I have to say, I saw this coming.. After I saw the news about the video's of the American's abusing those prisoners, I said, word for word, "I would hate to be the next American captured". Personally, I believe, that those few, stupid American prison guards, are basically to blame for the beheading. Eye for an eye is what the terrorists are thinking. "Well, if the americans pull bullshit like that, lets cut off a prisoner's head".


<as always, the above is my opinion, and only my opinion, whether it is well informed or not.>

[Weedmage Princess]

I think most people said that, Chadj. I know I did. But you know, they would have killed the American POWs anyway, I think. Maybe a few would have not, but for the most part...they hate Americans so much...prior to that, I think it would have happened anyway. It was just fuel to the fire.

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
I think most people said that, Chadj. I know I did. But you know, they would have killed the American POWs anyway, I think. Maybe a few would have not, but for the most part...they hate Americans so much...prior to that, I think it would have happened anyway. It was just fuel to the fire.

Oh, yes, I know.. And Im not saying what they did was right at all.

Perhaps they would have killed him anyways, perhaps not... But I will bet all of my money, that if they were gonna kill em anyways, they wouldn't have beheaded him and then put up the video for people to see had the incident at the prisons not happened.

[Tendarian]

I agree with Weedmage here. The reason the photos of the prisoner abuse was so horrible is because they can make more moderate muslims into extremists. The extremists are always gonna be extremists and they would have probably done this anyway,a cheap excuse is always nice though.

Ive seen the video now and the one thing im grateful for is that it seems Mr Berg didnt know he was going to be executed like he was until right before the end or he has HUGE balls and more bravado than i do.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by The Edine
Where did I say what the Americans did was right? What pisses me off is WE are expected to apologize for things done by Americans to all of the Arab world. Where are the leaders of the Arab world to appologize to us? Why the fuck has the king of Jordan not condemned this yet? Why has the president of Egypt not done the same?

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by The Edine]
The Leaders of the various middle eastern countries mentioned don't really owe us any apology as the terrorist slime that killed this poor man were not operating under their aegis. This does not mean I would not very much love to hear some condemnation from those leaders, but is not owed to us.

The US soldiers in question obviously were in fact acting in the name of the US government and that is why we should have and did in fact apologize for such behavior.

We apologized because we should.

We apologized because we are better than that.

[Xcalibur]

Casualties of war.

Sux but it's that.

Still, Irak is the home of animals.
:thumbsdown:

[theotherjohn]

let me remind you

The United States and it's allies are in Iraq to be targets. Instead of focusing on attacking in Conus the attacks will focus here in Iraq.

7 Allies died here today. Here means within 25 miles of my location. One on video really does not change the mood of my soldiers at all

[Anebriated]

You can all say whatever you want about what happened in Iraq about Nick Berg. Say watching the video filled you with rage, or that you refuse to watch the video, even that it served its intended purpose, but war is never bad until it hits near home. Nick Berg was a resident of West Chester, PA. He graduated from my high school. He graduated a year or two before I was a freshman but the effect is the same on everyone around here. His family lives no more than 5 minutes from my house. A good friend of mine was his neighbor.

Knowing this, that he was a civilian in Iraq rebuilding the communication towers and that he was from my hometown, leaves me with a much larger sense of rage and hatred than I have had to date. What hurts me even more is that the United States government plays these games with the public of America by showing them select videos and footage. They know that by showing us the video it will increase the country 'unity' again and make people feel that the war is justified again. We will never win this war, and yet they keep going causing innocent people such as Nick Berg to get the shitty end of the stick.

Personally I dont think we should be, or ever should have been in Iraq. Bring our soldiers back.

[Chadj]

I agree, the US should not be in Iraq.. Just my opinion. I also find it amusing that Bush is asking the UN to start stationing a peace keeping force, so that US troops can slowly be pulled out. (yes, that is the very same UN that he said "Meh, fuck you, we are attacking anyways" to) It's a good idea, but I just find it ironic that they sent their soldiers in, and apparently didn't give a damn/were too stupid to see what would happen afterwards. Personally, I would almost consider Bush a murderer because of this. ::shrugs::

<Again, my opionion, blah blah blah>

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Tendarian

Did you see the,hrmm i think it was a general, on tv yesterday? He was vietnamese i think they said and he is known to be very honorable. They said his reputation was beyond repute and he said it was definately A in your scenarios. I tend to believe this guy until given information otherwise.

I watched the testimony as well and he did seem to be very reputable to me. More so than the political flunky next to him. However. You knew there was a however right?

I don't think he knows the whole story. Plus, I think he was trying to put things into a somewhat better light than they were. I don't think he was lying, mind you but one bit of testimony really caught my attention.

It was right when he was talking baout a 'failure of leadership' and one of the Senators was questioning him about specifics. (And remember, the reports talked about a widespread problem among 13 different prisons not just the one with the infamous pictures.) And the Senator basically pointed out that what has been reported implied a systematic pattern of abuse (or words to that effect) and asked if he, the general, included that in 'a failure of leadership'. The answer was yes. (I'll have to find the specific part int he transcript later.)

It sounded to me like he classified the approval and authorization of the abuse as a failure of leadership on the officers' parts which, technically, it certainly is.

Raven

[Atlanteax]

Iraq is part of the greater campaign of the War against Terror.

Occupying Iraq gives the US a base to pressure Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia, and others to confront Al Qaeda within their borders.

Currently most of them, particularly SA (which is now fighting a civil war) are confronting AQ themselves, rather than have the US "intervene" from Iraq.

Iraq is the geopolitical heart of the MiddleEast. An US base there gives the US tremendous leverage to use against all ME countries.

The US has scored many strategic victories... in the regard of Iran playing nice, Saudi Arabia fighting its civil war... Syria trying to yield... Pakinstan is fighting terrorism (despite half-assed) ... other Muslim countries, such as Indoseia are cooperating.

By Invading and occupying Iraq, the US has drove home the perception in the Arab world that the US will military intervene if it percieves a threat within that country.

It is in those countries' best interest to cooperate with the US as opposed to resisting the US.

.

AQ has failed in 2 primary goals. It was unable to unifiy the Arab world in opposition to the West (US) ... instead, it has moved the Arab world (particularly the governements) closer to the US ... which results in a tactical victory for the US.

AQ also has failed to overthrow any current Arab government. An important objective was to try to get Arab governments to fear the extremists causing civil unrest (or rebellion) more than they fear the US intervening... thus prompting them to resist the US.

However, as was earlier stated, the Arab governments are moving closer to the US, and are cracking down on extremists.

AQ is losing the "War on Terror" to the US.

.

However, there is a significant problem... as everyone knows, in Iraq.

The US fucked up in Iraq. Rumsfield is likely to blame, for nixing the Army's original plan to send 400k troops to US. The Pentagon originally predicted that there would be some resistance, and that significant troops will be required to enforce civil order if the US was going to "redefine" Iraq (by completely removing all Baathist elements).

However, the US instead sent 100k, hoped for no resistance, did not get the Shiite support it anticipated (which made dismissing all the Baathists a mistake).

The US has now given up on its original goal to redefine Iraq. I would expect to see Bush define a new strategy for Iraq by the end of May, where-upon Rumsfield will be replaced (the excuse is that to execute a different strategy, a different person is necessary for the job).

The US can still salvage the Iraq situation, if it can successfully incorporate Baathist/Sunni elements into trying to maintain civil order.

The Shiites have collectively contained Al-Sadr because they fear the US reaching out to the Sunnis (which would defeat any chance of total control of Iraq by Shiites).

The US military has established a precedent by allowing former Baathist/Sunni generals maintain a small force in restless cities (Falijah and now Najah), which will likely be the overall Iraq policy.

.

Hopefully the transition period of June 30th will go smoothly... allowing the US to get out of Iraqi politics (which it has lost the opportunity to re-define, thanks to Rumsfield and co) and allow Iraqis to govern themselves...

... while maintaining a military base of operations in Iraq to continue to have leverage over the rest of the MiddleEast.

The strength is that the US can send troops, aircraft, etc, from Iraq to elsewhere, w/o having to ask permission for over-flights from other countries (ie from the Persian gulf over Pakinstan into Afghanistan ... or from SA to have Navy in SA's water to attack Iran).

With such a base, the threat of US military intervention is made very real which is crucial to pressuring Arab states to cooperate with the US's goal of destroying AQ and winning the "War on Terror".

.

Meanwhile, AQ will end up nullifying all the strategic victories that the US has won so far... if the Iraq turns into a true nightmare situation for the US. Currently Iraq is merely a significant problem, but still remains relatively under control. Anyone who thinks it is a "Vietnam quadmire" is a fool.

The US currently has a weak momentum in Iraq, where it is attempting to salvage the situation by allowing Iraqis to police/govern themselves in the problematic cities ... to faciliate handing over "control" of the government ... where if Iraqis need US troops to maintain civil order (if they can't do it themselves) will ask for help of US troops ... so that the US can return its focus to the overall "War on Terror" likely to SE Asia next.

AQ is trying very hard to turn Iraq into a true disaster for the US (for whom an initial success turned into weak positive strategic gain) so as to keep the US "stuck" in Iraq, and unable to respond elsewhere in the world (ie SE Asia and Africa).

.

If the transition goes smoothly... look for the US to renew the assualt against AQ with a vengence.

The US does need to be in Iraq as it is critical to the overall "War on Terror". The problem is that the US significantly underestimated the enemy and blew a golden opportunity.

Nonetheless, the US will learn from that experience (as it did from Vietnam) and ideally will not repeat it elsewhere.

The US still has the upper-hand... the risk is the US defeating itself. The US will ultimately prevail in Iraq, provided that we do not see another Al-Sadr and the like truly throwing Iraq into a "Vietnam quadmire".

.

Presently the definition of a successful Iraqi campaign is a stable Iraq with the US military still maintaining operations there (for leverage over the whole of the MiddleEast).

Currently, the US appears to be set to accomplish that definition (pending an Iraqi disaster) and will then renew the global campaign, to successfully defeat AQ.

AQ is currently being very slowly strangled... its only chance is chaos in Iraq. If there is no chaos, the US will have effectively won "the War on Terror" as there really is nothing AQ can do post-Iraq to defeat the US.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Atlanteax]

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Atlanteax]

[Tendarian]

We will never win this war, and yet they keep going causing innocent people such as Nick Berg to get the shitty end of the stick.

As horrible as it is remember Mr Berg went over there with his own free will. Like Tsa'ah's friend in a thread recently he wanted to make money and i would say had to have known the risks. I feel much sorrow for the guy but remember he went over there by choice and so part of the shitty stick is his.

[Atlanteax]

Btw, any responses in my post should probably be made in response to same post that I started a new thread with.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
I watched the testimony as well and he did seem to be very reputable to me. More so than the political flunky next to him. However. You knew there was a however right?

I don't think he knows the whole story. Plus, I think he was trying to put things into a somewhat better light than they were. I don't think he was lying, mind you but one bit of testimony really caught my attention.

It was right when he was talking baout a 'failure of leadership' and one of the Senators was questioning him about specifics. (And remember, the reports talked about a widespread problem among 13 different prisons not just the one with the infamous pictures.) And the Senator basically pointed out that what has been reported implied a systematic pattern of abuse (or words to that effect) and asked if he, the general, included that in 'a failure of leadership'. The answer was yes. (I'll have to find the specific part int he transcript later.)

It sounded to me like he classified the approval and authorization of the abuse as a failure of leadership on the officers' parts which, technically, it certainly is.

Raven

I agree.. but up to a certain point. I do believe the MPs WERE in fact acting out on orders from either their superior officer or from CIA/Special Ops people there. There is too much about muslem culture to think that the MPs came up with the demeaning acts on their own.

But.. I do believe the buck stops well short of Rumsfeld. You may not like him, but to blame him for this is plain stupid.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Tendarian

We will never win this war, and yet they keep going causing innocent people such as Nick Berg to get the shitty end of the stick.

As horrible as it is remember Mr Berg went over there with his own free will. Like Tsa'ah's friend in a thread recently he wanted to make money and i would say had to have known the risks. I feel much sorrow for the guy but remember he went over there by choice and so part of the shitty stick is his.

I'll grant you that.. Mr. Berg DID in fact put himself at risk... He came to Iraq to help the Iraqi infrastructure get back on it's feet...

BUT NO ONE SHOULD EXPECT TO BE DECAPITATED ON VIDEO AND SENT OVER THE INTERNET.

His part on that shitty stick is about this much > <

[Tendarian]

BUT NO ONE SHOULD EXPECT TO BE DECAPITATED ON VIDEO AND SENT OVER THE INTERNET.


He still had to have known death was a possibility. Does it matter in what way he died or that it went over the internet?


His part on that shitty stick is about this much > <

I agree,but the rest of the shitty stick is reserved for the people who did it not the US.

[Tendarian]

Yaknow. After We put my brother in the ground on thursday. And I have a few weeks to get over it. I might have a little less passion about subjects like this.

If he says somethings on an internet forum that arnt very nice in response to his brother dying i wont look down on him. I dont know how id respond either but if this is the worst thing that he does i hope everyone here can see it was through grief colored glasses.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Tendarian]

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Omens
regardless of what the media says, you need to keep your mouth shut and just support your country, you seem to forget, however fucked up what they did in that prison, your country and it's soldiers are the people who give you the blanket of freedom you live under, that their the people bleeding and dieing, so you have the right talk down on the war/country/government or it's actions - what have you.
So, we should just shut up and support our country. Who's to say the Iraqi government didnt rule their people in just that way. "Shut up and support us or else". This is a democracy, and we are free thinking people, and we are allowed to be for or against. I support the soldiers because of what they face on a daily basis. I support them for sacrificing their lives for our freedom. In war, death is to be expected on both sides. However, that doesnt mean I will blindly follow my government regardless of if I agree with the situation or not.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

On a side note, they're discussing the same topic on the vegetarian board I visit. I found this a little amusing, someone said, "They're animals, and we should treat them like animals."

To quote Alanis Morrisette, "Isn't it ironic, don't you think?"

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
But.. I do believe the buck stops well short of Rumsfeld. You may not like him, but to blame him for this is plain stupid.

Do I blame Rumsfeld for the abuse? No.

I blame Rumsfeld and Bush for the entire situation however. We should never have been there. From everything I can see, America is much less safe now than it was before we invaded Iraq.

The aliances with our allies is weaker, the anti-America view among in the Mid-East and elsewhere is stronger, and now Al-Quaeda has simply perfect recruiting material. Further, they have a brand new country now to replace Afghanistan. As a terrorist group, they are stronger now than pre-Iraq.

This is Bush's fault, pure and simple. Iraq was no threat to us. Iraq had no WMD. Iraq had no ties to Al-Quaeda. We took Hussein out and now Al-Quaeda is stronger. Hundreds of our soldiers and civilians are dead unnecessarily because of this war. Thousands of innocent Iraqi are dead because of this war. America's reputation is tarnished because of this war.

And it is the fault of Bush and his administration. Had we never invaded Iraq, NONE of the above would have happened. We could have, and should have, pursued Al-Quaeda more fully in Afghanistan - and don't try to say we don't need more forces there since Bush tried to convince Spain to move the troops they were pulling out of Iraq to Afghanistan.

We could have and should have spent the money there in that war and in rebuilding Afghanistan - which we promised to do - and bringing democracy there - which we promised to do. Instead, we made the country safe for warlordism: the 'democratic government' we put in governing exactly one city and needing constant guarding by US soldiers so they don't get shot.

Possibly Atlanteax is correct in that we need a base in Iraq and that was the purpose of this war. Maybe not and I'll most likely respond in the othe thread once I give his post more thought. But if that's the case, then Bush lied not once but twice. If it's about a base then it's not about WMD and it's not about freeing Iraqis from tyranny.

So yeah, I blame Rumsfeld. And I blame Bush. I have almost no doubt now that the 'Mission Accomplished' banner was meant fully and seriously. Bush's mission was to get Hussein out of power. Mission accomplished. But there obviously was no realistic plan on what to do next. Iraq is in near chaos, people are dying on both sides at an ever increasing rate, and the hatred between the sides is growing which only leads to more atrocities.

Yeah, mission accomplished. If I believed in a deity, I'd be praying that the American citizens figure out at whose feet to lay the blame. Considering recent poll numbers, they might finally be getting it.

Raven

[Wezas]

Originally posted by DarkelfVoldNo, I don't cut slack to anyone who throws around racist slurs out of anger. I can understand Omen's anger and hurt about losing a family member and I feel for him. But If your gonna say it, Im gonna have something to say about it.

Agreed, especially when he imbeds a racial slur within another. Uncalled for. Go calm down and eat a sandwich, Omens.

http://members.cox.net/legendwezas/omens2.jpg

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Elrodin
Personally I dont think we should be, or ever should have been in Iraq. Bring our soldiers back.

Nick Berg (the man beheaded) did believe we should be in Iraq. He voted for Bush, and was for the war in Iraq.

Just some info that wasn't in the article on CNN but I read elsewhere (AOL story.)

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
on the vegetarian board I visit


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAAAA

[TheEschaton]

To try and understand what thier up agenced and what thier doing over there, regardless of what the media says, you need to keep your mouth shut and just support your country, you seem to forget, however fucked up what they did in that prison, your country and it's soldiers are the people who give you the blanket of freedom you live under, that their the people bleeding and dieing, so you have the right talk down on the war/country/government or it's actions - what have you.

To say "My country, right or wrong" is not only wrong, it is anti-democratic.

-TheE-

[Anebriated]

quote:

[quote]Originally posted by Elrodin
Personally I dont think we should be, or ever should have been in Iraq. Bring our soldiers back.

Nick Berg (the man beheaded) did believe we should be in Iraq. He voted for Bush, and was for the war in Iraq.

Just some info that wasn't in the article on CNN but I read elsewhere (AOL story.)

[Hulkein]

Yes, I read the you personally part, thanks for the bold though. I had read the information later on AOL and was going to post it anyway, your post was just a good one to quote to show the relevence of my post. Not meant for you to take it as an attack on your beliefs or anything.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Hulkein]

[Tendarian]

No, I don't cut slack to anyone who throws around racist slurs out of anger. I can understand Omen's anger and hurt about losing a family member and I feel for him. But If your gonna say it, Im gonna have something to say about it.

Do you cut anyone slack for anything then? When you are fighting with your girlfriend and she calls you a <insert worst insult to you here> do you hold it against her forever? Anger and grief make you say things you dont mean in pure frustration. Maybe its cause im older or maybe its cause i tend to do this myself so i understand it better but to me it is the same as when Skirm said we should level fallujah(SP?) after those one workers were killed and paraded around. I doubt you think she is a ignorant woman seeing as you both agree on many issues(i dont either btw). And she wasnt dealing with a brother dying either.

[imported_Kranar]

Racists comments go against the TOS of these forums and may lead to a suspension of membership. Please keep this rule in mind when debating on this public forum.

Also, please report such incidents using the report feature. It makes life very difficult when ones racist comment gets transferred into the responses of other peoples' posts.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by Kranar
Racists comments go against the TOS of these forums and may lead to a suspension of membership. Please keep this rule in mind when debating on this public forum.

Which is why Omens used the ****** instead of typing it. I guess i should assume you are talking to Vold.

[imported_Kranar]

Masking an offense is not a legitimate workaround to the rule.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

[Xcalibur]

About the video, I watched it 4-5 times..

(don't read further if you don't want to know)


When they put the guy on the side, then taking the knife and cutting his throat, you hear him exhale his last breath. Don't know for you, but I remember knowing that the carotide, when cut, could literaly let 1-2 litters of blood out of the body.

There was none or few.

And after, they cut his skin to uncover the spinal cord and cut it, isn't that cord attached? I mean, is it that easy to remove a head from a body with a simple knife?

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tendarian

No, I don't cut slack to anyone who throws around racist slurs out of anger. I can understand Omen's anger and hurt about losing a family member and I feel for him. But If your gonna say it, Im gonna have something to say about it.

Do you cut anyone slack for anything then? When you are fighting with your girlfriend and she calls you a <insert worst insult to you here> do you hold it against her forever? Anger and grief make you say things you dont mean in pure frustration. Maybe its cause im older or maybe its cause i tend to do this myself so i understand it better but to me it is the same as when Skirm said we should level fallujah(SP?) after those one workers were killed and paraded around. I doubt you think she is a ignorant woman seeing as you both agree on many issues(i dont either btw). And she wasnt dealing with a brother dying either. I am referring to the degrading term that was used. It was not necessary in his expression of anger. I took offense to it. I didnt say that anyone else had to, or needed to. But, I did hence my comment. I didn't even read what Skirm said so what bearing does that have on this discussion? Its not OK in any situation to me. That includes having an arguement with my girlfriend as she happens to be caucasion and we are very candid in our discussions on race. As a black person I found offense to the term regardless of who it is directed at. If you can get that, then there are no other explanations to offer you Tendarian.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

[Tendarian]

It definately wasnt necessary i can admit that.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Omens
Lmfao. That sandwitch actually looks good.

Dude I'm startin to feel kinda bad. Nice little uproar.
I love watchin you guys argue.
I honestly dont beleve a word I said. I could give two shits about what you beleve in or debate about. Hell I dont even have a brother.
I just Love stirrin the pot.
You guys are so gullable.

Muahahahahaahahaha ! You are sad. You used a racial slur to stir up the pot. How fucking pathetic.

[Tendarian]

Heh i stand corrected, Vold wins. I hate having to agree with someone i was disagreeing with but umm yeah thats wrong Omens.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Kranar
[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

It's nice change that the moderator on this board lets everyone know that his posts are edited. Unlike a certain other board.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Omens
Couldnt think of anything else that would work as good.


Omens, your resident asshole.
:up:

You are so pathetic it boggles the mind.:fu:

Clearly X's Team material.

He's all yours X. :loser:

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Kranar
[Edited on 5-12-2004 by Kranar]

It's nice change that the moderator on this board lets everyone know that his posts are edited. Unlike a certain other board.

I agree...

but Kranar.. why is it almost all of your posts show that it's been edited? Are you really that bad of a speller.. or is it a 'feature'?

[imported_Kranar]

<< but Kranar.. why is it almost all of your posts show that it's been edited? Are you really that bad of a speller.. or is it a 'feature'? >>

I've edited 16.5 percent of all my posts... that is admittedly a lot. I always catch spelling mistakes in my posts the first time around.

Perhaps I should use the Preview Post button in the future instead of the Fast Reply.

[Edited on 5-12-2004 by... ooof, this time I got it right ;) ]

[Rowi]

I really dont know what to say, for once I am quiet............................................. ...

[Bobmuhthol]

After watching the video multiple times, I respect my neck. A lot.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
After watching the video multiple times, I respect my neck. A lot.

I do wish the media would stop saying they "chopped" or "cut" his neck off. They sawed it off. It was not quick and painless. I watched the video, but muted the sound. Not sure I'm ready for audio just yet.

[Hulkein]

The sound isn't really that noticeable since all you hear is the scumbags chanting something like allah akbah or some junk.

I deleted the video, I don't want to see that shit again it makes me too mad.

[Bobmuhthol]

I had max volume action going on. Kind of sucked.

[Xcalibur]

Still don't understand why there was so few blood.

Still, I think those people deserve worse.

[Bobmuhthol]

After some discussion where I pointed out the key events of the decapitation, it's been decided between my brother and me that he deserved to die, he and the United States army should not be in Iraq, and if this is what it takes to get us the hell out, fine.

[Hulkein]

You and your brother are douche bags.

To use the for some reason popular nerd language

He != US Army

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by Hulkein]

[Bobmuhthol]

I never said he was. Both him and the US army do not belong in Iraq, however.

[DeV]

He did not deserve to die.

[Xcalibur]

Only one "people" deserves to die. Them. They are no people, though. Only animals.

[Hulkein]

Why doesn't he belong in Iraq? He was working to better himself and the country.

[Bobmuhthol]

Because he was told to get the fuck out?

------------------------------------------------------

I'm all for retards being retarded, but come on...

"Anonymous US officials said today that Berg had been warned to get out of Iraq for his own safety. His family have criticised officials for not giving him more help."

His choice was to die or to get out of the country. He deserved to die because he made that decision. If this was a total shock to people, then I have one thing to say: What the fuck?

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[i remember halloween]

bob's lack of applicable intelligence opts him for the status of 'deserved to die'

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Still don't understand why there was so few blood.

Still, I think those people deserve worse.

When a limb is removed from the body the muscles around it constrict and limit blood spillage. It is why amputation was considered a valid medical procedure for ghastly wounds back in the day. (It still is today in certain rare circumstances)

[Xcalibur]

We're talking of an artere, not veines. I've seen some decapitation in my life (living on a farm rocks!) and there was always a lot of blood.

Seriously, I don't think it would be that clean.

[GSTamral]

He deserved to die because he was in Iraq rebuilding telecommunications lines and was warned to get out, but chose to stay and help the rebuilding process, Bob?

Bob, I will say just this. You know nothing of human emotion, fanaticism, or really anything of the real world. Your sympathetic outlook of racism and your extreme tolerance of any action that backs your views is appalling.

It is precisely that attitude why I made the simple statement that I make more money at my age than you will in your life. You have the streetsmarts and common sense of a rodent, and you speak with the kind of abrasiveness meant for one purpose alone, offending others.

I have two very good friends from college working for Haliburton, both of whom knew him quite well, and having known him, they have made it quite clear that he did not deserve to die, let alone in the gruesome and barbaric manner he did. That I also oppose this war notwithstanding, I would not condone a fate like that upon anyone.

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by Kranar]

[Xcalibur]

Calm down, Joe Blow.

Log to a certain i.p. and relax.

He did push his luck, when playing with fire, you do get burn.

[GSTamral]

His statement is extremely offensive to myself as a person, as well as would be to personal friends of mine. I stand fully behind my threat.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<He deserved to die because he was in Iraq rebuilding telecommunications lines and was warned to get out, but chose to stay and help the rebuilding process, Bob?>>

Correct.

[Xcalibur]

So you'd fight him with some small chance of killing him, because he is saying the other man pushes his luck and "deserved" to die?

Hmm..

Some people are animals. You cannot even have sympathy for them (no, i'm not talking of anyone here).

[Edited on 13-5-04 by Xcalibur]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
We're talking of an artere, not veines. I've seen some decapitation in my life (living on a farm rocks!) and there was always a lot of blood.

Seriously, I don't think it would be that clean.

Yes of an artery. Its true. look it up.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by RangerD1

Originally posted by Xcalibur
We're talking of an artere, not veines. I've seen some decapitation in my life (living on a farm rocks!) and there was always a lot of blood.

Seriously, I don't think it would be that clean.

Yes of an artery. Its true. look it up.

What I remember from my biology courses and the years I've passed in farm is the fact that cutting the head of anyone, animals or humans doesn't make the heart stop at the same moment causing a lot, A LOT of blood out of the artery that got cut. And in no way the artery can shut itself enough to stop the heart who is a DAMN pumping machine.

I'm 99% sure about that, beside if the knife in question was hyper hot.

[Edited on 13-5-04 by Xcalibur]

[GSTamral]

I would not kill him, because I would not be aiming strikes anyplace vital. That would be manslaughter, because I would essentially be striking a helpless opponent.

And yes, by claiming that he deserved to die in such abrasive fashion, yes, Bob has managed to pick himself a fight, if he were to show his presence in front of me. If he does not, I will not go out of my way to pursue him. I am merely warning him, that he should stay away from me, because, having given him the warning, I have shown him the same respect he does not deserve. Now, just as Berg was warned, if Bob were to not heed the warning, he would deserve whatever happened to him.

I will not say anything further on the matter, nor anger myself further over this. I have said my peace, and given fair warning.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Now, just as Berg was warned, if Bob were to not heed the warning, he would deserve whatever happened to him.>>

I agree. Thank you for supporting my entire argument.

[Xcalibur]

You can kill a man by punching him on his shoulder, as on his fore arm, as for his thigh.

Relax, log to her i.p. and please, please, remember that this place is among the internet.

[GSTamral]

Again Xcalibur, your stupidity carries you into far far too many assumptions. Who said anything about punching? striking and punching are two entirely different things, and while I understand your need of sarcasm and guiled wit in continued veiled insults against me, but your mind is too small to continue in this argument.

[Xcalibur]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Again Xcalibur, your stupidity carries you into far far too many assumptions. Who said anything about punching? striking and punching are two entirely different things, and while I understand your need of sarcasm and guiled wit in continued veiled insults against me, but your mind is too small to continue in this argument.

Your little macho mind cannot understand that you could kill a man by pushing him on the ground.

When fighting, you agree to three things:

1) you can get a degenerative/deadly sickness such as HIV.

2) you can get sued

3) death can happen.

Be a man and face the consequences of your pseudo-actions.

[GSTamral]

<<
Be a man and face the consequences of your pseudo-actions.
>>

Who said anything about psuedo?

[Xcalibur]

Until it's done, it's pseudo.

And since it's coming from the internet, it's pseudo-pseudo.

And since it's coming from you, then, it's pseudo-pseudo-pseudo.

Bernard Herrmann's twisted nerve (whistling song) ROCKED!

Originally posted by Xcalibur

Originally posted by RangerD1

Originally posted by Xcalibur
We're talking of an artere, not veines. I've seen some decapitation in my life (living on a farm rocks!) and there was always a lot of blood.

Seriously, I don't think it would be that clean.

Yes of an artery. Its true. look it up.

What I remember from my biology courses and the years I've passed in farm is the fact that cutting the head of anyone, animals or humans doesn't make the heart stop at the same moment causing a lot, A LOT of blood out of the artery that got cut. And in no way the artery can shut itself enough to stop the heart who is a DAMN pumping machine.

I'm 99% sure about that, beside if the knife in question was hyper hot.

[Edited on 13-5-04 by Xcalibur]

No, you missed the explanation I gave entirely. When a muscle is cut completely, it CONSTRICTS, therefore reducing blood flow. Blood does not flow because the arteries are squished. It doesn't take alot of pressure to stem off a jugular and the muscles in your neck are more than capable of doing so. It is why amputation was a popular treatment for grevious wounds.

IF a wound is bleeding at such an extant that it can not be stopped by extreme methods such as a tourniquet, then the limb that the wound is on is CUT, the reason being that the muscles will constrict, and thus stop the blood loss.

striking and punching are two entirely different things,

Spoken like a true kung-fu master.

So, in other words you would be jabbing him repeatedly with your fingers?

[Xcalibur]

You were talking about limbs, which I totaly agree. I'm talking about the neck, and you were surely in your generalisation.

I think a good way to see if I was mistaken and therefore wrong will be to read about the good era of France when they were abusing the guillotine...

Most were painted in red so the people would not notice the huge amount of blood drown out of the neck by decapitation.

Now it's time for you to show me a scientific proof, otherwise we will just argue and argue

[Edited on 13-5-04 by Xcalibur]

No, we won't argue and argue because you can believe what the fuck you want.

[Xcalibur]

It's not a question of beliefs. The "best" tool used by décapitation in the last 500 hundred years was paint in red because too much blood was flowing out of the body.

You just confused limbs with neck.

End of discussion, then.:cool:

So its your contention that no artiers flow through the arms or legs?

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol

I'm all for retards being retarded, but come on...

"Anonymous US officials said today that Berg had been warned to get out of Iraq for his own safety. His family have criticised officials for not giving him more help."

His choice was to die or to get out of the country. He deserved to die because he made that decision. If this was a total shock to people, then I have one thing to say: What the fuck?

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by Bobmuhthol]


Just incase you didn't know, he was on his way out of the country but was detained by Iraqi officials which then led to his abduction.

STFU, your entire argument sucks.

[TheEschaton]

That I also oppose this war notwithstanding,

Anyone else do a double take when Tamral said that?


Anyways, that notwithstanding, no one deserves to die. X's arguments that some people are "just animals, and should be treated as such" is fallacious and goes against all modern moral thought. It should be given no heed, but sadly, in today's society, the idea that people are inferior to the point of being not-human is common - mainly because these acts, which people despise, don't want to be viewed as ultimately human act, not animal acts....people want to disavow responsibility for them.

Anyways, the point of the matter is.....we all know the risks and consequences. When the Comedy Central boards were up, a guy on the Daily Show boards was a contracter, who was offered a contract to help rebuild Iraq. We all had a long discussion of what it meant - money vs. safety was the main axis of the discussion - and he had to make a choice, and live with it. I don't know what decision he ever made - the CC boards were shut down due to hacking - but he made his decision informed, at the very least.


-TheE-

[Scott]

Originally posted by TheEschaton


Anyways, that notwithstanding, no one deserves to die.

-TheE-

Jeffery Dahmer, John Wayne Gacy, David Berkowitz, Ted Bundy, Ottis Toole, Andre Chiktilo (sp?).... these people didn't deserve to die? I highly disagree with that statement, although, I know people find capital punishment to be ironic. However, I cannot understand how someone who kills others for no reason should not suffer the same fate.

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by Gemstone101]

[Xcalibur]

Rangerd1: If I remember my biology courses, we have artery (ies) going everywhere, even the feet!

Still, that is not the point. The arteries in the neck are the largest because the brain need a lot of blood. And we have two in the neck (if not three, let me check).. We have 4.

I only have the french names, bear with me:

1 : artère occipitale,
2 : artère temporale superficielle,
3 : artère faciale (contre le maxillaire inférieur),
4 : carotide primitive (contre les vertèbres cervicales),

And the muscles of the neck are not biceps, quadriceps, triceps, or whatever.

Man!

:socool:

TheEschaton: some people ARE animals. Like it or not. They are only a human corpse with an animal mind.

Those people are usualy:

1) sexual predators

2) ruthless killers

3) extremist whatever

I could get a psychological proof about that by saying their "moi" is too low compaired to their "sur moi" but it won't be a valide argument



[Edited on 13-5-04 by Xcalibur]

Eh, no. the arteries in your legs are the largest and it doesn't require alot of pressure to pinch off the jugulars. In fact it can be done quite easily with 2 fingers.

[Xcalibur]

You are right about the largest, the Fémorale.

Don't know for you, though, but my thigh is surely 3 times larger than my neck (who got 4 arteries).

Don't need to argue about the limbs, you were right (and I never said you were wrong).

But the neck? Nah! (pinching, ok, did they pinched? No)

[Pierat]

I dont get the point of saying you dont feel it bled enough, are you trying to say this video is fake and that our government made it to get sympathy? Condering people seemed to have known him, and he was taped, unless he consented to being killed, and or pretending to be killed and going into the witness rellocation program I highly doubt this video is fake.

But you know what is annoying me since everyone brought up how we treated the prisoners? The person who got them out. Dont get me wrong, the concept of what that person did, in some aspects was heroic. There were atrocitys, they risked allot to stop them. However.....These photos getting out, will give our country a black eye for a very long time, and most likely increase the ammount of anger/hatred towards Americans, making our lives more difficult and more dangerous. They have done a great diservece to our country and us as people. It should have been handled differently. Having not been there, I cant say how it should have been dealt with, but this was a very bad idea. Theres fault in other places as well, such in the hands of those who did it, but regardless, these photos should have never been "released" Taken sure, held over someones head with threats to have been released? sure... a ton of different solitions, just not this one......

[Meos]

Finally somone said it,

[Xcalibur]

Fake? no.

Altered? yes.

I'm sure as many that the stuff some US soliders did to Iraqi (or whatever you say it) troops were ordered.

[Skirmisher]

Pirate,

I disagree with you only because you are seeing this from the incorrect point of view.

First of all, these videos would have come out eventually no matter what. Too many people had copies. Thats just the way it is.

They came out now becasue the US armed forces was engaging basically in a cover up and trying to sweep this under the rug while laying the full blame on a handfull of enlisted personel. The family of one of them was sent copies of some of the photos and they said they only went to a news source after trying and failing to get anyone from congressional reps to the pentagon to listen to their claims that this was not just done as a lark, or out of malice but as a one of various normal parts of interrogations being conducted in that prison.

Hell there was an article in the NY Times yeserday that I found quite interesting. I will give the link and then a few quotes.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/12/politics/12ABUS.html



(From the New York Times, May 12 2004)

The officer, Maj. Gen. Antonio M. Taguba, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that it had been against the Army's doctrine for another Army general to recommend last summer that military guards "set the conditions" to help Army intelligence officers extract information from prisoners. He also said an order last November from the top American officer in Iraq effectively put the prison guards under the command of the intelligence unit there.

But the civilian official, Stephen A. Cambone, the under secretary of defense for intelligence, contradicted the general. He said that the military police and the military intelligence unit at the prison needed to work closely to gain as much intelligence as possible from Iraqi prisoners to prevent attacks against American soldiers. Mr. Cambone also said that General Taguba misinterpreted the November order, which he said only put the intelligence unit in charge of the prison facility, not of the military police guards.

While General Taguba depicted the abuses at the prison as the acts of a few soldiers under a fragmented and inept command, he also said that "they were probably influenced by others, if not necessarily directed specifically by others." His report called for an inquiry into the culpability of intelligence officers, which is still under way.

The unusual public sparring between a two-star Army general and one of Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld's most trusted aides cast a spotlight on the confusing conditions at the prison last fall when the worst abuses occurred, as well as the sensitive issue of whether the Pentagon's thirst for better intelligence to combat Iraqi insurgents contributed to the climate there.

"How do you expect the M.P.'s to get it straight if we have a difference between the two of you?" said Senator Edward M. Kennedy, Democrat of Massachusetts.

[LilHellcat]

After watching the freaking video and spending most of yesterday puking my brains out and my guts into the toilet I'd like to comment. X if you notice since you claim to have watched it so much. They killed him on carpet. If you look near the end of the video the floor it is soaked with blood. They had him laying on the floor most of the time while freaking sawing his neck. Sorry to get so graphic. Now any blood he had would go into the floor and that is indeed what soaked it all up. So it didn't splash or whatever and if I'm not mistaken the one who did most of the cutting was wearing black. You'd never be able to see what was on his clothes anyway. Carpet is very absorbant hence while when something floods in your house you 99% of the time end up having to replace the carpet also because it soaks into it so much including the padding that it mildews even if you use something to "surface" dry it.

Do I think its altered hell no. I do not think it is I've seen alot of crap in my life but that is one of the most horrific things I've ever seen. NO ONE deserves that no one, no matter if they knew the consquences or not. If I'm not mistaken they did say he was trying to get released and the american officials had him detained there or iraq officials whatever. So saying he deserved that is something I'd hear come from a 13 year old child.

I spent most of yesterday not getting that out of my head, I cried I was sick. To think this was supposedly done in retalition to what our boys did to a few prisoners. Granted they had no excuse but if anyone else would have seen it they woulda thought it was a bad S&M snuff movie. I don't claim to understand and I'm not so sure I want to but no matter who anyone is, no one deserved what this poor guy got.

[DeV]

Originally posted by LilHellcat
NO ONE deserves that no one, no matter if they knew the consquences or not. So saying he deserved that is something I'd hear come from a 13 year old child.
Agreed. I refuse to watch the tape, but Ive heard enough from what has been posted regarding the barbaric act to have the opinion that no one deserved to die in such a manner.

[Parkbandit]

Tamral - Threatening to kill a 13 year old is stupid. Certainly, he can insite that type of rage.. but look at his picture... he's not really a physical threat (even with short hair)

Bob - You're views that Berg deserved to die are stupid and ignorant. No one.. Bin Laden, Saddam, etc.. deserves to die the death that man did. He was over in Iraq trying to HELP.. and was absolutely zero threat to those animals. Even those animals don't deserve to die that death.

TheE - Some people deserve to die.. but none the way Mr. Berg did.

[Snapp]

I agree with Hellcat, there's no way that was fake. I didn't watch the whole video, but I started to. I had to stop it because I couldn't stop crying (which is saying a lot, because I never cry). I really wish I hadn't even attempted to look at it. I've learned to ignore Bob's comments because he has no idea what he's saying and just hopes to get a rise out of everyone.

[TheEschaton]

Latest news: The CIA has concluded the guy who did the beheading was indeed, Al-Zarqawi.


IE, the guy who came to Iraq after the fall of Bagdhad, because, according to a memo of his that they found, he was free to move as he pleased.


-TheE-

[Xcalibur]

I noticed the carpet too, let me watch it again... Hmm, it doesn't spur, but by putting the contrast to almost maximum, you don't see any spurting, but I can imagine since the animal that cut him is doing it almost "under".

I guess you are right, my most cuty girl.

[Ravenstorm]

I didn't watch it. I don't intend to watch it. My imagination is quite good enough to supply the images without needing to see the real thing.

That being said, lots of people are wondering if it was quite what it seems. One theory I read is that he was already dead at the time. They pointed out he didn't so much as twitch when the knife came to rest against his throat. It would also explain less blood as his heart had already stopped pumping.

Raven

[Hulkein]

I agree, he did look somewhat expressionless when he was sitting there and then grabbed to the floor... He was also kind of pale in comparison to his photos from when he was in the country. Interesting.

[Edited on 5-13-2004 by Hulkein]

[Xcalibur]

And the spurt. The spurt! My first impression was that it was altered so it wasn't a pure piece of madness made from those people.

"Altered"= yes

Fake? = no

[imported_Kranar]

The most graphic video I've seen of a beheading was the Unknown Russian Solder, and it was somewhat similar to this.

There isn't as much blood as you'd think there would be, but the shock comes purely from realizing how fragile your life is. In the other video the victim doesn't even scream, he just lets out one final gasp before dying.

I wouldn't call the video disgusting persay, when I saw it I wasn't puking or feeling disgusted or anything of the sort. Instead I just feel extremely sad and numb. You feel absolutely sorry for this individual, seeing him vulnerable and dying for nothing.

[Bobmuhthol]

I didn't say he deserved to die the way he did. I said he deserved to die.

<<If I'm not mistaken they did say he was trying to get released and the american officials had him detained there or iraq officials whatever.>>

American officials held him for 13 days and told him to leave Iraq. He didn't do a very good job.

[Tendarian]

Not many people deserve to die,especially a guy who went over there to help rebuild the country. His innocence cant be denied. I can only hope he really was dead before they sawed the poor guys head off and was put down humanely.

Until recently i truly never believed Bob was 13 years old,now i feel myself hoping he really is.

[Xcalibur]

Notice when they grab him by the hair and throw him on the ground.

Notice the 2-3 seconds.

You don't see his eyes closing.

Don't know for you, but being grabbed by the hair, thrown on the ground and knowing the knife that was "there" would be "here"...

Would prefer, for him, yeah, that he was dead before.

[Tendarian]

I found an article and ill quote a snippet of it for Bob.


The story of Nick Berg - a tale that haunts America
By Andrew Buncombe in West Whiteland

13 May 2004

Nick Berg liked to play the saxophone. When he was at high school he was a member of the marching band and neighbours would hear him practising in the evenings at his parents' house, the music seeping out through the walls.

He was a friendly young man. His friends said he had an independent spirit. The 26-year-old liked science and he liked to travel. When he was at college he went to Ghana and helped build houses out of mud, returning home considerably thinner and with his pockets empty because he gave away most of his money. Now Mr Berg is dead, murdered in the most terrible way in a place thousands of miles from his home and light years away from the life that he led in the Philadelphia suburbs.

His family is heartbroken while his friends and neighbours, probably along with every other American, are sickened to the core. "It's a very sombre mood," said one neighbour, Janet Conrad, yesterday. "He was very well liked. It's an unbelievable tragedy."

This guy didnt deserve to die.

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Latest news: The CIA has concluded the guy who did the beheading was indeed, Al-Zarqawi.


IE, the guy who came to Iraq after the fall of Bagdhad, because, according to a memo of his that they found, he was free to move as he pleased.


-TheE-


It is Ironic that you left out the fact that he was also the Terrorist that Bush used as proof that Al Quida had cells in Iraq.
Its just a coincidence he is in Iraq though right.

[Latrinsorm]

Al Queda cells in Iraq aren't very relevant if they started up AFTER THE WAR.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Al Queda cells in Iraq aren't very relevant if they started up AFTER THE WAR.

And that is up for debate.. whether in fact they did start after the war. My guess is that we will never know the real truth there. Part of me believes they were there prior to Saddam's departure and the other part believes they came in after. I've seen and heard 'evidence' to support both.

Either way.. I say get them all in Iraq and let's get to work.

Here! Here! Parkbandit.

[TheEschaton]

What evidence is there that they were there before? Ansar il-Islam? That's a Kurdish terrorist group.

Salmon Pak? I find this hard to believe, as well - it seemed to me to be an Iraqi military training base, not an Al Qaeda base camp.

-TheE-

[imported_Kranar]

There's evidence that Al Qaida cells exist in the U.S.

Go declare war on Buffalo.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Kranar
There's evidence that Al Qaida cells exist in the U.S.

Go declare war on Buffalo.

You Canadians would just LOVE that.. then you could claim the whole Niagara Falls for yourselves.

We won't fall for such a trick... give it up.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
What evidence is there that they were there before? Ansar il-Islam? That's a Kurdish terrorist group.

Salmon Pak? I find this hard to believe, as well - it seemed to me to be an Iraqi military training base, not an Al Qaeda base camp.

-TheE-

You aren't really serious.. are you TheE? You believe there was zero Al Qaeda presence in Iraq prior to the war?

:lol::lol:

[TheEschaton]

Go declare war on Buffalo.


Frankly, we're ready for you. We ain't scared of nothing. And we're not gonna lose this time.

And, yanno what? The Canadians would probably help us out. Ontario is very friendly to the Buffalo region. We're the city of Good Neighbors, and Canada's our best neighbor.

-TheE-

On a side note: I used to drive by the market the Lackawanna Six used to meet in, on an almost daily basis.

[LilHellcat]

Originally posted by Xcalibur
Notice when they grab him by the hair and throw him on the ground.

Notice the 2-3 seconds.

You don't see his eyes closing.

Don't know for you, but being grabbed by the hair, thrown on the ground and knowing the knife that was "there" would be "here"...

Would prefer, for him, yeah, that he was dead before.

I would like to think he was dead before it happened, but he did move. He didn't fight or anything but he moved , if he was drugged and if you notice even when he talked it was exceptionally slow as if stoned then yes.
If you were being held prisoner I could pretty much gurantee you'd be pale too. Though he does seemed drug which is my guess exactly what he is. His speech his movements both show it. As for his eyes not closing, your eyes don't close when you die to begin with. Why do you think funeral homes stitch your eyes closed? Or they used to put silver coins to cover the eyes of the dead.

If he was drugged he probably didn't even realize what was coming to a point. Or perhaps he did realize and figured it'd be the last thing he ever saw. Sad to say but when you know pretty much in that sort of situation your a goner, really what would you want to close your eyes and kiss your ass goodbye or to look and see the face of your killer?

[Hulkein]

Interesting...

http://www.kyw1060.com/news_story_detail.cfm?newsitemid=37621

[Back]

Dad: Berg Died for Bush, Rumsfeld 'Sins' (http://cnn.netscape.cnn.com/news/story.jsp?floc=FF-RTO-rontz&idq=/ff/story/0002%2F20040513%2F1505162354.htm&sc=rontz&photoid= 20040512PHW01D)

What an unpatriotic liberal left wing democrat. Dosn't he know his son had it coming?

That guy is on something serious

[TheEschaton]

So, if he disagrees with you (or the gov't?) he's "on something"?

-TheE-

[Hulkein]

He's blaming an administration for his sons death when his son was there under his own free will with absolutely no affiliation with the administration.

That's like my mom getting hit by a car and blaming Ford motor company for producing it.

[TheEschaton]

Well.......if we never invaded Iraq - he wouldn't of been there.

Not to sound trite, or obvious.

-TheE-

[Scott]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
Well.......if we never invaded Iraq - he wouldn't of been there.

Not to sound trite, or obvious.

-TheE-

If Osama Bin Laden hadn't have used planes to hit the WTC and the Pentagon, we probably wouldn't have been their either. Why not blame them?

[Hulkein]

And if we never invented cars, my mom would never have been hit by it.

The point is, it is no ones fault but the assholes who killed him. He wasn't there as a soldier, he was there because he wanted to be. He obviously knew the risks.

Originally posted by TheEschaton
So, if he disagrees with you (or the gov't?) he's "on something"?

-TheE-

No, its the fact that he blames somebody else for the decisions that his son made freely.

Bush may be responsible for the war in Iraq, but that man made that decision to go. He had no obligation and it was not neccessary for him to go. I feel for him, but he lived his life and got burned. Thats the way shit is.

[TheEschaton]

I realize and agree with the position that it was this guy's own free will to go over there. Just like, you could say it was a soldier's free will to join the Army.

But I can understand the father's position. The fact is, Bush et al, created the situation, when many people didn't think they needed to create said situation, and they put the soldiers there, and they bombed everything to the point that it needed repairs. The invention of the car does not support or condone the thought of your mother being hit by a car. War, by its very nature, condones the death of the people involved in it, which, sadly, is often the civilians caught up inbetween.

-TheE-

And again, he chose to get caught in between. He has every right to be upset that his son died, but he needs to go to mcd's buy a straw and suck it the fuck up.

Its that same retarded line of thinking that suggests the gun industries are responsible because someone flipped out and offed 6 people.

[TheEschaton]

Ahhh, but the point is, the gun industry IS responsible, when it doesn't insure that people who buy the guns do so in a responsible manner.

Hell, legal precedent has rejected your idea that the industry is not responsible for its product - look at the tobacco companies. The tobacco companies could (and have) used the same arguments - people don't HAVE to smoke their products. But because they do, and because they die from them, they got judged against.

-TheE-

[Snapp]

I may have read it wrong, but it looked like he was blaming the US because they were holding his son there jailed. He would have been home if they hadn't.

[HarmNone]

I do not find our government at fault for this man's death. I can, however, understand his father's anger. It is in direct proportion to his grief.

If one chooses to go into a war-torn country as a civilian contractor, it must be assumed that one has thought out the possible consequences of this decision. There is always the chance that one will not return from such a venture.

In most cases, American citizens are strongly advised NOT to go into such situations. Those who are already there are, normally, evacuated if the going gets frighteningly rough. I know. My family and I were evacuated from such situations more than once. To some degree, danger goes with the territory when working in developing countries. If those countries are undergoing upheaval, the danger is increased accordingly. That is simply common sense (which is notably lacking in many people).

Hopefully, when Mr. Berg has had the time to work through his grief, he will see things more clearly. His son died as a result of a choice he made freely...to be in a country that was at war with our own. He knew the facts before he chose to go in there.

I am sorry for what happened to him. I cry for his parents' loss. I do not blame the government of the United States for that loss, however.

HarmNone

So, theres no such thing as stupid law? Please

Also, I didn't say the cigarette industry for a reason. There is a distinct difference. Cigarettes are by nature addictive. Guns are not. If i want to kill someone, access to a gun doesn't change that, and it probaly won't deter me in the least. A gun is a tool. The manufacterer of a tool is not responsible for how that tool is used, the user is.


Would It be bush's fault if his son decided to became a race car driver, Police man, or tight rope walker and died? I think not. The man was 26 years old for christ sakes.

Heres something personal for you. Lets say that you die in the course of your peace corp stint (assuming no malicious activity of any sort), is it Bush's fault if you die? The peace corps? Your parents?

Lets get a grip of reality. In big boys world we hold ourselves accountable for the things we do.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
So, if he disagrees with you (or the gov't?) he's "on something"?

-TheE-

As a person I think our republican members would agree tends to be liberal in her views I must agree somewhat with Ranger on this.

There is a relatively simple way to ensure that you do not get killed in the chaos that is now Iraq. Don't go.

What happened to this man was disgusting, i hope those that did it to him are found and have those wires attached to their privates and his time let the electricity flow. Just dont photograph it, idiots.

Ok, that being said....NO one who goes to Iraq from the US especially those who are not in the military has the right to think that bad things can not happen to them. Do you think the good folks at halliburton just like triple or quadruple the pay of anyone in Iraq out of the goodness of thier hearts?

I cannot express how badly I feel for his family, especially after seeing the photo of the father slumped down on his front lawn being held by his remaining son after hearing about the video. My heart and sympathies are theirs.

But we must all try to be able to see what is real here, when blame is truly deserved....or more political.

[Bobmuhthol]

He was killed by Americans.

Where'd ya hear that?

[Bobmuhthol]

I looked at the video some more, and one of the guys is wearing like white tennis shoes. They're all white, and they're all wearing bulletproof vests. Al Qaeda would, most likely, not be white. They also wouldn't be wearing bulletproof vests, but the American army would. And during one point of the video, the camera man's hand appears on the screen, and he's whiter than the killers. Nick Berg was wearing an American prisoner uniform, yet he was not a prisoner.

I did a quick google search (after making this post.. I made the conclusions above on my own) and found the following:

It's the same chair. Look at this pic that was released today of the latest prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib prison. Notice the white chair in the lower left corner. Now - look at the chair Nicholas Berg is sitting in!! It's the same fucking chair!!

I have some more pics but the walls are the same yellow color and the baseboard is the same color as Abu Ghraib prison. Then - as I've said before - what is Nicholas Berg doing in an orange prison jumpsuit? The orange jumpsuit is the same color as the ones used at the prison!!! Terrorists don't don't put the people they kidnap in orange prison jumpsuits!

Now - put that together with the fact that these "terrorists" are WHITE and FAT and they are wearing BULLET PROOF VESTS!! So who goes around wearing bullet proof vests all the time? People like CIA - Prison guards!

This is enough to scare the shit out of you but - Nicholas Berg was murdered by AMERICANS at Abu Ghraib prison.

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/images/prison01.jpg

http://www.conspiracyplanet.com/channel.cfm?channelid=94&contentid=1237

[Edited on 5-20-2004 by Bobmuhthol]

[Wezas]

http://genmay.com/showthread.php?t=354134


1. Guy on far right wearing nice clean white tennis shoes

2. The AK that one guy is holding is not an AK its a galil which is a derivative of the AK manufactured in israel to make it more efficient and reliable. (They simply are not common in bagdad 0 the russian and chineese versions are much more prevelent)

3. One man is wearing a gold wedding ring on his left hand. This is a major taboo in islam the left hand, the sinster hand is reserved for toilet functions and would never bear a ring)

4. The man on the left is at parade rest. This is a behavior that is ground into the military and becomes habit.

5. All the men are heavy and well fed - take alook on the streets of bagdad not many porkers out there dues to dood shortages etc.

6. The chair that Nick was sitting in when he was filmed telling his name and other information is the exact same chair (white plastic military issue) that can be seen in tortue pictures.

7. The yellow walls are the same walls as in the abu garib (sp?) prison.

8. Extreme lack of blood. This have been backed up by many forensic docotrs recently. A human who is under that much durress would have a heart beating through his chest. As soon as the atery is severed there would be blood spraying everywhere. None on the face when its held up none on the cutters arms or legs or chest. The room would be awash in blood yet there is none.

9. The bright orange US military police issue jumpsuit. But how is that possible when they say he was never in their custody.

10. The screams that have been found to be that of a woman not a man and that were crudely overdubbed and not on the original audio track recorded by the tape.

11. The fact that the video was uploaded from england and not bagdad.

12. Lilly white skin on their hands and exposed potions of skin (find a light skinned arab)

13. A few of the men are wearing bullet proof vests. Why is this a big deal? Because for the greatest hope that these people can have is to die a martyr. The do not fear death the welcome it and you will not see them wearing bullet proof vests because they are ready to die for their cause.

[TheEschaton]

That's some pretty wild shit.

Heh.

-TheE-

[Tendarian]

Haha conspiracy theories are funny as hell. As i said on another forum i have a chair that looks exactly like the chair Nick Berg is sitting in and the one at the prison. They aint that hard to find seriously. Its sad how many people believe anything handed to them like this. The poor guy is dead and it wasnt americans who killed him. Do you honestly think the terrorists would just sit back and let the US gov't use them like this if they didnt really do it? Hell no they would be yelling from the roof tops that they had nothing to do with it.

[Bobmuhthol]

What the fuck, Tendarian?

<<Its sad how many people believe anything handed to them like this.>>

You believe Al Qaeda killed Nick Berg, and you were just handed that information. It's not like you were there. You're in the same position as everyone else.

[TheEschaton]

That's a pretty fallacious argument, Tendarian. They'd LOVE to claim something like this as their own.

-TheE-

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
What the fuck, Tendarian?

<<Its sad how many people believe anything handed to them like this.>>

You believe Al Qaeda killed Nick Berg, and you were just handed that information. It's not like you were there. You're in the same position as everyone else.

"Like this" is the key word. The news sources saying they did it have integrity the ones that dont are websites ive never heard of in my life before this happened.

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
That's a pretty fallacious argument, Tendarian. They'd LOVE to claim something like this as their own.

-TheE-

You dont think they would also like to make the US look like shit? What is worse for the US? They they killed ONE american or to have people there think americans killed their own to get heat off them about the prison abuse?

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm not big on conspiracies, but aren't the top news sources somehow affiliated with the government, and wouldn't try to uncover a conspiracy if there was one?

That's just my view on it.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<They they killed ONE american or to have people there think americans killed their own to get heat off them about the prison abuse?>>

But most Americans wouldn't believe it, and would consider the people that do believe it to be idiots and terrorist scum.

[Artha]

wouldn't try to uncover a conspiracy if there was one?

Are you kidding? They'd race to do it first, since it means ratings.

[TheEschaton]

Well, they wouldn't necessarily think that Americans killed them.

Imagine this. You're a terrorist. Someone beheads an American while yelling Allah Akbar. No terrorist group claims the killing, but you think that it was probably someone on your side who did it. Nevertheless, you want to seem fearless, so you claim it.

Anyways, I don't really think it's true, but it would be interesting, since al-Zarqwari hadn't even been seen prior to this execution, and he was said to be the guy doing the cutting.

-TheE-

[Tendarian]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
I'm not big on conspiracies, but aren't the top news sources somehow affiliated with the government, and wouldn't try to uncover a conspiracy if there was one?

That's just my view on it.

I dont think so. In todays world it seems like the media loves ratings and this would be a whopper of one. 60 minutes ran the photos of abuse because they knew it would bring in the ratings and was a huge story. It also wasnt good for the US gov't but they did it anyway. This would be even bigger if it were true and at least one of them would run with it in my opinion if it held any water.

[Tendarian]

But most Americans wouldn't believe it, and would consider the people that do believe it to be idiots and terrorist scum.

Thats not true i dont think your terrorist scum :)

Hehe anyway to me the terrorists wouldnt be denying it for the americans to frenzy but to other arabs in the middle east who dont really agree with the terrorists agenda.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheEschaton

But I can understand the father's position. The fact is, Bush et al, created the situation, when many people didn't think they needed to create said situation, and they put the soldiers there, and they bombed everything to the point that it needed repairs. The invention of the car does not support or condone the thought of your mother being hit by a car. War, by its very nature, condones the death of the people involved in it, which, sadly, is often the civilians caught up inbetween.

-TheE-

His father is using his son's murder only to further his own political pulpit.

It makes me sick.

[Latrinsorm]

I have four of those chairs sitting on my deck right now... WAIT I BETTER COUNT CIA MIGHT HAVE STOLE MY CHAIR... no wait they're all still there. Phew. They'll be kept under lock and key from now on, don't worry.

And yeah, I believe Bob's/Eschaton's side.

Wow I never knew people were so fucking stupid here until now. Why don't all of you idiots do us a favor and remove yourselves from the gene pool.

[Drew2]

Originally posted by The Edine
Wow I never knew people were so fucking stupid here until now. Why don't all of you idiots do us a favor and remove yourselves from the gene pool.

There are just too many things wrong with that to list.

[Tisket]

Paranoia and conspiracy theories are fun.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<And yeah, I believe Bob's/Eschaton's side.>>

Duh.