Vietnam Vets say J Kerry unfit to be Commander-in-Chief

[Atlanteax]

Apparently of those who have served with Kerry in Vietnam, a significant majority regard him as militarily ineffective. They obviously have a beef with his war record, during and after.

Makes you wonder why Kerry keeps refering to his Vietnam record... unless of course, most voters cannot look past the fact that he did get purple hearts (nevermind the circumstances). :?:

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http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040503a.html

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Kerry 'Unfit to be Commander-in-Chief', Say Former Military Colleagues
By Marc Morano
CNSNews.com Senior Staff Writer
May 03, 2004

(CNSNews.com) - Hundreds of former commanders and military colleagues of presumptive Democratic nominee John Kerry are set to declare in a signed letter that he is "unfit to be commander-in-chief." They will do so at a press conference in Washington on Tuesday.

"What is going to happen on Tuesday is an event that is really historical in dimension," John O'Neill, a Vietnam veteran who served in the Navy as a PCF (Patrol Craft Fast) boat commander, told CNSNews.com . The event, which is expected to draw about 25 of the letter-signers, is being organized by a newly formed group called Swift Boat Veterans for Truth.

"We have 19 of 23 officers who served with [Kerry]. We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam. They all signed a letter that says he is unfit to be commander-in-chief," O'Neill said.

O'Neill, currently a Houston, Texas, based attorney, is no stranger to Kerry. O'Neill served in the same naval unit as Kerry and commanded Kerry's swift boat after Kerry returned to the United States. Kerry's command of the PCF boat lasted four months and ended shortly after he received his third Purple Heart. According to naval regulations at the time, any sailor who received three Purple Hearts could request a transfer out of the combat zone.

Kerry and O'Neill engaged in a nationally televised debate in 1971 on The Dick Cavett Show over Kerry's allegations that many Vietnam soldiers had routinely engaged in atrocities such as raping and cutting off ears and heads of Vietnamese soldiers and citizens. Kerry was the then spokesman for the anti-war group Vietnam Veterans Against the War.

"We are going to be presenting a letter that deals with Kerry's unfitness to be commander and chief that has been signed by hundreds of swift boat sailors, including most of those who served with Kerry," O'Neill explained.

"The ranks of the people signing [the letter] range from admiral down to seaman, and they run across the entire spectrum of politics, specialties, and political feelings about the Vietnam War," he added.

Among those scheduled to attend the event at the National Press Club and declare Kerry unfit for the role of commander-in-chief are retired Naval Rear Admiral Roy Hoffman, who was the commander of the Navy Coastal Surveillance Force, which included the swift boats on which Kerry served.

Also scheduled to be present at the event is Kerry's former commanding officer, Lt. Commander Grant Hibbard. Hibbard recently questioned whether Kerry deserved the first of his three Purple Hearts that he received in Vietnam. Hibbard doubted both the severity of the wound and whether it resulted from enemy fire.

"I've had thorns from a rose that were worse" than Kerry's wound for which he received a Purple Heart, Hibbard told the Boston Globe in April.

Organizers are confident that Tuesday's event and the letter with hundreds of signatures will educate people about Kerry.

"It is one of the largest outpourings of concern about him being commander-in-chief that anybody could have in a presidential campaign and it is by the people who know him best," O'Neill said.

'Unfit Commander-in-Chief'

Swift Boat Veterans For Truth maintains that Kerry's fellow Vietnam veterans are almost uniform in their disdain for his military service and anti-war protests.

"Not only a majority of the people who served with him feel that way, but a vast and overwhelming majority," O'Neill said. He added that more than "ninety percent of the people contacted by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth responded to the request to sign their name, with only 12 declining to sign.

"Comrades who actually served with him, almost all of them, are opposed to him, and believe he would be an unfit commander in chief and intend to bring the truth of his actual record to the attention of the American people," O'Neill said.

O'Neill hopes the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth can reveal to the American people what he sees as Kerry's flawed character.

"In the military, loyalty between commanders and the troops serving them is a two-way street. We have here a guy (Kerry) that with all of us in the field -- actually fighting the North Vietnamese -- came home and then falsely accused all of us of war crimes at a time when the people in uniform couldn't even respond," O'Neill said.

"And he did that knowing that was a lie," he added.

[i]'Real John Kerry'

B. G. Burkett, author of the book Stolen Valor and a military researcher, believes that Tuesday's event will not be dismissed easily by Kerry's campaign as a "partisan" attack.

"There are probably just as many Democrats amongst sailors who sailed swift boats as there are Republicans. What Kerry fails to realize is this has nothing to do with politics -- this has to with Vietnam Veterans who served, who have a beef with John Kerry's service, both during and after the war," Burkett told CNSNews.com.

"The American people do not know John Kerry and hopefully the swift boat crews and other Vietnam veterans will make sure that the American public knows the real John Kerry," he added.

Jim Loftus of Kerry's press office referred questions about Swift Boat Veterans for Truth's event on Tuesday to spokesman David Wade. Wade did not return CNSNews.com's requests for comment.

[Wezas]

Swift Boat Veterans For Truth maintains that Kerry's fellow Vietnam veterans are almost uniform in their disdain for his military service and anti-war protests.

So there's the motivation. And the fact that he's running against George W(ar) Bush.


"There are probably just as many Democrats amongst sailors who sailed swift boats as there are Republicans. What Kerry fails to realize is this has nothing to do with politics --

I'd like to see how many of the people who are stepping forward are registered as Republicans. I'd be suprised if it weren't 90+%. Nothing to do with politics, my ass.

[TheEschaton]

So, when're they gonna sign the letter declaring G.W. to be unfit to be Commander-in-Chief? Because, if I recall he didn't even go anywhere to be called "ineffective" at military leadership.


-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

It's all about politics.. always has been.. always will be.

I tend to believe that he is not the best choice of President, but to say that this has nothing to do with politics is a bunch of horseshit.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
So, when're they gonna sign the letter declaring G.W. to be unfit to be Commander-in-Chief? Because, if I recall he didn't even go anywhere to be called "ineffective" at military leadership.


-TheE-

<Florida>
Didn't the people already decide that he wasn't the best man for the job once?
</Florida>

[Hulkein]

No, he won Florida.

[Parkbandit]

The "He's not really our President, he wasn't elected by the majority of the people" argument is highly ignorant and should be dropped.

Seriously.

[TheEschaton]

By the way, who is CNSnews? Their motto is "The Right News. Right Now." which makes me suspicious at best.

Unfortunately, they have nothing on their website to indicate who they are, or why they are valid reporters of the news.

And, I cannot find this story anywhere else, not even on FoxNews.com. Drudge has a link to the story, but nothing of his own, but hell, Drudge is perhaps the worst source you could have. Newsmax has a link to the story as well, but again, Newsmax = teh suck.

-TheE-

[Prestius]

ROFL .. CNSNews?

You mean the same CNS News whose parent company is the Media Research Center? The same MRC whose stated goal is to stamp out a perceived "Liberal Bias in the media"? Seriously here .. do some critical thinking for yourself. Is there the slightest possibility that perhaps CNSNews has a political agenda?

And gee whiz .. the guy heading up this group is none other than John O'Neill, a guy that has had it out for Kerry since the 70's - they even debated each other on the Dick Cavett show. O'Neill was also used by Nixon to try and discredit Kerry's post-service anti-war efforts.

And I still can't beleive the conservatives are bashing at Kerry for his war record. If Kerry, a guy who served his country in Vietnam is unfit to be commander-in-chief, where does that put Bush who partied through the war in the Air National Guard in Alabama?

The stated mission of the Swift Boat Vets for Truth states:

"We believe it is incumbent on ALL presidential candidates to be totally honest and forthcoming regarding personal background and policy information that would help the voting public make an informed decision when choosing the next president of the United States."

Why are they not demanding the same from Bush?

-P

[TheEschaton]

I can't even find a website for the "Swift Boat Veterans for Truth", who the fuck are these people?

-TheE-

[Rowi]

As I served in the USMC..........I know some folks that got medals, but if we hit combat they woulda been the first to get shot! not by enemy fire either.........If former people that served under or over this man think he is a piece of shit.......hmm, that means alot to me, but as with anything CNS says I always take it with a grain of salt. If people come and sign this letter, well, what is thier background as well.

[Latrinsorm]

It's one thing to laugh this off as another conservative attack against poor ol' John Kerry.

But come on, 90% of the people he served with? Ninety?!?!? Y'all don't see the slightest possibility that gee whiz maybe John Kerry wasn't competent?

And sure, it's been awhile. I don't really see what experience he could have gone through that would make him a leader of the caliber I would want for President, though.

[Ilvane]

I bet the guy who's life John Kerry saved would say plenty of good things about him.

Now if you want to argue about his service, at least come up with a source that is half credible. CNS is hardly that.

-A

[Sean]

I thought Dole had a somewhat interesting perspective on the whole thing.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040503/ap_on_el_pr/kerry_dole_3

also..

<<I don't really see what experience he could have gone through that would make him a leader of the caliber I would want for President, though.>>

Because being Governor of Texas or a partner in the Texas Rangers is much better?

[Hulkein]

Not being a flip-flopper helps.

I really wouldn't care if Kerry pulled a Rambo and took out multiple squadrons of Charlie alone.. he still would be politically spineless.

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Hulkein]

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Not being a flip-flopper helps.

I really wouldn't care if Kerry pulled a Rambo and took out multiple squadrons of Charlie alone.. he still is spineless.

Are we back to the flip-flops?

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/3/7/213753/1954

[Ravenstorm]

Because being thoughtful and willing to change your opinion as the situation changes is such a bad quality to have in a President. It's so much better to have one that makes up his mind to do somehting months in advance and then doesn't let anything stop him at all and never, ever change his mind or admits to having made mistakes.

Me? I'll take the intelligent flip-flopper, thanks.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tijay
Because being Governor of Texas or a partner in the Texas Rangers is much better? I think Bush has been a good leader as President. I wasn't of voting age the first time around, so I didn't make a decision then.

[Hulkein]

Like 70% of that list is null.

<<Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.>>

OMG FLIP FLOP!!1

Actually take the time to read them all, most of them are meaningless.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Actually take the time to read them all, most of them are meaningless.

Exactly my point, most of what is put into the Kerry flip-flop is also meaningless.

And I agree with what Raven said entirely. I'd rather have a president who's willing to take a second look at things and look for better ways to accomplish things then one who's so stuck in his ways he's blind to a better way of doing things.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein

<<Bush said the "mission accomplished" banner was put up by the sailors. Bush later admits it was his advance team.>>

OMG FLIP FLOP!!1

You're right. That was just a blatant LIE.

Raven

[Hulkein]

Wezas, you just accused Bush of being a flip-flop yet you agree with Ravenstorm saying he is too stubborn to make changes? ...ok.

Edited to add- I really don't care who put up a BANNER ON A SHIP. Most likely it wasn't a lie but a mistake of who he thought put the banner up.

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Hulkein]

[Sean]

You just said most of his flip flops were meaningless. So as long as we are drawing implications can't you infer that by your post he would be stubborn and unchanging on things with meaning then?

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Wezas, you just accused Bush of being a flip-flop yet you agree with Ravenstorm saying he is too stubborn to make changes? ...ok.
[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Hulkein]

There's a difference between thinking thinks out and making a decision vs. being pressured into doing something by the public. And most of what was in the link I submitted were more lies then flip-flopping. His education cuts for example.

[Ilvane]

http://www.johnkerry.com/pressroom/releases/pr_2004_0117d.html

That's the story of the account of the guy Kerry saved.:) I think while it is on Kerry's website, it gives direct quotes from this man.

Enjoy!

-A

[Parkbandit]

Hey.. at least the Democrats have 2008 to look forward to.

Let 2004 go.. it's a lost cause.

PS - I heard a rumor that the Democratic party was 'fishing' for a new candidate.. any truth in that?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

The right wing vs left wing stuff never gets old between you guys. I mean NEVER! Just need Edine to chime in, and this whole thread will be hijacked too!

[Prestius]

I find it interesting that the follwing names are not included in their list: Eugene Thorson, David Alston, Del Sandusky, Michael Medeiros, or Tom Belodeau. Well .. we'll cut Tom a break since he passed away.

Anyone care to guess who these guys are and why their opinions would probably count the most?

-P

-jon

[Sean]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
The right wing vs left wing stuff never gets old between you guys. I mean NEVER! Just need Edine to chime in, and this whole thread will be hijacked too!

You conservative piece of shit you!

[longshot]

I just don't get this digging up really old dirt tactic by either party.

Wasn't dubya blowing rails off hooker's tits before he found Jesus?

Parkbandit is right... it's all politics at this point.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Prestius
I find it interesting that the follwing names are not included in their list: Eugene Thorson, David Alston, Del Sandusky, Michael Medeiros, or Tom Belodeau. Well .. we'll cut Tom a break since he passed away.

Anyone care to guess who these guys are and why their opinions would probably count the most?

-P

-jon

I cheated, looked up their names. They were the only ones actually there, on his boat. The only ones who truely knew what went on.

[Prestius]

Originally posted by longshot
I just don't get this digging up really old dirt tactic by either party.

Wasn't dubya blowing rails off hooker's tits before he found Jesus?

Parkbandit is right... it's all politics at this point.

Yes .. it is politics. Definately. But it's a bigger issue than that. I decided that every time I see one of these clearly biased loads of trash being posted that I was not going to just let it go.

It's a standard tactic, perfected by Karl Rove, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, et al, that if you say something over and over again, whether it is true or not, it becomes common knowledge and a de facto truth. I simply refuse to let data from obviously biased news sources - like the one in this thread - stand. It's how there are still many many people out there who think that Saddam was connected to 9/11. It's how Clinton is considered by many to be a rapist. It's how most people think that the McDonalds coffee spilling lawsuit was a travesty of wasteful jury awards.


More than anything else I think it's important that you understand the implications of your argument instead of just parroting some conservative news source - which seems to be the rage these days.

-P

[Parkbandit]

Yes.. because only the Republicans would do something like that.

I keep forgetting that Democrats are well about that sort of thing. Al Franken is perfect and always is above that Republican type behavior.

They both do it... to say only one party does it is extremely ignorant and biased.

[Prestius]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Yes.. because only the Republicans would do something like that.

I keep forgetting that Democrats are well about that sort of thing. Al Franken is perfect and always is above that Republican type behavior.

They both do it... to say only one party does it is extremely ignorant and biased.

Oh yeah .. no doubt. There are more than enough examples from both sides of the ideological aisle. I just tend to see sites like CNS and NewsMax quoted from as a factual reference a lot more than I see CommonDreams or MoveOn.

Al Franken is a funny guy and the titles of his books crack me up. Truth be told, however, for every Al Franken there are a multitude of O'Reilly's, Hannity's, Elder's and Limbaugh's.

-P

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Prestius
Al Franken is a funny guy and the titles of his books crack me up. Truth be told, however, for every Al Franken there are a multitude of O'Reilly's, Hannity's, Elder's and Limbaugh's.

-P

That's only because a liberal radio show has yet to be successful, whereas the most popular show on news radio is Limbaugh (and thus the clones).

That would be your personal bias showing through. To say one side is better than another is simply the way you perceive the situation. The fact that both sides do it should be cause enough to admonish the both of them.

That said, there is something to be said if 90% of the people who worked with Kerry felt he was incompetent. Alot of times, especially in a military community the ones you work with directly will be unable to give you a good idea of how he works. They might like the guy profusely, which would impact how they answer questions such as the ones being poised, but he could still be highly incompetent. There are alot of people that I work with that I like on a personal level, but think are Douche bags when it comes to the job. That doesn't mean i'd trash talk them if someone else who isn't in the unit came around asking questions. It all depends on the situation.

[TheEschaton]

Don't forget the Ann Coulter's Prestius, and their whole "liberals are traitors and should be deported and/or killed" line of reasoning.


-TheE-

[peam]

http://www.mcsweeneys.net/links/bush/

There's some flamebait.

[i remember halloween]

kerry is a retard

[Artha]

Truth be told, however, for every Al Franken there are a multitude of O'Reilly's, Hannity's, Elder's and Limbaugh's.

Or...maybe you just notice it more.

[Warriorbird]

And Bush really liked powdered cocaine. Who cares.

[Prestius]

>> That said, there is something to be said if 90% of the people who worked with Kerry felt he was incompetent. <<

See how well it works? The message, no matter true or not - has done it's job Where on earth did you come up with the fact that 90% of the people who Kerry worked with thought he was incompetent?

-P

[TheEschaton]

"Not only a majority of the people who served with him feel that way, but a vast and overwhelming majority," O'Neill said. He added that more than "ninety percent of the people contacted by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth responded to the request to sign their name, with only 12 declining to sign.

I'm with you on this one, P, but it was right in the article.

-TheE-

[Prestius]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
"Not only a majority of the people who served with him feel that way, but a vast and overwhelming majority," O'Neill said. He added that more than "ninety percent of the people contacted by Swift Boat Veterans for Truth responded to the request to sign their name, with only 12 declining to sign.

I'm with you on this one, P, but it was right in the article.

-TheE-

This is exactly what I'm talking about - 90% *of the people they contacted* does not mean 90% of the people he worked with. It means they contacted about 120 people. Who exactly? What's the sampling? Did they contact the actual guys that he commanded on his swift boat? Is it at all possible that he contacted people to sign this that he already knew were on his side of the equation? Do you honestly beleive this is a fair polling considering who O'Neill is and what his history with Kerry is?

Look .. it may very well be true that Kerry is a crappy leader - or he may be an amazing leader. What bothers me more than anything else is that the populace has utterly abdicated it's desire to actually THINK for themselves about anything and just take whatever pabulum is fed to them.

-P

[Artha]

Non-newsmax source (http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040503a.html).


"We have 19 of 23 officers who served with [Kerry]. We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam. They all signed a letter that says he is unfit to be commander-in-chief," O'Neill said.

"The ranks of the people signing [the letter] range from admiral down to seaman, and they run across the entire spectrum of politics, specialties, and political feelings about the Vietnam War," he added.

[TheEschaton]

When you said "non-newsmax" source, I thought it would be like, CNN, but you simply used the same source the article on the first page did, namely, CNSnews.com, which Prestius has shown to be a front for the Media whatever it was.

-TheE-

[Wezas]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
When you said "non-newsmax" source, I thought it would be like, CNN, but you simply used the same source the article on the first page did, namely, CNSnews.com, which Prestius has shown to be a front for the Media whatever it was.

-TheE-

Yeah, just reading the story links on the right hand side of the page tells you exactly what CNSnews is all about.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Artha
Non-newsmax source (http://www.cnsnews.com//ViewSpecialReports.asp?Page=/SpecialReports/archive/200405/SPE20040503a.html).


"We have 19 of 23 officers who served with [Kerry]. We have every commanding officer he ever had in Vietnam. They all signed a letter that says he is unfit to be commander-in-chief," O'Neill said.

"The ranks of the people signing [the letter] range from admiral down to seaman, and they run across the entire spectrum of politics, specialties, and political feelings about the Vietnam War," he added.

Well that answers Prestius' question as to who was sampled.

[Edited on 5-4-2004 by Hulkein]

[Artha]

I first saw the article on Newsmax, so I figured the original link would be from there. I generally don't read the first page (that's when everyone's all mean and stuff and I want to go slam my nuts in a car door.


My bad.

Prestius, please don't put things in my mouth. I never said anything about the validity of the claims being made. I say It would be pretty significant if 90% of the people he worked with thought he was a shit bag. Your an intelligent man, therefore I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you know the connotations of the word if.