Help rolling a rogue

[Wheelerm]

I've played sorcerers and warriors, but never a rogue. Honestly, I've played enough to enjoy the game for years, but never got so involved in the game that I obsessed over stats and build strategies. I mostly play for fun and always do a quick-gen character when I roll a new one.

I guess what I'm looking for is a training tool for a rogue that I can have fun with. I want to pick my own boxes, and be able to hunt a little over my own level. Any suggestions?

I rolled a Dark Elf Rogue last night in Ta'Vaalor. He's still level 0, so I would be starting with a clean slate for him.

Thanks.

[Ivex]

I suggest the standard maxed stats in STR/LOG/AGI and all that stuff while swinging a claid for the first 29 days, then settling stuff down before your training period expires.

You'll want good Dexterity for picking but it grows quickly for dark elves I believe. I think INF can be your tank stat so the rest can get boosted

[Wheelerm]

Thanks for the reply. I guess I was looking for something more along the lines of how to train him? OHE, shield use, disarming, lockpick, etc? His stats are already rolled, and they aren't too bad for a start.

[Drew]

Tell us what weapon style you want to use, that'll help.

[Wheelerm]

One-handed Edged weapons - would like to go for dual weapon eventually, but will probably stick with sword and board for a while. I'm not real sure if I am interested in Ranged weapons, as I don't know much about them.

[Ayamei]

I think the big question with rogue training is if you are going to pick locks, pockets, both, or neither. That will determine how many points you have left over for all your combat skills.

If you use a shield, just single train in it. Double dodge at least, double train stalk and hide and perception is a must, ambush 1x or more, CM as much as you can, PT at least 1x. Pick up MIU or arcane symbols if not both. Try to afford some MOC, my rogue is .5x in it.

If you have a warrior, a rogue build with no picking skills(pockets or locks) is very similar to that of a warrior + hiding, I would guess just less weapon skills.

[Ayamei]

Also if you do TWC you will want to double train in that, so you don't miss left handed strikes. That's a lot of TPs. Here is my rogues training, TWC locksmith and she sucks as fighting but can pick boxes 20+ levels over her head. She is 26 trains.

Two Weapon Combat..................| 154 54 (2x)
Armor Use..........................| 120 30 (stopping here for brig)
Combat Maneuvers...................| 111 27 (1x)
Edged Weapons......................| 154 54 (2x)
Ambush.............................| 111 27 (1x)
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 70 15 (slighty over .5)
Physical Fitness...................| 111 27 (1x)
Dodging............................| 124 32 (1.5ish this sucks)
Arcane Symbols.....................| 54 11 (add more as needed)
Harness Power......................| 20 4 (ditto)
Disarming Traps....................| 154 54 (2x)
Picking Locks......................| 154 54 (2x)
Stalking and Hiding................| 154 54 (2x)
Perception.........................| 154 54 (2x)
Climbing...........................| 58 12 (1x swim + climb
Swimming...........................| 70 15 will add more if needed)
Pickpocketing......................| 154 54 (2x)

I think triple training in skills is a waste of points at lower levels. I'm sure lots disagree with that. Also, I think you have to more to gain from picking up 403 and 404 than 3x locksmithing skills. it seems to be better for learning lock mastery stuff since you need challenging boxes, but you have that extra umph when needed. I need to increase my dodge really bad, I feel like I can't hunt without mobiles, good that they are easy to get.

I would use a shield instead of TWC if I was more focused on solo fighting with her, but I tend to farm boxes on my ranger and then drop them off for this one to open, and learn enough from that.

Don't tear my crappy rogue training a new one too bad please guys, hah.

[Ayamei]

she also know up to 404 in spells

[HJFudge]

My rogues training plan is a taaaad different then Ayamei's at 21. He can pick well and skin well..I went for money making skills. His combat is solid, but nothing to write home about.

As fer strategy...I hunt from hiding...use Smastery to help with sneak. Amb left leg, hide, Amb head will take out most opponents.

Eddic (at level 21), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 146 46
Armor Use..........................| 70 15
Combat Maneuvers...................| 93 21
Edged Weapons......................| 146 46
Ambush.............................| 142 42
Physical Fitness...................| 93 21
Dodging............................| 146 46
Arcane Symbols.....................| 20 4
Harness Power......................| 10 2
Survival...........................| 96 22
Disarming Traps....................| 153 53
Picking Locks......................| 153 53
Stalking and Hiding................| 142 42
Perception.........................| 153 53
Climbing...........................| 50 10
First Aid..........................| 96 22


I put extra points into pick/disarm/perception, though I am not sure if over 2x perception is helping anything. Armor I'll stop at brig, HOPEFULLY at lvl 30ish. But I am in no rush...if I get hit, I'm doing something wrong at this level.

The harness power is in there as I am CoL

[xt3kn1x]

The cool thing about rogues is there's really no standard build. Many people make rogues primarily for lockpicking, since they're obviously the best at it, but there's so many different ways to play one. Sword/board/ambush is the oldest, most common way to play a rogue, which is how mine is. Here's my skill set and it allows me to fight things roughly 5-10 levels over my head, plus pick about 10-20 levels over my head.

Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 145 45 (1x going for armor stealth 2 and stopping)
Shield Use.........................| 145 45 (1x)
Combat Maneuvers...................| 149 49 (1x, with additional points dumped in)
Edged Weapons......................| 190 90 (2x)
Ambush.............................| 190 90 (2x)
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5 (Just for mstrike, dont use it that much so may drop it)
Physical Fitness...................| 151 51 (1x with extra points dropped in)
Dodging............................| 190 90 (2x)
Arcane Symbols.....................| 74 16 (points as they come. mostly for self spellups)
Magic Item Use.....................| 54 11 (same as above)
Harness Power......................| 25 5 (for CoL and picking)
Disarming Traps....................| 212 112 (2.5x)
Picking Locks......................| 212 112 (2.5x)
Stalking and Hiding................| 190 90 (2x)
Perception.........................| 190 90 (2x)
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming...........................| 90 20
Pickpocketing......................| 190 90 (2x - never really use it, but it's fun once in a while, cheap too. can always untrain it later)

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 4 (MUST for picking, imo)

Character is pretty self sufficient. I can hunt equal level critters with just 401 and CoL signs, because i stay out of sight. Also have vanish cman in case things don't go as planned.

[DrZaius]

I went with blunt/shield. I did TWC blunt for a while, but the points were super tight, and I kept getting stuck in RT.

1x armor
1x shield
2x blunt
1x CM (to 404, then work towards 1.5x)
2x Ambush
1x PT
2x Dodge
5 Climb (to get to Zul)
2x Disarm
2x Picking
2x Stalking & Hiding
2x Perception
4 Harness Power (for spells/sigils)
Arcane Symbols up to 10, when you have the points
404 by 16.

Can hunt fine, pick his own boxes, and a mace to the noggin is especially satisfying because the death crits are so easy to reach (plus it's easier to aim for than an eye).

[Wheelerm]

I'll be honest, I'm building him as a cash cow for another character I may build later. I want to whore him out to pick boxes for folks, but I do want to have fun hunting with him, too.

Not interested in pick pocketing other people's money. Not that there's anything wrong with those that do, but it's a dimension I'm not personally interested in. Once he gets a lot older, I would like to make him an assassin for hire. You know...someone that a youngster can hire to get his "problem" solved.

[DrZaius]

My build was to get to 2x picking / 404 as quickly as possible, to open boxes for my friends. He's worked out really well, and I'm able to Solo him without any trouble. I experimented with Ranged, but it apparently is very difficult before 40; TWC was fun, but again I kept getting stuck in hard RT out in the open, and wearing only doubles stuck in offensive is a fast way to get killed.

[subzero]

I'll be honest, I'm building him as a cash cow for another character I may build later. I want to whore him out to pick boxes for folks, but I do want to have fun hunting with him, too.


Good luck with the box picking. It's been a while since I've done anything in prime, but picking spots are fucking ghost towns from what I recall. Maybe with the number of people on lnet you'll be able to pick up some additional work, but I don't think I'd rely on picking for fun or money.

[audioserf]

The advent of ;townsmith has drastically reduced the number of people who bother looking for another player to help them with boxes. It eats into your profits (considerably) but is instantaneous and convenient. Sucks but I think that's a big factor.

[Ayamei]

In the landing there are usually people looking for locksmiths very frequently. Expecting to make good money from tips from picking boxes isn't going to happen. Picking all your own own boxes and farming critters who drop lots will bring you some good silver.

[subzero]

In the landing there are usually people looking for locksmiths very frequently. Expecting to make good money from tips from picking boxes isn't going to happen. Picking all your own own boxes and farming critters who drop lots will bring you some good silver.

I bet most of them have either kobold or mino boxes. Pretty large gap for trying to get something out of the deal as a picker.

[Wheelerm]

Okay, so far I've gotten about 4500 from level 15, and here are my stats so far:

Rischaan (at level 14), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current | Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 93 21
Shield Use.........................| 93 21
Combat Maneuvers...................| 93 21
Edged Weapons......................| 108 26
Ambush.............................| 93 21
Physical Fitness...................| 93 21
Dodging............................| 93 21
Arcane Symbols.....................| 74 16
Survival...........................| 62 13
Disarming Traps....................| 114 28
Picking Locks......................| 114 28
Stalking and Hiding................| 99 23
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 86 19
Swimming...........................| 86 19
First Aid..........................| 70 15
Trading............................| 82 18
Pickpocketing......................| 40 8
Training Points: 46 Phy 32 Mnt
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

362 days remain until the annual FIXSKILLS is to be granted, on 05/20/2012.

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in the FAQs.

I'm having trouble hunting at my own level. Undead over my level are fine, however. I am carrying a Backsword 5X, a Vultite shield, and wearing 5X double leather. I have no problem picking and disarming boxes. My hardest lock so far is -300.

I want to move to two weapon combat, but don't really know what would be the best way to do this. Can you guys take a look at this and offer suggestions? Note that my 30-day migration period will begin as soon as I choose to degrade a skill. I don't know exactly what this means, so please clarify and explain this, too.

I'm sure I'll have more questions as you answer this post. Thanks.

[Wheelerm]

Here's what I did for two weapon combat:

Rischaan (at level 15), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 86 19
Armor Use..........................| 93 21
Shield Use.........................| 93 21
Combat Maneuvers...................| 90 20
Edged Weapons......................| 108 26
Ambush.............................| 99 23
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 0 0
Physical Fitness...................| 99 23
Dodging............................| 96 22
Arcane Symbols.....................| 74 16
Magic Item Use.....................| 0 0
Survival...........................| 62 13
Disarming Traps....................| 120 30
Picking Locks......................| 120 30
Stalking and Hiding................| 105 25
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 86 19
Swimming...........................| 86 19
First Aid..........................| 70 15
Trading............................| 82 18
Pickpocketing......................| 40 8
Training Points: 5 Phy 4 Mnt
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

362 days remain until the annual FIXSKILLS is to be granted, on 05/20/2012.

You started this migration period on Tuesday, 5/24/2011 at 21:44:10 EDT. You have 29 days, 23 hours, 2 minutes remaining in your current 30 day migration period.

[Wheelerm]

Results of two weapon combat. The raider orc is a level 10, which currently gives me trouble. The first strike was ambushing the right leg. The rest of the attacks were not ambushes, just regular attacks.

You leap from hiding to attack!
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +165 vs DS: +59 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +57 = +197
... and hit for 35 points of damage!
Quick, powerful slash to the raider orc's right knee!
The raider orc is knocked to the ground!
The raider orc is stunned!
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +156 vs DS: +15 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +83 = +258
... and hit for 44 points of damage!
Well placed shot pierces knee, that hurt!
Roundtime: 9 sec.
R>
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
The raider orc stumbles dazedly, somehow managing to block the attack with her twohanded sword!
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +156 vs DS: +65 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +22 = +147
... and hit for 7 points of damage!
Light, bruising slash to the raider orc's left thigh.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +165 vs DS: +65 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +16 = +150
... and hit for 8 points of damage!
Weak slash to the raider orc's right arm.
That doesn't even sting.
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +156 vs DS: +65 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +21 = +146
... and hit for 7 points of damage!
Thrust catches chin.
Leaves an impression but no cut.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +165 vs DS: +64 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +26 = +161
... and hit for 10 points of damage!
Broken finger on the raider orc's right hand!
You swing a silver-edged black rolaren backsword at a raider orc!
AS: +156 vs DS: +64 with AvD: +34 + d100 roll: +95 = +221
... and hit for 21 points of damage!
Quick slash to the raider orc's upper right arm!
Just a nick.
A raider orc screams her defiance skyward one last time and dies.
Roundtime: 6 sec.
R>skin
You cannot skin a raider orc.
>search
You search the raider orc.
She had a ragged sack, a twohanded sword, a metal breastplate.
She had 153 silvers on her.
You gather the remaining 153 coins.
She had a piece of banded onyx on her!
She had nothing else of value.
A raider orc withers away until she is no more.

[Rhovan]

If you are having trouble in combat, make sure you are 2x in your weapon type. You can slow down on the climbing and swimming to get the points as you won't need much when you are young and rogues will be fairly good at both anyway.

When it comes to hunting, go with normal method until you are doing well enough to branch out (hide, ambush leg, hide, ambush head). No point training in hiding and ambush if you aren't going to use them.

[Wheelerm]

The thing that's most distressing is the round time. The other thing that bothers me is I dropped the shield training and took up TWC, but my skill sheet still reflects training in shield use and in TWC. Is the migration period? 30 days from now the shield training will be replaced with TWC?

[DaCapn]

You've got a lot of ranks that I consider to be way too tertiary for early levels:

Survival...........................| 62 13
Arcane Symbols.....................| 74 16
Swimming...........................| 86 19
First Aid..........................| 70 15
Trading............................| 82 18
Pickpocketing......................| 40 8

I'd eliminate these entirely (bring arcane symbols down to 5-10 ranks) and pump them into more primary skills if you're having trouble.

With respect to TWC:
- What is your AGIDEX?
- What armor are you in?
- Are you encumbered?
- Your weapon choice needs to be optimized for your AGIDEX. Try handaxe/short sword, dual short swords, or short sword/dagger.
- http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Roundtime
- http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/TWC

With respect to skill migration:
- Skills don't migrate instantly. Your points slowly get converted from one skill to another as long as you're in-game.
- The 30-day migration period is mostly meaningless. All it's really saying is "in the past 30 days or less, this is how many TPs you've migrated between skills." If you're migrating for longer than 30 days, the statistics concerning your migration rate are cleared and they're calculated fresh. It has no mechanical impact.
- Hunting while you are actively migrating skills between combat styles tends to cripple you. Try picking boxes until the points migrate (migration rate is faster when you're absorbing experience).

[Wheelerm]

You've got a lot of ranks that I consider to be way too tertiary for early levels:

Survival...........................| 62 13
Arcane Symbols.....................| 74 16
Swimming...........................| 86 19
First Aid..........................| 70 15
Trading............................| 82 18
Pickpocketing......................| 40 8

I'd eliminate these entirely (bring arcane symbols down to 5-10 ranks) and pump them into more primary skills if you're having trouble.

With respect to TWC:
- What is your AGIDEX?
- What armor are you in?
- Are you encumbered?
- Your weapon choice needs to be optimized for your AGIDEX. Try handaxe/short sword, dual short swords, or short sword/dagger.
- http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/Roundtime
- http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/TWC

With respect to skill migration:
- Skills don't migrate instantly. Your points slowly get converted from one skill to another as long as you're in-game.
- The 30-day migration period is mostly meaningless. All it's really saying is "in the past 30 days or less, this is how many TPs you've migrated between skills." If you're migrating for longer than 30 days, the statistics concerning your migration rate are cleared and they're calculated fresh. It has no mechanical impact.
- Hunting while you are actively migrating skills between combat styles tends to cripple you. Try picking boxes until the points migrate (migration rate is faster when you're absorbing experience).

Thank you for the advice...Where to begin?

1. So, Arcane Symbols can stay at about 8 permanently, or I just don't need to worry so much about it right now? Will Arcane set this low still allow me to disarm scarabs and glyphed locks?

2. I don't recall my AGI or DEX off hand, I can check this tonight and post them if it will help you to answer my questions, but I'm in 5X Double Leathers, using two Rolaren Backswords, and usually stay "somewhat encumbered," according to my ;uberbar window.

3. The skill migration you described makes sense. I guess this is why my skill window shows both shield use and TWC. If I understand you correctly, eventually the shield use skill will migrate over to the TWC skill. So, the reason why I'm "crippled" during the migration is because there will be a time when I can't really use a shield or two weapons effectively as these skills migrate over.

4. After I recover the tertiary skills you listed, would you put them in edged weapons, or what? My problem with hunting isn't necessarily that I can't hit my target, it's if I get swarmed I get in trouble quick, and I seem to be too squishy without buffs. I rarely miss while ambushing, and usually get a stun right away.

Thanks again for reading this and offering up your advice. It really helps a lot.

EDIT: That's messed up...I just looked over my previous post where I showed swapping over to TWC, and it looks like I kept my shield training and dropped my multi-opponent combat? Maybe I made a mistake. I'll look again tonight. Either way, I think I will push the recovered TPs into MOC, since this seems to be where I have the most trouble.

[Wheelerm]

Okay, based on what people have posted so far, this is what I think I should do:

Armor Use: 1.5X (I got my first armor stealth about a couple of days ago)
TWC: 2X
CM: 1X
Edged Weapons: 2X
Ambush: 1X
MOC: 0.5X
Phys Fit: 1.0X
Dodging: 1.5X
Arcane Symbols: 5-10 ranks
Harness Power: 2-5 ranks
Magic Item Use: 2-5 ranks
Disarming Traps: 2X
Picking Locks: 2X
Stalking and Hiding: 2X
Perception: 2X
Climbing: Not really a lot right now, but probably keep 5-7 ranks
Swimming: Not really a lot right now, but probably keep 5-7 ranks
Pickpocketing: I don't do this, but since it's so cheap, 2X

Is 401 and 404 in the minor elemental circle?

[Murr]

Okay, based on what people have posted so far, this is what I think I should do:

Armor Use: 1.5X (I got my first armor stealth about a couple of days ago)
TWC: 2X
CM: 1X
Edged Weapons: 2X
Ambush: 1X
MOC: 0.5X
Phys Fit: 1.0X
Dodging: 1.5X
Arcane Symbols: 5-10 ranks
Harness Power: 2-5 ranks
Magic Item Use: 2-5 ranks
Disarming Traps: 2X
Picking Locks: 2X
Stalking and Hiding: 2X
Perception: 2X
Climbing: Not really a lot right now, but probably keep 5-7 ranks
Swimming: Not really a lot right now, but probably keep 5-7 ranks
Pickpocketing: I don't do this, but since it's so cheap, 2X

Is 401 and 404 in the minor elemental circle?

I would highly recommend AT LEAST 2xing Dodge, and 2x ambush.. drop MOC ranks if necessary to do so..

[Wheelerm]

I would highly recommend AT LEAST 2xing Dodge, and 2x ambush.. drop MOC ranks if necessary to do so..

You are probably right...I made these changes last night, and it tells me I will be in migration for about 3 weeks to convert all of my changed points over.

I guess I'll stick to doing bounties for a while. I will probably have to do a little more tweaking after the migration is complete anyway.

[Rhovan]

Work them in when you want, but in the long run I'd recommend 15-20 for a smith.
You also said you get in trouble with multiple critters. I'd suggest 10 ranks of MOC at some point to help, but using combat maneuvers is the best way to thin the crowd. Personally, I like silent strike with shadow mastery. Stun a creature while staying in the shadows, then kill the next one.

I wanted to add, I think the 3 weeks to convert is time in game. It'll be awhile.

[Wheelerm]

I got my annual fixskills last night!! Oh, happy day!

[Wheelerm]

After using the Fixskills:

Rischaan (at level 15), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Two Weapon Combat..................| 120 30 30
Armor Use..........................| 99 23 23
Combat Maneuvers...................| 70 15 15
Edged Weapons......................| 120 30 30
Ambush.............................| 120 30 30
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 35 7 7
Physical Fitness...................| 70 15 15
Dodging............................| 120 30 30
Arcane Symbols.....................| 35 7 7
Magic Item Use.....................| 15 3 3
Harness Power......................| 15 3 3
Survival...........................| 70 15 15
Disarming Traps....................| 120 30 30
Picking Locks......................| 120 30 30
Stalking and Hiding................| 120 30 30
Perception.........................| 120 30 30
Climbing...........................| 35 7 7
Swimming...........................| 35 7 7
First Aid..........................| 40 8 8
Pickpocketing......................| 70 15 15
Training Points: 22 Phy 11 Mnt

[No Gnomes Is Good News]

After using the Fixskills:

Rischaan (at level 15), your base skill bonuses, ranks and goals are:
Skill Name | Actual Actual
| Bonus Ranks Goals In-Game Time to Goal
Two Weapon Combat..................| 120 30 30
Armor Use..........................| 99 23 23
Combat Maneuvers...................| 70 15 15
Edged Weapons......................| 120 30 30
Ambush.............................| 120 30 30
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 35 7 7
Physical Fitness...................| 70 15 15
Dodging............................| 120 30 30
Arcane Symbols.....................| 35 7 7
Magic Item Use.....................| 15 3 3
Harness Power......................| 15 3 3
Survival...........................| 70 15 15
Disarming Traps....................| 120 30 30
Picking Locks......................| 120 30 30
Stalking and Hiding................| 120 30 30
Perception.........................| 120 30 30
Climbing...........................| 35 7 7
Swimming...........................| 35 7 7
First Aid..........................| 40 8 8
Pickpocketing......................| 70 15 15
Training Points: 22 Phy 11 Mnt

You have quite a bit of stuff goin on there at only 15 trains.

[Wheelerm]

You have quite a bit of stuff goin on there at only 15 trains.

Is that good?

[DaCapn]

Is that good?

I'd wager he was agreeing that the plan he quoted spreads you too thin.

[Wheelerm]

I'd wager he was agreeing that the plan he quoted spreads you too thin.

Okay. Here is the training plan I setup after I fixskilled:

TWC: 2X
Armor Use: 1.5X
CM: 1X
Edged Weapons: 2X
Ambush 2X
MOC: 0.5X
Phy Fit: 1X
Dodging: 2X
Arcane Symbols: 7 ranks
Magic Item Use: 3 ranks
Harness Power: 3 ranks
Survival: 1X
Disarming Traps: 2X
Picking Locks: 2X
Stalking and Hiding: 2X
Perception: 2X
Climbing: 7 ranks
Swimming: 7 ranks
First Aid: 8 ranks
Pickpocketing: 1X

Where do you recommend making changes?

For what it's worth, I don't have a lot of the problems I was having before, and my AS jumped from +165 to +190 for both hands. Ambushing is much better, hiding is quicker (less RT), and my RT after a regular attack with both weapons dropped from 8 sec to 5 sec. Ambushing RT dropped from 13 sec to 8 sec. Since ambushing usually results in a stun, I'm in pretty good shape with one creature in the room. If there's more than one, well then, I have to wait longer before I can hide and ambush again. I did pick up a rank of shadow mastery, and already had 3 ranks of cut throat.

[Axhinde]

Id' 2x CM, and unless you're going to 1x both FA and Survival don't waste your points. 1x PP isn't going to do you much good either, probably.

[No Gnomes Is Good News]

Okay. Here is the training plan I setup after I fixskilled:

TWC: 2X
Armor Use: 1.5X
CM: 1X
Edged Weapons: 2X
Ambush 2X
MOC: 0.5X
Phy Fit: 1X
Dodging: 2X
Arcane Symbols: 7 ranks
Magic Item Use: 3 ranks
Harness Power: 3 ranks
Survival: 1X
Disarming Traps: 2X
Picking Locks: 2X
Stalking and Hiding: 2X
Perception: 2X
Climbing: 7 ranks
Swimming: 7 ranks
First Aid: 8 ranks
Pickpocketing: 1X

Where do you recommend making changes?

For what it's worth, I don't have a lot of the problems I was having before, and my AS jumped from +165 to +190 for both hands. Ambushing is much better, hiding is quicker (less RT), and my RT after a regular attack with both weapons dropped from 8 sec to 5 sec. Ambushing RT dropped from 13 sec to 8 sec. Since ambushing usually results in a stun, I'm in pretty good shape with one creature in the room. If there's more than one, well then, I have to wait longer before I can hide and ambush again. I did pick up a rank of shadow mastery, and already had 3 ranks of cut throat.

Drop Armor to 1x, Drop Pickpocketing all together, Drop Survival, Drop First Aid.

Increase CM to 2x.

Don't bother with Cutthroat cman just yet, I'd first focus on getting Smastery and Vanish.

[Wheelerm]

Okay. Thank you for the help. I don't want to go through the migration process, so I'll quit training in armor use for the next 7 levels, and will spend the points on CM instead. If I need extra points, I'll deduct from the pickpocketing, survival, and first aid, since a migration from those skills shouldn't impact hunting.

EDIT: I should be able to unlearn cut throat cman without penalty, right?

[Bobmuhthol]

I would forget melee and go max hiding/ranged/perception/ambush(? whatever raised ranged AS) and 2x picking/disarm. You should be able to uphunt fine and pick your own boxes, and with the right set of macros, rogue guild skills, and CMs killing becomes effortless.

[Axhinde]

I would forget melee and go max hiding/ranged/perception/ambush(? whatever raised ranged AS) and 2x picking/disarm. You should be able to uphunt fine and pick your own boxes, and with the right set of macros, rogue guild skills, and CMs killing becomes effortless.

This is another great way to go, though I'd still try for 1x CMAN. If only for wspec and smastery. 3x hiding/perception, minimum 2x dodge.

[Gizmo]

Okay. Thank you for the help. I don't want to go through the migration process, so I'll quit training in armor use for the next 7 levels, and will spend the points on CM instead. If I need extra points, I'll deduct from the pickpocketing, survival, and first aid, since a migration from those skills shouldn't impact hunting.

EDIT: I should be able to unlearn cut throat cman without penalty, right?

Sure, just have to migrate it as usual

[Wheelerm]

I would forget melee and go max hiding/ranged/perception/ambush(? whatever raised ranged AS) and 2x picking/disarm. You should be able to uphunt fine and pick your own boxes, and with the right set of macros, rogue guild skills, and CMs killing becomes effortless.

It was my understanding that ranged really isn't that feasible until much higher levels. Is that true, or not?

Thanks.

[Gizmo]

It was my understanding that ranged really isn't that feasible until much higher levels. Is that true, or not?

Thanks.

Ranged is.

Aiming not so much.

Aiming becomes nice around 40 trains or so.

Ranged overall is plenty feasible at any level

[Logun]

My TWC setup at lvl 61:

Skills:
Skill Name.................................| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 226 126
Armor Use.................................| 160 60
Combat Maneuvers.....................| 226 126
Edged Weapons.........................| 226 126
Ambush....................................| 221 121
Multi Opponent Combat...............| 50 10
Physical Fitness.........................| 163 63
Dodging....................................| 289 189
Harness Power...........................| 93 21
Stalking and Hiding.....................| 226 126
Perception................................| 163 63
Climbing...................................| 120 30
Swimming.................................| 50 10

[Alfster]

Here's my TWC at 55:


Skill Name
Two Weapon Combat...........| 214 114
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Combat Maneuvers..............| 214 114
Edged Weapons..................| 214 114
Ambush.............................| 156 56
Physical Fitness...................| 214 114
Dodging............................| 217 117
Arcane Symbols.....................| 82 18
Magic Item Use.....................| 86 19
Harness Power......................| 20 4
Stalking and Hiding................| 200 100
Perception.........................| 214 114
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Swimming........................| 70 15
Pickpocketing.................... 214 114


I rarely bother to ambush anymore when hunting. I hunt mostly troll kings and harbs, and only hide when I'm hunting harb's. I'd like to get 30 ranks of MOC, but that won't be until my next fix skills.

In the past I"ve done everything from sword/board, to THC, thrown, ranged. I prefer the style of TWC over the rest. Sword/board I could fit in picking skills, but I just don't have the points left for anything with TWC.

*edited to add...I use two handaxes. One's heavy crit weighted, the other has mechanical flares. Ambush RT is 7, while regular attacks are only 5.

[Logun]

I also use two handaxes both heavy crit weighted.

5 sec unaimed strike
6 sec ambush/aimed strike
7 sec mstrike

[Gizmo]

| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 142 42
Armor Use..........................| 93 21
Combat Maneuvers...................| 142 42
Edged Weapons......................| 144 44
Ambush.............................| 142 42
Physical Fitness...................| 142 42
Dodging............................| 142 42
Arcane Symbols.....................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 54 11
Stalking and Hiding................| 144 44
Perception.........................| 96 22
Climbing...........................| 50 10


With the above build, I used daggers ever since level 15. The above is a level 20 build...

Ambush aimed 4sec rt
3sec open rt

Worked easily for most things

[BigPun]

Its my opinion that you are FAR better off ambushing from hiding with one mace or maul than any type of edged weapon you can swing or even two at the same time for that matter. Do to the way the crit formula is set up when ambushing you have a much higher chance for death crits with a mace or a maul since they are crush only weapons. Swinging a second weapon automatically defaults to the chest or back I believe, leaving far less chance for a death crit. Not to mention that if you are swinging any type of edged weapon you have far less chance to get that death crit due to damage type. You could make the argument that daggers are better because of the lower RT and you can still get the death crits on the eyes. I just think that eyes are way to hard to hit as consistently as the head unless you are really high level. You can also just pick up 20 ranks of MIU and some haste imbeds and be ambushing just as fast with a mace. If you wanna go with two weapons my preferred route is the haste imbeds with knuckle dusters. The knuckle-dusters have much lower AVD but with some air lore training you can get your RT down to 1 second with a crush only weapon and its pretty damn sweet as long as your not fighting something wearing plate.

[Wheelerm]

Its my opinion that you are FAR better off ambushing from hiding with one mace or maul than any type of edged weapon you can swing or even two at the same time for that matter. Do to the way the crit formula is set up when ambushing you have a much higher chance for death crits with a mace or a maul since they are crush only weapons. Swinging a second weapon automatically defaults to the chest or back I believe, leaving far less chance for a death crit. Not to mention that if you are swinging any type of edged weapon you have far less chance to get that death crit due to damage type. You could make the argument that daggers are better because of the lower RT and you can still get the death crits on the eyes. I just think that eyes are way to hard to hit as consistently as the head unless you are really high level. You can also just pick up 20 ranks of MIU and some haste imbeds and be ambushing just as fast with a mace. If you wanna go with two weapons my preferred route is the haste imbeds with knuckle dusters. The knuckle-dusters have much lower AVD but with some air lore training you can get your RT down to 1 second with a crush only weapon and its pretty damn sweet as long as your not fighting something wearing plate.

I've been doing the TWC edged thing since I got my fixskills, and have been ambushing heads. What you state seems to line up with what I have observed with respect to crits. While I do get a great deal of instant deaths, I do miss out on a great deal of them as well. At only sixteen trains, I'm sure my ambushing is not the greatest in the world right now. Last night while hunting, I ambushed the head of an Agresh Troll Chieftain, and managed to amputate his right hand and left leg instead. In all fairness, though, if I do get a head shot while ambushing, and it kills, the second swing isn't used anyhow. If I connect with the head with the first shot, but don't get a kill, the second one usually finishes the creature off. I'm not disappointed with the two edged weapon style, but I really think that when I get my next fixskills, I will probably migrate toward a blunt/board style, or ranged style. By then, I should have plenty of cman ranks in smastery and shadow strike.

[DrZaius]

I've been doing the TWC edged thing since I got my fixskills, and have been ambushing heads. What you state seems to line up with what I have observed with respect to crits. While I do get a great deal of instant deaths, I do miss out on a great deal of them as well. At only sixteen trains, I'm sure my ambushing is not the greatest in the world right now. Last night while hunting, I ambushed the head of an Agresh Troll Chieftain, and managed to amputate his right hand and left leg instead. In all fairness, though, if I do get a head shot while ambushing, and it kills, the second swing isn't used anyhow. If I connect with the head with the first shot, but don't get a kill, the second one usually finishes the creature off. I'm not disappointed with the two edged weapon style, but I really think that when I get my next fixskills, I will probably migrate toward a blunt/board style, or ranged style. By then, I should have plenty of cman ranks in smastery and shadow strike.

Speaking from experience (and other people can chime in here if they disagree), I'd avoid archery unless you have a compelling RP reason to do so. It may be mechanically advantageous, but it is a huge PITA logistically speaking. I'm currently doing an open archer mode on my rogue, and I can choose between losing money on each hunt (by fletching and then losing to the environs faewood arrows), or deal with getting a bundle blessed/e-bladed and dealing with the "is this one still blessed? how many charges do I have left? Do I need more charges? Why won't they bundle?" fun. YMMV.

-DrZ

[BigPun]

I've been doing the TWC edged thing since I got my fixskills, and have been ambushing heads. What you state seems to line up with what I have observed with respect to crits. While I do get a great deal of instant deaths, I do miss out on a great deal of them as well. At only sixteen trains, I'm sure my ambushing is not the greatest in the world right now. Last night while hunting, I ambushed the head of an Agresh Troll Chieftain, and managed to amputate his right hand and left leg instead. In all fairness, though, if I do get a head shot while ambushing, and it kills, the second swing isn't used anyhow. If I connect with the head with the first shot, but don't get a kill, the second one usually finishes the creature off. I'm not disappointed with the two edged weapon style, but I really think that when I get my next fixskills, I will probably migrate toward a blunt/board style, or ranged style. By then, I should have plenty of cman ranks in smastery and shadow strike.

At only 16 trains you don't really have enough ambushing to hit your target as often as you like. It doesn't say what type of weapons you are using here but if its something that does puncture damage like a dagger you would be better off aiming for the eye. If it does any type of crushing damage its better to stick with the head. You will have the same problem with a mace until around level 40 or so for several reasons. First you still won't always hit your target until you have sufficient ambushing skill. Most importantly though your AVD probably wont be high enough until then to get level 5-9 crits every time. When crushing the head with a mace or maul you cannot get lower than a level 5 crit once your AVD is high enough. Level 5 is all you need for instant death as long as you hit your target.

Maces are the most undervalued weapon in the game.

[DaCapn]

When crushing the head with a mace or maul you cannot get lower than a level 5 crit once your AVD is high enough. Level 5 is all you need for instant death as long as you hit your target.

Of course, this really means that you need a rank 9 critical to ensure 100% crit-kills. Rank 5 criticals are insta-death for crush to head/neck. Critical randomization will cause a rank 9 critical to be 5-9. If your calculated critical rank from the attack is level 5, it can randomize down to a 3 and not be a kill.

I can't tell if that's clear to you but it probably wouldn't be clear to someone unfamiliar with the mechanics of criticals.

[Gibreficul]

I stopped reading after... probably the 2nd post... all I saw was people posting builds...


Armor Use..........................| 240 140
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Combat Maneuvers...................| 302 202
Edged Weapons......................| 302 202
Thrown Weapons.....................| 302 202
Ambush.............................| 302 202
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 25 5
Physical Fitness...................| 262 162
Dodging............................| 403 303
Arcane Symbols.....................| 128 34
Magic Item Use.....................| 122 31
Harness Power......................| 132 36
Elemental Mana Control.............| 90 20
Spirit Mana Control................| 90 20
Disarming Traps....................| 403 303
Picking Locks......................| 403 303
Stalking and Hiding................| 302 202
Perception.........................| 302 202
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 160 60
Trading............................| 10 2
Pickpocketing......................| 201 101

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 25
Training Points: 0 Phy 10 Mnt (10 Mnt converted to Phy)

I prefer to ambush eyes with daggers and necks and heads with handaxes and think that people who always say "Go with a claidh for 30 days" are retarded, especially when they suggest it for a rogue.

(No disrespect meant to any special needs people who may have felt unjustly compared to the above mentioned retards.)

[Asha]

I prefer to ambush eyes with daggers and necks and heads with handaxes and think that people who always say "Go with a claidh for 30 days" are retarded, especially when they suggest it for a rogue.


How is telling someone to go with a claid for the first 30 days retarded when it's a perfectly well known technique to batter your way through really early levels for all professions.
Retarded is giving someone a list of capped skills when the OP just wanted help rolling a rogue.

[audioserf]

Ambushing eyes with daggers at level 11 isn't terribly effective or a lot of fun. The reason people recommend a claidh for the first 30 days is that it's the quickest way to level easily. The low levels of Gemstone are horrible because your character's not skilled enough to -do- anything profession-specific yet, so grinding it out quickly, brainlessly and easily with a claidh is the way to go.

[Gibreficul]

How is telling someone to go with a claid for the first 30 days retarded when it's a perfectly well known technique to batter your way through really early levels for all professions.
Retarded is giving someone a list of capped skills when the OP just wanted help rolling a rogue.

Just because it's a known technique doesn't make it the right one, or the best one. ALL professions can go sword/board. ALL professions can go with an archery build. It's been done, it's perfectly well known. Fact is, if you actually read the original post... they want to be a rogue, pick boxes and stuff. They already did a warrior, and probably did the claidh route. For a rogue, THW costs a shitton. I understand instant TP migration in the first 30 days.... so "it's a non factor" arguements, just shove them up your ass. The BEST way for a rogue to pick boxes and hunt at or a little over their level is to go with a sword/board ambushing build, or an archer build. THAT IS PERFECTLY WELL KNOWN. So, yes, I stand true to the statement that suggesting a claidh to a rogue for 30 days is retarded. If they're trying something new, they should be trying different variations of what they plan to be after those 30 days to find the right fit, not going with some generic open swinging build "because that's what someone told me to do for 30 days."

[Asha]

How is telling someone to go with a claid for the first 30 days retarded

.

[Gibreficul]

They want to be a locksmith rogue, not a warrior you illiterate fool!

[Asha]

http://img.perthstreetbikes.com/img/6/3/4/implied-facepalm.jpg