Bastard

[JamusPsi]

>chat Hey Bob, if you're listening, I just love your AIM profile.
You focus on transmitting your thought.
>admin ban Bobmuhthol
You command the PsiNet to ban Bobmuhthol from the PsiNet.

The character account Accts\Bobmuhthol.act was banned.
>admin ban Vlecles
You command the PsiNet to ban Vlecles from the PsiNet.

The character account Accts\Vlecles.act was banned.
>admin ban Warcliadhm
You command the PsiNet to ban Warcliadhm from the PsiNet.

The character account Accts\Warcliadhm.act was banned.
>admin ban Shay
You command the PsiNet to ban Shay from the PsiNet.

The character account Accts\Shay.act was banned.
* Gnosis just bit the dust!
>

[Chadj]

well, i must say.. TOTAL PWNAGE

[Fengus]

Thats prolly just some lyrics. Bit of an overstep in my opinion, what does AIM profiles have to do with psinet?

[Chadj]

Originally posted by Fengus
Thats prolly just some lyrics. Bit of an overstep in my opinion, what does AIM profiles have to do with psinet?

Jamus pwned him. It was funny. Do not argue. kthx.

[Scott]

I agree. Perhaps if that would have been said on PSInet, I could understand. However I don't see how his AIM profile should get him banned from PSInet.

[Drew2]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
I agree. Perhaps if that would have been said on PSInet, I could understand. However I don't see how his AIM profile should get him banned from PSInet.

I don't either. But I already told that to Brian.

[Chadj]

it can happen because of this: Jamus owns Psinet. Jamus can do what he wants.

[JamusPsi]

Because every time I saw him on PsiNet, I'd be reminded that he was enjoying something a "fucking faggot" created.

I am generally liberal with my policy. I get LOTS of complaints about PsiNet being TOO vulgar and offensive- never complaints that I'm overly restrictive.

Frankly, it got him banned because nobody has an inherent RIGHT to use PsiNet- it's something I provide out of kindness and a desire to do something good for the gemstone community.

Comments (or quotes, as I suspect it may be) like that are poison to society, and deeply hurtful. Whether it's his AIM screen name or Psinet account- it's the same malevolence behind it.

Jamus
Brian

[Scott]

I understand PSInet belongs to you and everything but come on. You're letting your personal opinion get in the way of something. I understand that might offend you and everything, but this is a little extreme for his AIM profile. It's your design and you run it so obviously you can do what you want, but this is pretty disgusting on YOUR behalf.

[Scott]

Originally posted by JamusPsi
Because every time I saw him on PsiNet, I'd be reminded that he was enjoying something a "fucking faggot" created.

I am generally liberal with my policy. I get LOTS of complaints about PsiNet being TOO vulgar and offensive- never complaints that I'm overly restrictive.

Frankly, it got him banned because nobody has an inherent RIGHT to use PsiNet- it's something I provide out of kindness and a desire to do something good for the gemstone community.

Comments (or quotes, as I suspect it may be) like that are poison to society, and deeply hurtful. Whether it's his AIM screen name or Psinet account- it's the same malevolence behind it.

Jamus
Brian

So if someone offends me, you are going to ban them? Or does that apply to people who offend YOU. Perhaps you may not like Bob's view (if he even has one) and neither do I, however I find a lot of other things said on PSInet to be more offensive then that (well nothing really offends me, but it's more offensive then that), but nothing is done. I find that Jenovedeath did something more disrespectful then Bob has EVER done, but nothing was done.... and he's a mod.

[JamusPsi]

Frankly, I wouldn't tolerate the same for any group of people. Sociopathic violence is sociopathic violence. And the point transcends anybody's personal opinion. Everyone has the right to hate- but keep it to yourself. Advocating, praising, glorifying, whatevering hate crimes is another thing. It's wrong.

As for my personal opinion? Sure. Hearing in your circle of friends that Mike and Bob got the shit beat out of them last weekend because someone saw them leaving a club on 4th street? Remembering every time you go out to make sure you're not to obvious, and to look out for the guys with baseball bats? Maybe that makes this a raw nerve for me.

I'm human. Comments like his come from monsters.

Brian

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
You're letting your personal opinion get in the way of something.

He's under no obligation to not let his personal opinion get in the way. In fact, it was his personal opinion to do something nice and helpful for the people who played GS. And now he's chosen to remove that ability from someone who offended him.

He has that right and personally, I agree with it. He doesn't need to allow 'free speech' or tolerate people whose opinion he strongly disagrees with. Nor does he need to be "fair" to anyone or use any standards of what is allowable but those he approves of.

Further, it's about time Bob learned that there are consequences to his actions. People will react to his beliefs when he advertises them. And if he's just rebelling and being 13, that has consequences too. It's a good lesson to learn about being offensive.

Raven

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[Skirmisher]

Perhaps Bob could remove the item and apologize.

I guess it comes down ot the fact that Jamus owes nothing to anyone and no one is making anyone use the program.

Till people actually start paying for his labor i dont think anyone has the "right" to request a darn thing.

[Edaarin]

Sorry Jamus, I have to agree with Sintik on this one. I've seen considerable vulgarity on PsiNet, and I don't mean just language. During the day and a half or so that I had it installed, I heard quite possibly the crudest, most unrefined comments outside of the movie The Exorcist. There were quite a few comments that I would consider almost equally damaging to society as the lyrics in Bob's profile (such as demeaning someone based on their poverty or lack of education), as well as a number of homosexual insults.

You were very helpful in helping me sort out a problem I had with one of your moderators, and I really appreciated it. I however came to the conclusion that having it installed and listening to the pure drivel on the OOC channels didn't do much for me. I think that PsiNet is a wonderful conception, and the hours of work you put in are surely appreciated by hundreds of users. But...I also think that if you're going to enforce a policy of not tolerating intolerance and crudeness, it should be done uniformly.

EDIT: If it was the violence part that moved you to ban Bob...then I guess the above is sort of void. :whistle: Still, some of the insults that are flung around (not only by users, but certain moderators as well) seemed uncalled for.

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Edaarin]

[JamusPsi]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Perhaps Bob could remove the item and apologize.

He's more than welcome to- had I wanted permanency, there's always:

>admin
Usage: ADMIN SETBUILD build
ADMIN ADDMOD Character ChannelName
ADMIN REMOVEMOD Character ChannelName
ADMIN BAN Character
ADMIN FORCEUNINSTALL Character
ADMIN UNBAN Character
ADMIN SHUTDOWN

[Scott]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Gemstone101
You're letting your personal opinion get in the way of something.

He's under no obligation to not let his personal opinion get in the way. In fact, it was his personal opinion to do something nice and helpful for the people who played GS. And now he's chosen to remove that ability from someone who offended him.

He has that right and personally, I agree with it. He doesn't need to allow 'free speech' or tolerate people whose opinion he strongly disagrees with. Nor does he need to be "fair" to anyone or use any standards of what is allowable but those he approves of.

Further, it's about time Bob learned that there are consequences to his actions. People will react to his beliefs when he advertises them. And if he's just rebelling and being 13, that has consequences too. It's a good lesson to learn about being offensive.

Raven

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Ravenstorm]

Obviously you don't listen to PSInet, because that isn't near the most vulgar thing I've ever heard.

But again, I already stated he can do what he wishes, but I see you chose to skip over that like always so..... I won't bother any further.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Obviously you don't listen to PSInet, because that isn't near the most vulgar thing I've ever heard.

I don't play Gemstone at all so no, I don't listen to PSInet. But as has been pointed out, there's a huge difference between vulgarity and advocating beating someone with a crowbar.

Raven

[Farquar]

Notwithstanding the violence in the profile, people are implying some sort of parity where none exists: what's said over PSI and what's placed in one's AIM profile. Most of the stuff said on PSI is said to get a laugh or break a lull in gemstone. Stuff people put in their AIM profiles they either tend to believe in or at the very least, think is cool/interesting.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Obviously you don't listen to PSInet, because that isn't near the most vulgar thing I've ever heard.

I don't play Gemstone at all so no, I don't listen to PSInet. But as has been pointed out, there's a huge difference between vulgarity and advocating beating someone with a crowbar.

Raven

"Killing someone with a gun" or threatening to "gut someone" is OK though, as long as it isn't "kill a faggot with a gun" or "gut a faggot." Again, this isn't near on the level of some of the other things I've heard.

[Varsus]

Jamus (Brian)

I just think your better than this.

Yes you did create something great, and you do control it, but people do have different oppinions (some way off) and I find I just let people think what they want, and move on.

I hope you know I respect you alot, so don't take this post the wrong way.

-Varsus (hes 16? cut em a brake)

[Farquar]

Originally posted by Varsus
Jamus (Brian)

I just think your better than this.

Yes you did create something great, and you do control it, but people do have different oppinions (some way off) and I find I just let people think what they want, and move on.

I hope you know I respect you alot, so don't take this post the wrong way.

-Varsus (hes 16? cut em a brake)

Something I've learned during my studies of 1st amendment jurispridence is that the problem is not that people have words to say, it's that they don't take responsibility for those words when they say them. That's why free speech isn't neccessarily free. The way I see it, Jamus isn't attacking the kid's right to speak, but forcing him to own up to that right, one way or another.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
"Killing someone with a gun" or threatening to "gut someone" is OK though, as long as it isn't "kill a faggot with a gun" or "gut a faggot." Again, this isn't near on the level of some of the other things I've heard.

'Killing a nigger with a gun' or 'gutting a nigger' would be exactly the same so no, that wouldn't be OK to me either. I wouldn't let such a person in my home and I wouldn't let such a person use a service I'm providing gratis because I'm being nice. Advocating violent bigotry is not acceptable behavior nor is glorifying it. While I'm tolerant of lots of shit, that's my personal line in the sand so I support the action fully.

Raven

[Varsus]

I hope this does not spur a big long debate. That and I hate to bring it up in this topic, because i do not want to have it look like im pointing this at jamus. Also because I doubt I can come back tonight and chat about it more, but Ill try.

BUT

Person 1 hates gay people

Person 2 is gay

OK, person 2 is a "victim" of hate

Now person 2 HATES person 1 for hating person 2, now person 2 is no better than 1, because he has stooped to the "low" of person 1 by hating.

You can cry about hate, and discrimination but the minute you raise a finger against them, your hating/discriminating back.

This does not mean you can't speak out for yourself, but taking auctions agains someone just because of what they think... sounds like discrimination to me.

-Varsus (I hate)

[Scott]

What difference does it make if it's "I'm going to fucking kill you" and "I'm going to fucking kill you faggot. It's the same thing, and "I'm going to fucking you asshole" is pretty common on PSInet. However because Bob had in his AIM PROFILE, "We see some faggots in a afterhouse bar, pull out the crowbar and leave a fucking scar" he's banned, but the other 100 comments that are said on PSINET as threats (and I'm not talking about the jokes of "Kill yourself) are just let slide. Doesn't seem right to me.....

[Farquar]

Originally posted by Gemstone101
What difference does it make if it's "I'm going to fucking kill you" and "I'm going to fucking kill you faggot. It's the same thing

To borrow from most states' hate crime statues, the difference between the two is roughly double the sentence, as well as an aggravating factor in a death penalty proceeding.

[JamusPsi]

Scott, I do tolerate things that are obviously made in jest. There's a difference between:

[OOC]-You: "omg you suck im going to gut you irl"

And:
[OOC]-You: "You fucking shit bag, I know where you live and I'm going to track you down and beat you to death with a bat."

You might want to notice that "faggot" isn't in either example.

Let's face it: PsiNet, and I, catch a lot of flak for being too vulgar, too stupid, too etc. I let the dead baby jokes slide. I encourage debate over abortion, and gay marriage and war and conservatism and liberalism. I let racial jokes which are intended as satire go, because I genuinely believe that they aren't INTENDED to be offensive.

At any given time, I have the people whose sensitivities are injured talking to me on one side, the people who feel justified in being as crude as they can manage on the other side, and me, somewhere in the middle, feeling perpetually unjustified in any exertion of force. It's enough to make you nauseous and I HATE it. Depending on your perspective I'm either supporting lewd and crude behavior, overly liberal, or too heavy-handed.

Advocating violence towards another group is not an opinion- it's a threat, an expression of hatred, and a disease. I feel justified in basing my actions on his AIM profile, therefore; if someone preached ethnic cleansing except for when they were in my presence, I'd hardly find that comforting, but rather patronizing and untruthful.

Where do you draw the lines between free speech, satire, personal sensitivities and sociopathic hatred? I hate this job.

On Bob specifically, Raven channeled my spirit in her post: It's about time Bob learned that there are consequences to his actions. People will react to his beliefs when he advertises them. And if he's just rebelling and being 13, that has consequences too. It's a good lesson to learn about being offensive.

Probably when I calm down, and when he understands what really is a severe issue, I'll unban him. Honestly, I'm pretty likely to unban him even if he didn't, in a few days, as doubt and criticism grows.

On a related note, at least from my perspective: tonight I saw, clearer than ever, the need to do something about PsiNet's reputation and the chat channels. To that end, I have created a Dark channel. Vulgarity, jokes in bad taste, sex, and personal bashing will go there. The OOC channel will be for general conversation and game topics. Each will be moderated separately and this policy will be enforced.

I HATE saying things like "Because I'm the king and I say so." I don't want ANYONE to think that I'm disinterested in what others think, and the last thing I want is for PsiNet to be run as a despotism. I hope that this post helps to clarify my position.

Brian

[Scott]

Originally posted by Farquar

Originally posted by Gemstone101
What difference does it make if it's "I'm going to fucking kill you" and "I'm going to fucking kill you faggot. It's the same thing

To borrow from most states' hate crime statues, the difference between the two is roughly double the sentence, as well as an aggravating factor in a death penalty proceeding.

Which is complete bull shit. If I kill someone, it shouldn't matter whether he's white, black, gay, straight, bi, or hispanic. It's the same damn thing, and it's sad that it's valued any differently. It shouldn't matter what the reason is.

[JamusPsi]

Originally posted by Varsus
Person 1 hates gay people

Person 2 is gay

OK, person 2 is a "victim" of hate

Now person 2 HATES person 1 for hating person 2, now person 2 is no better than 1, because he has stooped to the "low" of person 1 by hating.

You can cry about hate, and discrimination but the minute you raise a finger against them, your hating/discriminating back.

This does not mean you can't speak out for yourself, but taking auctions agains someone just because of what they think... sounds like discrimination to me.

-Varsus (I hate)

Love the sinner, hate the sin. I like Bob a lot, and 9/10 times I'll defend him. What would turning the other cheek accomplish?

[Drew2]

Originally posted by JamusPsi
On a related note, at least from my perspective: tonight I saw, clearer than ever, the need to do something about PsiNet's reputation and the chat channels. To that end, I have created a Dark channel. Vulgarity, jokes in bad taste, sex, and personal bashing will go there. The OOC channel will be for general conversation and game topics. Each will be moderated separately and this policy will be enforced.


Hopefully this will give incentive for those who tried Psinet and said "No way. These people are trash" to come and try again. :yes:

[Varsus]

Well Im still dissapointed.

But It is yours, play with it as you will.

-Varsus

[Farquar]

Originally posted by Gemstone101

Originally posted by Farquar

Originally posted by Gemstone101
What difference does it make if it's "I'm going to fucking kill you" and "I'm going to fucking kill you faggot. It's the same thing

To borrow from most states' hate crime statues, the difference between the two is roughly double the sentence, as well as an aggravating factor in a death penalty proceeding.

Which is complete bull shit. If I kill someone, it shouldn't matter whether he's white, black, gay, straight, bi, or hispanic. It's the same damn thing, and it's sad that it's valued any differently. It shouldn't matter what the reason is.

You're partially correct, you'll receive the same punishment no matter what the race/creed/orientation of your victim. The harsher sentencing only comes into play when race was the primary motivation behind the criminal act.

[Scott]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what Bob said isn't wrong.... However I don't understand the reasoning at all. For one is was on his AIM. I call Edaarin a dumb asian all the time, however what's done in AIM should be remain in AIM, and not brought into something else. Just as anything from these boards, should not be brought into Gemstone. I personally don't have a problem with the vulgar comments or whatever on PSInet, because quite frankly, it's as simple as "UNTUNE OOC." I don't like it (I don't find it offensive, I just find it stupid) but it's a simple thing.


Advocating violence towards another group is not an opinion- it's a threat, an expression of hatred, and a disease. I feel justified in basing my actions on his AIM profile, therefore; if someone preached ethnic cleansing except for when they were in my presence, I'd hardly find that comforting, but rather patronizing and untruthful.

Advocating violence period whether it's a white person against white person, or a white person against a black person. It's just hate/violence in a different way. The jokes are fine, but you know you hear threats of violence on PSInet all the time. Some jokes, some not. I just don't agree with the logic, and that's just a diffence of opinion, I understand that.

Oh, and just for the record, I would have banned Bob too, but it wouldn't have been for this. I would have got rid of him a long time before this, so this wouldn't really have an effect on anything. ;)

[Scott]

Originally posted by Farquar
You're partially correct, you'll receive the same punishment no matter what the race/creed/orientation of your victim. The harsher sentencing only comes into play when race was the primary motivation behind the criminal act.

What about when I kill you because your rich? How about if I kill you because you are ugly, fat, etc. That for some reason doesn't fall in the same category, but why? You're killing someone because they are different then you, it's the same thing but for some reason it doesn't fall under the same category.

In high school, if a jock beats up a geek because "Hey, I'm a jock, he's a geek" he'd probably get suspended or something. However if a white person beats up a black person because "He's white, I'm black" it would be an expulsion. I don't agree with this at all....

I understand we disagree on the issue, and I respect your views, I just don't agree with them.

[BroVod]

Kill whitey

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by BroVod]

[JamusPsi]

Real- and I emphasize real- threats of violence on PsiNet will not be- and have not been, to my knowledge- tolerated. No, I cannot think of any instances wherein a legitimate threat was made on OOC, because I would have canned it there. If you think it's happened and I didn't act, there's two possible reasons: either I wasn't listening at the time, which is very possible, or I interpreted it differently, and didn't think it was a true threat. Some context comes into play.

Ah, but the other issue.. I often laugh at people who post things blasting other people or chat on OOC blasting other people and then whine and cry about how they got imploded in-game. Sure, it's not in-character, and it's VERY bad style. But it's foollish and childish to hide behind the medium as though it gives you the right to say whatever it is you want.

As an example: if someone I were friends with bought air time on public access cable so that they could preach ethnic cleansing- or recite what Bob had in his profile- I would not be friends with them anymore. Moreover, I would not invite them to my parties. Sure, he never said it to me, and sure, he never said it at my parties. But if I know what kind of person he is outside of my parties.. he's not the kind of person I want to party with.

The medium may not be constant: Television and party, or AIM and PsiNet- but the person behind it is. You shouldn't expect to be held faultless as long as you're oh-so-careful about where you say it. You still said it.

Jamus, Brian

[JamusPsi]

Originally posted by Omens
You cant expect him to own up to the responsablility of having a statement like that in your profile, when at the same time, your not taking the responsability of your choice to open his profile and look at it. If he sent that to you in a Im. or something then I could say I agree with your choice to ban him. But i think your being as childish as he is.


Heh, I'm not going to take the blame for viewing his profile that he put up there for everyone to see.

It's not like I was poking around looking for something to get pissed off for.

But sure! I take responsibility for viewing his profile and subjecting myself to being exposed to the comment.

[Farquar]

Originally posted by Gemstone101

Originally posted by Farquar
You're partially correct, you'll receive the same punishment no matter what the race/creed/orientation of your victim. The harsher sentencing only comes into play when race was the primary motivation behind the criminal act.

What about when I kill you because your rich? How about if I kill you because you are ugly, fat, etc. That for some reason doesn't fall in the same category, but why? You're killing someone because they are different then you, it's the same thing but for some reason it doesn't fall under the same category.

In high school, if a jock beats up a geek because "Hey, I'm a jock, he's a geek" he'd probably get suspended or something. However if a white person beats up a black person because "He's white, I'm black" it would be an expulsion. I don't agree with this at all....

I understand we disagree on the issue, and I respect your views, I just don't agree with them.

The disparity in treatment is a societal statement. Its the only way we can express societal disdain for crimes based on race/creed/orientation where it would also have a significant deterrent effect. Crimes based on race/creed/orientation are so inherently baseless and trivial, that society believes, rightly or wrongly, that a much harsher punishment would probably prevent all of these crimes from happening in the first place.

[BroVod]

In all seriusness...unlike my previus post...I totaly agree with what you say about hiding behind the medium....Its basicaly like talking shit behind someone's elses back i suppose. Tell one person they're cool, and the second they leave tell the other person they're you can't stand them, but don't tell that person I told you!!!

I dunno, people who honestly can say and mean(well not even mean it, just say it)bother me. I mean i am guilty of making jokes about races, sex, creed, and sexual orientation, but I try to limit it, because it really doesn't do a lick of good to repeat the jokes...it actually makes the stereotypes and hate be easier to be done...atleast thats what i think....Ever since all this race stuff had poppped up on the boards here with me saying kill whitey on psinet that one day, and listening to bob talk here and on psinet, and his buddies...all that went through my head, was that scene from Amereican History X....when Ed Norton's character goes to the main guys party to tell him he's out and so is his brother...when he tries to leave, all the little skin heads try to jump him and the one big guy pulls a gun him...thats how i picutered bob and his friends. I dunno why i'm saying anything this, I guess i'm bored and rambling...now that i think abuot it...I dunno if this really pertains to this thread, heh

zim

Dude. psinet is all and its obvious you put alot of work in it, but thats bullshit. I may be wrong but i honestly believe that half the shit bob says that is racist or faggoist (or whatever it is you call it) is said in jest to get a rise out of somebody. Hell, Bob has imed me to help me out more then a couple times..and i'm obviously black

<------

I think you just need to chill, and you should have tried to clarify whether or not it was a factual statement. If so, then do what the fuck you want, hell you'll do what you want anyway. but w tf \e In any case. I'm drunk as fuck so fuck you all. queers.

[JamusPsi]

I agree that most of what he says isn't really to be taken seriously, but he should probably expect a reaction when he was trying to get one in the first place.

That said, he's already been unbanned pending a conversation with him, which, in retrospect.. I should have done in the first place.

Brian

well squared away then. Maybe you aren't so gay afterall.. Well maybe not, but w\e good job.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I've never used PSInet before, but I think it should be pretty obvious that Jamus can do whatever the hell he wants to concerning it.

what is this psinet

[Tsa`ah]

Say I'm throwing a party at my parent's farm house, typically 50-100 people show up, and a couple of people are circling the crowd dropping racist remarks and bashing homosexuals.

It's my party right? I'm throwing fuck stains in the drainage ditch at the end of lane.

The people at the party may not agree with it, they may complain about it, but in the end it's my call, my party, and for all intents and purposes, my property. You, as an attendee of the party, can bitch all you want about how unfair it is, but in the end you have two choices.

1. STFU and enjoy the party.
2. Console the fuck stains in the ditch.

The same would be applied if I knew some dumb asses were taking part in a KKK or skin-head rally. They show up, they get escorted out with the utmost expedience.

Bob wants to parade and posture on the skin-head ideology. He wants to put Hess up as a hero and pin up anti-gay, anti-non-white in his profiles. Guess what; those types of actions have consequences.

Jamus didn't do anything wrong. If Bob thinks it's cool to attack Brian's sexuality, then Bob needs to accept that Brian doesn't want him using the service he provides.

[HarmNone]

The "Dark Channel" you speak of is probably the best idea, Jamus. It seems there are some people who just NEED to hate. Not only that, but they seem to need to share that hate with everybody, even those of us who really don't want to hear it.

You did what was right for you at the time. You provide a tool, free of charge, to those who play GemStoneIV. It's a great tool, apparently, and offers a lot of options to the people who use it. How that tool is used, and by whom, is YOUR choice. You owe no explanation to anyone for why you might choose that any given person NOT have access to it. Personally, I think it was pretty nice of you to remove the ban.

Good luck, hon. Believe me, I feel your pain.

HarmNone, a bit disgusted at the moment

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Not only that, but they seem to need to share that hate with everybody, even those of us who really don't want to hear it.>>

Don't listen?

[Bobmuhthol]

[Script]>peek ooc
You request a list of the people on the channel ooc.

You sense that the following people are tuned to the OOC channel:
Sozz Skeed Nhomad Veredox
Thorns Katya Dandril Jestine
Wexler Taroath Kelestra Pethrillia
Joness Whispersdeath Emislity Culghuun
Exuent Aiya Penina Shay
Omens Izabela Xenosphere

peek dark
You request a list of the people on the channel dark.

You sense that the following people are tuned to the Dark channel:
Skeed Joness Katya Shay

[Myshel]

Old, Young,Black, White, Gay, Asian, Hispanic, Indian, Jews, Skinheads,and a few others are all well represented here on the boards. Its my hope that Bob, nope not just Bob, but all of us are learning tolerance though the posts and discussions we have here. We have names and feelings to put to put to the gay person or the jew, we think we may hate. Hate is taught, so hopefully though our life experiences and honest answers we can sway the stereotypes of what a "black or jew or gay" is.

Sure its easy to say hate all gays, but after reading some of the posts on Raven's Q&A thread, doesn't it foster understanding? Or any of the threads that we have discussed here from Nazi's to our immigrant parents. Thats what I'm hoping for Bob, who I like very much, he is a bright kid and even if he likes to shock, he is reading and learning.

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Varsus
I hope this does not spur a big long debate. That and I hate to bring it up in this topic, because i do not want to have it look like im pointing this at jamus. Also because I doubt I can come back tonight and chat about it more, but Ill try.

BUT

Person 1 hates gay people

Person 2 is gay

OK, person 2 is a "victim" of hate

Now person 2 HATES person 1 for hating person 2, now person 2 is no better than 1, because he has stooped to the "low" of person 1 by hating.

You can cry about hate, and discrimination but the minute you raise a finger against them, your hating/discriminating back.

This does not mean you can't speak out for yourself, but taking auctions agains someone just because of what they think... sounds like discrimination to me.

-Varsus (I hate)

I don't think its as simple as this. First off...

dis·crim·i·na·tion Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice

I have been discriminated against for being an asian, or in the terms someone used, "damn foreigner" and my personal favorite, "being brown". Do I hate them? No. I feel sorry for them and their closed minded ignorant mentality. However, if these same people insighted violence and worse yet took part in violence against someone else because that person felt they were black, brown, gay, whatever, then yes my feelings tend to go towards hating them.

I wouldn't be discriminating against them because they thought differently, I would be hateful for the fact that they used violence against someone who's sole crime was to be different from what person 1 thinks is normal.

To say I am discriminating against person 1 for that reason, I think is wrong. It's totally on a diffferent level. And as the definition says. PErson 1 hates person 2 because of class or category (being gay) Person 2 hates person 1 due to prejudice.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Personally, whatever decision Jamus makes, I back 100%. He built PsiNet, it's his, his resources, his time.

Like Tsa`ah said, you don't like it, leave. You don't like his admin, leave. I'm glad he worked it out with Bob, but lets face it, don't come into my house, shit on my kitchen table, and ask whats for dinner.

Respect me, I respect you. Disrespect me, expect to leave. It's his to say who can and cannot use it.

[DeV]

:clap:

[Weedmage Princess]

I agree with Jamus, too. Good call. Life lesson here. You can't just do/say whatever you want and expect little to no repurcussions for it. Yes, there's freedom of speech and you can "say" whatever you want. But just like Bob has the freedom to say what he said, Jamus has the freedom to retaliate, as long as it's not at the cost of anyone else's right, or in violation of the law.

Here's a metaphor for you. The whole Augusta thing. It's a privately owned club. If the owner decides he doesn't want women to join his club, guess what? THAT IS HIS RIGHT. Same with Jamus. PsiNet is his. If he doesn't want homosexual, racial or other certain types of bashing on PsiNet--that's HIS right. And I applaud his decision. I get sick of hearing how we have to allow people to say whatever they want no matter how hurtful, derogatory and messed up it might be...then jump up and scream foul when someone takes offense and retaliates within their right to do so.

:thumbsup: Jamus.

I also want to say it was cool that he did allow him back. But atleast now people will think twice before saying certain things.

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Weedmage Princess]

[Bobmuhthol]

<<If he doesn't want homosexual, racial or other certain types of bashing on PsiNet--that's HIS right.>>

It didn't happen on PsiNet.

<<Yes, there's freedom of speech and you can "say" whatever you want. But just like Bob has the freedom to say what he said, Jamus has the freedom to retaliate, as long as it's not at the cost of anyone else's right, or in violation of the law.>>

I never said I had freedom of speech. In fact, I never defended my position or statements.

[Tendarian]

If he doesn't want homosexual, racial or other certain types of bashing on PsiNet--that's HIS right.

I think whats being argued is that it wasnt said on Psinet,but on AIM. Imagine how many topics would spawn if Kranar banned someone on here for saying something on a different forum. Even with that though i think Jamus had the right to do whatever he felt was needed. Since he eventually let Bob back in anyway its not really a big issue anymore.

[GSLeloo]

Stopping at page one cause it seems rather repetitive...

If I spent my time and created a free program out of generosity and let others use it, I would have a lot room to do what I want with it. (Let's look at... SR)

I've never been in that situation but if someone offended something that mattered very deeply to me then I would probably ban them because I didn't create something to be insulted from it.

[imported_Kranar]

<< Imagine how many topics would spawn if Kranar banned someone on here for saying something on a different forum. >>

That's because I established such a rule preventing me from doing that. Jamus is under no obligation to do the same. He worked incredibly hard to make PsiNet and I think he has every right to ban whoever the heck he wants for whatever reason he feels like.

He doesn't charge anyone to use his service, and his service is by no means a right. If Jamus doesn't like someone, I don't see why he would be wrong to ban them from HIS network.

I think it just comes to show that PsiNet isn't something to take for granted. Jamus doesn't owe it to anyone to keep them on his network.

[Weedmage Princess]

Ahh. I just re-read that, you're right Tendarian, my bad.

Well, it doesn't take away from the premise of my argument. With freedom comes responsibility. Sure, say whatever the hell you want. Don't get upset when it comes time to own up for what you said, too.

I can take a ride to Logan Airport and say something along the lines of "I think bombs on airplanes are cool!!!" I have the right to say that. However, when I find myself thrown to the ground and getting cuffed (and possibly beat up) ...well, who can I blame at the end of the day?

[GSLeloo]

Kranar decided to allow the posters to have as much right as he does. He didn't have to. Kranar and Klaive (sorry for the comparison) both hold the same position and it's obvious they both have different views about the rights of others. Neither have to really do anything they don't want to. Same with Jamus.

[Tendarian]

Even with that though i think Jamus had the right to do whatever he felt was needed.

This was the very next sentence. But i would like to also point out that you made that rule(the one preventing you from doing so) for a reason yes?

[Wezas]

I've read this entire thread and have a few comments (yeah, I know you don't care). Bob, I'm hoping that most of your racist comments in your sig and what was in your AIM profile was in jest and trying to get a rise out of people. Jamus, I feel you did what was necessary. I do think that a chat with bob would have helped fix the situation right away, but what you did sent a message that everyone can understand. It is your tool, and you can ban everyone except your closest friends if you wanted. People need to deal with it.


Originally posted by Gemstone101
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what Bob said isn't wrong.... However I don't understand the reasoning at all. For one is was on his AIM. I call Edaarin a dumb asian all the time, however what's done in AIM should be remain in AIM, and not brought into something else.

Ok, this has to be one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Asian <> Faggot. Now, if you were to call Edaarin a dumb chink (or other asian racial slur) that might be along the same line. But still, I don't hear about too many "asian bashers", so I'm not sure if it's even comparable.

[TheEschaton]

But still, I don't hear about too many "asian bashers", so I'm not sure if it's even comparable.


But that's because everyone knows us Asians are genetically superior to all of you. ;)

/sarcasm.

-TheE-

[Tisket]

Originally posted by Tendarian
[quote]i think Jamus had the right to do whatever he felt was needed. Since he eventually let Bob back in anyway its not really a big issue anymore.

Face it, if Jamus didn't have the ability to ban then Bobmuhthol would never have changed his profile. Criticism flows off his back like water.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Wezas

Originally posted by Gemstone101
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying that what Bob said isn't wrong.... However I don't understand the reasoning at all. For one is was on his AIM. I call Edaarin a dumb asian all the time, however what's done in AIM should be remain in AIM, and not brought into something else.

Ok, this has to be one of the most retarded things I've ever read. Asian <> Faggot. Now, if you were to call Edaarin a dumb chink (or other asian racial slur) that might be along the same line. But still, I don't hear about too many "asian bashers", so I'm not sure if it's even comparable.

You missed the complete point of the post, it has nothing to do with what I call Edaarin, or Snapp, or whoever else I talk to. It's the fact that what I say on AIM should remain on AIM. I never implied that dumb asian and faggot have the same tone. You're pulling an Edine and reading one sentence out of the post, however failing to read the rest of it.

Not once did I say they were the same thing. All I stated was what is said on AIM, should stay on AIM. What is said on these boards, should remain on these boards and not be taken into GS.

[Wezas]

Sorry I misread your post, took it out of context. Also, the following is the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me.


Originally posted by Gemstone101
You're pulling an Edine and reading one sentence out of the post, however failing to read the rest of it.

[Skirmisher]

You're wrong.

We are not talking about IC and OOC.

We are talking about real life opinions and dealing with the consequences of your actions. It seems a compromise has been reached and Bob does not seem to be complaining.

So nothing more to see here. Move along.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
So nothing more to see here. Move along.

Well, there IS one thing more...

I'm not a 'her'. I'm a 'he'. Skirmisher is the 'her'.

Raven

[imported_Kranar]

<< All I stated was what is said on AIM, should stay on AIM. What is said on these boards, should remain on these boards and not be taken into GS. >>

I don't see how this makes sense.

You're always responsible for what you say, regardless of where you say it. Using your logic, we can be best friends on MSN, but worst enemies on AIM.

The only reason Gemstone is an exception is because what is said in Gemstone is roleplayed, it's not attributed to you as a person, but instead to a fictional character. But on a message board, or on AIM, MSN, e-mail, the phone, or in real life, whatever you say you're accountable for regardless of the medium.

It's just schizophrenic otherwise to tell yourself "Well he called me a retard on MSN, but now I'm talking to him on AIM, so I have to pretend like he never said anything bad to me on MSN."

Nah... if someone disrespects you in one medium, then that individual has disrespected you in every medium period.

[HarmNone]

That is, to me, a crucial point, Kranar. What *characters* do/say in a *game* is one thing. What the *players* of those characters do/say, in any medium, is quite another. The first is representative of an imaginary character who casts spells and kills orcs. The second represents a real person in the real world.


As real people we are capable of doing lasting harm to others with our actions, and our comments. Perhaps, to some, that is not important. Maybe some people just do not care. To each his/her own, I suppose. Yet, those who choose a path of hatefulness must be ready to deal with the repercussions, if (and when) the time comes. They will find, eventually, that it is not always possible to finesse, or whine, their way out of those repercussions.

HarmNone

[Scott]

<<<You're always responsible for what you say, regardless of where you say it. Using your logic, we can be best friends on MSN, but worst enemies on AIM. >>>

That's not near the same. I'm not talking about friends here. If people can use your program without breaking the rules, I don't see the problem. It's like if a guy uses his car for street racing, does that mean that you should not let him drive your car because of what he does in his own carr? Or if some guy smokes weed in his own house, does that mean that you shouldn't let him in your house even though he won't smoke weed in your house? (I understand some people wouldn't let someone in their house who uses weed, but I hope I'm getting my point across.) As long as when they are using your program/property properly and not abusing it, then there shouldn't be a problem.

I understand Jamus has every right to ban someone from using his program. However I just don't agree with it. I spoke with him last night on AIM, he gave me his reasons and I respect that, I just don't agree with it. I could be the biggest racist in the world, but as long as I don't direct comments to people on these boards, then why would I not be able to use PC? Just because you don't agree with someone, doesn't mean they are wrong. You may view racisism, sexism, etc. in a different way then someone else. However as long as you abide by the rules of PsiNet, PC, Gemstone, AIM, or whatever, your outside views should not effect the use of something. THAT IS JUST MY OPINION. I personally don't agree with racism, however if a skinhead wants to come into my house, I have no problems as long as he respects MY rules in MY house. What he does when he isn't around me is his buisness and his buisness alone. I understand many people don't agree with my logic, but that's my opinion and that's why I feel this was a little overboard, especially without speaking to Bob first.

[Varsus]

Originally posted by Hanksbane

Originally posted by Varsus
I hope this does not spur a big long debate. That and I hate to bring it up in this topic, because i do not want to have it look like im pointing this at jamus. Also because I doubt I can come back tonight and chat about it more, but Ill try.

BUT

Person 1 hates gay people

Person 2 is gay

OK, person 2 is a "victim" of hate

Now person 2 HATES person 1 for hating person 2, now person 2 is no better than 1, because he has stooped to the "low" of person 1 by hating.

You can cry about hate, and discrimination but the minute you raise a finger against them, your hating/discriminating back.

This does not mean you can't speak out for yourself, but taking auctions agains someone just because of what they think... sounds like discrimination to me.

-Varsus (I hate)

I don't think its as simple as this. First off...

dis·crim·i·na·tion Treatment or consideration based on class or category rather than individual merit; partiality or prejudice

I have been discriminated against for being an asian, or in the terms someone used, "damn foreigner" and my personal favorite, "being brown". Do I hate them? No. I feel sorry for them and their closed minded ignorant mentality. However, if these same people insighted violence and worse yet took part in violence against someone else because that person felt they were black, brown, gay, whatever, then yes my feelings tend to go towards hating them.

I wouldn't be discriminating against them because they thought differently, I would be hateful for the fact that they used violence against someone who's sole crime was to be different from what person 1 thinks is normal.

To say I am discriminating against person 1 for that reason, I think is wrong. It's totally on a diffferent level. And as the definition says. PErson 1 hates person 2 because of class or category (being gay) Person 2 hates person 1 due to prejudice.

I have no problem with you hating someone because they don't like you. But when you take auctions to single that person out because of what they think, that I do have a problem with.
-Varsus

[Jolena]

I'd just like to reiterate what so many others have said regarding Jamus' right to do as he wishes with PSINET. And although I also have to agree that there are many vulgar, violent, sadistic things said on the OOC channel that I personally have heard, I am rather happy and impressed that Jamus created a "Dark channel" for those things. That gives the rest of us a chance to listen in to a program that I happen to enjoy thoroughly, without dealing with the hate, anger and stupidity that seems to run rampant through many of the people using it. As far as being fair..I do think that it was rather cool of Jamus to unban Bob after speaking to him..but I would caution you Jamus to realize that Bob's comment in his profile is not the only time that someone has said something violent or hateful. Although he said it in AIM there have been instances where I personally have heard some rather violent things being said on psinet from others, maybe not directed at homosexuals or a race, but in general. Just remember that in order to be fair, it should be uniform. However, once again, it's your call and your program and I support your right to do with it what you will .

/end rant :grin:

[Scott]

Oh and just to clear it up before someone goes there.....

Would I let a child molester in my house, absolutely not. I'm talking about views, not illegal actions. If someone ACTS on their statements or comments it's a totally different thing. If you aren't doing illegal activities, then you are more then welcome to be around me as long as you respect my wishes not to hear comments such as "faggot, nigger" or whatever. Views and actions are totally different things, I don't want anyone to think that I would let a wife beater in my house.

[Jolena]

Oh but you'd let someone who just speaks of beating his wife and how he supports the beating of wives into your home, as long as he didnt' voice that opinion TO you or DO it. Nice.

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Face it, if Jamus didn't have the ability to ban then Bobmuhthol would never have changed his profile.>>

If nobody said anything about my profile then I would have never changed it.

Those two statements are worlds apart, and I'd like to send you a hearty, virtual FUCK OFF.

[Jolena]

I seriously hope that you are considering your statements versus consequences before you say them Bob. But if you aren't, well then I'm sure one day someone will show you how to. I personally have a HUGE problem with race/sexual/group related violence but only because it hits home in a few ways. Seeing as how my uncle, who was homosexual (yes he's dead), was beaten to within an inch of his life because of some fuckstain who thought that it was right to attack another because of their sexual orientation.

[Scott]

Originally posted by Jolena
Oh but you'd let someone who just speaks of beating his wife and how he supports the beating of wives into your home, as long as he didnt' voice that opinion TO you or DO it. Nice.

That's right. Why should someones OPINION effect me? It's his opinion, he has a right to his opinion, no matter how stupid you are I may think it is. I have a right to disagree with it, but if he wants to talk about beating up black people or whatever, fine. My brother is a perfect example, he doesn't like 95% black people because of personal experiences. I can't change his opinion, I just let him know he is not allowed to talk like that in front of me. He has a right to make the assumption that "95% of black people are assholes" but as long as he doesn't act on it to another black person, and as long as he doesn't make comments in front of me, he is allowed in my house anytime.

[Jolena]

The thing is..peoples beliefs make up who they are, it says something about what type of person they are and it lends to their personality a great deal. So while opinions don't mean that they have actually DONE something, it DOES tell you who they are. And for me? I wouldn't want to subject myself or any of my family to someone who is that disturbed, in my opinion about values.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Jolena
The thing is..peoples beliefs make up who they are, it says something about what type of person they are and it lends to their personality a great deal. So while opinions don't mean that they have actually DONE something, it DOES tell you who they are. And for me? I wouldn't want to subject myself or any of my family to someone who is that disturbed, in my opinion about values. You can't (accurately) judge someone based on one facet of their personality. I think pre-marital sex is one of the worst things going, but that doesn't mean I think Longshot is a bad person (singling out Longshot because, c'mon, he made a topic about it).

I don't hate Bob either, because saying dumb, bad, hateful things doesn't make one a dumb, bad, or hateful person.

[Jolena]

I don't hate anyone to be honest. I find I am a pretty open minded person and understand and support each person having the right to their opinions/views. However, I also support my own right to not want that person in my home because if they believe/support/boast of things such as those mentioned here, then NO I don't want them around my children or my loved ones because of two reasons.

1) I don't want them to influence my family or lead them to believe that this is acceptable behavior.

2) I don't want to jeapordize my family by subjecting them to someone who may not have ACTED on said beliefs, has the possibility to, and might try it on one of my loved ones.

[Jolena]

And I'm sorry, but yes, someone's beliefs DO lend truth to the type of person they are. Hateful tendencies, opinions, beliefs in MY opinion, lend to the realization that the person having those beliefs/tendencies/opinions is most likely not a good person to have around my kids.

[Latrinsorm]

Hey, I'm all for paranoia, but I don't see how Person X (who hates Asian people) is any more dangerous than I (I don't hate anyone, man, peace and love) if there aren't any Asian people in your house. Or switch that if you happen to have Asian people in your house.

[Artha]

saying != believing.

[Jolena]

I have to disagree, but then again, that is part of life eh? Everyone having their own rules with which to live their lives by.

[Artha]

I have to disagree, but then again, that is part of life eh? Everyone having their own rules with which to live their lives by.

Really? The sky sure is a lovely shade of puce.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Artha
saying != believing.

That depends on to whom you are speaking, Artha. In the adult world, most people take your word at face value. If you say it, they will take it as exactly what you MEANT to say, and as an expression of your views on a given subject. You WILL be judged based on the impression you make on others.

This can have far-reaching ramifications...affecting employment, friendships, and other important areas of your life. It is a good thing to remember.

HarmNone

[Atlanteax]

Looks like Jamus is just simply on a power trip. :thumbsdown:

(Nevermind that he has the right to do what he wants with his program...)

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Atlanteax]

[Hulkein]

I don't let athiests in my house because

(As Jolena said)

1) I don't want them to influence my family or lead them to believe that this is acceptable behavior.

2) I don't want to jeapordize my family by subjecting them to someone who may not have ACTED on said beliefs, has the possibility to, and might try it on one of my loved ones. -- I'd hate to have them destroy any of my pictures or crucifixes because hey, they don't believe in them.

[Edited on 5-1-2004 by Hulkein]

[Bobmuhthol]

I'm atheist, but I don't care what the fuck you think, because I'm not you.

I'd also punch you in the face and steal your house if you didn't let me in. Jerk.

[Hulkein]

Just an example incase anyone really took it at face value. (I know you knew it was, Bob, just saying for anyone else who may have not read all previous posts.)

[Bobmuhthol]

Heh, I just sat around and thought about what you said for a few minutes, and came to the conclusion that I would make sure to not affect your (assumed) Christianity/Catholicism in any way because, hell, you're going to church and putting effort into a religion, whereas I don't do a thing involving religion. More work for you, loser.

Run-on sentence, but I thought it was pretty humorous.

[Tisket]

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
<<Face it, if Jamus didn't have the ability to ban then Bobmuhthol would never have changed his profile.>>

If nobody said anything about my profile then I would have never changed it.

Those two statements are worlds apart, and I'd like to send you a hearty, virtual FUCK OFF.

Right. If Jamus was just another Joe Schmoe that happened across your profile and asked you politely to change it you would have said "oh sure, no problem friend"? Bullshit. There are people that only respond to the stick and carrot method. You are one.

[Bobmuhthol]

Maybe if I strongly believed in seeing fucking faggots and leaving scars with crowbars, but unfortunately I don't. Therefore, it can be concluded that you lose.

I'm not saying I would change it for anyone, either, but I certainly wouldn't leave it there if someone was seriously concerned about it. My opinion of people and the decisions I make are very dependent on the approach used.

[Ravenstorm]

For me, it's not at all a question of what they might or might not do or if they endanger anyone in my household. It's a simple question of respect. My respect for them. If I can't respect someone, I won't associate with them. And quite simply, I can't respect a bigot. It's not at all complicated.

If you don't respect someone who's an atheist, that's your right. If you don't respect someone who engages in premarital sex, that's your right. It's your choice to associate with them or not. I will not be friends with someone I can't respect. And for me, bigotry against any group as a whole is a huge issue and says a lot about that person in my eyes. Simple as that.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by HarmNone
If you say it, they will take it as exactly what you MEANT to say, and as an expression of your views on a given subject. Jeez, adults have no sense of humor. :P

[Varsus]

I think people who discriminate are shallow minded.

If you really think you are so much better than some else because your beliefs are "higher" or your "god" is better, I personally think you need to take a step back and think about what you’re saying.

If you really would not let an atheist in your house, what if it was your BROTHER? Would you cut your family off because they are not as "pure" as you?

Sure that isn't what you said, but its along those lines.... If you would hate just because they are not like you... that’s well dumb.

-Varsus (I hate, but I don't discriminate)

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Varsus
If you really would not let an atheist in your house, what if it was your BROTHER? Would you cut your family off because they are not as "pure" as you?That was Hulkein's point (I think).

[Hulkein]

I don't truely believe that, I was just showing Jolena that her two reasons for not letting someone in her house were far-fetched.

Originally posted by Wezas
Sorry I misread your post, took it out of context. Also, the following is the meanest thing anyone's ever said to me.


Originally posted by Gemstone101
You're pulling an Edine and reading one sentence out of the post, however failing to read the rest of it.

You wound me Wezas, you wound me deeply.

[Drew2]

Originally posted by Varsus
I think


HAHAHAHHAHAAHAH

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

[Hanksbane]

Originally posted by Varsus
I think people who discriminate are shallow minded.

I agree


If you really think you are so much better than some else because your beliefs are "higher" or your "god" is better, I personally think you need to take a step back and think about what you’re saying.

I agree, but me not respecting someone because one of thier beliefs is that hurting and commiting violence against someone just because of race or sexual orientation is NOT discrimination. We're not talking about someone thinking "Hi, Gay people are dumb." we're talking about "Gay people should be beaten to death." The first thing is a belief anyone has the right to have. I may think its dumb and ignorant but what the hey, it's a free country. The second belief is one I DO have a problem with. It talkes about violence. Are you telling me that its his right to promote violence against someone? I'm no law expert, but I think that thats wrong.



If you really would not let an atheist in your house, what if it was your BROTHER? Would you cut your family off because they are not as "pure" as you?


This is up to the individual. I personally wouldn't.



Sure that isn't what you said, but its along those lines.... If you would hate just because they are not like you... that’s well dumb.

Wasn't that the point? Bob had a quote on his profile about violence against gay people. By your statement, thats dumb. It was not only dumb, but it was hurtful and offending. Hence action was taken.


-Varsus (I hate, but I don't discriminate)

Good for you.

[Chyrain]

One thing I've noticed in my time reading these boards is that most of the young (especially) male users of these boards have this need to be seen as outrageous and witty and funny and be a badass.

Unfortunately, for one to stay in the higher ranks of supreme eh...pwnership...they have to constantly outdo themselves. And now it's just gotten to the point that it's in the controversial range. I saw this kind of stuff coming a mile away. In fact, I'm actually surprised it didn't happen sooner.

I believe Bob when he says he doesn't really want to kill a fag with a crowbar....now. The problem with this kind of behavior, though, is that once you've tread into the water, to stay "on top" or to keep outdoing yourself, you have to keep going in the forward motion.

For example, Bob regularly tells people to go kill themselves or die. Now he's singling out a certain type of person to do so...step by step, it builds into a weird sort of mantra. Then he really starts to feel what he says with sincereity. Then he acts on it. That's how it works.

I hardly think that most people who turn into the type of person who can intentionally kill actually feels hatred enough to actually comit the crime when they're 13 years old...but 5 or 6 years of "pretending" to hate could certainly push someone over the edge.

I don't want to point Bob out solely for this type of behavior because he's certainly not the only one here that is trying to shock and amaze us all with their quick tongues and sharp wit. Sadly, it's not really impressing anyone. So perhaps we can all just collectively take a breath and chill out on all this violent, over-the-top, inappropriate and damaging humor and just be normal.

aiight?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Chyrain
For example, Bob regularly tells people to go kill themselves or die.Not anymore he doesn't.

I still think Bob's funny.

[Varsus]

Originally posted by Tayre

Originally posted by Varsus
I think


HAHAHAHHAHAAHAH

:lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2::lol2:

Heh


Originally posted by Hanksbane We're not talking about someone thinking "Hi, Gay people are dumb." we're talking about "Gay people should be beaten to death." The first thing is a belief anyone has the right to have. I may think its dumb and ignorant but what the hey, it's a free country. The second belief is one I DO have a problem with. It talkes about violence. Are you telling me that its his right to promote violence against someone? I'm no law expert, but I think that thats wrong.


Unfortunately due to my “radical” beliefs about how the freedom of speech should be upheld, I feel it is his right to say whatever he wants as long as he does not take actions on those beliefs.
How ever wrong it may be, I still feel (and don’t take it as me advocating what he said) that he had the right to say that (even if he didn’t mean it). Sure you can’t yell bomb in an airplane or fire in the theater, because it could cause mass panic which could lead to harm of others.
But I really don’t think that bobs profile (which yes you have to click on to see) could do the same effect.

What I do have a problem with, is people discriminating against others with actions (banning people from spinet… beating, shooting or in any other way harming). I know those examples are on opposite sides of the spectrum but it’s the Idea I am trying to get across.

The fact is that some people need to step back and realize that on some levels they are no better than the people the so hate. I have no problem with person 1 hating everyone in existence, but the minute he goes from thinking and saying it, to doing something about it… it’s wrong.

-Varsus

Like I said before, I hate to discuss this in this thread because I have a great deal of respect for Jamus, Everyone makes mistakes, I know I personally have discriminated against people, but we are all just human.

I can’t honestly argue I am better than anyone, I do not know any of you personally so that leaves me no room to judge. But I do think some people need to analyze how they react to being “discriminated against” or “hated” because 2 wrongs don’t make a right.

[TheEschaton]

The law says speech which incites a crime is not protected by freedom of speech.


The grey area is what "incites" means. The Klan cannot say "Go kill a black man", what it CAN say is "Black men have no right to live", or even "Black men should be killed". The latter, by the use of "should", and the generality (IE, it's not directed, as a command, it's merely considered "opinion" which doesn't have to be acted on) of it, is also free speech.

-TheE-

[Varsus]

Right, well Im not trying to argue the fine lines of the law as much as to say that Person 1 said something, Person 2 (victim of speach) DID something.

I think doing is worse than saying.

-Varsus

[Tendarian]

For example, Bob regularly tells people to go kill themselves or die. Now he's singling out a certain type of person to do so...step by step, it builds into a weird sort of mantra. Then he really starts to feel what he says with sincereity. Then he acts on it. That's how it works.

This is a huge stretch here. Do you honestly think Bob in four or five years is going to be hanging out back behind gay bars with crow bar in hand? By this example all moderates of any issue will become huge extremists eventually as long as they are young males.

[Bobmuhthol]

For clarification, the lines are lyrics to a song.

[GSLeloo]

Ok for the atheist thing.. I am personally an Atheist and that is my choice. I don't look at other Atheists and be like "wow you fucking rock" or look at religious people and be like "you're ignorant assholes." I judge people on an personal basis, I don't throw people into categories and judge them together. I don't care if you're religious, that's your choice and as long as you don't push it on me that's fine. People should be defined by their actions and their personalities, not whatever categories they fit into.

[Hulkein]

<<People should be defined by their actions>>

That was the point I was making, Leloo. Heh, I'm glad people have responded that way as that was my intent.

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by Hulkein]

[Ravenstorm]

And in this case, the /action/ was to tell the world at large 'I approve of this message'. And the message was one of hate. You can either take a stand and enforce consequences on such views or you can do nothing and let them continue. Or maybe you just need to wait till someone you know or even you, yourself is beaten with a crowbar so it's important enough.

There is a HUGE difference between a belief about whether or not there's a deity and a belief about it being cool to hurt or kill people. The analogy is inane.

Raven

[Chyrain]

Originally posted by Tendarian
This is a huge stretch here. Do you honestly think Bob in four or five years is going to be hanging out back behind gay bars with crow bar in hand? By this example all moderates of any issue will become huge extremists eventually as long as they are young males.

Of course my example was oversimplied for the current situation at hand. But yes, I do believe that even our little baby bob can become a menace to society by practicing on a regular basis what he considers a big joke here.

We are not inherently good creatures, we humans...we do some screwed up things and it doesn't take that much to set us off, obviously.

I'm not trying to single out Bob as our next big serial killer, I'm just using him as an example to make my point because he's the current topic of controversy.

[Edited on 5-2-2004 by Chyrain]

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
There is a HUGE difference between a belief about whether or not there's a deity and a belief about it being cool to hurt or kill people. The analogy is inane.

Raven

I wasn't using it to compare with Bob, I was using it to compare with Jolena who said that she wouldn't let anyone in her house who dislikes certain people.. Not people who ACT on it, just people who dislike them and keep it to themselves.

[Artha]

we do some screwed up things

We do some awesome things too. Humanity as a whole is far to complex to stick in a single category.

[Bobmuhthol]

Victory exceeds humanity (refer to signature).

Coolest. Phrase. EVAR.

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein
I was using it to compare with Jolena who said that she wouldn't let anyone in her house who dislikes certain people.. Not people who ACT on it, just people who dislike them and keep it to themselves.

Actually, I said the same exact thing. Since I can't respect a bigot, they most certainly won't be allowed into my home. Though that's as much because I couldn't and wouldn't ever be friends with one. However, if the person truly kept it to himself, I wouldn't know about it.

I was addressing Varsus more though since he picked up the ball and ran with the whole 'it's just as wrong' arguement. No, it's not.

Raven

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Artha

we do some screwed up thingsWe do some awesome things too. Humanity as a whole is far to complex to stick in a single category. For example, Artha. He says cool stuff like this, yet he thinks Simon and Garfunkel are crappy. He rulz, and he sux. Then there's that spider thing.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Actually, I said the same exact thing. Since I can't respect a bigot, they most certainly won't be allowed into my home. Though that's as much because I couldn't and wouldn't ever be friends with one. However, if the person truly kept it to himself, I wouldn't know about it.

If it's out of respect I can see not allowing them into your home.. my athiest example was more to show that her two reasons were sketchy as to why someone would not be allowed into your house.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Chadj
it can happen because of this: Jamus owns Psinet. Jamus can do what he wants.

This along with 'temporarily' banning my characters or friends characters because they happen to have a verbal spar with any friends of his on Psinet as well as locating my characters while they have their locate option turned off have led me to remove Psinet. This discretionary authority brought about solely because he holds the keys to the program and his liberal use of admin tools convinced me that the benefits were not worth the potential costs or inconvienences.

Its a shame too, I enjoyed some of the spell short commands that made hunting with spells quicker than prep/cast/channel.

You're a talented coder Jamus and you should be lauded for sticking up for what you believe in, just be prepared for the consequences of applying your beliefs to the general public or letting your emotions dictate the application of your efforts... Simu has enough GM's who let their bias, friends, etc. interfere with the fair application of their (SIMU) authority, and I've been told that they are constantly making efforts to remedy that. So if being a GM is your goal then you might keep that in mind... in my opinion.

Either way, I'm to be considered a former user of Psinet. And in no way should this post reflect in any way a defense, expressed or implied, to Bob.

**edited to add 'temporarily' in first paragraph**

[Edited on 5-3-2004 by Ganalon]

[Edaarin]

Ganalon, were you banned from PSInet or from one of the chat channels? The reason I ask is I had a problem with one of Jamus' moderators, and I was blocked from the OOC channel by said moderator (not Jamus). If you have a legitimate complaint about how things were handled, I'd talk to him first to see if you could get the issue resolved.

On a similar note, I too uninstalled PSInet shortly after that experience, as it left a bad taste in my mouth that a number of the moderators (I think Atreau or Philosian was one too) had the intelligence of drunk retarded monkeys high off of paint fumes.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

LMAO, Atreau/Philosilan are moderators? That is hilarious, why not just make Warclaidhm one also for the trifecta of stupidity.

[Gan]

Temporarily blocked/banned from the OOC channel.

This happened a while back, before there were mods so there's no question it was Jamus's actions behind it. It was also confirmed because I could log onto another character of mine and Psinet would connect immediately, yet Psinet would not connect when I logged my 'blocked' character.

Either way, that and the abuse of the locate command by Jamus when I had my character's locate option turned off convinced me that this was not the program for me.

This and my previous post is not meant to sway folks against using Psinet. It is simply here to voice my opinion about why I do not use Psinet, and since there is a thread giving me the opportunity I have taken advantage of it. There's no personal animosity I hold for Jamus, I do not know him personally; thus he deserves the respect every stranger gets upon meeting or dealing with me. In fact it takes an awful lot of idiocy for me to hold animosity against someone in a text based fantasy RP game... and usually then I just block/squelch them. My time is too valuable to allow someone behind another keyboard to gain control over my actions and emotions.

[Latrinsorm]

You realize you could Psinet Unlink and still use all the cool stuff, right?

[Anebriated]

I think the point of it was to boycott the program because of the fact that Jamus used his powers as an admin to bypass his(Ganalon's) personal settings. He was located by Jamus despite the option being turned off. Also one char being banned for saying something against a friend of Jamus while the others had full use doesn't really help the case.

[Drew2]

>moderate OOC ban Elrodin

The PsiNet informs you that Elrodin is now banned from the OOC channel.
>

You lose.

[Latrinsorm]

I just want to say that after using this Psinet thing for a day or so, I am sincerely frightened of Tayre being in a position of power. It's a good kind of frightening so far, though.

[Anebriated]

Hes not really in a position of power, he talks alot but little is done. We dont really break TOS so he has no real reason to ban any of us. he likes to say it on the net but with a few exceptions has never actually done it.

The most amusing part of this all is that the thread was started because of a mod abusing powers(or so was said) and then Tayre went and posted his banning of me... I couldn't care less about it as it was only temporary and included me typing 'tune ooc' again to bypass but amusing nonetheless.

[Gan]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
You realize you could Psinet Unlink and still use all the cool stuff, right?

Oh, that reminds me... he can also [SEND] messages to you even though you are unlinked... as was the case after I had unlinked Psinet preceeding an incident where Jamus casted and failed a ward upon one of my characters and got webbed and bound for it. That was a little spooky as well, since I chose to unlink until things could be sorted out in the game.

[Parkbandit]

I just hope PsiNet doesn't become an ego trip like Klaive.net became.

I really enjoy PsiNet.