Any linguistics majors?

[Farn]

I used the name "Undm" for a psuedo-deity name in my game. A friend is telling me that the name is linguistically "impossible" and that it must either be "Und'm" or have a vowel between the d and the m (such as "Undem","Undim", etc.). I'm looking at old Norse words like hrdor, almr, lykd, gnogr, salr, fjandmadr, and jafn and having trouble seeing how "Undm" is "impossible."

Her beef appears to be with the letters d and m being right next to each other, and the word ending on the m without a vowel before or after it. I asked what would happen if someone got cut off saying the word "grandmother" at the "m" part, and she replied that you would end up adding a vowel sound at the end, apparently due to the "d" before it.

I think the real reason behind her attacks on my made-up name is because I denied her some apostrophe-heavy names and words she wanted to use, since I dislike their cliche over-use in fantasy. However, if any folks learned in linguistics are around here and could help put this little debate to rest one way or the other, I'd be grateful. All you people who grump about sub-par performing bards, now is your time to shine.

[Delias]

I used the name "Undm" for a psuedo-deity name in my game. A friend is telling me that the name is linguistically "impossible" and that it must either be "Und'm" or have a vowel between the d and the m (such as "Undem","Undim", etc.). I'm looking at old Norse words like hrdor, almr, lykd, gnogr, salr, fjandmadr, and jafn and having trouble seeing how "Undm" is "impossible."

Her beef appears to be with the letters d and m being right next to each other, and the word ending on the m without a vowel before or after it. I asked what would happen if someone got cut off saying the word "grandmother" at the "m" part, and she replied that you would end up adding a vowel sound at the end, apparently due to the "d" before it.

I think the real reason behind her attacks on my made-up name is because I denied her some apostrophe-heavy names and words she wanted to use, since I dislike their cliche over-use in fantasy. However, if any folks learned in linguistics are around here and could help put this little debate to rest one way or the other, I'd be grateful. All you people who grump about sub-par performing bards, now is your time to shine.


Tell her the M is silent.

edit: and to get a fucking life.

[waywardgs]

The u, n and d are silent also.

[iJin]

Tell her it's just a game.

[TheEschaton]

She's technically right, two consonants consecutively usually form the delineation between two syllables, and a syllable usually has a vowel sound in it. I bet if you studied the ancient Norse words you're looking at there, that there were implied vowel sound in the language, just like how in Hebrew YHWH had vowel sounds implied inbetween. Judging from the lack of E's in those words, I imagine the implied vowel sound is an E, and if it's a different vowel, it's actually written.

Being as you're making up this language, though, it shouldn't matter. No one is actually going to speak it, so you don't need to make up the rules of how it's pronounced. People who see the word Undm, if saying it to themself, will naturally put a vowel sound in there if they make it a two syllable word, which would be the natural thing to do.

-TheE-

[Farn]

Hmm. If old Norse can have implied vowel sounds and leave them out in their spelling, why couldn't my made-up name do the same?

My pronunciation guide for the "dm" sound: Say "Grandma." Now say it again without the a ("ah" sound) at the end.

Would there be an implied vowel there between the d and m? I can see how there might be if you put real effort into making your d sound nice and clear, but I'm closing my mouth right as my tongue leaves the area just behind my upper front teeth to make the "d" sound. Is a vowel sneaking in there? Is it that there -should- be a vowel sound in there, and I'm just practicing bad speech technique?

Either way, I don't see where there's an issue with the spelling, which is where the main issue was. I think she was trying to make me use an apostrophe.

[Stanley Burrell]

Woah.

[4a6c1]

Her education sounds limited to one alphabet. If you get a chance listen to some Russian news casters or something on youtube. Functionally spoken cyrillic when used in short descriptive bursts is crazy weird for an English speaker. You will come to the quick conclusion that you can do whatever the hell you want to do with language because that journalist in Kiev has marbles in his mouth and where did all the vowels go? Were they ever there to begin with? In Soviet Russian, do vowels pronounce you?

Perhaps.

[Stanley Burrell]

Dear OP,

It depends on the particular pitch and how shrill the sound is...

When you choke a bitch like your name was Wayne Brady.

"Maybe this is a *dude* playing a female character," you don't ask yourself, but read what you wrote. In all honesty, this looks like something the children who ate lead chips bode over.

You're a GM. Just do something code-related or whatever and change her name to "Undmundmundmundmundmundmundmundmundm."

[Farn]

http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/duty_calls.png

[Latrinsorm]

The collection of sounds used in English does not represent the complete set of all possible (and therefore linguistically valid) human sounds. Some written languages do have implied vowels, but some have to represent sounds that simply do not exist in English. The Anglicization schemes people come up with to communicate this are often hilariously counter-intuitive, as far as I'm concerned you are 100% in the right on this issue and that betch is trying to keep shoes from you.

[pabstblueribbon]

Tell that bitch to be cool!

Say, bitch, be cool!

[TheEschaton]

Hmm. If old Norse can have implied vowel sounds and leave them out in their spelling, why couldn't my made-up name do the same?

My pronunciation guide for the "dm" sound: Say "Grandma." Now say it again without the a ("ah" sound) at the end.

Would there be an implied vowel there between the d and m? I can see how there might be if you put real effort into making your d sound nice and clear, but I'm closing my mouth right as my tongue leaves the area just behind my upper front teeth to make the "d" sound. Is a vowel sneaking in there? Is it that there -should- be a vowel sound in there, and I'm just practicing bad speech technique?

Either way, I don't see where there's an issue with the spelling, which is where the main issue was. I think she was trying to make me use an apostrophe.

Grandma is a two syllable word with a delineation between the d and the m. If you're saying Undm is a two syllable word, fine. The letter m in a syllable by itself can be pronounced with difficulty (think an "mmmm" sound), but even as two syllables, the transition between the d and the m will naturally have a vowel sound in it. But there is no English pronounciation of Undm as a one syllable word that makes sense, unless the m is silent.

For example, when I was learning Bantu languages, there were certain words like mpone, and mbuntu that were very difficult to pronounce, and these weren't even trailing m's. The first word, I found, was pronounced muh-PON-ee, even by natives, and the second with the "mmmm" sound as its own, leading syllable, to make it mmm-BOON-too.

[pabstblueribbon]

Implied syllables based on the sound the letter makes when you say it.

It's not that hard. You can still read a dumb license plate even if its missing its vowels.

/endthread

[Farn]

Yes, it would be two syllables. I didn't think I had given the impression that I wanted it to be just one. "Und" followed by "mm." It's not supposed to sound like an English word or be spoken with English pronunciation.

[pabstblueribbon]

Tell her that in your world, people who used apostrophes were hunted down and killed during the great Apostrophe Inquisition.

[Solkern]

Yeah, Russian is crazy

try making the "ts' sound
tsaritsyno
Царицыно

"ts" sound, I don't think is in the English Language, and it's very difficult to pronounce

[Stanley Burrell]

Yeah, Russian is crazy

try making the "ts' sound
tsaritsyno
Царицыно

"ts" sound, I don't think is in the English Language, and it's very difficult to pronounce

That is child's play. Try pronouncing the hissing letter "T" in Nahuatl. Once the speech center of you brain is developed though, maybe motoric movements of the mouth stop too.

Also, Boris-Tzu (and for the sheer sake of perpetuation this gobbledygook),

"Erre con erre, guitarra, erre con erre, carril -- que rápido que ruedan, las ruedas del ferrocarril."

[Askip]

Must.
Resist.
Temptation
to make cunning linguist jokes.

:D

[Stanley Burrell]

Must.
Resist.
Temptation
to make cunning linguist jokes.

:D

Oh, c'mon man, this whole fiesta is much-ado-about-nothing. Check it:


Grandma is a two syllable word with a delineation between the d and the m. If you're saying Undm is a two syllable word, fine. The letter m in a syllable by itself can be pronounced with difficulty (think an "mmmm" sound), but even as two syllables, the transition between the d and the m will naturally have a vowel sound in it. But there is no English pronounciation of Undm as a one syllable word that makes sense, unless the m is silent.

For example, when I was learning Bantu languages, there were certain words like mpone, and mbuntu that were very difficult to pronounce, and these weren't even trailing m's. The first word, I found, was pronounced muh-PON-ee, even by natives, and the second with the "mmmm" sound as its own, leading syllable, to make it mmm-BOON-too.

Well, since you're Indian, I should tell you that I pronounce Gandhi-Bot correctly. And shouldn't buy more because I am poor. Jasmati rice from now on.

[Farn]

Oh, c'mon man, this whole site is much-ado-about-nothing.

Fixed. Now let's hear some cunning linguist jokes.

[DCSL]

It's possible. Perhaps not to a native American English speaker, but she'll have to learn that we are not the world.

[Delias]

It's possible. Perhaps not to a native American English speaker, but she'll have to learn that we are not the world.

Don't even suggest such a ludicrous idea. If we are not the world, then who is the world? China? Don't even tell me China is the world, you commie bastardess.

[Latrinsorm]

If we are not the world, then who is the world?http://gossip.whyfame.com/files/2010/01/we_are_the-world.jpeg