Rogue vs. Ranger?

[Middian]

I have just recently broken into the archery world and was surprised to find how involved it is. The main question I have is concerning Rogues vs. Rangers.

1. Over all, who make better archers Rogues or Rangers? I see that rogues skills costs are considerably cheaper, but rangers have the advantage of archer aiding spells.

2. I am looking for some hiding crossbow basic macro scripts if people wouldn’t mind sharing theirs. I feel like an idiot fumbling around trying to kill a kobold! =P

3. CMAN path for archers?

4. Any other tidbits and insights would be appreciated

P.S. Archery Guide was extremely insightful. Thank you all that contributed.

[Drew]

I feel like rangers are made for archery. Every adjustment in the last 5 years for rangers has been to make them better archers. You don't even need to train in CM so you can put points towards other stuff.

[BriarFox]

Rogues make better snipers; rangers are equally as good or better at everything else. Post-cap, rogues fall behind quickly, though if a rogue learns a lot of spells, it can even out.

[Kitsun]

I think the choice is heavily dependant on what else you want to do. If you want to pick locks, go rogue. If you don't care about that, then rangers are pretty good with spells.

If your goal is pre-cap, I think rogues are easier to handle. Post-cap and rangers (as pretty much all semis compared to squares) take the cake.

[DevonG]

Archer wise? It's really like Kitsun said, what all do you want to do?

If you go rogue. Picking/Archer isn't a bad lifestyle at all. I recall a great Rogue by the name of Porcell who made it look like a cake walk.

However late game, I'd say Rangers got it best in the long run though. AG is kinda in favor of the ranger over the rogue IMO. You still have quite a few ways to make silvers between skinning and foraging. I'd definitely pick up cman smastery then drop cman's all together unless you wanna train for feint and sweep in your later years.

I chose a ranger over a rogue because when it came down to a fight vs. a Rogue.

Base training plan for Ranger(Hiding):
2x Ranged
2x S&H
2x Perception
1x Armor
1x PT
1x HP
1x Spell
.5x CM
.75x Dodge

Then there's the other route, voln fu archer rangers are pretty sick, not gonna lie. Don't have a writing plan out for one right now because I like to hide(Onar worshiper).

Good luck with whatever route ya go.

[Asha]

Archer wise? It's really like Kitsun said, what all do you want to do?

If you go rogue. Picking/Archer isn't a bad lifestyle at all. I recall a great Rogue by the name of Porcell who made it look like a cake walk.

However late game, I'd say Rangers got it best in the long run though. AG is kinda in favor of the ranger over the rogue IMO. You still have quite a few ways to make silvers between skinning and foraging. I'd definitely pick up cman smastery then drop cman's all together unless you wanna train for feint and sweep in your later years.

I chose a ranger over a rogue because when it came down to a fight vs. a Rogue.

Base training plan for Ranger(Hiding):
2x Ranged
2x S&H
2x Perception
1x Armor
1x PT
1x HP
1x Spell
.5x CM
.75x Dodge

Then there's the other route, voln fu archer rangers are pretty sick, not gonna lie. Don't have a writing plan out for one right now because I like to hide(Onar worshiper).

Good luck with whatever route ya go.
Ambush?

The only thing that made me decide rogue over ranger was the fact they can wear plate.

[kgolfer]

I cruise through OTF wearing 7x hauberk with an offensive DS well over 500 as a ranger with the standard wizard spells as an addition.

[kgolfer]

In offense with sigils and basic wizard spells, without statue.

An Ithzir adept swings a twisted crystal-tipped staff at you!
AS: +408 vs DS: +585 with AvD: +14 + d100 roll: +55 = -108
A clean miss.
The scintillating light surrounding the staff fades some.

[BriarFox]

In offense with sigils and basic wizard spells, without statue.

An Ithzir adept swings a twisted crystal-tipped staff at you!
AS: +408 vs DS: +585 with AvD: +14 + d100 roll: +55 = -108
A clean miss.
The scintillating light surrounding the staff fades some.

What's your training plan?

[Middian]

Good information, thanks all. Does the training in brawling aid defensely? And other then wspec and shadowmastery there is not a whole lot of clan that are beneficial.

[Kitsun]

Brawling doesn't help archery DS.

If you go rogue, you get:
Combat Focus to shore up some TD deficiency
Disarm to keep your bow inhand
Combat Mobility to hop up if you're down
Surge of Strength for bow RT
Vanish for re-hiding while in RT

I'd probably wait on most of them till you free up some points but Shadow Mastery and Vanish are damn sexy.

I preferred Rogue over Ranger simply because Rangers always feel absurdly point strapped. Rogues hit their max bow AS pretty easily (2x Ranged/Perception/Ambush) and eventually you can tack on E-Targetting. A ranger trying to maximize bow AS slaughters their secondary and tertiary skills training which is one of the primary reasons to go ranger over rogue.

[BriarFox]

Brawling doesn't help archery DS.

If you go rogue, you get:
Combat Focus to shore up some TD deficiency
Disarm to keep your bow inhand
Combat Mobility to hop up if you're down
Surge of Strength for bow RT
Vanish for re-hiding while in RT

I'd probably wait on most of them till you free up some points but Shadow Mastery and Vanish are damn sexy.

I preferred Rogue over Ranger simply because Rangers always feel absurdly point strapped. Rogues hit their max bow AS pretty easily (2x Ranged/Perception/Ambush) and eventually you can tack on E-Targetting. A ranger trying to maximize bow AS slaughters their secondary and tertiary skills training which is one of the primary reasons to go ranger over rogue.

That's true, at least pre-cap. But then, doing 1x ambush rather than 2x only loses you 25 AS at cap, and you can more than offset that with a variety of disabling and knockdown spells. Rangers also get 608, which for a sniper is a constant +30 AS from hiding.

[Asha]

Do you mean spikethorn when you mean secondary skills?

[kgolfer]

Briar, I'm post cap and heavily trained more physical than mental (only 100 spells and very little secondary magic).

That said, I have a rogue archer and my capped ranger archer. I have tons more fun playing my ranger and will fixskill my rogue back to a OHE/ambusher in May.

I can fry in 3/4 less time behind the barrier with archery, don't have to wait for the griffins to attack, and 3 sec open aim one shot kills almost all the time.

I just hear, and see it, how most rogue say they have problems....the one that is successful (Wolf) hides in the shadows almost all the time.....that can get pretty slow and tetious.

[BriarFox]

Briar, I'm post cap and heavily trained more physical than mental (only 100 spells and very little secondary magic).

That said, I have a rogue archer and my capped ranger archer. I have tons more fun playing my ranger and will fixskill my rogue back to a OHE/ambusher in May.

I can fry in 3/4 less time behind the barrier with archery, don't have to wait for the griffins to attack, and 3 sec open aim one shot kills almost all the time.

I just hear, and see it, how most rogue say they have problems....the one that is successful (Wolf) hides in the shadows almost all the time.....that can get pretty slow and tetious.

Yeah, I'm post-cap, too, though I only have 8.3m exp. My DS with a full wizard spell-up is only a bit over 500 in offensive, though. I was just wondering where you were getting the extra boost.

[kgolfer]

dodge

[BriarFox]

dodge

I thought that might be it. Expensive skill, but useful.

[kgolfer]

the five D's.....dodge, duck, dip, dive....and dodge.....

full 2x trained in dodge

[Eliaku]

My ranger relies more on sniping. 2x hide and stalk. Smastery.

[kgolfer]

Yeah, that is a route.....griffins in OTF are preceptive enough to not guarantee a hide, that is why I open archery.

I think rogue are better at the hiding/sniping way due to 3x hiding and such.

BTW, that is my offensive DS, with 2x dodge, etc, most of the time I evade the attack or my wall of thornes catches it.

[Eliaku]

So even with 608 617 smaster colors. Rogues are better at hiding and staying hidden? Has this been tested?

[BriarFox]

So even with 608 617 smaster colors. Rogues are better at hiding and staying hidden? Has this been tested?

Anecdotal. However, 3x SH with Smastery (plus vanish) vs. 2x SH with Smastery + 617 still puts the rogue slightly ahead, I think, though the ranger does have 608 and silent movement as extra perqs.

[Asha]

I wouldn't enjoy hunting nearly as much without Vanish. That's a lifesaver.

[Eliaku]

608 does add to hiding a nd staying hidden and theres also assume panther rawrrrrr

[kgolfer]

I wear hauberk, so hinderance comes in a lot and a whole new skill set....likewise the 3sec RT if you hide.

Almost everything dies with one shot to the eye with me, you will still be hiding or waiting to attack with soft RT and I will be already moving on.


That is one of the reasons I am giving up archery with my rogue and, likewise, archery's one BIG downfall is attacking a critter in plate (which my rogue hunts). OTF works out as I don't even bother with Jan's, I imagine Droit will chime in how it is to hunt elsewhere.

[BriarFox]

Almost everything dies with one shot to the eye with me, you will still be hiding or waiting to attack with soft RT and I will be already moving on..

There's the entire argument for open archery. Spike thorn takes care of most stuff in plate, even if the plate does help reduce the damage. My ranger is fully trained in THW and Ranged, though, and so if I need to kill a construct or such, I just break out my bastard sword.

[Eliaku]

With smaster hide is 2 sec. I use spells so ill cast first and hide. So by the time my spell rt is done im already hidden and ready to fire. And the critter is on the ground fighting off the bugs

[droit]

Meh. I'm not a great example of your standard archer ranger because I'm so far post-cap and am way overtrained in spells. I think the general opinions in this thread have been pretty spot on so far; rogues make better archers earlier because of low TP and CM costs, but I think rangers really come into their own later on in levels (particularly at cap). I think rangers are a blast to play and where they really shine is their versatility. Our spells kick ass if you're trained for them, and they allow us a greater range of hunting targets than rogues. Magical rogues can be fun, but really the effects of their spells are limited to RT effects, knockdowns and AS/DS modifiers. Rangers have much more interesting spell options, including huge DS modifiers (607), moderate AS (608, 650), knockdowns (610, 615), poisons (615, 610, 640), spell hindrance (607), sustained third party assistance (610, 615, 630), effective crowd control (610, 619, 635) and one of the best direct damage spells in the game (616). That's not even mentioning all the utility our spells provide.

Oh, and we have better TD. And archer rangers can open their own boxes with 2x perception, 613, and 125.

[DevonG]

Yeah, that is a route.....griffins in OTF are preceptive enough to not guarantee a hide, that is why I open archery.

I think rogue are better at the hiding/sniping way due to 3x hiding and such.

BTW, that is my offensive DS, with 2x dodge, etc, most of the time I evade the attack or my wall of thornes catches it.

^^^^^ THIS


I did some acct leveling for a friend and the character was a 2wpn open ambush swinger. Never really got touched, and if I did, it wasn't really anything because the character was in hauberk. Wall of Thorns is sickmode. I also think 635 is one of the coolest spells ever (w/ the lores of course).

I like how the semi's have the ability to go Square or Pure these days. One thing I really wish Rangers would get, is some more kinda guild skills related to hiding. The ability to vanish while in RT, or kneel would definitely make us OP though.

[Middian]

Kinda slow with scripts, anyone have link or know a good lich fletching script? Thanks again for the info.

[kgolfer]

Lich has scripts for fletching. Go to the scripting discussions section in the forums.

[Eliaku]

You can make your own via sf its not hard at all. It would be bug less too

[DevonG]

Middian, check the scripts section.

I put a nice one out there that'll have you mastered in no time. Built for the Wizard FE.

Then if needed, I got another one that'll make cheap 4x arrows for ya.

PM me if you run into any problems or have question.