Flippity Flop Flop

[GSTamral]

<<
WHEELING, W.Va. - John Kerry (news - web sites), a decorated Navy veteran criticized by Republicans for his anti-war activities during the Vietnam era, lashed out at President Bush (news - web sites) on Monday for failing to prove whether he fulfilled his commitment to the National Guard during the same period.

In 1992, as Democratic candidate Bill Clinton (news - web sites) faced criticism for avoiding service in Vietnam, Kerry said, "We do not need to divide America over who served and how. I have personally always believed that many served in many different ways."
>>

<<<
Kerry was asked to reconcile two explanations for why he didn't throw his own medals: He told The Washington Post in 1985 it was because he didn't want to personally, and told the Boston Globe in 1996 that he didn't have time to go home and get them.
>>>

<<<
Kerry has never said he pretended to throw away his medals. For years, he has said that he threw his ribbons over a fence at the Capitol, not his three Purple Hearts, Bronze Star and Silver Star. He also has said that after the protest he threw the medals of two other veterans.


Nearly 800 veterans "gave back" their medals, ribbons, dog tags and other military items during a protest in April 1971. However, a tape of a television interview Kerry gave shortly after the protest suggested he had claimed that he also threw his medals.


In the exchange, aired Monday by ABC and published in The New York Times, an interviewer asks Kerry, "How many did you give back, John?" Kerry responds, "I gave back, I can't remember, six, seven, eight, nine." The host then notes that Kerry had won the Purple Hearts, and Bronze and Silver stars. Kerry says, "Well, and above that, I gave back my others."

>>>

[Wezas]

CT/Other Admins - How's that Political Folder coming along?

[Ilvane]

Don't you ever get tired of posting the same old tired stuff? :yawn:

-A

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Wezas
CT/Other Admins - How's that Political Folder coming along? Yeah, I thought this was going to be a Ric Flair (or Shawn Michaels) topic. :(

[Testosterone]

Who cares? Kerry is a lying liberal piece of shit. Everyone knows this already.

[GSTamral]

<<<
Don't you ever get tired of posting the same old tired stuff?
>>>

Don't you get tired of responding to it?

[Ilvane]

I try not to, really I do.;)

-A

[GSTamral]

I know Ilvane, just as hard as I try not to post it.

Originally posted by Wezas
CT/Other Admins - How's that Political Folder coming along?
See Harmnone, CT, Kranar people like my idea.

Edit: spelling.

[Edited on 4-27-2004 by The Edine]

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Testosterone
Who cares? Kerry is a lying liberal piece of shit. Everyone knows this already.

Oh shit... I ACTUALLY AGREE with Testosterone.

Someone shoot me. I may have to give Kerry another look.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ilvane
Don't you ever get tired of posting the same old tired stuff? :yawn:

-A

Yea.. sucks when his own words come back to bite him in the ass... huh.

[Ravenstorm]

Lying piece of shit? Much like Bush I guess:

http://www.factcheck.org/article.aspx?docID=177

Cheney... Weak on defense.

And to carry over from the haircut thread, I can see why Bush refuses to debate issues when he can just continue to lie about his oppponent. What a leader he is. By all means, argue that Kerry is doing the same: that would make them both political scum.

Raven

[Tendarian]

Is there a politician anywhere that isnt political scum?

You must see the difference right? Stretching the truth,which is bad, is different than out and out lying. Especially for what his lie was about. He was trying to show himself as noble.

[Ravenstorm]

And the 'stretching the truth' is Kerry throwing away some ribbons and calling them medals right?

While the out and out lying is distorting a voting record that your Vice President closely parallels?

Fighting for your country is pretty noble by itself... Something both Bush and Cheney decided wasn't for them.

Raven

[Wezas]

Amusing Bush vs. Bush

More humorous then political, though it has some thoughtful parts.

video (13mb):
http://ftp.archive.org/movies/lisarein/tvclips/dailyapril2003/4-28-03-bushvbush-sm.mov

just audio (8mb):
http://ftp.archive.org/movies/lisarein/tvclips/dailyapril2003/4-28-03-bushvbush.mp3

[Tendarian]

Your own words say Bush is distorting not ripping apart the truth.


Fighting for your country is pretty noble by itself... Something both Bush and Cheney decided wasn't for them.

Yes but you can be noble and not be in the military. Where as you cant be noble by imploding the truth into smithereens with the whole "im the kind of guy who stands up for what i believe in no matter what it costs me" act while sacrificing no real medals but those of other peoples. I wonder how many vets threw their medals cause they respected Kerry and now regret it and wish they could display theirs as well.

[Wezas]

Biased but factual (as far as I can tell) timeline, for those who don't do dates well:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/update/2004/02/02_400.html

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
And the 'stretching the truth' is Kerry throwing away some ribbons and calling them medals right?

While the out and out lying is distorting a voting record that your Vice President closely parallels?

Fighting for your country is pretty noble by itself... Something both Bush and Cheney decided wasn't for them.

Raven

Stretching the truth? His OWN WORDS contradict him. That's not stretching the truth.. that's simply lying... and something he's become very good at it seems.

And his voting record IS HIS VOTING RECORD. You can feel that it is distorted if you take a look at the entire picture of what he voted for and voted against.. but he DID VOTE to increase taxes, he did vote against many military spending bills, he DID vote for a big gas tax hike. I can agree with you that Bush is distorting the voting record.. but really, Kerry has only himself to blame when it all comes down to it.

And what is the difference again when discussing Bush's, Cheney's or Clinton's military record?

Damn.. here comes Clinton, once again biting you in the ass.:lol::lol:

[GSTamral]

<<<
Fighting for your country is pretty noble by itself... Something both Bush and Cheney decided wasn't for them.

Raven
>>>

Well then, by all means, let's include Kerry on this statement. He's accused the entire military of being filled with rapists and child killers, accusing the common soldier who defends this land and didnt have a PRIVATE doctor assess their wounds and determine 2 counts of "shrapnel" for a discharge of being nothing more than a bloodthirsty raping devil. When you call the common soldier who still fights for us a rapist, when you used a private doctor to get out of combat, I'm sorry, you're no more a hero than Bush was by serving in the national guard.

I dont care what you or Ilvane post about him being a hero. He threw it all out the window, along with whatever decency he claims to have. His best friend in the Senate built a family fortune smuggling drugs and alcohol into the country, and despite having the HIGHEST TAXES IN THE COUNTRY, their public education system ranks near the bottom of the middle, and they rank 43rd out of 50 states in medically uninsured children.

Arent you the same bunch of people who argued that Clinton running away to the UK was some sort of heroic model for everyone to follow? Oh, I thought so....

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Tendarian
Is there a politician anywhere that isnt political scum?That Kerrey fellow on the Daily Show seemed alright. Bit of an unfortunate name, though.

[GSTamral]

Kerry helped secure some union votes when he voted for that gas tax hike. In fact, he's voted for many gas tax hikes. A large portion of the gas tax goes towards spending on improving roads, money that is GARAUNTEED to union contracts in most states. The gas tax is running an unbelievable surplus right now, but again, Kerry voted against a reform in spending that would make that money available for things like say... health care.

Apparently because the children in his state don't vote yet, he doesn't care about them, which is why despite all those taxes, they rank 43rd in percentage of medically uninsured children. But those union votes count, so why take money out of their pockets and risk losing votes for what is right?

Gosh, Kerry sure is a man of the people huh?

[GSTamral]

I mean while we're at it, why not point out that the misery index is a longstanding economic benchmark that has been used by more LIBERAL economists to measure economic performance.

Isn't it odd that Kerry INVENTED a new "misery index" based on a select few numbers and statistics, NONE of which were part of the original formula (that's right NONE, NOT ONE, NADA), to make his up his own unique number which he then FALSELY LABELED the misery index?

[GSTamral]

I mean shit, I do doubt Bush's honesty in being a politician, but Kerry would make even Nixon look like a fucking saint.

[Ravenstorm]

Funny, I don't recall ever once saying Kerry was a hero. Oh, right. Because Tamral once again made it up. And lets see... When did I mention Clinton and the Uk? Oh, right. Another thing I never once claimed.

The fact though is Bush dodged Vietnam and Kerry did not. Feel free to lay into him for that.

Want to call Kerry a liar? Go right ahead. Bush is just as bad if not worse. Distorting the truth is just as big a lie as deliberately telling a falsehood. But hey, politics as usual right? Just admit to being a hypocrite if you pretend to claim it's alright for your candidate to do it.

Raven

[GSTamral]

<<
The fact though is Bush dodged Vietnam and Kerry did not. Feel free to lay into him for that.
>>

The fact is also that Kerry returned under controversial circumstances, and later called members of the armed forces "rapists" and "child-killers". It's better had he not even gone there.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Bush is just as bad if not worse.

Wrong.



Distorting the truth is just as big a lie as deliberately telling a falsehood. But hey, politics as usual right? Just admit to being a hypocrite if you pretend to claim it's alright for your candidate to do it.

You really can't see the difference between spinning facts for a TV ad and having some say 'I DID NOT DO THAT, THE RIGHT WING IS LYING.' and then showing a video tape of them saying 'I DID THAT.'?


The fact though is Bush dodged Vietnam and Kerry did not. Feel free to lay into him for that.

He didn't dodge Vietnam. He was doing his service. He did go through basic camp, he did fly jets, he did serve his country. No, it wasn't the hardest road but he did what the nation requested of him.

[Edited on 4-27-2004 by Hulkein]

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by GSTamral
The fact is also that Kerry returned under controversial circumstances, and later called members of the armed forces "rapists" and "child-killers". It's better had he not even gone there.

http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/mylai/mylai.htm

That covers the 'child killers' part. Rapists? I don't know. I wasn't there and really don't feel like searching for eye witness accounts or transcripts of trials. It wouldn't surprise me though since rape often occurs during war.

So yes, he's probably right in calling members of the armed forces "rapists" and "child-killers". I'm taking a guess here that he didn't call all or even most of the soldiers serving in Vietnam that. Just that there were some.

I will gladly admit to being wrong and will call him a bad, bad man if you find a transcript of his exact words where he labels all the soldiers serving there that.

Raven

[TheEschaton]

That Kerrey fellow on the Daily Show seemed alright. Bit of an unfortunate name, though.

He's out of politics now, Latrin. That's why he seems honest and open. ;) He's not running for office any more.


-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

And do we really want to start comparing Texas to Massachusetts, Tamral? And Bush had more of a hands-on role, being a gov'r, as opposed to a Senator.


-TheE-

[Wezas]

Originally posted by GSTamral
The fact is also that Kerry returned under controversial circumstances, and later called members of the armed forces "rapists" and "child-killers". It's better had he not even gone there.

Weren't there some armed forces that raped the Vietnamese women and killed children?

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by Wezas
Weren't there some armed forces that raped the Vietnamese women and killed children?

Yes. The link I posted above is an infamous episode of it: the My Lai massacre.


Two tragedies took place in 1968 in Viet Nam. One was the massacre by United States soldiers of as many as 500 unarmed civilians-- old men, women, children-- in My Lai on the morning of March 16. The other was the cover-up of that massacre.

Raven

[Edited on 4-27-2004 by Ravenstorm]

[GSTamral]

<<<
And do we really want to start comparing Texas to Massachusetts, Tamral? And Bush had more of a hands-on role, being a gov'r, as opposed to a Senator.


-TheE-
>>>

Texas ranks near the top of the middle in education, ranks below average in medical insurance for minors, ranks well above massachusetts in spending power per citizen (as calculated from cost of living vs average household income), ranks WELL below massachusetts in the percentage of the labor force who are under 18.

Texas uses the death penalty, Massachusetts does not. Massachusetts as a state ranks behind Texas in the number of violent crimes per 1000 citizens. Texas however, has nearly twice as many violent crimes involving guns. The tax rate in Massachusetts is much higher than that of Texas.

Massachusetts has more crimes per capita involving juveniles either in possession of, or under the influence of drugs or alcohol.

Massachusetts heavily endorses the use of toll roads, Texas does not.

It's just like what the Senator said in Gladiator. The Mass government will bring the people hell, and the people will love them for it.

Bad education systems, bad medicine systems, bad energy planning. You need look no further than California, Massachusetts, and New York. Three States that have a history of positively paving the path to stupidity.

Texas is by no means one of the better states, but quality of life certainly does beat out a state like a Massachusetts or a California.

[Prestius]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Ravenstorm
Bush is just as bad if not worse.

Wrong.



Distorting the truth is just as big a lie as deliberately telling a falsehood. But hey, politics as usual right? Just admit to being a hypocrite if you pretend to claim it's alright for your candidate to do it.

You really can't see the difference between spinning facts for a TV ad and having some say 'I DID NOT DO THAT, THE RIGHT WING IS LYING.' and then showing a video tape of them saying 'I DID THAT.'?



Yeah .. the Bush Administration is a bastion of honesty:

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record

-P

[Hulkein]

Hey I never heard that before, thanks!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Prestius
Yeah .. the Bush Administration is a bastion of honesty:

http://www.house.gov/reform/min/features/iraq_on_the_record

-P

The whole argument about how wrong Bush was for thinking there were WMDs in Iraq is laughable at best. The entire WORLD thought they were there. Iraq used them in the past against it's own citizens. We demanded a complete account for all of it's weapons in accordance with their surrender in the first Gulf War and Iraq came back with a big pile of bullshit.

If it were up to the pansy ass liberals of this country.. Saddam would still be in power and control at least Iraq and Kuwait right now... probably more. Tell me that this world ISN'T safer with this madman behind bars.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Tell me that this world ISN'T safer with this madman behind bars.Ends and means, anyone?

[TheEschaton]

The entire WORLD thought they were there. Iraq used them in the past against it's own citizens. We demanded a complete account for all of it's weapons in accordance with their surrender in the first Gulf War and Iraq came back with a big pile of bullshit.

Except the hundreds of millions of people who protested the war, leading up to it.

Furthermore, the chemical weapons used against his own people were weapons we supplied him, with the specific intent for him to use them. That they were used against Kurds, instead of our intended target, Iranian soldiers, is no less nor no more heinous than our intentions.

Lastly, we asked for a full account. They gave it. We immediately announced it as bullshit, even though WE DIDN'T READ IT BEFORE WE DEEMED IT THUS. Hans Blix said, "Hey, this report is a start", but we said no it wasn't. Considering what we've found after the war (IE, nothing), the report given by Iraq was more than bullshit, it was accurate. When Iraq was found to have rockets which weren't technically against their sanctions, but COULD BE modified into having a range longer than what they currently had, we DEMANDED they dismantle them. And, while they mildly protested, they started to dismantle them. They were half way dismantled, before the dismantling ended.

The only reason they didn't finish? The inspectors were told to leave, and we started invading them, that's why.

-TheE-

[Edited on 4-29-2004 by TheEschaton]

[Hulkein]

The people protesting the war didn't know jackshit about the WMDs. They simply said 'no it's not enough reason he's not using them.' Fact is he was trying to develop them even up till his end. World's a better place, Bush '04.

[TheEschaton]

If by "better place" you mean "few steps closer to the Eschaton and the destruction of the world", yeah, sure, I'll buy that.


-TheE-

[Hulkein]

By better place I mean an opening for the spread of democracy to the middle-east, and the freedom from tyranny of the Iraqi people.

[TheEschaton]

By better place I mean an opening for the spread of democracy to the middle-east, and the freedom from tyranny of the Iraqi people.

If you think that democracy is spreading in Iraq, and that the Iraqi people are free from tyranny...you've got something else coming.

Did you see their new flag? Blue and white (and yellow) like Israel's flag, which has pissed off Iraqis. Has the crescent moon of Islam on it, which of course, has pissed US off. The Iraqi gov'ning council can't do anything right. They had a nation-wide contest and, according to Jon Stewart (and therefore, is the truth) only had THIRTY entrants for it.


-TheE-

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by TheEschaton

The entire WORLD thought they were there. Iraq used them in the past against it's own citizens. We demanded a complete account for all of it's weapons in accordance with their surrender in the first Gulf War and Iraq came back with a big pile of bullshit.

Except the hundreds of millions of people who protested the war, leading up to it.

Furthermore, the chemical weapons used against his own people were weapons we supplied him, with the specific intent for him to use them. That they were used against Kurds, instead of our intended target, Iranian soldiers, is no less nor no more heinous than our intentions.



Confused as usual TheE. I wish I had your rose colored glasses.. my life would be.. rosey.

The entire world believed that Iraq had WMDs. The people protesting the war were not saying "Iraq has no WMD! Leave them alone" they were saying "Peace, not war". I have no problem with their beliefs.. but most people believed they had WMD.. in fact Iraq itself propogated that... probably in hopes to scare off the threat of war.

And whether we gave them the chemical weapons or not is not part of my argument.. the FACT THAT THEY HAD THEM IS.

[Parkbandit]

Liberals =

[Ravenstorm]

Sorry but the entire world did not believe Iraq had WMD. That's why the Coalition of the Bribed had to be formed. There may have been suspicion but it was by no means conclusive or proved anything which is why the UN weapon inspectors were there looking. And said weapon inspectors kept saying they were finding nothing but needed more time to be certain. Bush then said no, get out now so you don't get killed when we bomb them. Maybe you believed they had WMD. I did not. And it had nothing to do with 'war is teh evul'.

But then again, we all know conservatives are just heartless warmongers who care nothing for anyone but themselves and don't care who dies so long as they get more money out of it.

Raven

[DeV]

Originally posted by Hulkein
By better place I mean an opening for the spread of democracy to the middle-east, and the freedom from tyranny of the Iraqi people. Hulk, that arguement is not without holes. Our downfall is not that we went to war with Iraq for WMD, its that we went there with this arrogant attitude, the same one your displaying. As if 9/11 has taught us nothing. We're still trying to enforce "our" way of living onto others.
Democracy works for us, doesnt mean it works for everyone. In theory, yes, it would work, but one problem; in reality Iraq is populated by two groups, The Sunni and the Shiites. These two groups hate each other, and are not tolerant of each others beliefs whatsoever. There is no way in hell these two are going to put aside there differences and say okay lets try the American way!

[DeV]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Liberals = The Democratic partys' (politician's only) downfall is they don't stick to principals. Most are probably more Conservative then they would like to admit or come to terms with. The party is weak in their stance and often times are lacking in the identity that defines them- liberalism. On the other hand, Republican's (Politican's)downfall is sticking to their principals no matter how ridiculous, ludicris or detrimental to society they may be. Im just calling it as I see it, regardless of party affiliation. Being neither Demo or Repub.

Who did not believe that Saddam had or was hiding WMD's?
Who did not believe that Saddam did not hold true to the rules of the cease fire after the first iraq war?
And what were the 16 resoultions passed by the UN?

HELL why dont we just bring this up?

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/Investigation/oil_for_food_ripoff_040420-1.html

Page 3 and 4 are the most intresting


The following are the names of some of those listed as receiving Iraqi oil contracts (amounts are in millions of barrels of oil):

Russia
The Companies of the Russian Communist Party: 137 million
The Companies of the Liberal Democratic Party: 79.8 million
The Russian Committee for Solidarity with Iraq: 6.5 million and 12.5 million (two separate contracts)
Head of the Russian Presidential Cabinet: 90 million
The Russian Orthodox Church: 5 million

France
Charles Pasqua, former minister of interior: 12 million
Trafigura (Patrick Maugein), businessman: 25 million
Ibex: 47.2 million
Bernard Merimee, former French ambassador to the United Nations: 3 million
Michel Grimard, founder of the French-Iraqi Export Club: 17.1 million


Syria
Firas Mostafa Tlass, son of Syria's defense minister: 6 million

Turkey
Zeynel Abidin Erdem: more than 27 million
Lotfy Doghan: more than 11 million

Indonesia
Megawati Sukarnoputri: 11 million

Spain
Ali Ballout, Lebanese journalist: 8.8 million

Yugoslavia
The Socialist Party: 22 million
Kostunica's Party: 6 million

Canada
Arthur Millholland, president and CEO of Oilexco: 9.5 million

Italy
Father Benjamin, a French Catholic priest who arranged a meeting between the pope and Tariq Aziz: 4.5 million
Roberto Frimigoni: 24.5 million

United States
Samir Vincent: 7 million
Shakir Alkhalaji: 10.5 million

United Kingdom
George Galloway, member of Parliament: 19 million
Mujaheddin Khalq: 36.5 million

South Africa
Tokyo Saxwale: 4 million

Jordan
Shaker bin Zaid: 6.5 million
The Jordanian Ministry of Energy: 5 million
Fawaz Zureikat: 6 million
Toujan Al Faisal, former member of Parliament: 3 million

Lebanon
The son of President Lahoud: 5.5 million

Egypt
Khaled Abdel Nasser: 16.5 million
Emad Al Galda, businessman and Parliament member: 14 million

Palestinian Territories
The Palestinian Liberation Organization: 4 million
Abu Al Abbas: 11.5 million

Qatar
Hamad bin Ali Al Thany: 14 million

Libya
Prime Minister Shukri Ghanem: 1 million

Chad
Foreign minister of Chad: 3 million

Brazil
The October 8th Movement: 4.5 million

Myanmar (Burma)
The minister of the Forests of Myanmar: 5 million

Ukraine
The Social Democratic Party: 8.5 million
The Communist Party: 6 million
The Socialist Party: 2 million
The FTD oil company: 2 million

[Edited on 4-29-2004 by The Edine]

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheEschaton

By better place I mean an opening for the spread of democracy to the middle-east, and the freedom from tyranny of the Iraqi people.

If you think that democracy is spreading in Iraq, and that the Iraqi people are free from tyranny...you've got something else coming.

Did you see their new flag? Blue and white (and yellow) like Israel's flag, which has pissed off Iraqis. Has the crescent moon of Islam on it, which of course, has pissed US off. The Iraqi gov'ning council can't do anything right. They had a nation-wide contest and, according to Jon Stewart (and therefore, is the truth) only had THIRTY entrants for it.


-TheE-

I know Americans are used to instant gratification, but no one claimed it would be instantaneous democracy. I said opening a window..

they are also redoing the coloring of it The E.

[TheEschaton]

The people protesting the war were not saying "Iraq has no WMD! Leave them alone" they were saying "Peace, not war". I have no problem with their beliefs.. but most people believed they had WMD.. in fact Iraq itself propogated that... probably in hopes to scare off the threat of war.

Funny, I was out there protesting the war (twice in Washington, once in NYC, multiple times in Boston) and that wasn't what they were saying then. They were saying, "There's not enough proof to justify a unilateral, pre-emptive invasion of a sovereign nation."

Among the simplistic chants for "No blood for oil", of course.

-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

And Edine, individuals gaining advantages in the oil market through bribes and scandals are not indicative of why that country is unwilling to participate in the war.

Unless, of course, the FORMER Minister of the INTERIOR in France holds any sway in France. Or maybe the Communist Party in Russia, post 1990 has lots of sway on Russia's policy decisions?

-TheE-

[GSTamral]

<<<
Unless, of course, the FORMER Minister of the INTERIOR in France holds any sway in France. Or maybe the Communist Party in Russia, post 1990 has lots of sway on Russia's policy decisions?

-TheE-
>>>

Are you kidding me?
The Communist Party still has a tremendous amount of pull in Russia.

A local state senator in NJ who lost a bid to become governor is a family friend of my parents, and I can tell you, despite not even having won an election for governor, let alone a position like Minister of the Interior, he has a tremendous amount of pull both within the party as well as with many local business owners and people.

[Jazuela]

A radio announcer here in Connecticut was talking about Kerry last week. He said something I haven't tried to check out for the truth of it..

Maybe someone here might do the honors.

He said that when Kerry was running for senator, he had one opponent. The opponent died during the senate race - and won anyway, because no one wanted Kerry to win.

I'm staying out of this vote because I don't like either of them, and a vote for anyone else would only be taking a vote away from the two main candidates. I don't vote -against- people. I vote -for- people. And I just don't see anyone on the ballot who I actually want to win, who has even the remotest chance of getting the vote.

[TheEschaton]

If you replace "Kerry" with "Ashcroft" and "senator" with "governor", you'd have the correct story.

Ashcroft was running for governor of Missouri, or something like that, and his opponent, Mel Carnahan, died like, a month, before the vote. It was too late for the Democratic party to nominate anyone else, so they just ran with it. And Ashcroft lost, and Carnahan's wife took his spot as gov'r.

The conspiracy theorists amongst us would say that "They" got it right with Paul Wellstone, in killing him and his whole family, so his wife couldn't take his spot.

-TheE-

[GSTamral]

I've gotta agree here, I never heard about Kerry losing to a dead person. That was Ashcroft. He lost and Mel Carnahan's wife took office before yielding to the party's choice of Leuitenant Governor.