Interesting topic of discussion inside!

[Artha]

So I was sitting in History class today, doing my best to think about anything that wasn't history. I'm not sure how or why, but I came up with a question that should lead to an interesting discussion.

Assume there's something that costs nothing to make, and that someone would not buy anyway. Assume that they then take this object without paying for it. Nobody loses anything, because a duplicate of this object was made. Is this stealing?

(This object is an mp3, if anyone was wondering)

[Blazing247]

Yes. I do not define stealing as taking something of VALUE that belongs to another. I define stealing as taking something that is not yours and that you have no claim to; the value is not important. Who really defines value, anyhow?

In part, I can sympathize with the record companies over their lost revenues due to the .mp3 underground. However, I feel that it is THEIR fault that this happened to the magnitude it did. They price gouged their customer base. The fact that CD's still go for $15-20 a piece is an embarassment. I remember a few years ago, two two retailers were indicted for conspiring to fix the price of CD's in their stores.

If music was as easily attainable as it should be, nobody would have to steal it. Music shouldn't cost you an arm and a leg. I love Metallica, but I lost a lot of respect for them when they showed everyone it wasn't about the fans or the music, it was about the dollar. They sit back and sue their fanbase while they take baths in expensive champagne. Yes, they earned their cash, but when is enough enough?

So yes I think it's stealing, but I can see some sort of justification behind it. It is kind of hard for me to condone stealing, as my profession does not allow for any justification of this behavior, but ah well.

[Artha]

In part, I can sympathize with the record companies over their lost revenues due to the .mp3 underground.

Last month, their profits rose a good deal. This is because most people who do download music wouldn't buy it anyway.

[Blazing247]

<Last month, their profits rose a good deal. This is because most people who do download music wouldn't buy it anyway.>

Artha, you know that's not a good argument. Pointing to profitability in a given quarter isn't even a good argument. You need a full fiscal year to make any kind of statements based on their profitability, or lack thereof. Was there a rise or decline in profitability in the months post-Napster? When Napster was shut down, was there a rise in profitability?

These are important points to consider, not how much they netted in a given month taken without context. Maybe this month is the most popular month for buying CD's (warm weather...top down...good music?).

[Ravenstorm]

Theft. No question about it no matter what rationale or justification is used.

Raven

[Artha]

Downloading actually increases sales (http://www.internet-magazine.com/news/view.asp?id=3972) for popular albums (<=600,000 sales). It was just a quick search, and doesn't go into detail about how they did the study, but it's pretty interesting if it's right.

Downloading MP3's is not theft! You were thinking about theft and downloading MP3's in the same train of thought?!?! DAMN YOU! How dare you elude yourself into thinking that using a well-deserved benefit of paying for an ISP and then using your valuable time to download an MP3 could be considered theft. Theft? Theft! ROFL. god-forbid some of these celebrities whose die-hard fans honor them by downloading their shitty songs might lose a buck or two? They might be forced to live in semi-luxury, Brittney Spears, and I pitty the fool who actually downloads one of her demonic MP3s, might actually not be able to get gold-plated "call stewardess" buttons on her new Cesta Airplane.

[Artha]

I wish that picture was photoshopped better so I could show it to people and not be embarassed :(

http://www.rosswhite.com/images/riaa.jpg

[Vesi]

Anything taken without permission of the owner is theft.

Vesi


P. S. I wish you hadn't put what the item was.

[Lord Deprav]

You have brought attention t 2 different matters.

Mp3's is theft unless you have already pay your dues to the artist.

Taking something that is free is not a theft. For it to be a theft it has to have a value. Now if you can give me something besides air that doesn't cost anything, then I would be impressed.

Mp3's are music files of a musician. Owned by that musician until you pay them their value. Don't forget, even if you could bypass all the record companies and the cost of producing a actual cd, you still have them putting their time, equipment, cost of recording. Also one other big thing is the cost they pay a pattent attorney to make it officially theres. That is what makes it theft. Now if your at a club and a musician plays a song that he is making up on the spot and doesn't have it copyrighted and you record it and release it as an mp3, then they are owed nothing by law and no theft has happened.

Deprav

[Artha]

I meant more morally than by the law. The record label isn't losing anything*. The artist isn't losing anything*. You're getting an MP3 for free.

What it all boils down to is this: If someone loses nothing, and you get something of theirs, is it theft?

*This is because people will buy the CDs. Unless there's a huge marketing campaign that doesn't help sales at all, the profits from selling 25 cent CDs for 15$-20 will most likely even it out.

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by Artha]

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Artha
So I was sitting in History class today, doing my best to think about anything that wasn't history. I'm not sure how or why, but I came up with a question that should lead to an interesting discussion.

Assume there's something that costs nothing to make, and that someone would not buy anyway. Assume that they then take this object without paying for it. Nobody loses anything , because a duplicate of this object was made. Is this stealing?

(This object is an mp3, if anyone was wondering)

You were okay up until here. I don't know how true it is, but some artist claim that it is taking something by detering someone from otherwise paying for it.

That said, I've downloaded MP3's in the past.

[Blazing247]

<Taking something that is free is not a theft.>

Say your father gave you a piece of tree bark from Germany that he got from his father, who took it from a tree in Hitler's courtyard post invasion, which bears nothing but sentimental value. It's okay for me to take that from you? I wish I were your neighbor. The term stealing has nothing to do with value. It's the Judicial System that assigns such qualifiers as Grand/Petty Theft, and accompanying sentences, according to value. Stealing is taking what isn't yours.

[Edaarin]

Support iTunes. Good deal, really.

I've gotten about 50 free songs from that Pepsi giveaway. It's nothing near what I had on my computer before I had to wipe it out (stupid virus) but it's legal at least.

[Artha]

It's okay for me to take that from you?

No, but you can have an exact copy if you want.

[Blazing247]

<What it all boils down to is this: If someone loses nothing, and you get something of theirs, is it theft? >

Yes. Read up on Intellectual Property rights. The same logic can be applied in regards to Simu and character sales. Interesting, but the courts have already made their decision.

[Nakiro]

Originally posted by Edaarin
Support iTunes. Good deal, really.

I've gotten about 50 free songs from that Pepsi giveaway. It's nothing near what I had on my computer before I had to wipe it out (stupid virus) but it's legal at least.

Its only illegal if you get caught.

Performing a crime where less than 1/10,00,000 are caught? Doesn't sound like much of a threat to me.

[Blazing247]

<Support iTunes. Good deal, really.>

I would support them if not for two things. One, 99c a song is ridiculous. It's the same as buying a $15 dollar album. Two, they copyright encode their songs. Bastards.

[Artha]

Yes. Read up on Intellectual Property rights.

Oh, I know the legal decision...hence why the RIAA can sue people for some rediculous amount like $150,000 per song. I'm talking morally, though.

Man fuck the RIAA almost as much the NYPD. I don't know if these bastards are responsible for this, but I'd like to think so:

So I'm using my ever popular spy-ware/adware infested P2P sharer. And I decide to download a song of a famous "artist." After said download, I begin blastin' the tunes. About 10 seconds into the song, my ears are assaulted by what appears to be a chipmunk or some other sort of animal in heat, it sounds something like, "EEEEEEE-Hrbl-schrEEE-EEE." What happened to the rest of my song?

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Blazing247
<What it all boils down to is this: If someone loses nothing, and you get something of theirs, is it theft? >

Yes. Read up on Intellectual Property rights. The same logic can be applied in regards to Simu and character sales. Interesting, but the courts have already made their decision.

In a sense though, the characters are liscensed to a person. A way to not even go into a law suit would be if you wanted to rid a character then just lease it out. Happens all the time in modern bussiness. There is nothing that says in their contract with you that you cannot legally lease out underneathe them. Although they can take away your account for no reason. I would keep it on the downlow.

Deprav

[Edaarin]

Do you really want to take that chance, knowing they target college students in their lawsuit? They're not going to make you pay $150k a song (obviously), but you WILL have to settle for thousands, maybe up to $20k.

EDIT: I also used to think like that Blazing247 (that $0.99 a song is like $15 an album), but I realized that I have maybe 3 albums where there are more than 6 songs I like.

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by Edaarin]

[Artha]

They're not going to make you pay $150k a song (obviously), but you WILL have to settle for thousands, maybe up to $20k.

I'm fairly sure you can settle by just clearing the songs out of your computer and promising never to do it again. Of course, they check over the internet, so all you really have to do is move the songs in MP3 format to a CD, then back to the computer. Or turn off sharing.

[Edaarin]

Meh...I read somewhere (pretty sure it was CNN.com) that four of the college students that were sued last year all had to settle for like around $10k-$17k

EDIT: Link to a CNET article on it.

http://news.com.com/2100-1027-5161209.html

[Edited on 4-23-2004 by Edaarin]

[i remember halloween]

at the same time, who hasn't been tricked into buy something that ended up sucking compared to what it was sold as? fuck these companies. they'd be stealing from you just as quickly if they could.

[DeV]

Morally I think people should be able to swap files over the net free and not have to worry about getting sued. Legally, it 's wrong because it's the artists' way of life even though half of the ones complaining are millionaires and the companies aren't losing any major sales.

Its right and its wrong.

[Latrinsorm]

Is taking a picture of the Mona Lisa theft? I think that's what the original question is about. The copying part of it. (The answer is no, morally speaking, but use a flash and the museum spinsters will break your thumbs.)

[Satira]

I think we should be able to download all the music we want. I don't give a crap if some of these music artists can't have chrome on their cars and have to give up their house in LA. They're overpaid as it is.

Also, while this has nothing to do with the MP3 deal, and more to do with the hypothetical situation of if something costs nothing blah blah blah...what if you go into a big field that has hundreds of flowers in it and you pick one or two. Is that stealing from whoever owns that land or even just stealing from the land in general? I know some of you have done this before, that's why I'm bringing it up.

[Artha]

because it's the artists' way of life

Artists make shit to nothing on CDs, most of that goes to the record companies. It's the tours where they make their money at, and no MP3 can come close to that experience.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
I don't give a crap if some of these music artists can't have chrome on their cars and have to give up their house in LA. They're overpaid as it is. Not all musicians are overpaid.

<-- Made $40 so far.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I feel completely justified in downloading MP3s for a few reasons. One, I love the experience of buying CDs. Except for those times when you buy a horrible one. I treat MP3s as a test. If a few songs are good, I'll definately go out and buy a CD. But why should I have to blow my money just to find out if a song is any good or not? If an artist was confident enough in their music and their album that they are selling, they wouldn't be so against free downloading.

How about free listening? Artists should set up on their web sites so you can listen to all the tracks on their album, more than 30 second clips which is the norm, that aren't downloadable.

There are people that openly admit that they're stealing, and wouldn't buy the CD regardless of how much they like the music. Those are the people I feel are hurting the industry. My CD collection speaks for itself, I'm no thief.

[TheEschaton]

Mp3's are music files of a musician. Owned by that musician until you pay them their value. Don't forget, even if you could bypass all the record companies and the cost of producing a actual cd, you still have them putting their time, equipment, cost of recording.

Music should be about the music, not the making of money. I think that's where the industry went wrong in the first place, producing stupid shit like BRitney, Limp Bizkit, and Kid Rock.

Secondly, it is stealing. However, if an artist deems it okay, the record company should have no legal say in the matter, because the intellectual property is that of the artist.

Lastly, about the copyright issue with our own characters in GS. Technically, those are our intellectual property, even though it exists in a medium owned by someone else. I remember talking to Hazed (the head of Federation) about the fact that we could build our own planets, written as we wanted, as long as we didn't violate their TOS. She told me that once written, the planet was our intellectual property - not the company's, since we had built it and conceived it....only using their tools to make it a reality. In a way, if Simu ever decided to press the issue, I think one could make the legal argument that our characters are our own intellectual property, which has an assigned value to it, and thus, are ours to do what we please with. Which is why, I think, Simu doesn't press the issue.

-TheE-

[Hulkein]

In a lot of new CD stores you can scan the cd code under a listening station and it will upload the songs onto the device and you listen to it on headphones.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Hulkein
In a lot of new CD stores you can scan the cd code under a listening station and it will upload the songs onto the device and you listen to it on headphones.

Even if that becomes the norm -- I've never seen it -- there will always be people who never bought CDs even before free downloading started. You won't be able to change those people, and what the record company doesn't understand is that those people weren't suddenly converted away from spending money on CDs.

[Hulkein]

I'm not arguing either way, I know it's wrong to steal the music (and that's what it is for the large majority of music downloaded) and don't feel the need to debate it.

Yes, some bands want their stuff to be downloaded and that's great but let's face it, almost everyone using the p2p programs or bittorrent isn't downloading this type of music.

That being said, I do download songs illegally, I just don't try and justify it.

[Fengus]

Originally posted by Artha
Assume there's something that costs nothing to make...

(This object is an mp3, if anyone was wondering)

It costs money to make music.

[SpunGirl]

Technically yes, it is stealing. However, like most people, I buy a LOT of the CDs of songs I download.

Not only that, I spent hours in front of the radio as a kid with a blank tape in the cassette deck, waiting for my favorite songs to come on so I could press "record." This is pretty much the same thing.... but no one came to arrest me.

-K

[Blazing247]

<Music should be about the music, not the making of money. I think that's where the industry went wrong in the first place, producing stupid shit like BRitney, Limp Bizkit, and Kid Rock.>


Amazing. You and I agree on something. Somewhere along the line music became a cash cow, which is sad. When Tom Petty released his new single for free, as a special sneak preview in MP3 format ONLY, he said he dedicated it to all his loyal fans and pretty much did it to shit on RIAA and Metallica. He doesn't care if people get his music for free. He earned a lot of respect with me that day, and I don't give out my respect easily.

<About 10 seconds into the song, my ears are assaulted by what appears to be a chipmunk or some other sort of animal in heat, it sounds something like, "EEEEEEE-Hrbl-schrEEE-EEE." What happened to the rest of my song?>

That's the new copyright protection. The silly bastards actually think they can protect their music. One lesson companies need to learn: For every smart computer coder working for Microsoft or the record companies, there is a computer hacker sitting at home that can undo that copyright protection in a matter of seconds.

<Lastly, about the copyright issue with our own characters in GS. Technically, those are our intellectual property, even though it exists in a medium owned by someone else. I remember talking to Hazed (the head of Federation) about the fact that we could build our own planets, written as we wanted, as long as we didn't violate their TOS. She told me that once written, the planet was our intellectual property - not the company's, since we had built it and conceived it....only using their tools to make it a reality.>

All you need to do is look at Everquest to know that this isn't true. The court rulings went back and forth, but in the end, you don't see them sold on Ebay anymore. Furthermore, anything we do IN the game is not our property. Look at Starsnuffer- they adopted his culture of Dhe'Nar and it no longer belongs to him. When I was a GM, we were told anything we develop becomes property of that company. Same with the ALAE system.

[Fengus]

No technically about it, it is stealing. Why mince words? If I put a price tag on a pile of shit that is completely worthless and you steal it, its theft. The simple fact you are stealing it however shows that it does have value, just too much for your poor unemployed/college kid/high school below working age/etc ass.

The stuff isn't free to make, its only cheap to steal.

[peam]

http://www.downhillbattle.org/

[Nieninque]

Originally posted by Fengus
No technically about it, it is stealing. Why mince words? If I put a price tag on a pile of shit that is completely worthless and you steal it, its theft.

No...if the pile of shit is owned by someone and someone steals it, it is theft. If it is really valuable, but belongs to no-one and someone takes it, it's finders keepers

[Artha]

It costs money to make music.

Which is made back by CD sales. CDs cost at most 25 cents to make. They're then sold to retail stores for probably between 8-12 dollars. That's a giant profit, and if the album sells even sort of well, it'll pay back the studio costs.

[SpunGirl]

Between 8-12? Where are you shopping?!?! The last CD I bought was $15.99, and that was at Target for chrissakes.

-K

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by peam
http://www.downhillbattle.org/

Rock on, peam!

[Artha]

Between 8-12? Where are you shopping?!?! The last CD I bought was $15.99, and that was at Target for chrissakes.

I mean that the place that makes the CDs sells them to the retailers for that much, who then mark up the prices and sell them to normal people at a profit for them.