Looking to test possible reduction on flares

[Spooky]

After hearing from a friend that redux can help damage/crit against flares (which I didn't know was possible until now), I'm looking to do some testing with a flaring weapon and minor protection (sigil of minor protection) for HDP.

We'll see if the damage padding is reduced at all. If it is, then most likely crit padding does help against flares. After seeing this hit and a few others, I think it may. Severe smiting is very powerful, this didn't even stun me.

I'm in shattered so will need some help setting this up.

All these hits were with major protection . I don't see why it should not help. It's supopsed to reduce crits, I assume all then?

[Roll result: 102 (open d100: 75)]
Katze delivers a quick punch to your lower back!
...3 damage!
You are stunned!
Roundtime: 3 sec.

** As the blow lands, the feras falchion unleashes a severe smiting of lightning! **

... 20 points of damage!
Heavy shock to left hand. Fingers go numb.

>Tillmen's hands glow with power as he summons elemental energy to his command...
>Tillmen gestures at you.
CS: +487 - TD: +255 + CvA: -21 + d100: +85 - -5 == +301
Warding failed!
Your claidhmore is struck with Tillmen's cast.
>A burst of flame leaps from a claidhmore in your right hand.
... 45 points of damage!
Unbelievable heat melts your hand down to the wrist.

>The flames surrounding you flare up violently...
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to abdomen. Feels painful.

>A burst of flame leaps from a claidhmore in your right hand.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty burns to right leg. Gonna need lots of butter.

>Tillmen comes out of hiding.
Tillmen's hands glow with power as he summons elemental energy to his command...
>Tillmen gestures at you.
A swirling whirlwind drifts into the area, moving slowly towards you.

>The flames surrounding you flare up violently...
... 3 points of damage!
Minor burns to right arm. That hurts a bit.


>A swirling whirlwind grows more violent, the sounds of its winds rising to deafening heights as they swirl around you.
>A burst of flame leaps from a claidhmore in your right hand.
... 30 points of damage!
Flames cook your chest. Feels about medium well.
You feel your extra strength departing.
The light blue glow leaves you.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
The faint blue glow fades from around your hands.
The shimmering aura fades from around you.
Your heightened awareness of your own vulnerabilities fades away.
Your heightened attunement to the flows of mana begins to fade.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
The pleasantly warm sensation fades as your heartbeat begins to return to normal.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

[Danical]

Crit padding absolutely affects crit ranks from flares.

I ran an analysis of a few thousand casts of 1030 and flares from my sonic weapon (impact/vibe/earth).

Triton Combatants, which have no crit padding, have a distribution unlike grimswarm, which have assloads of padding. The crit ranks from grimswarm were all pushed down to nothing over rank 4 (limited sample 67) for sonic flares, and the outcome needed to generate the same crit rank with 1030 was significantly higher for grimswarm.

EDIT: I'll probably formalize the output over the holidays.

[Spooky]

Crit padding absolutely affects crit ranks from flares.

I ran an analysis of a few thousand casts of 1030 and flares from my sonic weapon (impact/vibe/earth).

Triton Combatants, which have no crit padding, have a distribution unlike grimswarm, which have assloads of padding. The crit ranks from grimswarm were all pushed down to nothing over rank 4 (limited sample 67) for sonic flares, and the outcome needed to generate the same crit rank with 1030 was significantly higher for grimswarm.

EDIT: I'll probably formalize the output over the holidays.

Are you sure grimswarm have padding? I don't think so. Although the giants may.

At any rate, I'll go ahead and test this. I wonder if my redux will hurt the results..as i've heard redux can also reduce the crit on flares.

[Danical]

Are you sure grimswarm have padding? I don't think so. Although the giants may.

At any rate, I'll go ahead and test this. I wonder if my redux will hurt the results..as i've heard redux can also reduce the crit on flares.

I've never experienced redux doing this. Ever. Who's your source? Because I think they suffer from anecdotal retardation, at present.

Yes, grimswarm have shitloads of padding. Download the script I made ;calcweighting from the repository and plug in the avds/DFs into the weapon hash and remove the avds that duplicated.

EDIT: What you might be experiencing is the crit padding endowed by CON bonus.

[droit]

Triton Combatants, which have no crit padding, have a distribution unlike grimswarm, which have assloads of padding. The crit ranks from grimswarm were all pushed down to nothing over rank 4 (limited sample 67) for sonic flares, and the outcome needed to generate the same crit rank with 1030 was significantly higher for grimswarm.


I'm not so sure Grimswarm are a good comparison, Dan. When I was doing my 616 testing, I found that they have a sort of crit reduction that works differently than padding does on PCs. Take a look at this hit:



You gesture at a Grimswarm giant marauder.

Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath a Grimswarm giant marauder! Several of the thorns jab into the marauder!
... hits for 22 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Strike pierces thigh!
It is knocked to the ground!
... hits for 32 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Minor strike under the right eye, that was close!
... hits for 39 points of damage!
... 30 points of damage!
Strike through the palm!
... hits for 12 points of damage!
... 25 points of damage!
Strike to left hand breaks a fingernail!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


On virtually every other creature, the crit rank dealt is equal to the crit damage divided by 5. Grimswarm giants and orcs reduce the result by 4 crit ranks for every hit. When I did my testing on PCs wearing MCP armor, the result was very different. The crit padding actually reduced the amount of crit damage that was inflicted, but the damage/5 equation still held true. I don't have a clip of my PC testing handy, but if the above cast was on a person with a lot of crit padding, it would look like this:



You gesture at a really really padded person.

Dozens of long thorns suddenly grow out from the ground underneath a Grimswarm giant marauder! Several of the thorns jab into the marauder!
... hits for 22 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Strike pierces thigh!
It is knocked to the ground!
... hits for 32 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Minor strike under the right eye, that was close!
... hits for 39 points of damage!
... 10 points of damage!
Strike through the palm!
... hits for 12 points of damage!
... 5 points of damage!
Strike to left hand breaks a fingernail!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.


I can easily believe that Grimswarm would apply the same sort of crit reduction to weapon flares, since 616 is in essence just a series of puncture flares.

EDIT: Also of note is that grizzled/ancient versions of normal creatures benefit from this mechanic as well.

[Danical]

I think that's an oddity with 616 itself and how it handles padding.

Also, since crit padding is variable past somewhat, I imagine that obfuscates the results even more.

When I get home around 23:00 Pacific I'll be able to get more data on the level of padding via AS/DS attacks of grimswarm.

[droit]

Also, since crit padding is variable past somewhat, I imagine that obfuscates the results even more.


Yes, padding is variable, but that's even more proof that there is something else going on. The crit reduction for 616 is entirely constant: 4 ranks reduced for giants and orcs and 2 reduced for trolls, every time. Warchiefs and shamans reduce it by 6 ranks.

If it was unique to how 616 handles padding, then why was it different when tested on PCs?

[Danical]

I'd say it's a product of the code for 616 being insanely archaic and one of those, "we don't worry about how offensive spells affect players," type deal.

[droit]

Grepping my logs, I've discovered that weapon flares work exactly the same way on Grimswarm as I described for 616. Every flare does a normal amount of damage, but the crit rank is invariably reduced by 4 for giants/orcs and 2 for trolls.

** As you hit, your arrow flares with a burst of fire! **
... 30 points of damage!
Burst of flames to chest toasts skin nicely. (rank 2)
The scintillating red light surrounding the arrow fades some.
The wooden arrow sticks in a Grimswarm giant sorcerer's left hand!

[Danical]

NEW PLAN!

I'm going to drink heavily tonight then examine flares to other crit padding creatures. What we suspect, currently, is that for grimswarm that every 5 points of padding reduces the resultant crit rank by 1. I've charted some grimswarm to have upwards of 17 points of crit weighting so twenty is more than likely.

But first, drink heavily.

[Spooky]

Great guys, glad to see we can all work on this together.

I did try it with someone like 60 levels below me, but that didn't work. I think the flares do less damage depending on level. I invited my like level friend to come, but he never did.

[Fallen]

Totally anecdotal, but I was zapped by a mote the other day in my padded brig. I don't think some spells/maneuvers are effected by padding at all.

[phantasm]

The black void has sucked all air out of the area!

Air is sucked away from you!
... 25 points of damage!
Decompression causes skull to crack, blood comes from ears and nose in a spurt!
You are stunned for 10 rounds!


So for something like this, the padding on my armor lowered the critical that I received to Rank 5?

My armor has ~13 points of crit padding.

Without the padding I would have received a level 7 crit?

Decompression liquifies what little brain you had!

[Warriorbird]

It can effect flares. It doesn't effect ALL flares.

[Fallen]

Krakiipedia doesn't show this as a lightning crit or a fire crit. Anyone know what type of damage that is?



You leap to the side as you try to avoid the effulgent volley!
The electrical charge is drawn to your elven battle armor!
You stumble as you try to avoid a sparkling mote, falling to ground just as it hits you with a powerful jolt!
... 80 points of damage!
Powerful blast sends most of you up in smoke

[Spooky]

Try electric?

[Riltus]

Krakiipedia doesn't show this as a lightning crit or a fire crit. Anyone know what type of damage that is?

[/COLOR][/FONT]

It's a lightning based critical that won't be in the table. There are several of these that do nervous system damage. Most of them from what I've seen are fatal but not all.

Here's some other messaging:

1. Electric blast goes right to the heart! Fibrillation can be fun. (F)(N3)
2. Electrical charge toasts foe! You get a sharp whiff of burning hair. (F)(N3)
3. Massive shock totally burns out the nervous system. Nothing works anymore. (F)(N3) 70 dmg
4. Powerful blast reduces the [Target] to a smoldering pile of ash! (F)(N3) 50 dmg
5. Electric shock causes a strong enough convulsion to snap the [Target]'s neck. (F)(R3 neck)(N3) 60 dmg
6. Electric blast goes right to the heart! You'll miss that steady beat. (F)30 dmg
7. Heavy shock sends you to the ground with convulsions! 20 dmg 7 round stun

You stumble as you try to avoid a sparkling mote, falling to ground just as it hits you with a powerful jolt!
... 80 points of damage!
Powerful blast sends most of you up in smoke

Mark

[Danical]

Maybe it's a good thing to remember, but GS is a game that's over twenty years in the making by GMs writing scripts with a horrendously bad scripting language (GSL).

Just saying.

[Spooky]

Well, judging from the hits, it seems obvious at least DAMAGE padding can help from the effects from spellburst. These hits all with HDP. can someone confirm? I assume then crit does the same?
Your breathing becomes more shallow.
... 5 points of damage!
Dazzling arc of energy traces blackened path across your chest!
You are stunned for 1 round!
The powerful look leaves you.
... 1 point of damage!
Light shock to left eye. Bet that stung.
The deep blue glow leaves you.
Deep blue motes swirl away from you and fade.
... 1 point of damage!
Heavy spark to chest. Bet that hurts.
The silvery luminescence fades from around you.
... 20 points of damage!
Electric blast goes right to the heart! You'll miss that steady beat.
The light blue glow leaves you.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
The faint blue glow fades from around your hands.
The shimmering aura fades from around you.
You notice your blood flow go back to normal.
You lose your extra internal fortitude.
Your heightened awareness of your own defensive weaknesses fades away.
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
You feel your extra strength departing.
Your mind and body begin to relax after that period of intense focus.
Your heightened attunement to the flows of mana begins to fade.
The pleasantly warm sensation fades as your heartbeat begins to return to normal.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

>You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
Your breathing becomes more shallow.
... 1 point of damage!
Chilly blast to the chest causes heart to skip a beat.
The powerful look leaves you.
... 1 point of damage!
Stubs one of the fingers on your left hand.
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
... 5 points of damage!
You falter as a chill blast of air strikes your left leg!
You are stunned for 1 round!
The dim aura fades from around you.
... 1 point of damage!
Minor burns to left leg. That hurts a bit.
>Your heightened awareness of your own defensive weaknesses fades away.

>You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
... 1 point of damage!
Heavy spark to abdomen. Bet that hurts.
The dim aura fades from around you.
... 1 point of damage!
Electric shot shoots pain along your back and legs.
You are stunned for 2 rounds!
The glowing specks of energy surrounding you suddenly shoot off in all directions, then quickly fade away.
... 1 point of damage!
Heavy spark to back. Bet that hurts.

These hits HDP + SWCP (GoS)

[Spooky]

This is with exceptional crit padding (SWCP + HCP):

You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
The brilliant luminescence fades from around you.
... 20 points of damage!
Nasty jolt to chest causes heart to skip a beat!
You are stunned for 3 rounds!
You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
... 5 points of damage!
Minor burns to chest. That hurts a bit.
>
[bigshot]>stance defensive
You are still stunned.

[Spooky]

You suddenly feel the essence surrounding you shift and writhe chaotically!
You feel your extra strength departing.
... 1 point of damage!
Strike glances off your chest.
The dim aura fades from around you.
... 10 points of damage!
Heavy shock sends you to the ground with convulsions!
You are knocked to the ground!
You are stunned for 7 rounds!
The bright luminescence fades from around you.
... 1 point of damage!
Blow to your back connects lightly.
You notice your blood flow go back to normal.
... 1 point of damage!
Light burns to your leg.

HDP (+SWCP)

[Nuc]

NEW PLAN!

I'm going to drink heavily tonight then examine flares to other crit padding creatures. What we suspect, currently, is that for grimswarm that every 5 points of padding reduces the resultant crit rank by 1. I've charted some grimswarm to have upwards of 17 points of crit weighting so twenty is more than likely.

But first, drink heavily.

If only alcohol made everything this easy.

[Overlordz]

Severe smiting is very powerful, this didn't even stun me.


The cman had already stunned you, so the flare didn't have a chance to.

[IorakeWarhammer]

Rereland post some of the spike crits in here, or link them.