Retraining advice. Different paths to combat superiority in GSIV.

[Terzl]

Hey guys,

I've decided to resurrect Terzl from a ten year long sleep. Half the fun of the game has always been learning the intricacies of the mechanics as you progress, but I've been gone so long that a lot of the fundamentals have changed (DFRedux, Spellburst, Ranged Weapons, Combat Maneuvers, etc.) and I have limited time to make major "adjustments" to both statistics and training. I'm looking for some sound advice.

Terzl was a very carefully planned E-Wave casting Half-Elf Rogue who reached Level 40. My new goal with his retrain is simple: maximum combat ability at the expense of ancillary skills and spells.

I need your help to avoid major mistakes with this transition. If I "untrain" in spells/locks, I'm going to have a ton of training points available, and I'd love to hear your advice and opinions about potential paths to maximizing combat ability. There are new skills (read: Combat Maneuvers/Arcane Symbols) that are completely foreign to me and the following questions are swirling around in my mind: Did Redux kill the idea of a magical Rogue? Is a ranged ambusher potent and the OHE ambusher a thing of the past? Are heavier armors advantageous at near-cap levels, etc.

If you had a blank slate at 40, given today's mechanics, what are the different training options for a powerful combat-centric Rogue looking to ambush his way to the cap?

Here are my statistics with proposed changes to maximize at 100. (Thanks to GS Stat Cruncher for the help.)

Stats at Level 40 Change

Constitution (CON) : 73 +10
Dexterity (DEX) : 100 -30
Discipline (DIS) : 81 +7
Logic (LOG) : 67 +10
Intuition (INT) : 70 +4
Strength (STR) : 100 -21
Agility (AGL) : 100 -33
Influence (INF) : 52 +25
Wisdom (WIS) : 66 +20
Aura (AUR) : 79 +10
Bonus Skill Name
-----------------------
58 Armor Use
164 Shield Use
130 Combat Maneuvers
184 Edged Weapons
66 Brawling
173 Ambush
114 Physical Fitness
184 Dodging
58 Arcane Symbols
10 Magic Item Use
70 Harness Power
10 Elemental Mana Control
10 Spirit Mana Control
40 Survival
141 Disarming Traps
145 Picking Locks
152 Stalking and Hiding
149 Perception
82 Climbing
78 Swimming
40 First Aid
40 Trading
164 Pickpocketing


Circle of Magic: Minor Spirit (2 total ranks)
lv Num Code Name
-- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------
1 0101 swarding1 Spirit Warding I
2 0102 sbarrier Spirit Barrier

Circle of Magic: Minor Elemental (11 total ranks)
lv Num Code Name
-- ---- ---------- ----------------------------------
1 0401 elemdef1 Elemental Defense I
2 0402 presence Presence
3 0403 pkenhance Lock Pick Enhancement
4 0404 dsenhance Disarm Enhancement
5 0405 elemdetect Elemental Detection
6 0406 elemdef2 Elemental Defense II
7 0407 unlock Unlock
8 0408 disarm Disarm
9 0409 elemblast Elemental Blast
10 0410 elemwave Elemental Wave
11 0411 elemblade Elemental Blade


I know these topics have been picked over a hundred times and thank you guys for your patience and help. Hope to see you in the game!

Terzl

[Lord Orbstar]

There is nothing wrong with a spell using rogue. You will want to relook at those skills and maybe drop the MnE until you have 425.

58 Armor Use KEEP WORKING TOWARD PLATE
164 Shield Use 2X, REMEMBER TO NOT USE HUGE SHIELDS OR IT INTERFERES WITH DODGE
130 Combat Maneuvers 2X
184 Edged Weapons 2X
66 Brawling ARE YOU VOLN? GET RID OF.
173 Ambush 2X
114 Physical Fitness
184 Dodging 2X OR MORE
58 Arcane Symbols
10 Magic Item Use FOR WHAT?
70 Harness Power
10 Elemental Mana Control MAYBE MORE IF YOU MANA SHARE
10 Spirit Mana Control GET RID OF THIS
40 Survival GET RID OF THIS
141 Disarming Traps 2X THIS
145 Picking Locks 2X THIS
152 Stalking and Hiding 2X THIS OR 3X IF U CAN
149 Perception 2X THIS
82 Climbing DROP TO 40 RANKS
78 Swimming YOU MAY WANT 40-50 RANKS AT CAP
40 First Aid GET RID OF IT
40 Trading GET RID OF IT
164 Pickpocketing YOUR CHOICE. 1X MAYBE...

[Lord Orbstar]

If you want to go ranged, you will have better TPs to be a magical rogue. OHE is still viable and fun. Hell, Two weapons are fun too. It is all fun.

If you go ranged magical, you may consider open ambushing and dropping Stalk and Hide. Just get into plate armor...

[Terzl]

Orbstar,

Thank you very much for the info. This is exactly the conversation I'd like to have. To be honest, I thought the idea of a casting rogue with no Redux and lighter armor (wasn't even thinking plate) was simply not a potent and viable combination with the new mechanics. I didn't think he could make it to the rift and that's why I was thinking of going back to pure OHE/Plate and making him a little more square.

I was under the assumption that AS/DS did not matter as much at higher levels anymore - thereby reducing the effectiveness of 425/430 (or 117)...

Two questions:
Why the 2x Pick/Disarm - just to do your own boxes?
If I stayed magical - thoughts on going MnE to 425 or MnS to 117?

Hmm.. anyone else weigh in?
Terzl

[prance1520]

I'm no rogue expert, but I can give you my observations in OTF as a ranged rogue in OTF.

As an open aimer in plate in OTF, I was never worried about an actual melee attack (only 4 spells for picking, so square redux). But at least with OTF, I find myself dying more often than I feel I should because of low self TD and having low enough offensive DS to give crystal weapon's a chance to flare. If you always have friends with spells or silly good gear, this isn't a problem.

Without relying on other characters, I find a sniper to be much easier. I barely get pulled out, and can vanish when I do. I rarely worry about TD or offensive DS because I just don't get attacked much.

In either case as ranged, AS is rarely a problem. I one shot eye crit at least 60% of the time, if not more.

I know very little about other play styles than ranged and don't mess with the rift, so hopefully some others will chime in with some info around those.

[Lord Orbstar]

The 2x is for your own boxes and to get a little EXP while in town. You can also continue to work on Lock Mastery if you desire.

It is even an idea to 0x lockpick, and just go with traps. You can disarm traps then pop your boxes safely or wedge the enruned ones open.

If you skin creatures, you may consider keeping survival, but I personally never skin and could care less.

and someone gave me negative rep for offering my advice. That made baby Jesus cry when they said "your dumb"...

[Terzl]

I've been looking over the spell changes, and it looks like 425 isn't as strong as it used to be. Let's say I do stick with spells, and forgo Redux..

As an offensive strategy, what if I trained MnS to 117, dropped all ancillary skills.

Then, decide on one of two major defensive strategies:

Lighter armor and 3x dodge..
Heavy armor and 3x hiding...

Do you think it would be possible? Or is this just not viable to get to the Rift/OTF w/out Redux...

[Gan]

I'm no rogue expert, but I can give you my observations in OTF as a ranged rogue in OTF.

As an open aimer in plate in OTF, I was never worried about an actual melee attack (only 4 spells for picking, so square redux). But at least with OTF, I find myself dying more often than I feel I should because of low self TD and having low enough offensive DS to give crystal weapon's a chance to flare. If you always have friends with spells or silly good gear, this isn't a problem.

Without relying on other characters, I find a sniper to be much easier. I barely get pulled out, and can vanish when I do. I rarely worry about TD or offensive DS because I just don't get attacked much.

In either case as ranged, AS is rarely a problem. I one shot eye crit at least 60% of the time, if not more.

I know very little about other play styles than ranged and don't mess with the rift, so hopefully some others will chime in with some info around those.

Having an archer rogue that is OTF level, this is exactly my experience and subsequent methodology.

[Lord Orbstar]

You want 425 over the MnS

[Terzl]

Ok,
Thank you for the great advice and options. I appreciate it.

Given all this, I think I've decided to go OHE/Shield ambusher in plate and MnE to 425.
I'd like to remain hidden as a main defense so I'm thinking of overtraining in hiding...

So I'm thinking:

3x Hide
2x Shield
2x Edged
1.5x Armor (to Plate)...
1.5x CM
...
2x Dodge

1x MnE - every other level or so until 425.

I'm even considering dropping dodge completely since I'll be wearing heavy armors and just on the overtraining in hiding?

Thoughts?
Terzl

[LeDru]

Keep your dodge and stop at Metal breastplate, the cva is a huge advantage. As a ohe rogue in hunting otf in MPB, i still dodge a considerable amount of the time with 2x dodge. You'll find it harder to hide against some capped creatures than to dodge them. And don't forget to pick up your armor skill from all those points getting to plate.

[Terzl]

Wanted to thank everyone for their input, both through this thread and via e-mail. I've officially retrained and converted into GSIV and deciding on a OHE/board build.

After too much thinking/tinkering/spreadsheeting and not enough playing:

I've fixstat'd to a much more optimized placement:

Gender: Male Age: 68 Expr: 1741841 Level: 40
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)
Constitution (CON): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)
Dexterity (DEX): 80 (20) ... 80 (20)
Agility (AGI): 77 (23) ... 77 (23)
Discipline (DIS): 87 (13) ... 87 (13)
Aura (AUR): 88 (19) ... 88 (19)
Logic (LOG): 78 (14) ... 78 (14)
Intuition (INT): 78 (14) ... 78 (14)
Wisdom (WIS): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Influence (INF): 59 (9) ... 59 (9)
Mana: 38 Silver: 826

Officially gave up on extensive spells. Dropped MnE from 413 to 401. This free'd up tons of points for a 3x Dodge, 2.5x Hide, 1.5xPT, 2x Amb, 1x CM...

At level 40:
Armor Use..........................| 180 80
Shield Use.........................| 141 41
Combat Maneuvers...................| 142 42
Edged Weapons......................| 184 84
Ambush.............................| 182 82
Physical Fitness...................| 160 60
Dodging............................| 220 120
Harness Power......................| 50 10
Stalking and Hiding................| 201 101
Climbing...........................| 45 9
Swimming...........................| 45 9

And decided on the following CMAN:

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Shadow Mastery smastery 4
Combat Mobility mobility 2
Vanish vanish 1

Going to spend some time playing around with daggers and axes from hiding, while I learn how to use these CMANs, work towards more Vanish and rank 5 smastery.

If anyone has any last tweaks or anything glaring I'm missing - would love to hear it. Still have time left in the migration period.

Thanks again guys, and hope to see you in the game.

[kookiegod]

I'm a big fan or rogue archers...

This is mine after retraining recently. I still haven't figured what to spend the other points on.

(at level 46), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:

Armor Use..........................| 180 80 = mbp
Combat Maneuvers...................| 148 48 = 1x
Ranged Weapons.....................| 196 96
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 50 10 = FoF pushdown
Physical Fitness...................| 148 48 = 1x, want to 2x it
Dodging............................| 244 144 = 3x
Arcane Symbols.....................| 120 30 = AS/MIU/HP for magical toys

Magic Item Use.....................| 120 30
Harness Power......................| 120 30
Disarming Traps....................| 196 96 = 2x
Picking Locks......................| 196 96 = 2x
Perception.........................| 196 96 = 2x
Climbing...........................| 105 25
Training Points: 223 Phy 17 Mnt

CoL master

Skill name Mnemonic Ranks
Specialization I wspec1 5
Combat Mobility mobility 1
Surge of Strength surge 3


You are Guild Master of the Rogue Guild.

You are a Master of Sweep.
You have 58 ranks in the Stun Maneuvers skill.
You are a Master of Cheap Shot.
You have 15 ranks in the Rogue Gambits skill.

[LeDru]

If you're going to stay ohe, I'd suggest surge and wspec as cmans as you go along. every little bit helps.

[DoctorUnne]

In my mind there are two major types of combat rogues (excluding archers): light armor and heavy armor. Each has major advantages and some drawbacks. I'll list them as I see them, and based on what you like better you can go with that.

Light Armor
Adv: Hard to hit, can cast spells, very good DS, best hiders, typically fast
Disadv: Poor vs. warding spells, if you do get hit you're in trouble
Suggested training: 3x dodge, 3x hide, spells up to 425/120, shadow mastery, vanish, evade mastery, divert, fast weapons (daggers)

Heavy Armor
Adv: Best vs. warding spells, can still get good DS and can usually survive situations light armor can't. More versatile in what you can hunt
Disadv: Vulnerable to maneuvers, need to pause to eat herbs sometimes when you get hit, can't cast in field
Suggested training: 3x dodge, 3x hide (note you can still have great DS and be a great hider in plate, you just won't get the benefits of armor evasion/stealth and evade mastery that you would in light armor), MOC, heavy weapon, 2x PF, 2x CM, surge of strength

There are hybrids which combine some of both but in my opinion the two builds work against each other, e.g. if you go heavy armor and train a lot in spells you're losing some of your redux and can't cast in the field reliably, so why not go light armor?

I'll also give some perspective on the rift since that's the only place I hunt (assuming you mean endgame). You're going to be hunting exclusively on 4 and in the scatter. The scatter is pretty tough no matter how you're built if you hunt solo, until you get well past cap. On plane 4, both crawlers and cerebralites can be easily killed in one ambush with a heavy weapon. Crusaders are nearly impossible to kill unless you are TWC and have a lot of MOC. In terms of defense, crawler burrows are the primary cause of death and they are better dealt with in light armor, but I feel like crusaders would be very dangerous in light armor with their haste and mstrike.

In the scatter, siphons are easy one hit ambushes, fetish masters are easily critted but they have super ridiculous DS and you will probably not be able to hunt them solo as a rogue unless you can take your AS up to 550-575 which is tough to do in the rift. You need 425 or a lot of enhancives and a 7x-10x weapon. Destroyers are like crusaders on steroids and require the same tactics. And I haven't bothered hunting liches on my own yet. Here are my skills for reference.

Shize (at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Two Weapon Combat..................| 308 208
Armor Use..........................| 190 90
Combat Maneuvers...................| 262 162
Edged Weapons......................| 325 225
Thrown Weapons.....................| 5 1
Brawling...........................| 92 20
Ambush.............................| 302 202
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 201 101
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Dodging............................| 302 202
Magic Item Use.....................| 90 20
Harness Power......................| 105 25
Spirit Mana Control................| 102 24
Survival...........................| 201 101
Stalking and Hiding................| 302 202
Perception.........................| 302 202
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 120 30
First Aid..........................| 201 101
Training Points: 0 Phy 25 Mnt (556 Mnt converted to Phy)

[prance1520]

less dodge because i really don't care about being hit


If you ever decide to hunt OTF with the same mantra, learn to enjoy this...

An Ithzir scout swings a gleaming crystal-edged broadsword at you!
AS: +418 vs DS: +353 with AvD: +18 + d100 roll: +97 = +180
... and hits for 7 points of damage!
Love tap upside your head!

** An Ithzir scout's crystal-edged broadsword emits a searing bolt of lightning! **

... 30 points of damage!
Electric blast goes right to the heart! You'll miss that steady beat.

It seems you have died, my friend. Although you cannot do anything, you are keenly aware of what is going on around you...

[top shottah]

yo Jaedawg


Aren't you fucking banned?