On Sorcerer Lores and their Hybrid Status

[Fallen]

WARNING: Nothing official here. This is an X-post of mine from the Officials.

Sorcerers are the only profession which have their own lores. While this at first seems like a novel advantage to the class, it in actuality is a disadvantage. Sorcerer lores apply ONLY to the sorcerer circle. Training in Demonology or Necromancy will never aid us in our efforts with Minor Elemental or Minor Spiritual spell casting. Further, points spent on sorcerer lores are points that are not available to be spent on other forms of lore, of which we as sorcerers have the most in which to train.

This lack of a bleeding over of our primary lores is a penalty that is *unique* to the sorcerer profession. Even when considering the Empath, the other supposed hybrid, we see that their Mental Lores will bleed into Minor and Major Mental spells. While they may not have access to these spells, which is arguably an advantage in that they keep Major Spiritual, any points spent on those lores will benefit their use of the spells in those circles. Demonology and Necromancy, however, will never effect the Minor or Major circles of Elemental and Spiritual Magic. This is very much a disadvantage. You can chalk it up to a "Hybrid Penalty", but it is one we as sorcerers face alone.

Next, we look at lore training beyond Sorcerer lores. Sorcerers have 3 different types of lores to train which influence our spells: 4 Elemental, 2 Sorcerer, and 2 Spiritual (I do not count Religion). This brings us to a total of 8 lores which influence our spells, the highest of any profession. While again, this may SOUND like an advantage, it is not. Why? Because aside from 1 spell (whose lore-based contributions have largely proven dubious), these lores do NOT influence our primary circle. Training in Summoning or Blessings will never aid us in our 700 circle usage. The Elemental lore review *WILL NOT* include any alterations to sorcerer spells. The Spiritual lore review *DID NOT* include any alterations to sorcerer spells. This is a disadvantage we face alone.

Further, for the Empath, our twin hybrid profession, training in their Spiritual lores counts across both a minor AND a major circle. Not mentioning the significant advantage of being a hybrid and being allowed a Major Circle, this lore-based advantage is one that MUST be factored in when measuring the state of sorcerer lore training. Our secondary lore training counts for HALF of the Major circles of both Elemental and Spiritual magic. Again, a penalty that we as 1 of 2 hybrids face alone.

Finally, we come to an issue somewhat related to the problem of lore implementation, which is the sorcerer's spell access to 2 minor circles. We have been shown time and again that these circles are the least powerful of all spheres. Why? Because so many have access to them ... they must be balanced accordingly. That's all well and good, but as a PURE, we do not have access to a Major circle to make up for this need to keep Minor circle power levels in check. This again could be chalked up to the "Hybrid Penalty" but as we all know, our twin hybrid profession is KEEPING the Major Spiritual Circle. Two spheres of our magic are balanced around balancing for EVERY OTHER profession. This is an imbalance that we as sorcerers face alone.

----
Having made these points, we come to the crux of the matter: How to fix these inequities. Get rid of sorcerer lores? Hardly. This will never be done for a great many reasons. Allowing us to choose access to either Major Spiritual or Major Elemental at level 0? Again, this will never be done for balance reasons. Asking for major modifications to our profession's access to spell circles, or removal of sorcerer lores is fruitless. Even if justified, they will simply never take place. Instead, I can think of 2 viable solutions:

1. Allow Demonology and Necromancy lore ranks to count as partial Elemental and Spiritual lore ranks. Justify it however you wish...that Demonology is really an "evil" version of elemental magic, and Necromancy an "evil" spiritualism, you allow for X (5, 10, 20, etc) amount of sorcerer lores to count for 1 Spiritual or Elemental lore. This is an inelegant solution due to the fact that there are 4 elemental lores, and 3 spiritual lores to our 2 sorcerer lores. There would be an issue of exchange. The reverse of this situation, allowing Elemental and Spiritual lores to count as partial Sorcerer lores, makes more sense in terms of equal conversions (10 of any E lore is 1 demonology, etc), but still suffers from flaws of exchange.

2. Allow our elemental and spiritual lore training to count on a 1 to 1 basis with the two Major Circles. While this would not eliminate the problem of either being stuck with 2 minor circles, OR having to train in lores that do not influence any other spell circle besides the 700's, it would allow us to better make use of the Major Circle Spells that are commonly available to other professions. Keep in mind that for EVERYONE ELSE, even if they DON'T know a minor circle, their lore training still counts on a 1 to 1 basis. This is an advantage to EVERYONE ELSE *but* sorcerers. Allowing us in turn to apply our secondary lore training to these two circles would go a great ways to correcting that imbalance.

While I think option 2 is the best and most fair solution, I think it has a 0% chance of happening. Why? Who knows, but I imagine the Cleric, Empath, and Wizard gurus will readily supply their reasoning. Instead, why not STOP Nickel and Diming us for every INCH of our own profession's lores and their balance. Allow us to have an edge over other professions in terms of lore-based returns, considering the other penalties and imbalances that we currently face.

If you have read this whole argument, then you have my thanks. I look forward to reading well-reasoned responses.

[Fallen]

TLDR Version: QQ

[Tordane]

Good post. I agree with alot of what you said. If I feel up to it, I'll make some comments later tonight on officials after I had some time to think.

[Celephais]

This is as far as I could get

Sorcerers are the only profession which have their own lores. While this at first seems like a novel advantage to the class, it in actuality is a disadvantage.
Before saying "FUCK YOU", as a wizard.

I'd absolutely love to have the ability to train in more lores pre and post cap instead of having them all share the same skill pool.

... now I will continue reading your post.

[Celephais]

You're welcome. No for a well reasoned response.

Lets say they get rid of Demonology and Necromancy. Lets say they decide that Blood Burst is really Spirit summoning, Phase is Water lore, Limb Disrupt is Earth lore, Pain is religion, Cloak of Shadows is air, Torment is fire, Minor summoning is spirit summoning, and Animate dead is religion.

How do you expect to spread your training out now? Do you honestly think you'd be better off? Suddenly all that fire lore training you were doing before is helping out your torment.. awesome! No, that's bullshit. Right now you have two lores that help out your main spells, and you only have to worry about two (what's more you can 2x your lore, so you can 1x each). Wizards have four that apply to their spells. They have to spread out their lore training much worse than a sorc has to.

[StrayRogue]

I think the issue, Celephais, is that empaths, clerics and wizards are much easier to...customize via the lores. A blessing lored cleric is a different animal to a religion/summoning lored cleric. Equally so, the immo mage will hunt differently compared to an air-mage.

Sorcerers suffer from the fact that they are already overspecialized. They're dull. There is no real variety in their training and the lores reinforce this. Considering they can't really have a physical build, their only real method of having a unique path is to have different lore training. And at the moment it's pretty easy to train in both, and both equally do very little to a pre-cap sorcerer. So everyone is effectively the same.

That's great in say a World of Warcraft arena. Crap in a world where customization & uniqueness are king.

Adding more effects from different lores would make training a bit more annoying, yes. Sorcerers wouldn't be good at everything they can do (I'm sure most would moan, in fact, if additional lore requirements were added to certain spells), but it would add variety sorely lacking from the class.

An example of this is the web spell. It requires a lot of different factors to be completely "owned". This is good game design. It isn't restrictive. Anything that adds options to the players is a good thing.

[Deathravin]

We can't even get them to make fairly quick changes man. If this isn't something that fits right into the current system, it's just not going to work.

Celephais, I think you're mistaken here.
Wizards do have to choose a path. But that one path affects all 3 of their spell circles. Sorcerers choose a path and that path affects 1 circle, and even then not a whole lot. If they want to diversify, they have to spend far more TP to do so. Especially if they ever get the elemental lore review completed.

Sorcerers are supposed to be a hybrid between elemental and spiritual. But in their training, they feel more like an unspecialized class. They're built to be forced to do 3 sets of lore for rather paltry changes.

My empath trains in 1 type of lore, and that one thing it modifies all 3 of her circles. Wizard is the same deal. Cleric as well.


During this whole rush to level 100, I've had the pleasure of supervising in the training of all but 1 class (and 2 classes twice). I was always curious why my sorcerer felt the most boxed in. The sorc was always scraping for points just to get by, where the bard, empath, ranger and wizard always seemed to be swimming in extra TP they hardly knew what to do with.

[Warriorbird]

While I normally would consider mocking Fallen for his sorcerer homerism I think he actually has a definite point here.

Option 2.

[Celephais]

I think the issue, Celephais, is that empaths, clerics and wizards are much easier to...customize via the lores. A blessing lored cleric is a different animal to a religion/summoning lored cleric. Equally so, the immo mage will hunt differently compared to an air-mage.
Seriously? Air-mage? Yeah... that exists.


Sorcerers suffer from the fact that they are already overspecialized. They're dull. There is no real variety in their training and the lores reinforce this. Considering they can't really have a physical build, their only real method of having a unique path is to have different lore training. And at the moment it's pretty easy to train in both, and both equally do very little to a pre-cap sorcerer. So everyone is effectively the same.
Most professions are pigeon holed if they want to be the most effective. Sorcs have options, they might not seem as diametric as Warmage/Pure, sorcs can be pure CS based or they can try to get some spell aiming.


That's great in say a World of Warcraft arena. Crap in a world where customization & uniqueness are king.

Adding more effects from different lores would make training a bit more annoying, yes. Sorcerers wouldn't be good at everything they can do (I'm sure most would moan, in fact, if additional lore requirements were added to certain spells), but it would add variety sorely lacking from the class.

An example of this is the web spell. It requires a lot of different factors to be completely "owned". This is good game design. It isn't restrictive. Anything that adds options to the players is a good thing.
I agree that adding lores to spells is a good thing to allow for some nice customization, but it sounds like you want some more sorcerer lores, whereas Fallen wants no "sorcerer" lores, he wants elemental/spiritual to improve sorcerer spells, and from a design perspective that makes a lot more sense (in that sorcerer spells are supposed to be a combination of spiritual and elemental), but I just see that causing most sorcerers to not be able to make the most of all their spells.

Take stone fist for example. Most wizards never use this spell, it's absolutely useless to them.

[Deathravin]

Personally I feel a 3rd option is the most fair.

Every Spiritual lore rank counts toward Necromancy
Every Elemental lore rank counts toward Demonology
Remove Sorcerer lores.

[Celephais]

Personally I feel a 3rd option is the most fair.

Every Spiritual lore rank counts toward Necromancy
Every Elemental lore rank counts toward Demonology
Remove Sorcerer lores.

So suddenly sorcs are able to 2x both Necro and Demonology now? No need to specialize? (your suggestion as listed would reduce the cost of 1xing both demon and necro from 0/18 to 0/14)

What about the fact that every other class has to make sacrifices when choosing lore. If a wizard goes for an all earth lore build so they can use stone fist, they sacrifice the strength of their immolation. A sorcerer that gets to train in all the elemental lores, yet still sees no discrepancy in the strength of their demonology because they diversified doesn't seem fair.

I listed an (extreme worst case) example of what it would look like if sorcerer lores got split up like empaths have to deal with, otherwise there would be no such thing as "making a choice" when it came to sorcerer lores.

[Kitsun]

Honestly, my post-cap mage, cleric and empath would love to have the lore options to juice up the different lists. I get the pains pre-cap though. Although elemental lores suck balls all over the place for the Minor Elemental list.

[Fallen]

A few points:

1. I do not advocate removing sorcerer lores. Though I mentioned it as one of several fixes, I was also quick to point out that it would definitely cause more problems that it would correct.

2. Elemental lores are garbage. Absolute garbage. I feel for you, Cel, I really do. I don't see them as being all that much better off after the lore review either. Some great ideas were put forward to correct that problem, Naos went with none of the above, and is essentially slapping a band-aid on a shit system.

3. I would never advocate a 1:1 exchange of Elemental lore or Spiritual lore to Sorcerer lore, or vice versa. My suggestions were along the lines of 10 Elemental lore to 1 Demonology rank.

I personally think the best, and least unbalancing solution is option 2. Allowing Elemental/Spiritual lore to count as full towards the Major Circles. Remember that the best benefits of those circles are based on spell ranks, NOT lores. This would stop us from picking up gobs of DS/AS/Whatever.

[Jace Solo]

Why not reduce the amount of TP's required for 1xing individual lores but double (on top of the double that currently occurs) to keep Sorcs from just 2xing in specific lores. That way they can be fully 1x in each sphere but also be able to afford 2xing in a single sphere...or make no change to the sorc lore TP costs (or perhaps a light lowering) and still make the above changes to the Elemental and Spiritual TP cost. In this way, Sorc could 3-4x lores effectively with one in each sphere and two in their primary.

Example would be (and I'm not gonna look at the sorc lore costs...so these are just hypothetical TP costs):
All Lores - 0/2 @ 1x ---> 0/8 @ 2x
OR
Sorc - 0/2 ---> 0/4
Elementals - 0/2 ---> 0/8
Spiritual - 0/2 ---> 0/8

Why wouldn't giving the Sorcs cheaper lore costs fix the problem as apposed to reworking which lores are granted in the game. If lores are half their current cost then everyone should be able to train in whatever they want to a certain point.

I could see it making a more cookie cutter type build but that's pretty much what a hybrid gets. Their able to do all things...just not as well as everyone else.

[subzero]

Most professions are pigeon holed if they want to be the most effective. Sorcs have options, they might not seem as diametric as Warmage/Pure, sorcs can be pure CS based or they can try to get some spell aiming.

As can wizards, empaths, and clerics. I don't think we're going to allow that to be called "options" when we're talking about lores. Not only is it entirely unrelated to lore implementation, but it's a common theme amongst all caster classes.


I agree that adding lores to spells is a good thing to allow for some nice customization, but it sounds like you want some more sorcerer lores, whereas Fallen wants no "sorcerer" lores, he wants elemental/spiritual to improve sorcerer spells, and from a design perspective that makes a lot more sense (in that sorcerer spells are supposed to be a combination of spiritual and elemental), but I just see that causing most sorcerers to not be able to make the most of all their spells.

Take stone fist for example. Most wizards never use this spell, it's absolutely useless to them.

That's kind of how it should be, though. The problem isn't with Stone Fist, however. It's with earth lore and that it doesn't have enough all around to make many wizards want to specialize in it. Sorcerers that don't train in necromancy lore sure don't use Animate Dead, either. Hell, most sorcerers even trained in necromancy don't bother with Animate Dead due to the spell having so many inconveniences.

We don't all have to get the most out of every spell, but sorcerers are a hybrid class and it sure would be nice to see some of the other lores have more of an impact on our spells. The problem I see is that the minor lists are just so bland that I don't know if much can be done there. Maybe some earth lore tie-in with 418, I dunno.

Sort of a similar situation with those other lores tying into the sorcerer circle. Some might be a bit of a reach, but some quick off the top of my head ideas...

Maybe something for 703 with summoning lore to increase duration or possibly cause nerve damage or mana drain.

Maybe the old idea of a defensive aspect of Phase could be triggered with a certain air lore training.

Staying with air lore, perhaps make Eye Spy automatically zip back to the caster at a certain level of proficiency.

Quake could have a boost to success or maybe additional waves (yeah, it'd be pretty close to tremors at the point, but really... they're pretty fuckin close to carbon copies anyway) with earth lore.

Maelstrom I've always thought should have bonuses from various elemental lores much in the same way (ok, let's make them better; for both spells) that Catalsyt does.

I'd really hate to add blessing lore simply due to the fact that there aren't many spells I could see it really being a fit for, but it's also probably the more logical choice for some sort of benefit to Scroll Infusion. Maybe it could increase the life of unlocked scrolls and/or runestones.

Perhaps summoning lore could lower the various thresholds for Evil Eye success.

Implosion has obvious air lore implications, but with it being powerful as it is, I doubt anything will be added to it.

I don't see any of that sort of thing being game-breaking or even necessarily spectacular, but it would add some flavor to things. Even little gimmicky things might help to make the class seem a bit more diverse than simply the sorcerer that walks around with a non-combat demon pet or the one that might, maybe, be seen hunting with an animated creature.

[Celephais]

I'll agree with you there subzero, it sounds to me like the easiest solution would be to leave things as they are, and then add some small bonuses to sorcerer spells based on elemental and spiritual lores.

[Fallen]

I'll agree with you there subzero, it sounds to me like the easiest solution would be to leave things as they are, and then add some small bonuses to sorcerer spells based on elemental and spiritual lores.

How does that address sorcerer lores Not effecting any other circles, or that sorcerers are left with two minor circles, rather than a minor and a major?

[Brad]

You know what'd be neat, if probably not overly useful for much beyond having lores apply to other spells? Let Undisease and Unpoison function as the opposite with training in some combination of Sorcerer and other lores.

Or possibly have Spirit Fog get some sort of undeath smell property that would nauseate most things but empower animated corpses.

I dunno, I have no real ideas, but the way the Sorcerer Lores are seems mighty awkward.

[subzero]

How does that address sorcerer lores Not effecting any other circles, or that sorcerers are left with two minor circles, rather than a minor and a major?

As has been stated, we're in a unique position. Other professions rely on their "generic" lores, elemental and spiritual, to work with all three of their lists. It makes sense that this is the case when you look at the spells and their respective lores.

We, on the other hand, have our own specific set of lores that really have no place affecting spells in the minor spirit or elemental circles. With that being the case, sorcerous lores need to be added to more in the 700s and slanted towards combat effectiveness or utility in order to help make up for the lack of a major circle.

Bolstered with lore training, the sorcerer circle should probably be in a position to be considered the strongest individual spell circle. Why? Cause we aren't going to get much, if anything, from the lore review and the 400 circle. There just doesn't seem to me that there's a lot that can be done there. The 100s have been done; we got web bolt. Not that web bolt is bad, but in the end, it's really only one spell that doesn't do much for sorcerery as a whole. That leaves us with two generic sets of lores that we should want to train in. I don't think there's much need to boost the power of the minor lists with these lores, but they can certainly add to the sorcerer list to a lesser degree than our own specific lores in order to help push our circle up the ladder a bit.

It is a shame that we both lack a major circle and have such a wide variety of lores to choose from, yet have such little incentive to do so. Why not solve problem 1 with issue 2?

[FNLN]

Honestly, I think the lores being divided up as Necromancy and Demonology automatically pigeonholed their effective uses, and also placed limits on future spell development as the spell flavor would have to be one or the other and not something that is a basic combination of the elemental and spiritual.

I feel the same about the Elemental Lores. Having them divided up by an actual element limits effective spell development and lore usefulness. (If you want to be an wind/water/earth/fire/heart mage, just use ATTUNE for that).

Both Sorcerer and Elemental Lore should have been designed along the lines the Spiritual and Mental lores. General concepts (Summoning, Blessing, Telepathy, etc) instead of things absolutely defined.

.

As it is right now my sorcerer doesn't train any lore, though I'm thinking of picking up SL: Summoning.

[Celephais]

How does that address sorcerer lores Not effecting any other circles, or that sorcerers are left with two minor circles, rather than a minor and a major?

Why do sorcerer lores need to effect other circles? Stop thinking of it in terms of circles, think of it in terms of spells/benefits. Then the sorcerer lores seem pretty spot on IMO. I'm not going to go through and count them, but I would be surprised if they're the worst bang for your buck anyone gets from any given lore.

[Fallen]

Why do sorcerer lores need to effect other circles? Stop thinking of it in terms of circles, think of it in terms of spells/benefits. Then the sorcerer lores seem pretty spot on IMO. I'm not going to go through and count them, but I would be surprised if they're the worst bang for your buck anyone gets from any given lore.

We will have to disagree.

[Queleri]

Why do sorcerer lores need to effect other circles? Stop thinking of it in terms of circles, think of it in terms of spells/benefits. Then the sorcerer lores seem pretty spot on IMO. I'm not going to go through and count them, but I would be surprised if they're the worst bang for your buck anyone gets from any given lore.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding here, but I have to agree with Fallen and disagree. If I train in Fire Lore on my wizard I get a benefit to 906, 908, perhaps Immolation (I don't know I don't really use Immolation). Similarly if I train in Air Lore I get a benefit to 901, 910, and 518 I believe. So that's six spells I can affect by training in just two lores, and it carries across the different spell circles.

For Sorcerer's we need to train in ~52 Ranks of Demonology which gives us a benefit to 712, and to 725 which is essentially just a gimick spell. And than any training in Necromancy adds benefits to what 701 and 730? The blood transfusion of Necromancy in my opinion while a 'neat' sorcerery affect is useless. And as if the lore cost wasn't enough for Animate in and of itself, than you need all the components and time to make supplies of crystals to use. And the only real advantage I ever have to use them is to animate PC's that are too heavy to drag through a rift back to down.

This doesn't seem crazy to you?

[Celephais]

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding here, but I have to agree with Fallen and disagree. If I train in Fire Lore on my wizard I get a benefit to 906, 908, perhaps Immolation (I don't know I don't really use Immolation). Similarly if I train in Air Lore I get a benefit to 901, 910, and 518 I believe. So that's six spells I can affect by training in just two lores, and it carries across the different spell circles.

For Sorcerer's we need to train in ~52 Ranks of Demonology which gives us a benefit to 712, and to 725 which is essentially just a gimick spell. And than any training in Necromancy adds benefits to what 701 and 730? The blood transfusion of Necromancy in my opinion while a 'neat' sorcerery affect is useless. And as if the lore cost wasn't enough for Animate in and of itself, than you need all the components and time to make supplies of crystals to use. And the only real advantage I ever have to use them is to animate PC's that are too heavy to drag through a rift back to down.

This doesn't seem crazy to you?

Hey look, I can do that too.

Sorcerers can train in demonology, which makes phase an amazing anti-encumbrance spell, make cloak of shadows into a damn good safe escape spell, improve torment, improve their super familiars, and allow them to cross realm travel.

What about Empaths? In order to be good healers they need to train in Transformation, which has no other benefits, and then they have to use that same skill pool (so if they 1x transformation they're paying 2x costs and can only 1x another skill), spread out over 3 skills to improve "only" their empath spells.

You don't have to train in the skills if you don't want to. For as much as you are touting the wizard lores as being great, to me, pre-70s there's no point in having more than just 20 or 24 air lore ranks as a pure wizard. You'd be better off with more spell ranks.

[Rathain]

Hey look, I can do that too.
What about Empaths? In order to be good healers they need to train in Transformation, which has no other benefits, and then they have to use that same skill pool (so if they 1x transformation they're paying 2x costs and can only 1x another skill), spread out over 3 skills to improve "only" their empath spells.



To improve their "empath" spells, they have the option of 2x worth of training in Summoning lore to improve their offensive skill set while sacrificing little of their healing capacities. Their choice isn't the result of limited training pathways, but limited TP's. Sorcerers seem to have the same issue. The possible potential training builds based off of lore training is greater for both empaths and sorcerers than they are for wizards or clerics because the former has more lore training options to affect their spells. It sucks for a capped wizard and cleric, and I wrote a post on the officials about this two years ago. Estild's response was despite the low ceiling for lore training for a capped cleric compared to other pures, it doesn't matter and he wont change anything because class designs weren't built around a capped character. Basically he was saying tough shit, because I should have played an empath, semi, or square if I wanted more options and training builds at post-cap.

Basically, all that Fallen is saying is that he wants more bang for his buck for his sorcerer when training in elemental, spiritual, or sorcerer lores. I kind of agree with you that their sorcerer lores affect more of their spells than Fallen gives credit for. But you kind of have to admit -- spiritual lore and elemental lores don't do as much for them as mental lore does for empaths and that's not an unfair comparison.

[Fallen]

Sorcerers can train in demonology, which makes phase an amazing anti-encumbrance spell, make cloak of shadows into a damn good safe escape spell, improve torment, improve their super familiars, and allow them to cross realm travel.

All of these spells are in one circle, as opposed to Wizard/Cleric lores effecting three, and Empaths effecting 2. That is the difference. It makes sense that Wizard and Cleric spells would have overlap across all three circles. They are Pure Elemental/Spiritual.



What about Empaths? In order to be good healers they need to train in Transformation, which has no other benefits, and then they have to use that same skill pool (so if they 1x transformation they're paying 2x costs and can only 1x another skill), spread out over 3 skills to improve "only" their empath spells.

Empaths are training in Mental lores, which will effect both minor and Major Mental when they are released. Since they are not losing Major Spiritual, Spiritual lores count on a 1 to 1 basis across 2 circles, one of them being a Major, as opposed to our 2 minor circles. We obviously have no 1 to 1 exchange over a Major circle, which is one fix I proposed.


You don't have to train in the skills if you don't want to. For as much as you are touting the wizard lores as being great, to me, pre-70s there's no point in having more than just 20 or 24 air lore ranks as a pure wizard. You'd be better off with more spell ranks.

This is not a valid argument. We've already established elemental lores are terrible. I lament that fact nearly as much as you, as these lores are supposed to be influencing my primary and one of my secondary spell circles. Staff has even acknowledged this via the lore review. Staff has also acknowledged shortcomings in the Sorcerer lore department. The question is how far will they go to fix these problems.

[subzero]

Basically, all that Fallen is saying is that he wants more bang for his buck for his sorcerer when training in elemental, spiritual, or sorcerer lores. I kind of agree with you that their sorcerer lores affect more of their spells than Fallen gives credit for. But you kind of have to admit -- spiritual lore and elemental lores don't do as much for them as mental lore does for empaths and that's not an unfair comparison.

Sorcerous lore technically affects more than most give it credit for because half of the stuff is a gimmick. That's the problem. Not only do we have the most lore sets to train in due to our hybrid nature and the fact that we have our own profession specific lore, but we get less combat-related bonuses than other professions that have a single lore set to train in that affects three spell circles worth of spells. On top of that, most of the lore benefits are mechanical. They do very little to distinguish sorcerers in game.

Keep in mind that we lack a major spell circle unlike the other caster classes. The main thing that separates us is that we, in turn, have our own lore set. The 700 circle should almost "feature" lores as a way to boost it and to make the lore more worthy of being a capable substitute for the lack of a major circle and to offset the reality that the generic lores are only going to have minor effects on sorcery due to two of our spell circles being minor lists. That means things like the animated limbs from 708 and necro training don't cut it. With the addition of a bolt spell coming to the list soon, it would be a good time to actually make that lore bonus useful. Something as simple as reliably being able to use 708 limbs to keep critters down can add flavor to the profession; you may have a demo sorcerer setting up his balefire with ewave while a necromancer or sorcerer trained in both lores might set them up by letting animated limbs help out.

There is definitely an imbalance created by a design flaw. They simply made sorcerers too broad magically (sorcerer, elemental, and spiritual magic) and the lores do not do enough to tighten things up. Lore training just isn't going to significantly affect the minor circles to help with this. Short of massive overhauls, we need these three lore sets to be tied into sorcery more than they do. Quite a bit more, I'd say, and that certainly includes sorcerous lore. They tried to diversify us with Demonology and Necromancy, but they didn't do enough. There aren't enough spells that feature these lores, especially on a noticeable level, to accomplish this. Unfortunately, the high level, "spec defining" spells I think these lores were depending on are lackluster and for various reasons rarely used.

The only way you're going to know if a sorcerer trains in necro lore is if they animate critters/players, you just happen to stumble upon a uselessly animated limb flopping on the ground while a sorcerer hunts, or you see them infused with blood via blood burst (and this can be done with 1 rank, so it's not exactly indicative of much). It's pretty limited for demonology, too. Obviously if they have a demon, that's a tipoff, but you don't really notice it's effect on phase, torment, or planar shift. Sure, some of the stuff is nice, but we need more, both mechanically and visually. As it is, even the things that can show some differences aren't able to truly portray the caster's proficiency in their realm of knowledge. You can animate lower level critters and PCs with fairly low necro training, but without player knowledge of things such as critter level vs caster level and the ridiculous formulas in AD, you don't exactly know how good a necromancer you're seeing. Same for minor demons. You can summon them with minimal ranks and be focused on necromancy, yet you probably don't use AD and appear to be a demonologist.

Things need a'fixin and with the way we're set up, sorcerers should almost be lore specialists. We should have some of the widest range of lore benefits considering the number of options at our disposal. Toss in the fact that we are able to combine the two types of magic and you might open the possibility of having cross-set benefits of some sort. I think lores are definitely the way to go, but it won't be easy.

[cookiemonster2]

When Gs4 was setup sorcerers lacked a good advocate, Nilven was already mostly gone and phoning it in at that point.

I think they decided "the minimum lore training cost for pures should be 0/6"

Then they looked at sorcerers and thought "well, it doesn't make sense for them to train in elemental lore for the same price as sorcerer lore, so we'll make it more expensive for them."

Then when designing spells they decided on a universal lore training expectation (per level basis) to base benefits around.

This was the extent of their thought process. They didn't even consider things like ROI. They didn't consider that 3 lore types might be a burden, not a bonus. They didn't consider the option of reducing training per level expectations in the sorcerer lores to make up for it. They, in fact, got so fixated on making us choose between necromancy or demonology that they jacked them up (way too high). If only empaths had to choose between hunting and healing like we have to choose.

And unfortunately, we ended up with the short end of the stick because of it.

[Fallen]

Here is an X-post from a post I made on the officials.
It is very long, so to sum it up: The document explains how Demonology is derived from Elemental magic and Necromancy from Spiritual Magic. As such, these two lores would augment the Lesser Spiritual and Elemental circles respectively.

----
The general concepts of good and evil can be quite difficult to define, but for the purposes of this discussion, what would be commonly viewed as a perversion of the normal workings of things will be referred to as an evil pursuit. As such, both Necromancy and Demonology are labeled as evil in terms of their workings within the normal confines of magic. It is a widely known fact that sorcerers blend both Elemental and Spiritual forces together to wield their own particular brand of magic, but what is less known are the exact methods to which these feats are accomplished.

Demonology is at its heart a manipulation of the raw aspects of elemental magic. While true Elementalists such as Wizards would color the practice as abhorrent, Sorcerers forgo viewing elements in their core states of being and instead blend these disparate forces together at will. The methods of doing often involves so much ripping, shredding, and remending that the results can hardly be recognized as elemental in nature. Perhaps the most damning evidence of this process is of a sorcerer unleashing a stream of Elemental magic so corrupt and unstable, that it tears a whole in the valence itself, allowing all manner of creatures entrance from the demonic realms.

If a conservative-minded Wizard views Demonology as unsavory, then his fellow Cleric would view the use and practice of Necromancy as completely vile. Nothing involved in Necromancy is considered blended, so much as it is utterly destroyed, and at best then used as sustenance to power another yet another reaction. The process of applying Necromancy begins with ripping apart spiritual mana used within a normal spell, then reinserting portions of its remains throughout the otherwise unaltered ability. This effect often causes dramatic, if unstable aspects in a spell, most commonly manifesting as an explosive imbalance of forces which strips flesh from bone in the attempt to regain equilibrium. It is only when this process is carefully controlled that any additive effects are observed. Some have whispered that the most potent forms of Necromancy require the death and disassembling of a minor spiritual being, such as those used in cooperation by Clerics and Empaths alike.

Below is a list of spells which I believe are ripe for augmentation by our particular brand of magic, as well as the expected results from such efforts:

NOTES - Wizards would enjoy a 1 to 1 ratio of lore benefit from Demonology training for these effects. Every other profession would have a 1 to 2 lore benefit ratio.

>Minor Elemental Circle Demonology Augmentation:

Presence (402) - A phantom rank of perception is added at each threshold of seed X

Detect Magic (405) - A 1% chance to detect spells from outside one's known circles is added at each threshold of seed X.

Elemental Blast (409) - An additional instance of plasma? damage is added at a base percent chance of X, and increases by Y amount each threshold of seed Z. Each additional target's chance of being struck with plasma flares has their percent chance cut in half from the previous target.

Elemental Blade (411) - An an additional plasma flare will fire with each normally occurring flare. The number of these flares start at a base of X, and increases by Y amount each threshold of seed Z.

Weapon Deflection (412) - 1 additional point of AS is lost per each threshold reached on seed X.

Elemental Saturation (413) - Either an additional pushdown of 1 point of TD is granted when this spell lands, or the TD pushdown for this spell TO land is increased via this lore is granted, increased by 1 point each threshold of X seed chart. (whichever is deemed more balanced)

Elemental Guard Three and/or Mass Elemental Defense (414/419) - 1 point of Hybrid TD is added per each threshold of Seed X.

Elemental Strike (415) - A chance of plasma? damage is added to the effect of this spell at a base of X%, and increases by Y amount each threshold of seed Z. Each additional target's chance of being struck with plasma flares has their percent chance cut in half from the previous target.

Piercing Gaze (416) - The caster gains an 1% chance of spotting and avoiding a glyph trap, increasing by 1% for each rank of Demonology known.

Elemental Dispel (417) - An 1% percent chance of doing plasma damage per successful dispel attack, increasing by 1% per each threshold in X seed chart.

Mana Focus (418) - 1 phantom rank of Demonology for the purposes of summoning a demon is gained for each threshold reached on X seed chart when this spell is in effect outside of a summoning chamber.

Create Magic Item (420) - A percent chance to reduce the mana point total of the spell being imbedded, allowing more charges to be placed within each item. 1 point is removed from spells level 2-5, 2 points removed from spells 6-10, 3 points removed from spells 11-15, and 4 points are removed from spells 16-20. The percent chance of this effect is a base X, and increases by Y amount each threshold of seed Z.

----

NOTE: Clerics would enjoy a 1 to 1 benefit of Necromancy lore for these effects. All other professions would have a 1 to 2 ratio of effect.

>Minor Spiritual Necromancy Augmentation:

Airwall (102) - A base X percent chance to whither incoming physical ammunition into nothing, increasing by Y%, based on Z seed chart.

Resist Curse/Resist Poison (104/105) - A percent chance to have attacks which trigger these spells to activate reflect the spell back at its caster, with a base percent chance of X at Y ranks, and increasing by Z amount per threshold of seed chart A.

Remove Stun (108) - At 50 ranks of Necromancy, the caster unlocks the ability to channel this spell in open form, resulting in a random amount of necromantic damage(disintegrate?) and the removal of the stunned condition to all present. Everyone in the caster's group is automatically struck with this effect. Those outside the group will face a warding attempt before being affected by the spell. Necromancy ranks above 50 will help to lessen the backlash of necromantic energy released by this spell.

Remove Invisibility (109) - 1 point of CS is added to the caster's attempt to remove someone from invisibility per threshold of X seed chart.

Unbalance (110) - A percent chance for an additional line of disintegrate? damage is added, with a base chance of X at Y ranks of Necromancy, increasing by Z amount every threshold on the A seed chart scale.

Fasthyr's Reward (115) - A percent chance for Hybrid spells to be treated as Spiritual spells, working in tandem with the effects of Blessing's lore. Base percent chance of X at Y ranks of Necromancy, increasing by Z amount every threshold on the A seed chart scale.

Spirit Strike (117) - An X percent base chance to add disintegration damage at rank Y of seed chart Z, increasing accordingly.

Spiritual Web (118) - A 1% chance is added for every 2 ranks of Necromancy to subject the target to disintegration(?) damage via a warding attempt using the same pushdown as the web effect itself every round the target lingers in the webbing.

Spiritual Dispel (119) - A 1% percent chance of doing disintegrate damage per successful dispel attack, increasing by 1% per each threshold in X seed chart.

Lesser Shroud (120) - 1 point of Hybrid TD is added per each threshold of Seed X.

Spirit Guide (130) - At 50 ranks, an alternate form of this spell is unlocked via the CHANNEL verb. Channeling this spell converts the sickness inflicted into raw damage with minor to moderate disintegrate wounds, though no round time, as the damage is done to the caster while his form is converted to energy. Necromancy Ranks past 50 help to lessen the damage received from this spell. NOTE: This method of transportation only works for the caster.

Searing Light (135) - A 1% chance of an added disintegrate flare to the first target struck for every 1 rank of Necromancy, this chance is then halved for the second target, then halved again for the third, and so on.

----

Closing Notes: I do not ask or expect all of these effects to be added to these circles in order to even out our lore disadvantage. The purpose of this document is only to present a rough idea on how these spells would work in conjunction with our lores, as well as an explanation of how Demonology and Necromancy work in relation to their respective power sources.

[caelric]

Ev, I think you have some great ideas. Unfortunately, I think, based on some things that have been said on the officials, that they have revamped sorc stuff (lores, spells, etc...) in some way shape or form, and whatever they have done, that's the way it is going to be, good or bad. You know how well most of the GMs react to criticism of their ideas...

[Fallen]

Ev, I think you have some great ideas. Unfortunately, I think, based on some things that have been said on the officials, that they have revamped sorc stuff (lores, spells, etc...) in some way shape or form, and whatever they have done, that's the way it is going to be, good or bad. You know how well most of the GMs react to criticism of their ideas...

This is likely true, though I don't think the lore review is finished in the design phase, as they haven't given us a preview of it yet. Just one spell. At any rate, it was fun lending form to the ideas of Necromancy and Demonology. That is always how I have viewed the two lores, but I never put it down on paper.

[crb]

I wish they would just let the cat out of the bag already. Decisions have obviously been made, I've been told as much.

I know why they won't. They don't want to announce an incomplete thing. I mean imagine if they were to announce something like... an airship, only it wasn't done, but they would make a promise it would be delivered, only they couldn't do it on time, they we get upset because they're late.

Or they know inevitably people will dislike whatever they say. For instance if they take my suggestions or at all do anything that will make sorcerers relatively more powerful you'll have people like doug, silverpenis, and krip coming in complaining about it.

They know what they want to do, so they want to wait until it is ready to go so they can avoid a long drawn out argument period.

That being said, I hope they don't wait too long.

[caelric]

I know why they won't. They don't want to announce an incomplete thing. I mean imagine if they were to announce something like... monks, only it wasn't done, but they would make a promise it would be delivered, only they couldn't do it on time, they we get upset because they're late.


Fixed that for you.

[Deathravin]

I wonder when they're going to understand that it's best not to say a word about anything until it's 100% through the process. It's been conceived of, signed off on, coded, tested, fixed, tested, and ready for deployment. Then you announce it'll be coming in 2 weeks. And in 2 weeks you deploy it.

If they did this every single time. They'd have respect instead of 'RSN 2004' laughs.

Nono, the current system is really working out well for them.

[crb]

Oh I thought an airship was funnier than monks, considering what happened to Ardwen.

[Fatsix]

Would be nice if lores effected 703. To make the target have the spell backlash on them rather than just block it. 712 reactive against attack spells would help greatly in shattered.

[Fallen]

All that really needs to be said by me at this point is that I would prefer to amplify the effects of sorcerer lore rather than reduce the costs. With respect to the degree that lore effects are already being amplified by these spell reviews, I think that sorcerer lores need to have an edge over other lore groups for reasons already mentioned: the application is so much narrower. Per rank, then, sorcerer lore ought to have more value.

I can't really make that argument while at the same time trying to get our lore spread to other spell circles (not impossible, but unlikely), get an artificial skill synergy built into the system (unlikelier), or get TP costs cut (unlikeliest). Those aren't dumb suggestions, but they're not the ones the Dev team is going to end up supporting.

You do have a unique situation here. You're the only ones who have the burden of choosing among three lore groups for each of three spell circles. You're also the only ones who have a reasonable shot at amassing ranks in three different lore groups, especially the "old" dudes. But versatility is kind of meaningless when access to everything is easy. On the other hand, it's also meaningless when some of the character build options aren't as effective. So, my job is to make it as difficult for you to decide between lore paths as possible. Otherwise, if certain options were no-brainers, we might as well call the whole thing off, scrap the skill system and install a pair of FacebookWars-style buttons, one that says "Attack skill" and another that says "Defense skill".

Just bear with me while we inch our way to the Promised Land, huh?

-Strath
http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=6956

[Fallen]

My response from the officials...

If staff will actually allow you to work from the assumption that sorcerer lores are more limited in scope, therefor are deserving in more power, then this will go a long ways towards making up for the inequity of our lore setup. I honestly do not believe this will work in practice as well as it will in theory, but what else can be done but wait?

Unfortunately, none of the issues with sorcerer lores addresses the issue of being saddled with two minor circles. We have been told that the minor circles must be dumbed down because of the massive amount of access to them. This goes for lore-based increases as well as outright spell design. Will this too be taken into account when the sorcerer review is ongoing? We will never get as much out of our secondary circles as other pures get out of their Major list. While this is a hybrid penalty, we are the only hybrids that actually have to face it.

[Danical]

I'm fucking really unhappy with demon implementation. That was pretty much the only hook I thought the spell had than being 'ye olde shitty ball spell'

[crb]

The problem is if they make our spells better people will fixate on that, if we become superior hunters, people will fixate on that, and things will get changed not to our benefit.

Unless the official website description of sorcerers is changed to read "The 700 circle is the most powerful in the game" we'll always have to look over our shoulder for a nerf, we'll always have a target on our back.

A feel like promising us a "more powerful spell circle" with an "edge" over others is just one big hustle. I really do not think they would ever been willing to grant us power commensurate with our costs.

Granted, if we get curse buffs with an AS booster of at least +40. Or otherwise get more buff spells added. If we get chain reaction DC, harbinger, major demons added to 725, self animation added to 730, something nice for 735, and something really nice for 750. I'll probably be pretty happy.

Especially considering 150 and 450, if they are ever released, are going to be so piss poor weak in whatever they do considering the need to balance them for every fucking profession in game that has access to them.

They'll have to literally think if the spell could break rogues before implementing it. We shouldn't expect much.

[Warriorbird]

I do think some eye to balance needs to be still maintained post Warden. With that said, I primarily don't play GS these days because I don't have fun with it.

Some Sorceror boosts would improve fun. They need some things that make them feel like they have a magical fucking shotgun but there are some risks involved.

[Asha]

like they have a magical fucking shotgun..

:lol: