Bard Renewal Calculation

[DaCapn]

I can't tell whether bard renewal costs are incorrectly documented or I'm making a mistake. Any help checking my numbers (and/or testing on your own bard) would be greatly appreciated. I'm putting together a bard calculator script (since bard songs are particularly tedious) so there is some greater good to be had if you help.

Here's what I have so far:

Level 40



Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 160 60
Combat Maneuvers...................| 120 30
Polearm Weapons....................| 184 84
Physical Fitness...................| 142 42
Dodging............................| 50 10
Harness Power......................| 142 42
Mental Mana Control................| 120 30
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 141 41
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 74 16
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 105 25
Climbing...........................| 105 25

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 1

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 40


Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 75 (27) ... 75 (27)
Constitution (CON): 70 (20) ... 70 (20)
Dexterity (DEX): 82 (11) ... 82 (11)
Agility (AGI): 87 (13) ... 87 (13)
Discipline (DIS): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Aura (AUR): 80 (10) ... 80 (10)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (16)
Intuition (INT): 74 (12) ... 74 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 85 (17) ... 85 (17)
Influence (INF): 75 (17) ... 75 (17)

Things I presume to be true:
- Renewal costs for 1006, 1007, 1010, and 1019 are variable
- 1006, 1007, 1010, and 1019 are the only auto-renew songs with variable renewal costs
- Renewal cost for 1007 doesn't appear to increase with lore bonus

Here is where I'm currently having trouble:

Case 1 - Renewal cost for:
1003: Fortitude Song
1007: Kai's Triumph Song
1010: Song of Valor
1019: Song of Mirrors
Calculated: 29
Measured: 29
Note: 1 (1003) + 12 (1007) + 6 (1010) + 10 (1019) = 29 MP

Case 2 - Renewal cost when adding the following:
1012: Sonic Weapon Song
Calculated: 33
Measured: 33
Note: 29 (previous) + 4 (1012) = 33 MP

Case 3 - Renewal cost when adding the following:
1014: Sonic Armor
Calculated: 38
Measured: 39
Note: 1014 should be 5 MP renewal so I have 1 MP multi-song penalty?

Case 4 - Renewal cost when adding the following:
1011: Song of Peace
Measured: 55
Note: 39 (previous) + 12 (multi-song penalty) + 4 (1011) = 55 MP

Case 5 - Renewal cost when adding the following:
1009: Sonic Shield Song
Measured: 71
Note: 55 (previous) + 12 (multi-song penalty) + 4 (1009) = 71 MP

Play.net has the following to say about multi-song penalties:
http://www.play.net/gs4/info/spells/spelllist.asp?circle=10

After the second song, there is an additional charge of MPs, added every renewal interval. This multi-song penalty applies any time the Bard is singing three or more songs, and increases dramatically with each additional song added. The increased cost for controlling multiple songs considers the number of songs sung, Bard circle songs known, Discipline, and Logic statistics.

Krakiipedia had originally stated that the multisong penalty & corresponding offset earned by training is:
Penalty = 12 * (Songs Active - 2)
Offset = Bard Base + DIS bonus + LOG bonus

For my bard running 6 spell songs, that should be:
Penalty = 12*(6-2)= 48 MP
Offset = 40+20+16= 76 MP

Even if you consider all 6 spell songs to be providing a multi-song penalty, you'd still only have 72 MP. The multi-song penalty doesn't appear to seed and it appears to increase in increments of 12 MP so that looks good. I'd guess that my actual offset is only 47 MP for some reason.

Tests I've done:
- Variable renewal cost spells have all been tested singularly (no other songs active) and costs are correct
- Checked in at the inn to make sure skills and stats are all well and recorded
- Swapped 1011 in for 1007 case 3, still had same 1 MP multisong penalty

Questions:
(1) What should my multi-song penalty be?
(2) What should my training/statistic offset be?

[Latrinsorm]

I agree that it appears the offset is what's incorrect. Let's see if we can find a way to make your offset 47, recognizing of course that with only one case we could find infinite ways to do so:

If we let bard ranks be, then we have to get 7 out of 20 and 16, which we can do with (20 + 16) / 5.

If we divide bard ranks by 2, then we have to get 17 out of 20 and 16, which is harder to do with integer division.

Dividing bard ranks by a number higher than 2 seems unlikely, so I think a reasonable provisional hypothesis is: bard ranks + (logic bonus + discipline bonus) / 5.

[DaCapn]

Reasonable hypothesis. If two people care to step up and test their multi-song offset and post the relevant skills, we could have a complete system of linear equations to find the answer for sure.


Data Summary:

DaCapn

Offset = 12*(6-2) - (39-33-5) = 47 MP

Bard...............................| 40

Discipline (DIS): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (16)

Offset = 12*(7-2) - (54-38-4) = 48 MP

Bard...............................| 42

Discipline (DIS): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (16)

Offset = 12*(7-2) - (54-38-4) = 48 MP

Bard...............................| 43

Discipline (DIS): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (16)

Offset = 12*(7-2) - (53-38-4) = 49 MP

Bard...............................| 44

Discipline (DIS): 91 (20) ... 91 (20)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (16)

Offset = 12*(7-2) - (53-38-4) = 49 MP

Bard...............................| 44

Discipline (DIS): 91 (20) ... 91 (20)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (17)

Offset = 12*(7-2) - (52-38-4) = 50 MP

Bard...............................| 46

Discipline (DIS): 91 (20) ... 91 (20)
Logic (LOG): 93 (16) ... 93 (17)

Brad

Offset = 12*(5-2) - (24-14-4) = 30 MP

Bard...............................| 12

Discipline (DIS): 90 (10) ... 90 (10)
Logic (LOG): 89 (19) ... 89 (19)

Lumi

Offset = 12*(9-2) - (75-67-5) = 81 MP

Bard...............................| 101

Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Logic (LOG): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)

[Kitsun]

(at level 100), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 150 50
Shield Use.........................| 201 101
Combat Maneuvers...................| 201 101
Edged Weapons......................| 302 202
Multi Opponent Combat..............| 70 15
Physical Fitness...................| 201 101
Dodging............................| 170 70
Magic Item Use.....................| 140 40
Harness Power......................| 201 101
Elemental Mana Control.............| 120 30
Mental Mana Control................| 140 40
Elemental Lore - Air...............| 201 101
Mental Lore - Telepathy............| 201 101
Perception.........................| 120 30
Climbing...........................| 140 40
Swimming...........................| 150 50

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 75

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 105
Training Points: 65 Phy 0 Mnt (2822 Phy converted to Mnt)
(Use SKILLS BASE to display unmodified ranks and goals)

240 days remain until the annual FIXSKILLS is to be granted, on 05/20/2011.

Your 30 day migration period will begin when you choose to degrade a skill.

Further information can be found in SKILL FAQS.
>info
Race: Elf Profession: Bard (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 34 Expr: 11985747 Level: 100
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Constitution (CON): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Dexterity (DEX): 97 (28) ... 97 (28)
Agility (AGI): 100 (40) ... 100 (40)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (10) ... 100 (10)
Aura (AUR): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Intuition (INT): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Wisdom (WIS): 98 (24) ... 98 (24)
Influence (INF): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Mana: 302 Silver: 0



You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Peace
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 60 mana.



You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 56 mana.


You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 41 mana.




My brain is failing to process all the data right now. Should I start at your base and add on all the rest like you do?

[DaCapn]

How about this:

Stack all of the variable cost songs, (1006, 1007, 1010, 1019), then iterate the following process:

loop {

measure renewal cost for currently active spell songs (call this cost0)
incant a flat-cost auto-renewal song (see table below, call the base renewal cost of this song renew0)
RENEW ALL, measure renewal cost (call this cost1)
if cost1 - cost0 > renew0 then calculate your offset: offset = 12*(active songs-2) - (cost1-cost0-renew0)
else continue to iterate

}

If you can't stack 4 songs without a penalty, skip some of the variable-cost songs and start adding the flat-renewal ones earlier.

The only values we should need are:
- Multi-song offset
- Bard base ranks
- Discipline & Logic (might as well give both stat and bonus)

This is a list of the flat-cost auto-renewal songs and their renewal costs:

Song Renewal
1003 Fortitude Song 1
1009 Sonic Shield Song 4
1011 Song of Peace 4
1012 Sonic Weapon Song 4
1014 Sonic Armor 5
1017 Song of Noise 7
1018 Song of Power 15
1025 Singing Sword Song 15

EDIT: In a case like yours, Kitsun, you might break the bank in terms of your offset. There's only 12 auto-renewal spells. If you're wearing all 12, that's a multi-song penalty of 120 MP and you've got 105 ranks in bard base.

[Lumi]

Edit: Cleaning up the post, since all you really need is the summary at the bottom...

So it kicked in on my ninth song, with an MSP of 3. After that, it fit the expected pattern. So! My if my penalty is (9-2)*12=84, it suggests that my offset is 81.

Summary:
Offset: 81
Bard ranks: 101
DIS: 100 (25)
LOG: 100 (30)

[DaCapn]

EDIT: This is wrong, see below posts:
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=1177329&postcount=8
http://forum.gsplayers.com/showpost.php?p=1177524&postcount=10

Actually, it should be here, right?


You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor
Song of Peace
Sonic Weapon Song
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be a few minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 67 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor
Song of Peace
Sonic Weapon Song
Sonic Armor
Song of Mirrors

The effects of your magical medley have faintly begun to wane. It will be a few minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 75 mana.

Renewal cost for 1014 should be 5 MP but you saw renewal cost increase by 8. So your offset should be 12*(8-2) - (75-67-5) = 69 MP.

You were looking at the 75 -> 94 MP (delta=19 MP) renewal jump when you added 1017 (base renewal of 7). The renewal increase was 7+12=19 MP. You had already exhausted your offset and got the full 12 MP multi-song penalty.

So, two data points so far. As long as the relationship is linear between bard base ranks, LOG, & DIS, (i.e. no diminishing returns for bard base training), we should only need one more data point.

[Lumi]

Actually, it should be here, right?



Renewal cost for 1014 should be 5 MP but you saw renewal cost increase by 8. So your offset should be 12*(8-2) - (75-67-5) = 69 MP.

You were looking at the 75 -> 94 MP (delta=19 MP) renewal jump when you added 1017 (base renewal of 7). The renewal increase was 7+12=19 MP. You had already exhausted your offset and got the full 12 MP multi-song penalty.

So, two data points so far. As long as the relationship is linear between bard base ranks, LOG, & DIS, (i.e. no diminishing returns for bard base training), we should only need one more data point

That...doesn't seem right to me.

When I had 8 songs going, there was NO MSP. This suggests that there my offset is at least (8-2)*12=72. I saw a partial MSP when adding a 9th song, which means my offset is certainly less than (9-2)*12=84. Since I only saw an MSP of 3, I still think my offset is 81.

Going from 75->94 is going from my 9th song to my 10th. But I'm already seeing partial MSP from the previous song, so it's rather moot by this point.

ETA: I'm thinking we're actually on the same page, and you may have just miscounted the number of songs I had going before and after adding 1014. Fortitude Song is up on the same line as "You are currently singing:", might be easy to miss.

[Latrinsorm]

Fortitude Song is up on the same line as "You are currently singing:", might be easy to miss.Haha, that's where I missed it too.

Anyway, my first guess was way off. If we take Lumi - DaCapn*30/16, we get:

26 * bard modifier - 12.5 * DIS modifier = -19.125

...which means that DIS modifier must be greater than 1 (as opposed to my guess of 1/5). Also, if we take Lumi - DaCapn*25/20, we get:

51 * bard modifier - 10 * LOG modifier = 10.25

...which if we assume that LOG modifier is positive means that the bard modifier is less than 1/5, probably much less.

[DaCapn]

ETA: I'm thinking we're actually on the same page, and you may have just miscounted the number of songs I had going before and after adding 1014. Fortitude Song is up on the same line as "You are currently singing:", might be easy to miss.

Heh... That would be the culprit. Noted above.

[DaCapn]

Anyone else willing to help here?

[Anebriated]

I can give it a go. Ill read the thread a bit more in depth in a bit but I have a 19 bard in shattered and a 49 in prime.

[DaCapn]

At this point, I know that the formula involves (Bard Base)/2 and that the overall expression is likely truncated. At least that's currently the case for my character. I still haven't ruled out the possibility that there's diminishing returns (this is GS, after all).

[Fulmine]

I was looking at what was being discussed on my bard and happened on getting good results if looking at the actual stat rather than the bonus.

As it was quoted from the site:
The increased cost for controlling multiple songs considers the number of songs sung, Bard circle songs known, Discipline, and Logic statistics.

Using the data from previous posts:

Bard Ranks|Discipline | Logic
40 | 90 | 93
42 | 90 | 93
43 | 90 | 93
44 | 91 | 93
46 | 91 | 93
101 | 100 | 100

Using the equation trunc((Bard Circle)*0.5 + Disipline*0.15 + Logic*0.15)
Calculated Value | Observed Value
47 | 47
48 | 48
48 | 48
49 | 49
50 | 50
80 | 81

Using the same Equation My low level bards values are
Bard Ranks = 10
Discipline = 83
Logic = 87

The predicted value is 30 Observed is 29.

Anybody Else able to run a quick check on their bard? The values and way of truncating/rounding may be off but i'd like to see if there are other observable results that are with in 1. Could help see if it really is using the stat not the bonus.

On a side note, if it is, thats great news for races with terrible Bonus modifiers!


Oh! Also all examples above have Logic and Discipline values that are pretty close. Anybody have a bard with some drastically different stats? Like 30+ difference? It would help to establish if the modifiers for Logic and Discipline are the same.

Edit: Fixed a mistype in data.

[DaCapn]

Awesome. I'd chime in if I had leveled my bard any more since my last data point. I'll give a look at error margins later this evening.

[Latrinsorm]

If we truncate each term separately, it becomes really hard to get 101-100-100 to be 81. When we do one truncation, 101-100-100 is at 80.5 and 10-83-87 is at 30.5, so we must have a higher coefficient for Discipline than Logic, but the only way I can get enough leverage is to make Discipline 0.3 and Logic 0, and even then I can't nudge 101-100-100 to 81. I considered using a negative modifier for Logic, but that seems kind of screwy (...and it didn't work either).

It could be that it mimics the CS formula in reverse: only bard ranks over a certain point are worth .5 per song, and the first ones are only worth .25 or something.

[DaCapn]

It could be that it mimics the CS formula in reverse: only bard ranks over a certain point are worth .5 per song, and the first ones are only worth .25 or something.

That was kind of my initial thought. Like how levels apply to renewal time.

[Brad]

If you're looking for additional data, I just took some notes for my bard. Here are some numbers, maybe it can be helpful for verifying and/or tweaking or whatnot:

Songs Actual | Penalty

7 Songs -> 1003 + 1006 + 1007 + 1009 + 1010 + 1011 + 1012 = 56 28
6 Songs -> 1003 + 1006 + 1007 + 1009 + 1010 + + 1012 = 40 16
5 Songs -> 1003 + 1006 + 1007 + 1009 + 1010 = 24 6
4 Songs -> 1003 + 1006 + 1007 + + 1010 = 14 0
3 Songs -> 1003 + 1006 + 1007 = 11 0
2 Songs -> 1003 + 1006 = 4 0


Discipline (DIS): 90 (10) ... 90 (10)
Logic (LOG): 89 (19) ... 89 (19)

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 12

Level 15

[Fulmine]

Well, his results invalidate my hypothesis unless there is some soft of under trained for level penalty. It becomes impossible for my 87 D, 83 L, 11 BR to equal 30 and for his 90 D, 89 L, 12 BR to also equal 30 without one.

I did find a way to get it to work by using (Bard Ranks)^2/Level, but it seems more like grasping at straws even though it worked, and even bumped the one result up to 81. My bard is still in the initial 30 days, so I tried bumping up bard ranks well above level (lowest I can go and still get above the offset is 10 ranks) and never got more than 1 extra offset every 2 levels.

Here is the data I got:

Level 11:
Discipline (DIS): 83 (11) ... 83 (11)
Logic (LOG): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)

Bard Ranks | Offset
10 | 29
11 | 30
12 | 30
13 | 31
14 | 31
15 | 32
16 | 32
17 | 33

After messing around with it a bit I reached level 12:
Discipline (DIS): 84 (12) ... 84 (12)
Logic (LOG): 87 (18) ... 87 (18)

Bard Ranks | Offset
10 | 30
11 | 30
12 | 31


So it looks like my gain to Discipline and Discipline bonus at level 12 was enough to change my Offset by 1.


Also I should note I still have my 5 Stat changes on the Bard. If it would help I can change around my Discipline and logic values so we can get some other data points. Just let me know what values it might be best to test.

[Latrinsorm]

I seem to recall mechanics in GS where a stat penalty is counted as 0, so I think the best would be to set it so that your stat bonuses are 0. If it is based on stat (and some overtraining penalty as you describe) and not bonus, then we'll still have a big step to work with.

Also, from looking at your last post and bard rank 11 it looks like there is only one truncation, which is nice to know going forward.

[Fulmine]

Warning, gonna be a long post.


Here are the results of the fixskills I did. Used em all up, so nothing else I can check. I logged all of it and can can post more such as full stats potentially if we see a need.

All were done with 13 Bard Ranks.



Tanked (low as I could get them):

Discipline (DIS): 29 (-15) ... 29 (-15)
Logic (LOG): 26 (-12) ... 26 (-12)

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 12 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 21 mana.

12(4-2)-(21-12-4)=19





50's (stats at 50 each):

Discipline (DIS): 50 (-5) ... 50 (-5)
Logic (LOG): 50 (0) ... 50 (0)

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 12 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 19 mana.

12(4-2)-(19-12-4)=21






Zero's (bonus at zero):

Discipline (DIS): 60 (0) ... 60 (0)
Logic (LOG): 49 (0) ... 49 (0)

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 12 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 19 mana.

12(4-2)-(19-12-4)=21






Close as possible to Capped (thought it would be nice to see a low level near 100's):

Discipline (DIS): 92 (16) ... 92 (16)
Logic (LOG): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 16 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 21 mana.

12(5-2)-(21-16-3)=34

[Latrinsorm]

All were done with 13 Bard Ranks.
Discipline (DIS): 29 (-15) ... 29 (-15)
Logic (LOG): 26 (-12) ... 26 (-12)
12(4-2)-(21-12-4)=19Ain't that some shit. There must be a flat component, or a level-based component, or something besides plain bard ranks and bonuses. Increasing bonus increases offset, so they can't have negative coefficients, unless the absolute value of the Logic coefficient is much larger than the absolute value of the Discipline coefficient, and what sense would that make? Will sleep and look at this tomorrow.

[Latrinsorm]

Ok, step 1:
Post #19 suggests that bard ranks are /2.

Step 2:
Post #19
10 - 11 - 18 = 29
10 - 12 - 18 = 30
11 - 11 - 18 = 30
11 - 12 - 18 = 30

Suggests that there is only one truncation.

Step 3:
Post #21
13 - 0 - 0 = 21
Bard / 2 truncated is 6, suggesting a flat value of 15.

13 - 16 - 25 = 34
So trunc(6.5 + 16 * x + 25 * y) = 19, so 16 * x + 25 * y is at least 12.5 and no greater than 13.49. Solving this simultaneously with the values from post #19 gives me .64, .13; .67, .11; .70, .09; .73, .07; .76, .05; .78, .04; .79, .03; .81, .02; .82, .01; and perhaps most interestingly .84, .00.

Now, it is also worth noting that the flat value could actually be level-based, making the immediately preceding analysis totally pointless. If we take the rest of the data and assume Lumi's is the highest level and DaCapn's is between Lumi and Fulmine, then we would expect that the trend would be uniform one way or the other, and that for each block the flat value would be the same. This leaves us with .67, .11; .7, .09; .76, .05; .78, .04; and .79, .03. The flat values are 15, 12, 11 for the first two and 15, 11, 10 for the last three.

.

Future avenues to investigate:
- The flat/level value: fixstat to 0 bonus in each.
- Negative bonuses: the modifier appear to be different and smaller for negatives. This probably isn't as applicable.
- Whether bard / 2 holds up: fixskill down to however many bard ranks you need to generate multi-song penalty and increase slowly.

[Brad]

In the interest of science, my bard has reached level 16. Upon doing so, I took numbers without any changes in skills. The results were the same numbers, though the following happened:

Logic (LOG) : 89 +1 ... 19 +1

Discipline and bard song number stayed the same, and there was no cost.

After training, adding a pair of bard songs only adjusted the costs for the songs with variable costs. There was no other change in multisong cost or whatnot.

[Latrinsorm]

After training, adding a pair of bard songs only adjusted the costs for the songs with variable costs. There was no other change in multisong cost or whatnot.Well, great. So bard / 2 doesn't hold up after all. Oh well.

[Tgo01]

Come on Latrin, you've had almost 2 years now to figure this out, any progress? I've been reading this thread for over an hour now trying to make heads or tails of this. It's driving me batty because I really want to know.

The part that confuses me the most is Fulmine's post up there. How can he go from -27 to +49 total in discipline and logic stats and only go from 19 offset to 34 offset? The only thing I could think of is negative stat bonuses don't affect the multisong penalty one way or the other and that the bonus from discipline and logic are capped at bard ranks or character level, which would explain how he only went from 21 offset at 0 discipline+logic stat to 34 offset at +49 discipline+logic stat, a difference of 13.

[Latrinsorm]

I'm pretty sure we're missing a variable, so my advice to you is to control every other variable (race, level, time of day, ambient barometric pressure, curvature of the universe) and start from scratch. The first step is to figure out how bard ranks work, once we have that nailed down we'll have an easier time with everything else.

[Tgo01]

Okay, so I reactivated an old bard of mine that had a fixskills laying around just to test some of this shit out. The things I do for you people (well, me.)

I only did up to 20 bard ranks, I'll do more later but I wanted to share what I have so far to see if we can figure some of this out before moving forward to see if we get the results we expect.

First of all I fixskilled the bard into 0 in each and every single skill, I then brought his harness power up to 50 and never changed it. After that the only thing I changed was adding 1 bard spell rank per test. He never leveled, he never even hunted so his stats never changed. I also made sure the temperature in my room stayed at a constant 70 degrees, just in case. All possible stats that I can think of that might be relevant are as follows:


Strength (STR): 99 (39) ... 99 (39)
Constitution (CON): 83 (26) ... 58 (14)
Dexterity (DEX): 94 (17) ... 94 (17)
Agility (AGI): 82 (11) ... 82 (11)
Discipline (DIS): 80 (15) ... 80 (15)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Logic (LOG): 51 (-5) ... 51 (-5)
Intuition (INT): 55 (2) ... 55 (2)
Wisdom (WIS): 69 (9) ... 69 (9)
Influence (INF): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)


Harness Power......................| 150 50


Level 47
Giantman
Health 14
Mana 152
Stamina 35
Spirit 10
Deeds 5

Yes he has some pretty bad death's sting so his con is lower than it should be, but assuming con has anything to do with this it never changed so it shouldn't matter.

As I said none of this ever changed throughout any of my tests.

Keep in mind you can't really even begin to test for multi song penalty until you get 1007 because that's the first time you have three renewable songs to sing.

What I did each and every single time I gained a new bard rank was I made sure my bard stopped singing all songs, I then went through each and every single song I intended to test with for that rank and I sang that song all by itself to see what the renewal cost was for that song by itself. I then started singing each song and as I added each song I checked the renewal cost to see if there was a penalty, I stopped adding new songs as soon as I noticed a penalty and jotted everything down. I then kept adding songs (up to three more at most) to see if the penalty for each song was 12, and it was every time thus far.



Bard spell ranks Songs Sung Mana renewal cost

3 1003 (1) 1 (no penalty)
6 1003 (1), 1006 (3) 4 (no penalty)
7 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (2) 6 (no penalty) (at least 12 offset)
9 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (4), 1009 (4) 13 (1 point penalty) (offset 23)
10 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (5), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 25 (9 point penalty) (offset 27)
11 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (6), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 26 (9 point penalty) (offset 27) (singing another song added 12 penalty)
12 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (7), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 26 (8 point penalty) (offset 28) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)
13 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (8), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 27 (8 point penalty) (offset 28) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)
14 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (9), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 28 (7 point penalty) (offset 29) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
15 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (10), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (7 point penalty) (offset 29) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
16 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (11), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (6 point penalty) (offset 30) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
17 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 30 (6 point penalty) (offset 30) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
18 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (5 point penalty) (offset 31) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
19 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (5 point penalty) (offset 31) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
20 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 29 (4 point penalty) (offset 32) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)

The number in parentheses after each song is how much the renewal cost was for just that song.

So far I think you were right earlier Latrin when you said every 2 bard ranks lowers the penalty by one, it certainly seems as though every even numbered bard rank lowers the penalty by one. Maybe this changes as you sing more songs or get more bard ranks. It's also possible that some people who commented in this thread earlier weren't being careful enough in checking how much each song cost when they leveled up or gained a new bard rank, especially the lower level bards who might not have been aware that Kai's (1007) goes up by 1 mana every rank until 17.

The only thing that confuses me so far on my list is bard ranks 9 and 10. At 9 ranks I have the penalty at 1 (23 offset) and at 10 I have the penalty at 9 (27 offset.) I either made a mistake (which I'm almost 100% positive I did not) or seeing as the penalty would have been lowered by 1 at 10 ranks (every even numbered rank) the penalty for singing 4 songs would have been offset completely so the penalty didn't show up until I started singing a 5th song and maybe for some reason you get a 3 point bonus at 10 ranks or maybe you get a 3 point bonus whenever you have managed to completely work off an entire song penalty.

[Latrinsorm]

I also made sure the temperature in my room stayed at a constant 70 degrees, just in case.I have a number of googled pdfs that put this into question, let's derail the discussion and talk about that for another 7 god damn pages because I love that so much.
The only thing that confuses me so far on my list is bard ranks 9 and 10. At 9 ranks I have the penalty at 1 (23 offset) and at 10 I have the penalty at 9 (27 offset.) I either made a mistake (which I'm almost 100% positive I did not) or seeing as the penalty would have been lowered by 1 at 10 ranks (every even numbered rank) the penalty for singing 4 songs would have been offset completely so the penalty didn't show up until I started singing a 5th song and maybe for some reason you get a 3 point bonus at 10 ranks or maybe you get a 3 point bonus whenever you have managed to completely work off an entire song penalty.Youf done vell. I think if(/when?) you get up to 6 songs we will have an interesting data point to compare to your observed oddity.

[Tgo01]

Alright alright, I got up to 30 ranks.


Bard spell ranks Songs Sung Mana renewal cost

3 1003 (1) 1 (no penalty)
6 1003 (1), 1006 (3) 4 (no penalty)
7 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (2) 6 (no penalty) (at least 12 offset)
9 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (4), 1009 (4) 13 (1 point penalty) (offset 23)
10 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (5), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 25 (9 point penalty) (offset 27)
11 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (6), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 26 (9 point penalty) (offset 27) (singing another song added 12 penalty)
12 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (7), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 26 (8 point penalty) (offset 28) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)
13 1003 (1), 1006 (3), 1007 (8), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 27 (8 point penalty) (offset 28) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)
14 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (9), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 28 (7 point penalty) (offset 29) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
15 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (10), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (7 point penalty) (offset 29) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
16 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (11), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (6 point penalty) (offset 30) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
17 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 30 (6 point penalty) (offset 30) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
18 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (5 point penalty) (offset 31) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
19 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (3) 29 (5 point penalty) (offset 31) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
20 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 29 (4 point penalty) (offset 32) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
21 1003 (1), 1006 (4), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 29 (4 point penalty) (offset 32) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
22 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 29 (3 point penalty) (offset 33) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
23 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 29 (3 point penalty) (offset 33) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
24 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 28 (2 point penalty) (offset 34) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
25 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 28 (2 point penalty) (offset 34) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
26 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 27 (1 point penalty) (offset 35) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
27 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4) 27 (1 point penalty) (offset 35) (singing another three songs added 12 penalty each)
28 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4), 1011 (4) 42 (12 point penalty) (offset 36) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)
29 1003 (1), 1006 (5), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (4), 1011 (4) 42 (12 point penalty) (offset 36) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)
30 1003 (1), 1006 (6), 1007 (12), 1009 (4), 1010 (5), 1011 (4) 43 (11 point penalty) (offset 37) (singing another two songs added 12 penalty each)

So either rank 10 is special or I made a boo boo at rank 9. Other than that it all looks good, every even numbered bard rank lowers the penalty by 1.

I'm going to do more ranks later to see if this changes at all. You can work your magic with what you have now though, right Latrin?

[Latrinsorm]

Terrence if you want sympathy look between shit and syphilis in the dictionary

Ok so let's do like we do with bard / 2 (who's with me Stanley Burrell of Brooklyn, New York, New York, New York, the United States of Newwww Yoooork). From you we get that 80 Disc stat + 51 Log stat = 22 offset.
From the Cap-tan we get that 90 Disc stat + 93 Log stat = 47 offset.

a * 80 + b * 51 = 22
a * 90 + b * 93 = 27

a * 90 + b * 51 * 90 / 80 = 22 * 90 / 80
b * (93 - 51 * 90 / 80) = 27 - 22 * 90 / 80
b = .063, perhaps /20 truncated?

a * 80 + 2 = 22
a = 20 / 80 = .25

a * 90 + 4 = 27
a = 23 / 90 = .2555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 55555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555555 5555555555555555555555555555555555555555 or we could say both are /4 rounded up.

.

Lumi is 81 offset, 101 bard ranks, 100 disc stat, 100 log stat. 101 / 2 = 51, + 100 / 4 = 25, + 100 / 20 = 5, total of 81 how you like me now.

Fulminating Mercury is 29 offset, 10 bards, 83 disciplina, 87 logitia. 10 / 2 = 5, + 83 / 4 = 21, + 87 / 20 = 4, total of 30. Close enough for horseshoes, hand grenades, and whores (bards).

Fulmine de la Tanka is 19 offset, 10 bards, 29 d, 26 log base 10 of 10. 10 / 2 = 5, + 29 / 4 = 7, + 26 / 20 = 1, total of 13. That didn't work. Hold that thought.

Fulmine maxin stats is 34 offset, 10 bairds and lairds, 92 d, 100 l. 10 / 2 = 5, + 92 / 4 = 23, + 100 / 20 = 5, total of 33. I like it. I like it a lot.

.

So let's do bard / 2, discipline / 4, logic / 20, and trunc at the end.

12 / 2 + 80 / 4 + 51 / 20 = 28.55 = 28
40 / 2 + 90 / 4 + 93 / 20 = 47.15 = 47
10 / 2 + 83 / 4 + 87 / 20 = 30.1 = 30 = still not 29, but still close
10 / 2 + 29 / 4 + 26 / 20 = 13.55 = 13 = still doesn't work, but who cares about negative bonuses
10 / 2 + 92 / 4 + 100 / 20 = 33 = still not 34, but still close

Do it. Do it.

[Tgo01]

Afraid that doesn't work for my other bard :(

My other bard has 91(10) discipline, 93(21) logic and 30 bard ranks and is offsetting 39 mana.

Your formula would put him at 41.

[Latrinsorm]

Close enough, jerk!

It could be bonus, but then Filet of Mine's 0 bonus stat is really weird. Perhaps there is a flat penalty for being a lazy elf?

[Tgo01]

Why settle for close enough when you can aim for perfection?

Here are some more stats, I got my bard killed and checked his mana offset as his stats started to recover. So with his bard ranks staying at 30 the entire time here is how his offset was with his stats at the time.

The first one might be wrong though because I'm stupid. The rest are 100% accurate though, trust me on this.


Discipline (DIS): 48 (-1)
Logic (LOG): 31 (-14)
Offset 31


Discipline (DIS): 55 (2)
Logic (LOG): 35 (-12)
Offset 32


Discipline (DIS): 61 (5)
Logic (LOG): 39 (-10)
Offset 33


Discipline (DIS): 68 (9)
Logic (LOG): 43 (-8)
Offset 34


Discipline (DIS): 71 (10)
Logic (LOG): 45 (-7)
Offset 35


Discipline (DIS): 74 (12)
Logic (LOG): 47 (-6)
Offset 36


Discipline (DIS): 80 (15)
Logic (LOG): 51 (-5)
Offset 37

[Tenlaar]

Name: Tenlaar Race: Giantman Profession: Bard (not shown)
Discipline (DIS): 91 (20) ... 91 (20)
Logic (LOG): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)

Level 96, 117 Bard ranks.

Individual Renewal Costs:
1003 - 1
1006 - 16
1007 - 12
1009 - 4
1010 - 13
1011 - 4
1012 - 4
1014 - 5
1019 - 17
1025 - 15
Total: 91

Renewal Singing All But 1025: 76 (no penalty)
Renewal Adding 1025: 101 (10 penalty)

If I'm not mistaken, this means that I am offsetting 98 but your formula puts me at 86.

[Tgo01]

After going from 10 bard ranks all the way to 98 bard ranks with the exact same stats and set of skills I can say with 100% certainty that every 2 bard ranks reduces the multi song penalty by 1. Testing this sure went a lot faster after I realized that I didn't have to stop singing after every spell rank, "song status" automatically updated the renewal cost after each bard rank was added.

After I reached 98 bard ranks I went ahead and picked up some mental and elemental mana control, some more harness power ranks, air, manipulation and telepathy lore (while singing songs that made use of all three lores) and it didn't affect the renewal cost at all.

[Tgo01]

Name: Tenlaar Race: Giantman Profession: Bard (not shown)
Discipline (DIS): 91 (20) ... 91 (20)
Logic (LOG): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)

Level 96, 117 Bard ranks.

Individual Renewal Costs:
1003 - 1
1006 - 16
1007 - 12
1009 - 4
1010 - 13
1011 - 4
1012 - 4
1014 - 5
1019 - 17
1025 - 15
Total: 91

Renewal Singing All But 1025: 76 (no penalty)
Renewal Adding 1025: 101 (10 penalty)

If I'm not mistaken, this means that I am offsetting 98 but your formula puts me at 86.

Actually in your case his formula seems to be working perfectly.

You're singing 10 songs, first 2 are free so 8*12 is 96. If we add up all of those individual song costs that is 91 so assuming you had full multi song penalty it should cost you 187 to renew all of your songs, since it only costs you 101 that means you offset 86 of the penalty.

[Tenlaar]

Ok, the problem there was that Krakiipedia says it kicks in after the first song, not the second. That does indeed make it work for me.

[Latrinsorm]

Here are some more stats, I got my bard killed and checked his mana offset as his stats started to recover. So with his bard ranks staying at 30 the entire time here is how his offset was with his stats at the time.For devising such an elegant solution, I will look at your data.

If we do Dis / 6 instead of Dis / 4, stick with Log / 20, and say that we get a flat 6 for being so damn pretty, then our results go like...

10 9.55
11 10.92
12 12.12
13 13.48
14 14.08
15 14.68
16 15.88

Where the first column is the remaining offset and the second column is the two values summed without internal rounding, we round normally and get our result. Let's also go through each posted example in the thread...

Post n - bard, disc, logic, offset; offset - bard/2 - 6, disc / 6 + log / 20

Post 1 - 40, 90, 93, 47; 21, 19.65
Post 3 - 12, 90, 89, 30; 18, 19.45

And we see a problem. Brad's Disc bonus is much lower, so it must be bonus and not stat. However, since we know now that we have bard / 2, our equations are reduced to...

a * 20 + b * 17 = 27
a * 10 + b * 19 = 24
b * (17 - 38) = (27 - 48)
b = 1
a * 20 + 17 = 27
a = .5

...huh. Does it work for Lumi?

101 * .5 + 25 * .5 + 25 * 1 = 88

...no it does not, and it doesn't work for Terry's data at all.

.

Ok, let's look at the racial bonuses. Cap has 0 Dis -5 Log, Brad has -10 Dis 0 Log, Lumi has 0 Dis +5 Log, Fulmine has -10 Dis 0 Log, Terrence has 0 Dis -5 Log. Hence we should be able to go between Terrence and Cap for sure, let's do that.

a * 80 + b * 51 = 22 (T)
a * 68 + b * 43 = 19 (T)
b * (51 - 43 * 80/68) = (22 - 19 * 80/68)
b = -.86
a = (22 - 51 * -.86) / 80
a = .82

That makes no sense, so let's try bonuses.

a * 15 + b * -5 = 22
a * 9 + b * -8 = 19
b * (-5 + 8 * 15/9) = (22 - 19 * 15/9)
b = -1.16
a = (22 - -5 * -1.16) / 15
a = 1.08

Again that makes no sense. Let's try setting negative bonuses to zero.

a * 0 + b * 0 = 16 (that is to say, 16 offset for free.)
This gives values for a between .5 and .333.
Going to Capn's 20-16-27, we get values for b between .271 and .063.

Ok, now let's look at Brad and Fulmine.

Fulmine's 0 bonus data is 13 ranks, 21 offset. This suggests those people's free offset is 15. Then we have...

a * 10 + b * 19 = (30 - 6 bard - 15 free) = 9
a * 16 + b * 25 = (34 - 6 bard - 15 free) = 13
b * (25 - 19 * 16/10) = (13 - 9 * 16/10)
b = .259
a = (13 - .259 * 25) / 16
a = .408

Now we're getting somewhere. Let's try b = .25, a = .4, only looking at positive bonuses, giving 16 free offset to 0/-5 and 15 to -10/0...

capn: 16 free + 40/2 bard + 20*.4 disc + 16*.25 log = 48 != 47
brad: 15 + 12/2 + 10*.4 + 19*.25 = 29.75 = 30
fulmine: 15 + 13/2 + 16*.4 + 25*.25 = 34.15 = 34
terrence: 16 + 30/2 + 15*.4 = 37 = 37
tenlaar: 16 + 117/2 + 20*.4 + 20*.25 = 87.5 != 86

So I don't know. I don't know, Terrence!

[Tgo01]

So I don't know. I don't know, Terrence!

:(

[Latrinsorm]

We've got bard ranks at least. See if you can increase one stat at a time, that would be the next ticket.

[Tgo01]

I bet you thought I had given up on this but then suddenly BAM! I roll up a Sylvan bard and level him to 7 just to test some more shit out.

Alright so I figured with a level 7 bard a Sylvan would have the absolute lowest DIS/LOG stat and bonuses. First things first, even at level 7 with 7 bard spell ranks it follows the same pattern as before, every even
numbered bard spell rank after this lowered the penalty by 1.

So with the following stats:

DIS 23(-18)
LOG 23(-13)

The bard was offsetting 10.

I went ahead and got him killed (anyone know of any other ways to lower DIS and LOG stats? Would be awesome to bring both stats to zero and test it) and these are the results.

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 14(-18)

The bard was offsetting 9.

As soon as his stats improved just slightly, to

DIS 15(-22)
LOG 15(-17)

The offset went back to 10.

I then used a fix stats to increase LOG by 7 figuring every 15 logic might have something to do with it, so...

DIS 23 (-18)
LOG 30 (-10)

And the offset was 11.

I got him killed and this happened:

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 18(-16)
Offset 10

DIS 21(-19)
LOG 27(-11)
Offset 11

So to recap, with bard ranks always staying at 7

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 14(-18)
Offset 9

DIS 15(-22)
LOG 15(-17)
Offset 10

DIS 23(-18)
LOG 23(-13)
Offset 10

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 18(-16)
Offset 10

DIS 21(-19)
LOG 27(-11)
Offset 11

DIS 23 (-18)
LOG 30 (-10)
Offset 11

This means one of two things:

LOG going from 14 to 15 reduces the penalty by 1. LOG going from 15 to 27 reduces the penalty another 1.

Or

LOG+DIS total going from 28 to 30 reduces penalty by 1. LOG+DIS total going from 30 to 48 reduces the penalty another 1. Or some sort of formula that uses both stats instead of each stat individually.

I'm pretty sure his stats were coming back 1 point at a time when recovering but I guess it's possible his logic jumped from 23 to 27 in one pulse so it's possible at 24, 25 or 26 logic the penalty would have been lowered by one. I don't think this is how it happened but I guess it's possible.

I still have four fix stats to use. As soon as we get some ideas rolling here I'll use them to test this further.

[Latrinsorm]

I rolled up an idea for you! Hold one stat constant and increase the other stat a great deal.

[Tgo01]

I rolled up an idea for you! Hold one stat constant and increase the other stat a great deal.

You mean like one at 20 and one at 100? Are you still trying to help me or just fucking with me now? :p

I would have to level him up to 9 though to be able to sing a fourth song.

[DaCapn]

Could always see how it progresses with DIS/LOG stat enhancers. I don't have either but that would help testing whether it's stat or stat bonus which causes. Also, I checked and I haven't leveled my bard since this thread. Maybe I'll crush with him a bit and see if I can't get more data points.

[Tgo01]

Yeah we could definitely use more data points because this is driving me crazy now.

I'm beginning to think Latrin was right earlier when he said we must be missing a variable, maybe race has something to do with it.

Assuming I didn't mess up when keeping track of this stuff look at my Giantman figures:

DIS 68(9)
LOG 43(-8)
Offset 34

DIS 71(10)
LOG 45(-7)
Offset 35

Only takes 3 DIS and 2 LOG to increase offset by 1.

Now my Sylvan:

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 18(-16)
Offset 10

DIS 21(-19)
LOG 27(-11)
Offset 11

Takes 7 DIS and 9 LOG to increase offset by 1. Either there is a variable missing, low stats/negative bonuses help less than higher stats/positive bonuses or there is some sort of reverse diminishing returns going on here.

[DaCapn]

I always wondered a bit if there was a level component, the same way the bard song duration gets a bonus that's non-linearly dependent upon level.

[Tgo01]

I always wondered a bit if there was a level component, the same way the bard song duration gets a bonus that's non-linearly dependent upon level.

It's possible, but how would that work? Both tests I did the level of the bard remained the same. I guess something like every 5 levels makes discipline and logic more effective I suppose.

[Tgo01]

Thinking on it I'm not so sure level is a factor. Looking at your (DaCapn) data, mine, Lumi's and Fulmine's we can tell the following.

Assuming bard ranks are as simple as bard ranks/2 we can then subtract that figure from the total offset to see how much stats are affecting the offset, so we get:

Level 12 or 13 (Fulmine didn't mention what level he was when he posted these stats but his last posted level was 12 and his bard ranks are at 13 so I'm just assuming.)
DIS 29(-15)
LOG 26(-12)
Offset from stats 13

Level 7
DIS 23 (-18)
LOG 30 (-10)
Offset from stats 8

Even though the stats are pretty darn close the offset difference is 5, it looks like level might play a factor, however...

Level 40
DIS 90(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset from stats 27

Level 12 or 13
DIS 92(16)
LOG 100(25)
Offset from stats 28

Level 100 (again Lumi didn't mention level but he has 101 bard ranks so it's a safe assumption)
DIS: 100 (25)
LOG: 100 (30)
Offset from stats 31

Similar stats, huge level differences yet the offset from stats only swings 4 points.

ETA:

Tenlaar's level 94 bard:

DIS 91(20)
LOG 100(20)
Offset from stats 28, almost identical to Fulmine's level 12 or 13 bard.

[Latrinsorm]

You mean like one at 20 and one at 100? Are you still trying to help me or just fucking with me now? :p

I would have to level him up to 9 though to be able to sing a fourth song.Yes so one data point 20/20, one data point 20/100. A big step makes you less prone to seeing rounding. If every 12 bonus (for example) gives you 1 offset, but you happen to be 3 short and you increase your bonus 4, it looks like 4 bonus gives you 1 offset, but it was really 12.

[Whirlin]

You are currently singing: Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Mirrors

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 29 mana.


You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Mirrors

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 34 mana.


Discipline (DIS): 57 (-12) ... 57 (-12)
Aura (AUR): 98 (29) ... 98 (29)
Logic (LOG): 86 (18) ... 86 (18)
Intuition (INT): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Wisdom (WIS): 66 (8) ... 66 (8)
Influence (INF): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)



Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...30
Bard Base.........22

I know there's been some talk over total offset, first/last/whatnot... so I'd rather just post my raw rather than trying to calculate out the current offset....

[Tgo01]

So Whirlin looks like:

32 total offset, 11 coming from spells

DIS 57(-12)
LOG 86(18)
21 offset from stats

By comparison here is my bard with a very similar DIS stat and a much lower LOG stat:

DIS 55(2)
LOG 35(-12)
17 offset from stats

[Tgo01]

Tenlaar's level 94 bard:

DIS 91(20)
LOG 100(20)
Offset from stats 28

Fulmine's level 12 or 13 bard
DIS 92(16)
LOG 100(25)
Offset from stats 28

I think we can rule level out.

This is interesting though:

DaCapn's bard
DIS 90(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset from stats 27

My other other bard
DIS 91(10)
LOG 93(21)
Offset from stats 24

Exact same logic stat, my bard's DIS is 1 point higher yet DaCapn's bard is offsetting 3 more points via stats. Maybe stat bonuses do play a part.

[Whirlin]

It almost follows a seed 3 for each bonus... But the DIS 91 (10), Log 93 (21) doesn't match it...
If it weren't for that 10/21... it could also be just simply bonus/5...


Based on the earlier postings, it almost seemed to floor at a +10 bonus, regardless of stats... or am I crazy? When the 14/18 was replying with a 10 offset...

[Tgo01]

It almost follows a seed 3 for each bonus... But the DIS 91 (10), Log 93 (21) doesn't match it...
If it weren't for that 10/21... it could also be just simply bonus/5...


Based on the earlier postings, it almost seemed to floor at a +10 bonus, regardless of stats... or am I crazy? When the 14/18 was replying with a 10 offset...

The 14/18 was 10 total offset, 3 was coming from spells. I also posted 14/14 with 9 total offset (3 from spells also.) But it is possible there is a flat bonus regardless of what the stats look like, which makes this all the more difficult to figure out.

[Whirlin]

There definitely appear to be a flat bonus, paired with a non-linear growth... One of the things that caught my eye when I was reading simu's information on it is that it gets 'more difficult as you have more spells on'... which would hint at diminishing returns every 12 points from stats... ie: different equations every 12 bonus?

I dunno, something to think about.

Sorry to bother you, but could you consolidate all of the stat and stat bonus info from the thread? Some of the posts were ambiguously labeled with whether or not the bonuses were just from stats, or from stats/spells, etc.. Sorry, got a little lost in the data, and want to help out.

[Tgo01]

There definitely appear to be a flat bonus, paired with a non-linear growth... One of the things that caught my eye when I was reading simu's information on it is that it gets 'more difficult as you have more spells on'... which would hint at diminishing returns every 12 points from stats... ie: different equations every 12 bonus?

I thought that was strange too but I think they just worded it weird and it just means the more songs you have on the worse the penalty.


Sorry to bother you, but could you consolidate all of the stat and stat bonus info from the thread? Some of the posts were ambiguously labeled with whether or not the bonuses were just from stats, or from stats/spells, etc.. Sorry, got a little lost in the data, and want to help out.

You read my mind, I was just working on that :p

[Tgo01]

Maybe I'll try to get my bard to level 10 when he's gifting again so I can do what Latrin suggested up there.

In the meantime I've compiled the following list from all of the data in this thread so far. I'm assuming bard ranks is a simple ranks/2 rounded down so I've subtracted the bard ranks bonus from the total offset given from that person so the offset listed under each set of stats is the offset coming from just the stats. I have three lists, the first is in order from offset, the second is for the combined total of the stat bonuses and the last is the combined total of the stats.


Offset

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 14(-18)
Offset 6

DIS 15(-22)
LOG 15(-17)
Offset 7

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 18(-16)
Offset 7

DIS 23(-18)
LOG 23 (-13)
Offset 7

DIS 21(-19)
LOG 27(-11)
Offset 8

DIS 23(-18)
LOG 30(-10)
Offset 8

DIS 29(-15)
LOG 26(-12)
Offset 13

DIS 50(-5)
LOG 50(0)
Offset 15

DIS 60(0)
LOG 49(0)
Offset 15

DIS 55(2)
LOG 35(-12)
Offset 17

DIS 61(5)
LOG 39(-10)
Offset 18

DIS 68(9)
LOG 43(-8)
Offset 19

DIS 71(10)
LOG 45(-7)
Offset 20

DIS 57(-12)
LOG 86(18)
Offset 21

DIS 74(12)
LOG 47(-6)
Offset 21

DIS 62(6)
LOG 66(13)
Offset 22

DIS 80(15)
LOG 51(-5)
Offset 22

DIS 83(11)
LOG 87(18)
Offset 24

DIS 90(10)
LOG 92(21)
Offset 24

DIS 91(10)
LOG 93(21)
Offset 24

DIS 84(12)
LOG 87(18)
Offset 25

DIS 90(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset 27

DIS 91(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset 27

DIS 91(20)
LOG 93(17) (+1 LOG bonus enhancisve being used)
Offset 27

DIS 92(16)
LOG 100(25)
Offset 28

DIS 91(20)
LOG 100(20)
Offset 28

DIS 100(25)
LOG 100(30)
Offset 31

I've bolded the ones that seem out of place. In both cases the same set of three stats are out of place, maybe those three were calculated wrong? Other than that as the stat total and bonus total goes up so does the offset bonus.

[Whirlin]

holy crap, that's more data points than I was anticipating... although, not gonna lie... I love excel, and I'm looking forward to cracking the code!


ahh... and now just noticing it's three sets of the same data points... ohh well, still fun

[Riltus]

Here's another data set and it's an outlier.

I. Level 10, Human, w/ 10 bard songs:


Name|Stat|Bonus
STR|87|(23)
CON|73|(11)
DEX|76|(13)
AGI|78|(14)
DIS|62|(6)
AUR|78|(14)
LOG|66|(13)
INT|37|(-1)
WIS|60|(5)
INF|80|(15)


Spell|Renewal|Calculated|Measured|Offset
1003 Fortitude|1|1|1|0
1006 Luck|3|4|4|0
1007 Triumph|5|21 (9 + 12)|9|12
1009 Shield|4|37 (13 + 24)|13|24
1010 Valor|3|52 (16 + 36)|25|27

Total offset w/ 5 songs = 27
Bard ranks offset = 5 (10/2)
Measured Stat offset = 22 (27 - 5)
Calculated stat offset if: (66 * .15) + (62 * .15) = 18 or 19 depending on rounding
Difference [Measured (22) - Calculated (18 or 19)]: 3 or 4

II. Same character at level 11 w/ 12 bard songs (same stats as above)


Spell|Renewal|Calculated|Measured|Offset
1003 Fortitude|1|1|1|0
1006 Luck|3|4|4|0
1007 Triumph|7|23 (11 + 12)|11|12
1009 Shield|4|39 (15 + 24)|15|24
1010 Valor|3|54 (18 + 36)|26|28
1011 Peace|4|70 (22 + 48)|42|28

Total offset w/ 5 songs = 28
Bard ranks offset = 6 (12/2)
Measured Stat offset = 22 (28 - 6)
Calculated stat offset if: (66 * .15) + (62 * .15) = 18 or 19 depending on rounding
Difference [Measured (22) - Calculated (18 or 19)]: 3 or 4

There's a gremlin somewhere!!

Mark

[Tgo01]

Hey Riltus don't suppose that bard is still within 30 days and you wouldn't mind using some of his free fix stats? :p

[Whirlin]

I'm also hesitant to accept the level 11 data... unless we have some clear evidence earlier on in the tread about overtraining in bard ranks still helping out renewal costs... And does it round up or down? Not sure.

[Tgo01]

I'm also hesitant to accept the level 11 data... unless we have some clear evidence earlier on in the tread about overtraining in bard ranks still helping out renewal costs... And does it round up or down? Not sure.

Overtraining in bard ranks helps for sure, my level 49 bard was seeing benefits from bard ranks all the way up to 98 ranks. It always rounds down.

[Whirlin]

kk, I'll take those into account...

I'm noticing a major outlier at 92(15) 100(25) with a 18 stat offset... I don't think that could have possibly been measured correctly. 28 offset would be a lot more in line with expected values.

The other two that stand out as weird are:
55(2) and 35 (-12) with a 17 stat offset
and 61(5) and 39 (-10) with an 18 stat offset.

Other than that, I think I'm relatively close to coming up with a testable model... I've managed to fit the very low tier (like... Stats <60)... There's a huge gap in data between the sum being 55 and 90 that adds in some complexity...

[Whirlin]

Still incomplete... I'll work on it more tomorrow:

But something along the lines of

10+
Rounddown ((Total Stats - 50) /10) (Ignore this part for total stats <50)
+ Rounddown ((Total Bonus)/10)

It's close, but ends up being very wonky when one is positive, and one is negative.

I need to play with it a little bit... but that appears fairly close to the solution

[Tgo01]

I'm noticing a major outlier at 92(15) 100(25) with a 18 stat offset... I don't think that could have possibly been measured correctly. 28 offset would be a lot more in line with expected values.

You might have wrote that down wrong, I have that one listed as 28 offset in my charts.


The other two that stand out as weird are:
55(2) and 35 (-12) with a 17 stat offset
and 61(5) and 39 (-10) with an 18 stat offset.

I have the 55/35/17 one down as one I noticed that seemed off too.

[Tgo01]

Well here is some more data from my other other bard recovering from a death.

Here is the relevant data.


DIS 55(-8)
LOG 56(3)
Offset 18

DIS 61(-5)
LOG 62(6)
Offset 19

DIS 73(1)
LOG 75(12)
Offset 20

DIS 77(3)
LOG 79(14)
Offset 21

DIS 81(5)
LOG 82(16)
Offset 22

DIS 84(7)
LOG 86(18)
offset 23

DIS 88(9)
LOG 90(20)
Offset 24

Here is all the data I collected in case someone has similar stats so we can compare the offsets and whatnot.


DIS 55(-8)
LOG 56(3)
Offset 18

DIS 57(-7)
LOG 58(4)
Offset 18

DIS 59(-6)
LOG 60(5)
Offset 18

DIS 61(-5)
LOG 62(6)
Offset 19

DIS 62(-4)
LOG 64(7)
Offset 19

DIS 64(-3)
LOG 66(8)
Offset 19

DIS 66(-2)
LOG 67(8)
Offset 19

DIS 68(-1)
LOG 69(9)
Offset 19

DIS 70(0)
LOG 71(10)
Offset 19

DIS 71(0)
LOG 73(11)
Offset 19

DIS 73(1)
LOG 75(12)
Offset 20

DIS 75(2)
LOG 77(13)
Offset 20

DIS 77(3)
LOG 79(14)
Offset 21

DIS 79(4)
LOG 80(15)
Offset 21

DIS 81(5)
LOG 82(16)
Offset 22

DIS 84(7)
LOG 86(18)
offset 23

DIS 86(8)
LOG 88(19)
Offset 23

DIS 88(9)
LOG 90(20)
Offset 24

DIS 90(10)
LOG 92(21)
Offset 24

Now for the real confusing part, these are my two bards where they have the same offset from stats but have completely different stats. When this testing was done they both had 30 bard spell ranks, the stats with lower logic came from my level 47 giantman while the higher stats are from my level 38 dark elf. Maybe race plays a factor? I have no idea anymore :(


DIS 55(-8)
LOG 56(3)
Offset 18

DIS 61(5)
LOG 39(-10)
Offset 18

DIS 61(-5)
LOG 62(6)
Offset 19

DIS 68(9)
LOG 43(-8)
Offset 19

DIS 73(1)
LOG 75(12)
Offset 20

DIS 71(10)
LOG 45(-7)
Offset 20

DIS 77(3)
LOG 79(14)
Offset 21

DIS 74(12)
LOG 47(-6)
Offset 21

DIS 81(5)
LOG 82(16)
Offset 22

DIS 80(15)
LOG 51(-5)
Offset 22

I'm thoroughly confused.

[Whirlin]

It's some weird anomaly that takes place when one stat bonus is positive, and the other is negative... it's completely messing with whatever model I try to come up with...

It's almost as though when one is positive, one is negative, their calculated individually, and set to a 5 threshold per +- point, whereas when they're both positive or both negative, added and set to a 10 threshold... Still not perfect, but don't have my spreadsheet in front of me.

Geeze... Maybe it would be easier to script a bard up to level 8 or so, and fixstats a couple times, rinse, and repeat...

[Loyrl]

Level 33 Bard

Discipline (DIS): 90 (10) ... 90 (10)
Logic (LOG): 92 (21) ... 92 (21)

Your spell lists:
Minor Elemental...25
Bard Base.........20

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song

The effects of your lyrical song have almost faded. Your song will renew in a moment. Your current renewal cost is 1 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Kai's Triumph Song

The effects of your lyrical medley are fading. Your medley will renew shortly. Your current renewal cost is 13 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor

The effects of your magical medley have faintly begun to wane. It will be about a minute before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 17 mana.
You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Mirrors
The effects of your magical medley have faintly begun to wane. It will be a couple of minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 25 mana.

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be a few minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 31 mana.

[Whirlin]

The bonuses of 20 and 16 being 27 compared to 20 and 21 being 26 implies that the tiers in positive bonuses are every +5... The 84 and 87 base stats being 1 less (even though bonuses add up to 30) implies a tier at 180 total stats...

I can sooo crack this later.

[Tgo01]

Alright so I did Loyrl's bard wrong before, here are the correct stats:

DIS 90(10)
LOG 92(21)
Offset 24

I noticed something was very off when his bard had the exact same stats and bonuses as my bard but the offset was different, but now his bard that is 6 levels lower and with 10 less bard ranks has the exact same offset with the exact same stats. I guess we can rule level out now for sure.

[Tgo01]

I just realized I had a mistake in my previous chart. I had:

DIS 91(10)
LOG 93(21)
Offset 27

When it should be:

DIS 91(10)
LOG 93(21)
Offset 24

However:

DIS 91(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset 27

Is correct (stats are the same but bonuses are different.)

I've double checked the rest of the information I had on the chart and that was the only mistake I found. I also added information people gave us since I made the chart and a couple other things.


DIS 14(-23)
LOG 14(-18)
Offset 6

DIS 15(-22)
LOG 15(-17)
Offset 7

DIS 14(-23)
LOG 18(-16)
Offset 7

DIS 23(-18)
LOG 23 (-13)
Offset 7

DIS 21(-19)
LOG 27(-11)
Offset 8

DIS 23(-18)
LOG 30(-10)
Offset 8

DIS 29(-15)
LOG 26(-12)
Offset 13

DIS 50(-5)
LOG 50(0)
Offset 15

DIS 60(0)
LOG 49(0)
Offset 15

DIS 55(2)
LOG 35(-12)
Offset 17

DIS 61(5)
LOG 39(-10)
Offset 18

DIS 68(9)
LOG 43(-8)
Offset 19

DIS 71(10)
LOG 45(-7)
Offset 20

DIS 57(-12)
LOG 86(18)
Offset 21

DIS 74(12)
LOG 47(-6)
Offset 21

DIS 62(6)
LOG 66(13)
Offset 22

DIS 80(15)
LOG 51(-5)
Offset 22

DIS 83(11)
LOG 87(18)
Offset 24

DIS 90(10)
LOG 92(21)
Offset 24

DIS 91(10)
LOG 93(21)
Offset 24

DIS 84(12)
LOG 87(18)
Offset 25

DIS 90(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset 27

DIS 91(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset 27

DIS 91(20)
LOG 93(17) (+1 LOG bonus enhansive)
Offset 27

DIS 92(16)
LOG 100(25)
Offset 28

DIS 91(20)
LOG 100(20)
Offset 28

DIS 100(25)
LOG 100(30)
Offset 31

[Latrinsorm]

4 modifiers: Dis Stat (A), Dis Bonus (B), Log Stat (C), Log Bonus (D)

We need 4 equations to solve simultaneously, and we have 27, so let's just go top to bottom.

1) 14 A - 23 B + 14 C - 18 D = 6
2) 55 A + 2 B + 35 C - 12 D = 17
3) 90 A + 10 B + 92 C + 21 D = 24
4) 100 A + 25 B + 100 C + 30 D = 31

3*(2) - 2*(1)
5) 137 A + 52 B + 77 C = 39

4*(3) + 7*(2)
6) 745 A + 54 B + 613 C = 215

7*(4) - 10*(3)
7) -200 A + 75 B - 220 C = -23

.

613*(5) - 77*(6)
8) 26616 A + 27718 B = 7352

220*(6) + 613*(7)
9) 41300 A + 57855 B = 33201

.

57855*(9) - 27718*(8)
10) 395115280 A = -494915358
A = -1.25ish, so we already know it's probably not right
B = 1.5ish
C = 1.75ish
D = -1.82715

The arithmetic all checks out, so my guess is a separate modifier for negative bonuses, which also makes sense. If we restrict ourselves to only positive bonuses, we are down to 11 data points, but that's still more than enough. Skipping to the end, we get...
A = -2.5, so still not right.

.

Another sort of data we could try and get would be for people to have 100s in both stats but very different racial bonuses. Ideal cases there are Half-Krol to Human (both 0 discipline, -10 to +5 logic) and Halfling to Dwarf (both 5 logic, -5 to 10 disc).

[Whirlin]

Sadly, that's assuming linear across the length... I think we need to further subdivide the equation by stats thresholds and bonus thresholds.

Total Stats <50, 50-100, 101-150, 151-200
Stat bonuses: both possitive, both negative, both 0, one negative one positive, one positive one 0, one negative one zero

sadly, I forgot algebra... that would have been a stupidly easier method to go... I'll work on it after work.

[Tgo01]

Some sets of stats that have similar stat numbers but different stat bonuses and offset values:


DIS 84(7)
LOG 86(18)
offset 23

DIS 84(12)
LOG 87(18)
Offset 25


DIS 62(-4)
LOG 64(7)
Offset 19

DIS 62(6)
LOG 66(13)
Offset 22


DIS 91(10)
LOG 93(21)
Offset 24

DIS 91(20)
LOG 93(16)
Offset 27

[DaCapn]

We should try to round up some LOG/DIS enhancives. Ideally +1,2,4,8 to each which can be worn together. Then we could establish the LOG/DIS offset progression. From there, we should be able to figure out what's giving us that offset.

[Tgo01]

We should try to round up some LOG/DIS enhancives. Ideally +1,2,4,8 to each which can be worn together. Then we could establish the LOG/DIS offset progression. From there, we should be able to figure out what's giving us that offset.

That would be awesome.

[Tgo01]

What would be nice also is if we had some more bards with 100 LOG and 100 DIS but with different bonuses than Lumi post their stats. Maybe we could figure out if the stat itself plays a role at all and if so how. It also might point to a cap of sorts.

[Latrinsorm]

Hey Terrence that's a great suggestion, can you be more specific on how to generate those different bonuses? Maybe "Ideal cases there are Half-Krol to Human (both 0 discipline, -10 to +5 logic) and Halfling to Dwarf (both 5 logic, -5 to 10 disc)." YOU PLAGIARIST. >:[

[Tgo01]

Hey Terrence that's a great suggestion, can you be more specific on how to generate those different bonuses? Maybe "Ideal cases there are Half-Krol to Human (both 0 discipline, -10 to +5 logic) and Halfling to Dwarf (both 5 logic, -5 to 10 disc)." YOU PLAGIARIST. >:[

Who let you out of your cage? Back! Back!

Besides Lumi's bard is human so :p!

[Latrinsorm]

You thought you could punish the typist. You thought wrong.

[Whirlin]

I'd rather see more raw data, and less people providing their own calculated offsets...

I tried running a few different types of equations, through both algebra, and random excelness, and I couldn't find any potential correlation with those numbers provided for similar bonuses, different offsets, on page 8. I'm starting to question the integrity of the data that doesn't have full INFO, Spell, and gradual SONG Status'es. One simple rounding error, or miscalculating the cost of their one of their spellsongs could be tossing a wrench in the process.

[Tgo01]

Can anyone explain this one to me?

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song

Your song has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 3 mana.


Bard...............................| 3


Race: Half-Krolvin Profession: Bard (not shown)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 17367 Level: 3
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Constitution (CON): 91 (30) ... 91 (30)
Dexterity (DEX): 91 (20) ... 91 (20)
Agility (AGI): 90 (25) ... 90 (25)
Discipline (DIS): 23 (-13) ... 23 (-13)
Aura (AUR): 81 (15) ... 81 (15)
Logic (LOG): 28 (-21) ... 28 (-21)
Intuition (INT): 63 (6) ... 63 (6)
Wisdom (WIS): 71 (5) ... 71 (5)
Influence (INF): 33 (-13) ... 33 (-13)

Just to make sure song status wasn't just showing the wrong number I waited for his songs to renew and sure enough, 3 mana was taken off.

This is a Shattered bard, does that make a difference for some reason?

[Tgo01]

Oddly enough I brought his bard ranks up to 4 and his mana renewal dropped to 2, brought his bard ranks up to 6 and his mana renewal dropped to 1. Is there something we're missing here?

[Androidpk]

I just checked on my level 8 bard. I get 1 mana renewal for fortitude and 2 mana for kai's triumph song.

[EDubbs]

Half-elf 36 trains
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 92 (21) ... 92 (21)
Constitution (CON): 53 (1) ... 50 (0)
Dexterity (DEX): 85 (22) ... 85 (22)
Agility (AGI): 97 (33) ... 97 (33)
Discipline (DIS): 52 (-4) ... 52 (-4)
Aura (AUR): 97 (23) ... 97 (23)
Logic (LOG): 68 (9) ... 68 (9)
Intuition (INT): 73 (11) ... 73 (11)
Wisdom (WIS): 71 (10) ... 71 (10)
Influence (INF): 100 (30) ... 100 (30)

35 bard ranks

You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Sonic Armor
Song of Mirrors

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 32 mana.

Dunno if this helps at all ... but there ya go

[EDubbs]

and if I add 1012 to it:


You are currently singing: Fortitude Song
Kai's Triumph Song
Song of Valor
Sonic Weapon Song
Sonic Armor
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 47 mana

if I stop song of fortitude, mana renewal is 35 mana

[Tgo01]

Well here's what KRAKII from the officials had to say about all of this.


For the multi-song penalty, the primary factor that makes it grow is the number of songs being sung. The factors that make the penalty go down are number of songs known, discipline bonus and logic bonus, in that order.

GM Solli
Squares / Semis / Breakage" -- author obvious

So assuming things haven't changed and Simutronics just hasn't told us the penalty only goes by song ranks, discipline bonus and logic bonus.


I'm certain there's a problem in there somewhere, but it's hard to imagine of how much.

I didn't even think it was possible to generate MSP until you hit the third Song being sung, but I could find no documentation on this after all. (Technically the 2nd one would make it a 'medley', but at some point I thought I'd seen a GM say that the first three were freebies.) Given that most new Bards know that Song of Luck isn't even needed until the mid-20s at the earliest, and the three Sonic Equipments aren't as good as store-bought until around that same time [the flares might make up for lack of Enchant, but insufficient Lore means even those won't be too hot], that makes Fortitude + Kai's + Valor really the only ones being used on a regular basis until, best case, 19th level & Mirrors. At that point, with a possible four-Song medley, you start playing the Fortitude Game (sing it/stop it, wait for it to wear off, and sing it/stop it again) because the 3-mana casting cost is a lot less than the 1 renewal + gobs of MSP.

I never found the 0/0 point that could then be adjusted for racial benefits. Bearing in mind the fact that I did my research in GS3 (Elf could get up to a +40 CHarisma bonus, rather than only +35 INFluence), my findings were that:
! every two (2) Songs known were -1 MSP (this was observable & repeatable);
+ roughly every three (3) points of DIScipline bonus were -1 MSP
+ roughly every three or four (3-4) points of LOGic bonus were -1 MSP;
- MSP increases +12 mana-per-Song reliably except for certain bizarre circumstances.

Note: I believe the spell list order may have changed slightly at some point, because I do not record an 8-song medley until 15th level; it is theoretically possible to do at 14th level [Fortitude, Luck, Kai's, Shield, Valor, Peace, Weapon, Armor], but I may have been waiting due to mana limitations.
I could generate a 4-song Medley [Fortitude, Luck, Kai's and Shield] with +2MSP at 9th level/10 songs known.
Yet at 10th level/11 Songs that same medley was +1MSP [reduced because of increased Song research], but the 5th Song [+Valor] was only +9 beyond that.
At 11th level/12 Songs, medley4 was still +1 (no reduction), medley5 was still +9 more, and medley6 [+Peace] was now +12.
12th level/13 Songs, medley4 dropped to +0 (expected due to additional spell research), medley5 & medley 6 were still +12 each, and medley7 [+Weapon] was +12 more.
13th level's spell research reduced MSP by one as expected.
15th level's did the same, and medley8 was the expected +12 mana. At this point I had +43 additional renewal in MSP, and a 5:08 renewal.

[Tgo01]

I'm wondering, if the multisong penalty does indeed kick in for the very first song, and we've been assuming this whole time the first two songs are free, if we go back and add 24 offset to everyone's stats (the 2 songs we all thought was free) does that make a more observable pattern?

[DaCapn]

Well it would conflict with what the play.net docs say:

Most songs cost their level in Mana Points (MP) each time they are sung. For example, 1003 Fortitude Song, a level 3 spellsong, has a base cost of 3 mana. After the second song, there is an additional charge of MPs, added every renewal interval. This multi-song penalty applies any time the Bard is singing three or more songs, and increases dramatically with each additional song added. The increased cost for controlling multiple songs considers the number of songs sung, Bard circle songs known, Discipline, and Logic statistics.

Not that the play.net docs have a perfect track record.

[Androidpk]

Well it would conflict with what the play.net docs say:


Not that the play.net docs have a perfect track record.


You can say that again. According to their site dodge helps protect against manuever based attacks.

[Tgo01]

My bard is now level 6 with 3 bard ranks:

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song

Your song has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 2 mana.


Discipline (DIS): 26 (-12) ... 26 (-12)
Logic (LOG): 29 (-20) ... 29 (-20)

Since this bard is running around in Shattered and leveling up all on his own I can't say for sure what level/stats the "multi"song penalty was reduced from 3 to 2.

[Tgo01]

Got my Half-Krolvin bard up to level 11 to test some more stuff out.

Individual song costs:
1003 1
1006 3
1007 7
1009 4
1010 3
1011 4

Skills:
Harness Power......................| 108 26

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 12

Skills never changed during any of these tests. I have all of the boring information at the very end in case anyone wants to double check my numbers and calculations. Unfortunately at such a low level I couldn't get both stats to 100.

DIS 30(-10)
LOG 30(-20)
Offset from stats 12

DIS 100(25)
LOG 30(-20)
Offset from stats 23

DIS 30(-10)
LOG 100(15)
Offset from stats 17

DIS 100(25)
LOG 90(10)
Offset from stats 28

DIS 90(20)
LOG 100(15)
Offset from stats 27

DIS 50(0)
LOG 70(0)
Offset from stats 15

Boring stuff:


1003 1
1006 3
1007 7
1009 4
1010 3
1011 4

Harness Power......................| 108 26

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 12



Race: Half-Krolvin Profession: Bard (not shown)
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Constitution (CON): 93 (31) ... 93 (31)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 30 (-10) ... 30 (-10)
Aura (AUR): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)
Logic (LOG): 30 (-20) ... 30 (-20)
Intuition (INT): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Influence (INF): 41 (-9) ... 41 (-9)




You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song

Your song magic remains strong. It will be a few minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 11 mana.

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your song magic remains strong. It will be more than a minute before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 21 mana.

Offset total 18
Offset from spells 6
Offset from stats 12


Strength (STR): 31 (1) ... 31 (1)
Constitution (CON): 93 (31) ... 93 (31)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Aura (AUR): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)
Logic (LOG): 30 (-20) ... 30 (-20)
Intuition (INT): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Influence (INF): 41 (-9) ... 41 (-9)


You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor

Your song magic remains strong. It will be about a minute before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 25 mana.

Offset total 29
Offset from spells 6
Offset from stats 23



Strength (STR): 38 (4) ... 38 (4)
Constitution (CON): 93 (31) ... 93 (31)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 30 (-10) ... 30 (-10)
Aura (AUR): 83 (16) ... 83 (16)
Logic (LOG): 100 (15) ... 100 (15)
Intuition (INT): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Influence (INF): 41 (-9) ... 41 (-9)


You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 11 mana.

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 16 mana.

Offset total 23
Offset from spells 6
Offset from stats 17


Strength (STR): 63 (16) ... 63 (16)
Constitution (CON): 75 (22) ... 75 (22)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 100 (25) ... 100 (25)
Aura (AUR): 41 (-4) ... 41 (-4)
Logic (LOG): 90 (10) ... 90 (10)
Intuition (INT): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 45 (-7) ... 45 (-7)
Influence (INF): 41 (-9) ... 41 (-9)

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 15 mana.

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 20 mana.

Offset total 34
Offset from spells 6
Offset from stats 28

Strength (STR): 64 (17) ... 64 (17)
Constitution (CON): 75 (22) ... 75 (22)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 90 (20) ... 90 (20)
Aura (AUR): 41 (-4) ... 41 (-4)
Logic (LOG): 100 (15) ... 100 (15)
Intuition (INT): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 45 (-7) ... 45 (-7)
Influence (INF): 41 (-9) ... 41 (-9)

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 15 mana.

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor

The effects of your lyrical medley have almost faded. Your medley will renew in a moment. Your current renewal cost is 21 mana.

Offset total 33
Offset from spells 6
Offset from stats 27


Strength (STR): 81 (25) ... 81 (25)
Constitution (CON): 75 (22) ... 75 (22)
Dexterity (DEX): 93 (21) ... 93 (21)
Agility (AGI): 92 (26) ... 92 (26)
Discipline (DIS): 50 (0) ... 50 (0)
Aura (AUR): 41 (-4) ... 41 (-4)
Logic (LOG): 70 (0) ... 70 (0)
Intuition (INT): 65 (7) ... 65 (7)
Wisdom (WIS): 82 (11) ... 82 (11)
Influence (INF): 56 (-2) ... 56 (-2)

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 11 mana.

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song

Your medley has recently renewed, and it will be quite some time before the effects fade. Your current renewal cost is 18 mana.

Offset total 21
Offset from spells 6
Offset from stats 15

[Latrinsorm]

It would really be better if you got data that was as close together as possible. These big steps will hardly tell us anything. I appreciate the effort you put in but you did a really terrible job and you should feel bad about yourself. :[[[

+35 Dis bonus = 11 offset, ergo Dis bonus / 3
+35 Log bonus = 5 offset, ergo Log bonus / 7 (although it could conceivably be 6, which fits 3 better and no one has ever liked 7)

Checking from the - to the 0, we have +10 Dis bonus (3) and +20 Log bonus (3) but only 3 offset, so negative must be different from positive. Proven fact.

.

Now it would be ideal if you had 100/70 and 50/100 data points, and for completeness 30/70 and 50/30. With that said, it could be that the negative modifier is smaller than 3 and 7 respectively and the positive modifier is larger. We can even do weights...

DIS neg * 10/35 + DIS pos * 25/35 = 1/3
LOG neg * 20/35 + LOG pos * 10/35 = 1/6

Guessing with integer division 1/6 and 2/5 satisfy the top equation and 1/8 and 1/3 satisfy the bottom. Then we have...

- to 0: 10 / 6 + 20 / 8 = 1 + 2 = 3. So far so good.
- to high Dis: 10 / 6 + 15 * 2 / 5 = 1 + 6 = 7. Less good. We need to get a lot more out of that 15, let's try 2/3 from now on.
- to high Log: 20 / 8 + 15 / 3 = 2 + 5 = 7. Too high. Let's do 1/5 for posilog.

1/6, 2/3
1/8, 1/5

Moment of truth: -23 -18 = 6 to 25 30 = 31.
23/6 + 25 * 2/3 + 18/8 + 30/5 = 3 + 16 + 2 + 6 = 27

Getting closer, anyway.

.

I keep getting wild contradictions when trying to go between races, so I wonder if it uses stat instead and then throws a flat thing on due to racial bonus/penalty. Let's try that...

+70 Dis = 11 offset, Dis / 6
+70 Log = 5 offset, Log / 12 to follow shape of Dis

Then 0 to - goes 20 Dis + 40 Log, so 20 / 6 + 40 / 12 = 3 + 3 = 6, still too much. Maybe it uses bonus and double dips for race.

Awkward silence.

[Tgo01]

It would really be better if you got data that was as close together as possible. These big steps will hardly tell us anything. I appreciate the effort you put in but you did a really terrible job and you should feel bad about yourself. :[[[

That does it. You and me. Outside. Now.

[Tgo01]

Fulmine's bard:
DIS 60(0)
LOG 49(0)
Offset from stats 15

My half-krovlin bard:
DIS 50(0)
LOG 70(0)
Offset from stats 15

I don't think he ever said what race his bard was but we know it wasn't half krolvin and it was a race with -5 DIS. Since his stats are different from my bard and his race is different yet the stat bonuses are both the same and the offset is the same looks like race and stats aren't a factor.

Fulmine also had:
DIS 50(-5)
LOG 50(0)
Offset from stats 15

Lumi's bard:
DIS: 100(25)
LOG: 100(30)
Offset from stats 31

My bard:
DIS 100(25)
LOG 90(10)
Offset from stats 28

DIS 90(20)
LOG 100(15)
Offset from stats 27

[Latrinsorm]

Yeah that's pretty good (for me to poop on). We could say 20 Log = 3, so /6 or /7. That leaves 11 or 12 for 25 Dis, maybe /2. Let's do /2 and /6.

C:\Useles~1\TerrencesTerraces.xls

For all both positive bonuses it's pretty close but not quite. 6-13-7 is a major outlier, for instance. (7-3) / 13 = nearly a third, but for that to work then 20 Log would be almost 6.

I wonder if the modifier isn't fixed to a specific bonus but whichever one is higher? Then we could go 2/-12/2 to 18/-12/6 and say Prime Mod = 4/16 = .25, then we could go 18/-12/6 to 18/11/9 and say Inferior Mod = 3/23 = 1/7ish. But that turns out to be not even close. We also get a situation where 18/12 is more offset than 21/10, and that doesn't make sense.

.

We should probably control for race.

[Tgo01]

Alright I say it's time we revisited this topic and figure this thing out once and for all!

I uploaded a script, bard-renewal-test, that will automatically figure out exactly what your renewal offset is, it will list all relevant (or possibly relevant) information in a neat list and will also log this information in a text file. No more figuring out what the exact number is, no more worrying if you made a mistake, let this script do the work for you! Keep in mind your character's name is listed in the text file, this is just for informational purposes in case you have several bards you are tracking, simply don't share the name with everyone if you don't want us to know the name.

I'm 99% sure the script is accurate but I can't say for sure, I just tested it on my two bards. I wasn't able to test the results for low level bards so it might not work properly if your offset is higher than what you can currently test it with. I also wasn't able to test if your offset was a multiple of 12, which might screw up the numbers, it shouldn't but I can't say for sure because I couldn't test it. So it would be great if some people can test the script out and check to see if the numbers are accurate as well.

Here's my first entry:



******************************
Race: Dark Elf
Bard spell ranks: 76
DIS stat: 96
DIS bonus: 13
LOG stat: 97
LOG bonus: 23
Offset: 64
******************************

[MrMortimur]

Entry 1

Name: Lochiven
Race: Half-Elf
Level: 100
Bard spell ranks: 80
DIS stat: 100
DIS bonus: 20
LOG stat: 100
LOG bonus: 25
Offset: 68

Entry 2

Name:
Race: Elf
Level: 43
Bard spell ranks: 44
DIS stat: 93
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 93
LOG bonus: 21
Offset: 45

Entry 3

Name:
Race: Elf
Level: 15
Bard spell ranks: 15
DIS stat: 89
DIS bonus: 4
LOG stat: 89
LOG bonus: 19
Offset: 30

[Tgo01]

Thank ya for your data, MrMortimur!

Let's work off the assumption that there isn't a variable we're missing and every 2 bard ranks gives one offset. So we have:



DIS stat: 96
DIS bonus: 13
LOG stat: 97
LOG bonus: 23
Offset from stats: 26




DIS stat: 100
DIS bonus: 20
LOG stat: 100
LOG bonus: 25
Offset from stats: 28




DIS stat: 93
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 93
LOG bonus: 21
Offset from stats: 23




DIS stat: 89
DIS bonus: 4
LOG stat: 89
LOG bonus: 19
Offset from stats: 23


Ah ha! So going from 13 DIS bonus/23 LOG bonus to 20 DIS bonus/25 LOG bonus increases the offset by 2. Going from 4 DIS bonus/19 LOG bonus to 6 DIS bonus/21 LOG bonus does absolutely nothing while going from 6 DIS bonus/21 LOG bonus to 13 DIS bonus/23 LOG bonus increases the offset by 3.

I think the only thing we can conclude from this is I have no idea what's going on.

[Suppressed Poet]

The bard renewal formula is like posi-traction on a superbird. It is not for us to understand how it works, only to know that it simply does work.

[Tgo01]

But but but I wanna know! :(

Hey don't you have a bard SP? What you waiting for? Script => data => post.

[Suppressed Poet]

What does script mean?

[Tgo01]

What does script mean?

Download the script I uploaded to the repo, bard-renewal-test, run it and post the results.

Please and now, thank you.

ETA: Also I changed the script so it only lists your character's name in the log file, not the results in the game screen.

[Suppressed Poet]

Ok - I can do that. I'll play a bit tonight, run that, and post results. Don't ask me to try to interpret the data, but I'll be happy to contribute as a lab rat.

[Anebriated]

******************************
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 73
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 52
LOG bonus: 6
Offset: 85
******************************

Doesnt take enhancives into account?

Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 74 (17)

[Whirlin]

Thank ya for your data, MrMortimur!

I think the only thing we can conclude from this is I have no idea what's going on.

But, at least the information that we'll be receiving is consistent... Whereas only receiving the footnote after potentially flawed calculations resulted in potential outliers.

Will run when I get home, and dust off the old correlation sheet I was working on.

[Tgo01]

Doesnt take enhancives into account?

Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 74 (17)

Well that's not good. Anyone have any idea what lich code refers to enhanced stat and bonus. I'm on my phone but I think what I used was log.stat[0] for stat and log.stat[1] for the bonus. I wonder if 2 and 3 is enhanced stats.

I guess in the meantime if you are wearing enhancives please note your enhanced logic and discipline stats. My stats did not use enhancives.

[Tgo01]

Either my script screwed up somewhere or there is something going on with Anebriated's character beyond just his enhanced stats.

Even with his enhanced logic his logic and bard spell ranks is still lower than the data we have already yet his offset is a good 20 points higher.

[Anebriated]

manip lore? overtraining HP? training in both EMC and MMC? dunno how to compare since I dont know how you guys are trained. mine is a pure. dont laugh, i know his stats are awful...


Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (10) ... 100 (10)
Constitution (CON): 79 (24) ... 79 (24)
Dexterity (DEX): 97 (38) ... 97 (38)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 105 (22)
Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 74 (17)
Intuition (INT): 55 (12) ... 55 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 80 (15) ... 81 (15)
Influence (INF): 100 (20) ... 116 (28)
Mana: 221 Silver: 1973




Moider (at level 62), your current skill bonuses and ranks (including all modifiers) are:
Skill Name | Current Current
| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 160 60
Shield Use.........................| 164 64
Brawling...........................| 164 64
Physical Fitness...................| 140 40
Arcane Symbols.....................| 4 0
Magic Item Use.....................| 45 9
Harness Power......................| 190 90
Elemental Mana Control.............| 120 30
Mental Mana Control................| 140 40
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 7 1
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 160 60
Perception.........................| 160 60
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 50 10

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 40

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 59

[Tgo01]

Would you mind taking your enhacives off and try running the script again and post the results?

I think my one bard has a fix skills he can use, I'll try training him in the skills you have to see if that helps his offset at all.

[Anebriated]

******************************
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 73
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 52
LOG bonus: 6
Offset: 50
******************************


Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (10) ... 100 (10)
Constitution (CON): 79 (24) ... 79 (24)
Dexterity (DEX): 97 (38) ... 97 (38)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 52 (6)
Intuition (INT): 55 (12) ... 55 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 80 (15) ... 80 (15)
Influence (INF): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)




| Bonus Ranks
Armor Use..........................| 160 60
Shield Use.........................| 164 64
Brawling...........................| 164 64
Physical Fitness...................| 140 40
Magic Item Use.....................| 45 9
Harness Power......................| 190 90
Elemental Mana Control.............| 120 30
Mental Mana Control................| 140 40
Spiritual Lore - Summoning.........| 7 1
Mental Lore - Manipulation.........| 160 60
Perception.........................| 160 60
Climbing...........................| 120 30
Swimming...........................| 50 10

Spell Lists
Minor Elemental....................| 40

Spell Lists
Bard...............................| 59

[Anebriated]

so I got curious and pulled out his shield to test something and ran it again... All it really added was to Influence and I was not holding this while wearing the other enhancives. shot it up 22 points but not to where it was before.

******************************
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 73
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 52
LOG bonus: 6
Offset: 83
******************************



Name: Moider Race: Halfling Profession: Bard (shown as: Battlechanter)
Gender: Male Age: 0 Expr: 3675147 Level: 62
Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (10) ... 100 (10)
Constitution (CON): 79 (24) ... 79 (24)
Dexterity (DEX): 97 (38) ... 97 (38)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 100 (20)
Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 52 (6)
Intuition (INT): 55 (12) ... 55 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 80 (15) ... 80 (15)
Influence (INF): 100 (20) ... 107 (23)

[Tgo01]

Something is up for sure, your offset shouldn't be dropping 30 points from that little bit of boost to your logic. Whether the problem is with my script or something else I don't know.

If you still feel like helping would you mind putting your enhancives back on, waiting for full mana and running the script again? I had a problem with the numbers being off if you didn't have enough mana to sing the song but I thought I fixed that.

[Tgo01]

Ohh you had your shield out...I wonder if that screwed with it because it attempts to sing sonic shield and weapon but it probably can't sing those if you have something in your hands yet the script thinks it was cast.

When I get home I'll make sure the script empties your hands before running the test.

[Anebriated]

did you put the fixed copy on the repo?

[Anebriated]

******************************
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 73
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 52
LOG bonus: 6
Offset: 85
******************************


Normal (Bonus) ... Enhanced (Bonus)
Strength (STR): 100 (10) ... 100 (10)
Constitution (CON): 79 (24) ... 79 (24)
Dexterity (DEX): 97 (38) ... 97 (38)
Agility (AGI): 100 (35) ... 100 (35)
Discipline (DIS): 73 (6) ... 73 (6)
Aura (AUR): 100 (20) ... 105 (22)
Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 74 (17)
Intuition (INT): 55 (12) ... 55 (12)
Wisdom (WIS): 80 (15) ... 81 (15)
Influence (INF): 100 (20) ... 123 (31)

[Anebriated]

anything else I can do at this point? glad I could contribute and fuck up everything :D

[Anebriated]

Seems like influence is a part of the equation since thats the only thing I changed for one trial. I would be interested in seeing that stat added to the script.


Ohh you had your shield out...I wonder if that screwed with it because it attempts to sing sonic shield and weapon but it probably can't sing those if you have something in your hands yet the script thinks it was cast.

When I get home I'll make sure the script empties your hands before running the test.

Missed this before. I only used the shield for one of the tests and I dont think I posted that one up anyway(it was the random 22 point one). Its a good point though, hadnt even thought about that being a problem.

[Tgo01]

anything else I can do at this point? glad I could contribute and fuck up everything :D

I think I figured out the problem, you're probably wearing armor like a bad bard instead of using sonic armor! :p

So the script tried to cast sonic armor, failed, but the script thought you were singing sonic armor. I removed sonic armor from the test so this should no longer be a problem. The new script is up on the repo. Everyone please make sure you have version B before posting any results.



Version B
Number of songs: 8
Race: Dark Elf
Level: 76
Bard spell ranks: 76
DIS stat: 96
DIS bonus: 13
LOG stat: 97
LOG bonus: 23
Offset: 64


The version is included in the stats at the end so we can be sure someone is using the latest version when sharing results, please do not delete this line. Also number of songs shows how many songs the script thinks you are singing, if this number is something crazy like 10 songs when you only have 30 bard song ranks then we know something is wrong.

Also currently the script is only setup to sing 10 songs, if your offset requires more songs being sung let me know and I'll add the songs of war to the script as well, was just trying to avoid having to use those because, well, they're songs of war.

ETA: Scratch that thing about songs of war, I don't think manual renew songs affect your multisong penalty, so unless I'm mistaken there are only 10 songs (not counting sonic armor) that would contribute to your multisong penalty. Am I right or wrong on this?

[Tgo01]

Also I still haven't fixed the enhancive thing, if there isn't a code I can use inside of the script I'll have to do it another way but I was trying to avoid that because I'm lazy and I like to make things easy on myself.

So far now if you are wearing logic or discipline enhancives please copy and paste your enhanced stats over when posting your data.

[Anebriated]

why yes, yes I am. I like my MCP aug chain even if it is temp.

[Tgo01]

why yes, yes I am. I like my MCP aug chain even if it is temp.

I guess I can forgive you...just this once though :p

Let me know if the latest version works better, it should make sure your hands are empty and it should not cast sonic armor.

[Anebriated]

******************************
Version B
Number of songs: 7
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 73
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 52
LOG bonus: 6
Offset: 52
******************************

[Tgo01]

Whew, I think I fixed that problem, thanks for doing all of that testing for me Anebriated. Are those stats enhanced by any chance?

[Anebriated]

They were at the time of testing but it didnt show.

Logic (LOG): 52 (6) ... 74 (17)

[Tgo01]

Okay I stopped being lazy for 5 minutes and I'm pretty sure version C (now up on the repo) will show enhanced stats.

[Anebriated]

Now you went and did it...


******************************
Version C
Number of songs: 7
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 0
DIS bonus: 0
LOG stat: 0
LOG bonus: 0
Offset: 52
******************************

[Tgo01]

Sonofa.

Okay, pretty sure Version D should fix this.

[Whirlin]

Now you went and did it...


******************************
Version C
Number of songs: 7
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 0
DIS bonus: 0
LOG stat: 0
LOG bonus: 0
Offset: 52
******************************

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/2399189248/h7358F42A/

[Thondalar]

******************************
Version D
Number of songs: 5
Race: Elf
Level: 31
Bard spell ranks: 19
DIS stat: 0
DIS bonus: 0
LOG stat: 0
LOG bonus: 0
Offset: 30
******************************


...

[Tgo01]

Arg! Wish I had some enhancives of my own so I could test this myself. Wonder why it's working fine for me with no enhancives..hmm..

[Thondalar]

I'm not enhanced either...still posted zeros.

[Tgo01]

I'm not enhanced either...still posted zeros.

Very odd...

Okay I uploaded version E and I'm 99.99% positive it should properly show enhanced stats...and stats period.

[Thondalar]

Lol....now it doesn't even show the zeros.


******************************
Version E
Number of songs: 5
Race: Elf
Level: 31
Bard spell ranks: 19
DIS stat:
DIS bonus:
LOG stat:
LOG bonus:
Offset: 30
******************************

[Tgo01]

Well I'm running out of ideas now...how the heck is it working for me? :/

[Thondalar]

You are currently singing:
Fortitude Song
Song of Luck
Kai's Triumph Song
Sonic Shield Song
Song of Valor
Song of Peace
Sonic Weapon Song
Song of Mirrors

Your song magic remains strong. It will be several minutes before your medley renews. Your current renewal cost is 82 mana.


Elf
31
DIS: 93
DIS BONUS: 6
LOG: 65
LOG BONUS: 7

[Tgo01]

Alright for real this time, I'm 99.99% sure version F works correctly.

Sorry, I'm a noob.

[Anebriated]

******************************
Version F
Number of songs: 7
Race: Halfling
Level: 62
Bard spell ranks: 59
DIS stat: 73
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 74
LOG bonus: 17
Offset: 52
******************************

working!

[Tgo01]

Woot! Version F is the version to have then.

[Thondalar]

******************************
Version F
Number of songs: 5
Race: Elf
Level: 31
Bard spell ranks: 19
DIS stat: 93
DIS bonus: 6
LOG stat: 65
LOG bonus: 7
Offset: 30
******************************

[Tgo01]

Thanks for everyone's contributions thus far.

I forgot to take into account the possibility of negative bonuses in version F so you'll need version G if you have negative bonuses to DIS or LOG. If you've already posted information with version F and you don't have negative bonuses then it's fine. The numbers wouldn't have appeared in the list at the end.

[Tgo01]

I started a new thread so I can list all of the data gained in the very first post.

Please either post your results in this thread or the new thread at

http://forum.gsplayers.com/showthread.php?85151-Bard-renewal-calculation-data&p=1584593#post1584593

MrMortimur if you don't mind could you download the latest version and run the script again? I worked out a few bugs that I'm not sure affected your results.

[Latrinsorm]

Thanks for everyone's contributions thus far.You're welcome. :)

[Tgo01]

You're welcome. :)

Pppphhhhbbtttt.

[Whirlin]

Can't we call it something better, like Version Whirlin's Bow?