Would this even work?

[Tendarian]

Heres the link

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/latestnewsstory.cfm?storyID=3560395&thesection=new s&thesubsection=world


HIV bomb attack foiled

14.04.2004 0.26 am

Israel said it had foiled a plot to use a bomb laced with HIV-infected blood in a suicide attack during the Passover holiday.

My question is wouldnt the aids virus just die out before it infected the people who were wounded?

[Latrinsorm]

Depends on if people are walking around with open wounds or enjoy rubbing bomber blood in their eyes. Depending on the location and power of the bomb, I bet he could infect a few people. It'd be tough, though.

[AnticorRifling]

Shrapnel from bomb passes through bomber if constructed properly, blood on shrapnel, shrapnel inters victim in less than a few seconds. Victim is now infected.

Yes it could work.

[TheEschaton]

If the blood dries out, HIV dies.


But, conceivably, if people got the blood on them, and they ingested it or somehow had it enter their system, they could catch HIV. The chances would be small though, cause I imagine a bomb would boil the blood and dry it out, when it explodes.


-TheE-

[TheEschaton]

And unless the shrapnel stays lodged IN the victim, Anticor, it would be pretty damn tough to contract HIV from a passing contact like that.


-TheE-

[Hulkein]

Pretty twisted if you ask me.. Sort of like Kramer taking out the diskits (or whatever they're called in clothes) so they dry out in ten years :lol: Long term plan.

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
And unless the shrapnel stays lodged IN the victim, Anticor, it would be pretty damn tough to contract HIV from a passing contact like that.


-TheE-

Chances are it would lodge but even if it did pass through that's not glancing contact. It would enter rub and exit. Plenty of time to transfer fluid.

[TheEschaton]

Flying shrapnel would enter and exit a body in about what, 1 second?

HIV isn't THAT potent. You need a relatively significant amount of material (as opposed to say, Ebola) to catch it.


Besides, the whole point is moot - if you're afraid you might of been exposed to HIV, if you start a regimen of meds immediately, and you can reduce your chances of getting it to something negligible.

-TheE-

[Celexei]

still scary...i don't like the plan and i do think if it was planned that it could work...although the explosion point brings up a good variable

[Ravenstorm]

Originally posted by TheEschatonBesides, the whole point is moot - if you're afraid you might of been exposed to HIV, if you start a regimen of meds immediately, and you can reduce your chances of getting it to something

It's not moot at all. The point of suicide bombers isn't to kill people so much as to spread terror. Imagine the reaction of even just making that claim after one of the worse ones: dozens of people now wondering if they have HIV, having to wait six months or more to find out, being forced to take an expensive cocktail of drugs every day for a month.

Include a bag or two of blood with every suicide bomber and they don't even have to really be infected blood. Just the spectre is enough. Not that it's really hard to get infected blood. Hell, they might even be able to talk someone into volunteering to get infected just in order to be able to donate blood to the cause.

Possible? Probably. Realistic? Irrelevant. The effect will be the same.

Raven

[Celexei]

the fact is these terrorist bastards ARE out to do damage...of course they're tryin to scare and terrorize but they do mean harm to others, and this could be a very real plan if they wanted it to be.

[Fengus]

Seems far more effective to just hurt people with bombs, fear of AIDs which is fatal really pales in comparison to fear of seeing your body parts strewn acrossed a room, ie plain ole death.

No, it wouldn't the HIV virus would die when exposed to air (which is why you can not get HIV just by touching somebodies blood, you have to share some kind of fluid), let alone an explosive blast.

[GSLeloo]

If they did it like... rather than using the blood they isolated the actual virus. And then found a bacteriophage that was airborn and would infect the cells in a human that way and then they made the bacteriophage competent and made it accept the DNA from the HIV Virus... yes it would be possible.

[Warriorbird]

Certain delivery mechanisms could raise the probability.

[Ravenstorm]

Getting someone's blood on you carries a risk of infection if you have an open wound of some sort. What the explosion would do to the blood and virus is another matter and would certainly be a factor in why it might not work.

But would people not panic? Course they would. People have a terror of biological warfare beyond that of just being blown up. And the possibility of living with HIV even if they survived the blast would justifiably freak them out.

Raven

[GSLeloo]

Yeah people have a sort of irrational fear of terrorism but it's not really that far fetched... people should be scared to a point because truly we don't know what could happen. As I said, it would actually be pretty simple to create an airborn Aids... good thing no one has.

[Meos]

"As I said, it would actually be pretty simple to create an airborn Aids... good thing no one has."

easy... if it was easy someone would have done it already.

[imported_Kranar]

I agree with Ravenstorm on this one.

It's pretty ineffective to try and cause damage with an HIV bomb. It would be much better to just take a supersoaker with blood in it and go nuts in a restaurant.

The primary purpose would be to instill fear, because the fear we have of an outbreak occuring is far more serious than the fear of an explosion going off.

An outbreak would be an ongoing fear, everyday people would wonder not only if they're infected, but if they're going to get infected by someone else.

It's more long term than going in and setting off a bomb.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Meos
easy... if it was easy someone would have done it already. They'd have to be incredibly stupid to make a biological weapon they didn't have a cure for. Biological weapons don't infect only the target. They infect everyone.

[imported_Kranar]

We're talking about suicide bombers though.

Heh, Yes, I guess it could infect you if you just got stabbed and a a section of the virus that wasunoxygenized and unexploded landed in said stab wound.

Personally, I don't think it would cause too much long term panic, because the probability of actually getting it is very very low. Then again thats assuming that people are rational. :lol:

[Back]

Originally posted by Tendarian
My question is wouldnt the aids virus just die out before it infected the people who were wounded?

No† if it was fresh...

Good being informed Tender. I never saw this story.

Isrealis are tops at security. The US hires them for it.

For example... when I was in Tel Aviv in 96, they cleared out a bus station for one lone bag. Sure, it was a bitch, a dud, but then, we didn't blow up.

[Tsa`ah]

Shrapnel isn't always heated; the force of the blast carries it. Additionally it doesn't always exit the body. In the instance of a suicide bomber, there's only so much explosive they could strap on and not be noticed before they arrive at the target destination.

My father, my cousin's adoptive father, two uncles, and another cousin all have shrapnel somewhere in their bodies from explosions.

Back to the point of the amount of explosives used. The human body holds a whole lot of blood and not all of this would be oxidized by the explosion, but that's not a logical means of delivery and the article suggest something else entirely. I'm assuming the bomb would be placed in a container(s) filled with saline, shredded surgical steel and the contaminated blood. It's not hard to remove blood from the human body without exposing it to the outside atmosphere.

While the bomb would indeed produce a great amount of heat, the heat wouldn't necessarily touch the contents of the container long enough to "dry" it out, let alone bring it to a boil.

You can argue that it takes large quantities of fluid to facilitate a transfer, but that would be an ignorant argument. Large quantities of saliva perhaps, blood, mucus, seminal fluids, or vaginal secretions ... not much at all.

Many a dentist, and dentist patient, phlebotomist, and blood serum technicians have become infected in the past with very small amounts of exposure. It doesn't take much at all.

Medications to take the risk to zero? What medications? Where are the studies that support this claim?

Infecting bacteria? Theoretically sure. That is only if the RNA contained within the virus and the very nature of a bacteria can be suppressed long enough without damaging the host or virus. The moment the RNA is introduced the bacteria becomes a HIV factory until the cell membrane ruptures and releases a few hundred thousand viri. That is assuming you can even get the bacteria's DNA to accept the RNA introduced by the virus. Bacteria aren't exactly white blood cells you know.

For the assumption that infected shrapnel would dry out before it hit a target, only if the distance was great enough. One thing we're missing here. Shrapnel, infected blood saline mixture, people, confusion. This fluid would be everywhere and no one would think, "Hey, this stuff is contaminated with HIV". Bloodied cut up people that are still alive will be in contact with even more of the fluid as they meander about. The chances of infection are far greater than even slim.

[TheEschaton]

If they did it like... rather than using the blood they isolated the actual virus. And then found a bacteriophage that was airborn and would infect the cells in a human that way and then they made the bacteriophage competent and made it accept the DNA from the HIV Virus... yes it would be possible.


If this was possible, then there'd be a cure for AIDS. A stable bacteriophage which could contain HIV and NOT lyse under the production of HIV, would mean it could be introduced into the human body, suck up the HIV, and then be killed by common antibodies.

Furthermore, Tsa`ah, I won't claim to know anything about bomb-making, but that the blood wouldn't be aerosolized seems to be a rather bold statement to make. That's all it takes.

As for the HIV meds reducing the chance of infection post-exposure, that's relatively common knowledge. HIV meds, in various ways, disable the virus from performing - if the med is introduced early enough, it can disable all the HIV since it is such a small amount, and hopefully concentrated to one area still.


-TheE-

[AnticorRifling]

You can shape a charge to do some of the coolest things, one of which is ensuring that the payload (non explosive such as shrapnel or bio agent) is not misted but actually projected.

One of my favorite classes in my training was the "Let's get creative and make field expedient explosives" Claymore out of a plastic soap dish anyone?

[Warriorbird]

I'm not an expert.... but I was thinking some Claymore-like exploding mechanism could be adapted...

Doubtful. We're talking about shrapnel. I've had a "little" training in explosives and there is a big difference between projecting a metal ball bearing and a delicate cell.

How can you infect someone with HIV through a bomb? Ladies and gentlemen, that does not make sense.

[Hulkein]

Welcome to the beginning of this thread Stanley, try reading the discussions before posting you handjob.

Welcome to the beginning of this thread Stanley, try reading the discussions before posting you handjob.

I did and none of the shit makes any sense.

[Hulkein]

.....

It was a discussion on how physically it wouldn't do anything (most likely), but it was the fact that it was waging a psychological war. Please stick to posting in dueling threads that no one reads, thanks.

HIV couldn't be transferred from a bomb-vest you schmuck.

[Latrinsorm]

Hulkein: 1 (million)
SB: 0 (also million)

Also, I've attained a new level of uncomfortability thanks to Anticor's "creativity" with explosives.

::throws VC stick grenade at idiots on this post infested with lots of germs::

[Artha]

Claymore out of a plastic soap dish anyone?

Guide plz.

ummmmmmmmmmmm

Anarchist cookbook is easily google-searched.

I suggest tennis ball bomb.

[Artha]

It's also an awesome way to lose fingers.

It all depends on what you use as the reactant. I just drilled the gunpowder out of a few F motor rock engines.

[AnticorRifling]

I was thinking about posting a lengthy post about how it CAN BE done for the benifit of Warclaidhm 2.0 but instead. No. It's been explained and more so than being actually feasible the other aspects of claiming such a feat have been brought forth so.... Go re-read if it didn't make sense to you because it seems to make sense to everyone else.

The Anarcist Cookbook is something for middle school kids mad at parents. Most of that stuff you can figure out on your own but you and the A word to the beginning and it's a must have.

Back on topic. Yes, I think a HIV suicide bomb could work. Surgical steel shards, lots of blood and saline, a shaped charge, and a location that involves people in tight quarters ala subway or sporting event. Hell stage the charges(scares me that I'm thinking into this) charge 1 sends the shrapnel killing those in the kill zone, generally 5-15' diameter, second charge releases blood/saline mix. Saline keeps the blood "wet" longer giving the blood a chance to enter the wounds of those hit with shrapnel and still alive. While granted it takes alot of blood think of the pychological issues this brings up and the mass hysteria that ensues.

[Artha]

While granted it takes alot of blood think of the pychological issues this brings up and the mass hysteria that ensues.

Hell, it doesn't even need to be people blood to have the psychological factor.

Man I was just making some helpful suggestions for starters.

Um. First of all, you're going to need to carry around an incubator because once the HIV rises back to a temperature that it can be parasitic at, it will denature. Second of all, you'll need an anticoogulant in the blood serum. Third of all, it must be stored at Homeostatic temperature. Fourth of all, after the shards of HIV inflicted doom hit the person, you're going to have such a huge Tumor necrosis factor response, that the per se HIV is going to be wiped out by a bunch of macrophages. Fifth of all, if you actually get the HIV into the lymph, shards of the blast will cause a systemic IR response and the person will die of anaphylaxis.

Try an aerosol can with a hemmorhagic fever. You'll have better results.

Oh and as far as hysteria/psychology goes. Why not throw in a few gas grenades containing some nice BZ hallucinogen.

[Ravenstorm]

Four posts in a row? How about going back to posting logs of duels in the other folder. You're good at that.

Raven

Yeah...

[AnticorRifling]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Oh and as far as hysteria/psychology goes. Why not throw in a few gas grenades containing some nice BZ hallucinogen.

Easier to make a bomb

Easier to use blood then get ahold of BZ or BX

Easier to transport a "jacket style" bomb then canisters

Easier to use fake blood and present the image of HIV bomb

I don't know why you would use a bomb instead of some grenades...

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Um. First of all, you're going to need to carry around an incubator because once the HIV rises back to a temperature that it can be parasitic at, it will denature.

Glass insulated thermos with a batter operated e-z bake oven bulb.


Second of all, you'll need an anticoagulant in the blood serum.

Feel adventurous? Dig in the medical waste bins at any blood or plasma center.


Third of all, it must be stored at Homeostatic temperature.

See the first comment.


Fourth of all, after the shards of HIV inflicted doom hit the person, you're going to have such a huge Tumor necrosis factor response, that the per se HIV is going to be wiped out by a bunch of macrophages.

You assume large chunks for one. You assume hot chunks for two. Any number of antimacrobial solutions could be added in small amounts that would not harm the virus and inhibit the automated response. The shrapnel would be fine-coiled slivers, much like the shavings from a metal lathe.


Fifth of all, if you actually get the HIV into the lymph, shards of the blast will cause a systemic IR response and the person will die of anaphylaxis.

Who says it actually has to hit any part of the lymphatic system? All it really has to do is enter the blood stream. How many viri could be carried on a piece of thin coiled steel? Just takes one to do its job. One or two hundred to survive after the first rupture, so on and so forth.


Originally posted by TheEschaton
Furthermore, Tsa`ah, I won't claim to know anything about bomb-making, but that the blood wouldn't be aerosolized seems to be a rather bold statement to make. That's all it takes.

Sure, I'll give you that, but only if the distance is great. We're talking small quarters. If it was a question aerosolization, make it a gelatinous caloid solution, a petre auger or good old fashioned jello.

Ever blow up a water mellon with good old stump remover? That's dynamite for you city folk. It taste like crap, but it's still cool and it's still very wet. Hell, take a 50 eggs, place 25 in the bottom of a bucket, put in a stick of dynamite, half or quarter if you're a wuss, and place the remaining 25 in the bucket over the stick. Cover the bucket, light the fuse, and run like a whipped bitch.

After the stick has detonated and your picking shell out of your ass, go back to ground zero and try to NOT step in egg white and yolk. You'll find very little evidence of cooked egg.

Bombs are made to produce force through rapid expansion. That is the destructive characteristic of an explosion, heat is only the after affect. And heat stays localized on a small scale.


As for the HIV meds reducing the chance of infection post-exposure, that's relatively common knowledge. HIV meds, in various ways, disable the virus from performing - if the med is introduced early enough, it can disable all the HIV since it is such a small amount, and hopefully concentrated to one area still.

I want to know what meds specifically.

[Edited on 4-15-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[AnticorRifling]

Tsa'ah and I so need to hook up for a weekend of fun with det cord and imagination.

[Tsa`ah]

We can see if a hick like Randy Travis can go "pop" with an ass full of fire crackers.

[HarmNone]

Here is a link I found to drugs used to combat HIV, post-exposure:

http://www.cdc.gov/epo/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00052801.htm

HarmNone, always helpful

[Tsa`ah]

Now find me conclusive studies.

I can see how NRT and protein inhibitors may work in some cases. Specifically cases where the immune system hasn't tagged the virus.

Let's say instead of a white blood cell it's a brain cell or a cell lining the intestinal wall. Let's take it further. Say a few hundred HIV viruses enter the blood stream and are circulated to the brain within ... 5 seconds. Say 10 of these are actually received by some brain tissue and the coding lies dormant for 10 years. A fat lot of that week to two-week regiment of AZT did.

There simply is NO way of knowing if a person is still positive until they start producing the virus. It can and does lay dormant once encoded.

Brain, blood, or intestines it can wait and the meds did nothing.

You can reduce your probability, but not to 0, or even 50%.

[HarmNone]

I have no idea how effective these post-exposure regimens are, really. I would have to ask mom. She is involved in the procedure used at her hospital, but I do not know what kind of statistics they have regarding the effectiveness of treatment. I will see if she does. :)

HarmNone

[Edited on 4-15-2004 by HarmNone]

Hey, will a CD4+ maturing in the thymus be negatively selected for if it doesn't possess the gp120? I heard some individual are "immune" to HIV infection because of a lack of gp120 and HIV's binding affinity for it on TH1 and TH2s.

Who says it actually has to hit any part of the lymphatic system? All it really has to do is enter the blood stream. How many viri could be carried on a piece of thin coiled steel? Just takes one to do its job. One or two hundred to survive after the first rupture, so on and so forth.

Wouldn't the highly repeated epitophe of the metal fragments of the bomb fragments cause stimulation of dendritic cells (via TNFa,) henceforth traversing them into the lymph? Also, regardless of what system is infected, won't one mount a huge IFNy response and at least inhibit viral replication.

I only assume it could be possible if all of Tsa'Ah's conditions were true, but you would have to have needle-like projections from the bomb blast.

[HarmNone]

I think gp120 is a protein found on the HIV I virus itself, Stanley. Not totally sure, but pretty sure.

HarmNone

[Tsa`ah]

You're assuming timely replication vs stemic responses to begin with. The likelyhood of someone developing a full blown HIV infection from such a delivery is small. The possibility for a large number of people to become carries via dormant coding is much greater.

I think gp120 is a protein found on the HIV I virus itself, Stanley. Not totally sure, but pretty sure.

Aye. The gp120 is what pulls it across the membrane of TH cells. But one of my Immu profs told me that depending on the polymorphism of the CD4+ itself, there are certain individuals that HIV will have a very low affinity for the CD4. Making them immune to the virus.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Stanley Burrell
Hey, will a CD4+ maturing in the thymus be negatively selected for if it doesn't possess the gp120? I heard some individual are "immune" to HIV infection because of a lack of gp120 and HIV's binding affinity for it on TH1 and TH2s.

Okay, Stanley. It is just that the wording of the above paragraph gave me to believe that you were saying that a person's "lack of gp120" would make that person immune because of HIV's "binding affinity for it on TH1 and TH2s".

The CD4+ could not be "negatively selected for if it doesn't contain the gp120" because it is not expected to contain it. Gp120 is associated with the HIV virus, not the CD4+. :)

HarmNone, just clarifying

[AnticorRifling]

You do realize that if an outsider read this thread while looking to see what this board is all about he/she would be very scared and mostly likely let the feds know that we have a GemStone threat condition orange because we are thinking of how to build a better bomb that does it right heh.

Harmnone regardless, this is just for cytosolic and intravesicular parasites. HIV is pathetic because you can still mount B lymphocyte responses to extracellular antigens. Plus you have CD8 T-cells which aren't even phased by the HIV virus. A better autoimmune bomb/grenade/device would be something of the like that would deliver a complete knockout to the entire immune system, leaving the individual more pathetic than a laboratory SCID mouse. I don't know of any pathogens that can inherently cause Omenn's Syndrome but it would be pretty neat. For research purposes of course.

[Edited on 4-16-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

[HarmNone]

Heh. I was not talking about making a bomb, Stanley. I was simply clearing up some misconceptions that might have resulted from what you said. Bombs hold no interest for me. ;)

HarmNone

[Tsa`ah]

I think we just made a list.

Eh? What list would that be Tsa'ah?

[Ravenstorm]

:waves to Ashcroft.

Raven

[HarmNone]

Ack! Shall I start packing for a clandestine escape to Lower Slobovia? :D

HarmNone, notta bomb-maker!

[Tsa`ah]

In this day and age, you have to ask?

LOL @ Harmnone

Nah, you'd probably have to something more like this:


Praise Allah! Allah Akbar! U235! Anthrax! Fuck America! Osama! UF6! Centrifuge! Laser! Etc...

That was prolly just carnivored.

[HarmNone]

My computer just started making this funny, beeping noise and an electronic voice informed me that I should not adjust the speakers, as I was being monitored by my friendly, local government official. Before I could react, the monitor flickered and this really wild picture of Bugs Bunny took over the screen. He seemed....upset. :(

HarmNone...bunnies to the left of us, bunnies to the right of us :D

:bouncy: LOL

[Edited on 4-16-2004 by Stanley Burrell]

I still think it would be pretty rough because of the sensitive nature of the HIV virus outside of the body. Anyway who cares, in 200 years everyone will have HIV anyway.