Official: Strathspey Reveals Spell Idea: Balefire

[Fallen]

For various behind-the-scenes reasons, I've decided to do a couple pieces of the Sorcerer circle review a little early. We're previewing one of these pieces tonight in this post.

Keep in mind as you read this that none of these things are official yet. The team is still reviewing this spell, so any of these details may change at any time.

The current spell in the 713 slot, Nightmare, will be combined with the current spell of Curse to become one of many new features of that spell. In its place will be Balefire, a new ball-type aimed spell. It will use existing ball spell mechanics, meaning among other things that a successful hit can result in an explosion that damages multiple targets, and the Multi-Opponent skill will increase the minimum number of targets struck. Demonology lore will be the factor that increases the maximum number of targets, as well as increasing the amount of damage dealt to the first target.

The damage being done is plasma-based, and features a completely new damage table (for those who like to experiment with such things).

In addition, if the caster has a minor demon present, the demon can be forced to contribute damage to the initial strike at the cost of a few of the demon's mana points, never more than 3. The cost can be reduced based on the sum of the caster's Spiritual Mana Control and Elemental Mana Control bonuses. The damage done by this extra attack will be roughly proportional to the critical damage done by the caster in the initial strike.

The type of damage done will depend on the demon's native valence:
Grik'tyr: randomly either disintegration or crushing damage
Shien'tyr: randomly either vacuum or unbalancing damage
Lorae'tyr: randomly either steam or disruption damage

Example:


>prep 713
You trace an intricate sign that contorts in the air while forcefully invoking Balefire...
Your spell is ready.
>cast troll
You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +232 vs DS: +66 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +52 = +257
... and hit for 66 points of damage!
Skin blasted away leaving exposed and bloody muscle!
The jungle troll is stunned!
An inquisitive pure white imp shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your pure white imp loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the jungle troll's chest!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 40 points of damage!
Intense arc of energy flays the jungle troll's arm to the bone!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 45 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the jungle troll's leg to explode!
It is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 40 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg!
It is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
Cast Roundtime 3 Seconds.

That's with 50 demonology ranks, versus the trolls' natural brigandine-like hide. As you can see, the spell has been completed on the development server, and some of the other GMs have already been trying it out. I can't give any indication of when it might be ready for release, however, because the spell introduces a number of incidental issues like the two below:

I anticipate that people will complain that demons, like most pet-type creatures, have a habit of lagging behind the owner by a few rooms, and that in a combat situation where timing is critical, that bonus attack will often be lost while the demon is catching up to a fast-moving owner. We plan to address that by changing these creatures so that they follow much more quickly, possibly instantly.

People will also be quick to point out that the presence of a direct aimed attack spell represents a major change in the composition of this spell list which makes it similar to the other pure caster's profession lists, and yet there is still a glaring disparity in the lack of a bolt AS enhancer. We already have plans for this, but that will be discussed in another (future) thread.

-Strath

http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=6605

[Fallen]

I like it. Nice, straightforward, and sorcerous. Nothing AMAZING about it, but I certainly wouldn't mind having it on the sorcerer spell list. Good stuff. Hopefully, the first of many improvements to come.

[radamanthys]

That actually sounds pretty bitchin'.

Kudos there.

[zhelas]

Nice. At least a summoned demon can give some additional benefit to the spell. I liked how Strath said there is talk about giving an AS bolt enhancer.

Makes sense to combine nightmare into curse.

[Morph]

seems kinda similar to 111 :P

But Balefire is a pretty cool spell in the Wheel of Time books :D

[zhelas]

Wonder if they will cap the benefits form Demonology. I know Sereg has at least 202 ranks.

[caelric]

And the talk about 'one of many' enahancements to curse is good.

Overall, it looks pretty cool. 13 mana for a ball/bolt spell is the most in the game (I think), except for cone of lightning, but it looks pretty awesome.

[ZeP]

Yeah, at the core it is not something revolutionary. But it does seem like a net gain to that circle since 713 doesn't go away but becomes part of "one of many new features" of 715.

[BriarFox]

And the talk about 'one of many' enahancements to curse is good.

Overall, it looks pretty cool. 13 mana for a ball/bolt spell is the most in the game (I think), except for cone of lightning, but it looks pretty awesome.

Sounds like it'll be reduced by SMC/EMC, though, so it might not be too bad. It makes a lot of sense for sorcerers to have a ball spell, too, and it's nice that it makes demonology a bit more useful.

[Lumi]

I'm excited because this spell is PERFECT for my sorc.

Anyone take a crack at the deducing the DF of the spell for brig based on that shot?

[Tolwynn]

Nice seeing a circle review that doesn't sound laden with impending nerf, too.

[caelric]

Sounds like it'll be reduced by SMC/EMC, though, so it might not be too bad.

Oh, missed that part. Yeah, not bad.

[BriarFox]

I'm excited because this spell is PERFECT for my sorc.

Anyone take a crack at the deducing the DF of the spell for brig based on that shot?

Hm. It's hard to say without knowing what crit rank that is, but it's probably somewhere between a rank 4 and a rank 6. So:

Rank 4 - .293
Rank 5 - .261
Rank 6 - .229

[Makkah]

http://images.allmoviephoto.com/2000_Black_and_White/method_man_black_and_white_001.jpg

Tiqal, where you at, son?

[Fallen]

Oh, missed that part. Yeah, not bad.

No..I think that SMC effects the amount of mana it pulls from your demon.

[caelric]

Yeah, might be that, as well. Not sure either way.

[Archigeek]

Looks like a wizard spell to me. What makes it "nice and sorcerous"? To me it looks like a totally elemental ball spell. Is the AS determined largely by spell aiming?

I do like that they're willing to take a look at completely new damage tables, that's awesome. Maybe they'll finally come up with one for entangle that actually entangles.

Folding nightmare into curse and adding some features there is a great idea.

[Makkah]

Looks like a wizard spell to me. What makes it "nice and sorcerous"? To me it looks like a totally elemental ball spell. Is the AS determined largely by spell aiming?

I do like that they're willing to take a look at completely new damage tables, that's awesome. Maybe they'll finally come up with one for entangle that actually entangles.

Folding nightmare into curse and adding some features there is a great idea.

Wizards have access to Minor Demons now? Since when?!?!?! A number of sorcerers have been petitioning (GET IT?!?!?!?!?) for a bolt spell for a while now. Seems pretty sweet to me.

[Archigeek]

Wizards have access to Minor Demons now? Since when?!?!?! A number of sorcerers have been petitioning (GET IT?!?!?!?!?) for a bolt spell for a while now. Seems pretty sweet to me.

I get it. I'm not argueing whether or not it's sweet, but if you replaced "minor demon" with "familiar" how would it be any different? I'm not saying it's a bad spell other than it just doesn't have a sorcerer feel to me. If all you wanted was a copy of a wizard spell with a nifty hook it's perfect. The demon tie-in is very cool.

[ZeP]

Well 111 is an actual copy of a wizard spell so at least this is a little different.

[Jace Solo]

I'll bet that with EMC/SMC it pulls 3 mana from the demon and then take 10 from the caster. Then it probably has some silly reason for having the caster spend less mana to match the demon...anyone wanna bet on the over under of the spell cost to be 7 mana for a fully trained sorc

[kookiegod]

I am pretty impressed.

A new damage table is a vast undertaking, and if he did crit messaging for it, epic undertaking.

Let alone balefire was a player suggestion, the demon tie in was what they wanted (but a cool implmentation).

Kudos to Strath!

~Paul

[Donquix]

I get it. I'm not argueing whether or not it's sweet, but if you replaced "minor demon" with "familiar" how would it be any different? I'm not saying it's a bad spell other than it just doesn't have a sorcerer feel to me. If all you wanted was a copy of a wizard spell with a nifty hook it's perfect. The demon tie-in is very cool.

and wizards casting 519 are sorcerers now too? Spell casters ALL have a mix of attack types. Casters can get CS, bolt as, or maneuever attacks...there's only 4 attack types in the game. You're either going to overlap or have 4 classes.

[Riltus]

I'm excited because this spell is PERFECT for my sorc.

Anyone take a crack at the deducing the DF of the spell for brig based on that shot?

The DF is .325 IF the previewed version uses the existing plasma critical table damage values which, incidentally, are pretty messy in spots. It is a rank 4 abdomen critical with 15 damage.

Mark

[subzero]

I get it. I'm not argueing whether or not it's sweet, but if you replaced "minor demon" with "familiar" how would it be any different? I'm not saying it's a bad spell other than it just doesn't have a sorcerer feel to me. If all you wanted was a copy of a wizard spell with a nifty hook it's perfect. The demon tie-in is very cool.

Replace "fire" with "fire, ice, lightning, and impact" and "You can't cast because you're on fire" with "You can't cast because your nerves are on fire" and we see that immolate is just a DC clone. Does that mean that immolate loses it's "wizard" feel (or maybe it never had it to begin with)?

It's time to lose the notion that a bolt/ball spell is wizardly.

[Methais]

It's time to lose the notion that a bolt/ball spell is wizardly.

Technically bards are the only profession that can't cast a bolt spell.

[IorakeWarhammer]

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.

they should change this message a bit i think it's weak

how about:

A fiery tendril of energy lashes out from a greenish-black orb of flame and hits a jungle troll!

[phantasm]

I thought the problem with sorcerers was that their CS based spells sucked. Give them a bolt spell.

[StrayRogue]

Good to see.

[Fatsix]

What about shitty sorc casting AS?

[Celephais]

What about shitty sorc casting AS?

Seriously? You are what's wrong with everything.


People will also be quick to point out that the presence of a direct aimed attack spell represents a major change in the composition of this spell list which makes it similar to the other pure caster's profession lists, and yet there is still a glaring disparity in the lack of a bolt AS enhancer. We already have plans for this, but that will be discussed in another (future) thread.

[Ryvicke]

Looks like a wizard spell to me. What makes it "nice and sorcerous"?

It's GREEN fire.

[crb]

I get it. I'm not argueing whether or not it's sweet, but if you replaced "minor demon" with "familiar" how would it be any different? I'm not saying it's a bad spell other than it just doesn't have a sorcerer feel to me. If all you wanted was a copy of a wizard spell with a nifty hook it's perfect. The demon tie-in is very cool.

519, 1115, 317

Other pures have been raiding our spell styles for years, turnabout is fair play, and the ball spell is not uniquely wizard anyways, see 111.

[Cap'nDrak]

So, some of the mana is being drawn from the demon? If I'm getting this right then that means if you send mana to the demon it helps reduce the cost of the spell more consistantly? What happens if you cast and the demon is out of mana? Does it cost the full amount? Will the demon be injured IE: Nerve damage, if you cast it when they have 0 mana left?

I'm probably not reading all of this correctly, but this was something that crossed my mind.

[Fallen]

So, some of the mana is being drawn from the demon? If I'm getting this right then that means if you send mana to the demon it helps reduce the cost of the spell more consistantly? What happens if you cast and the demon is out of mana? Does it cost the full amount? Will the demon be injured IE: Nerve damage, if you cast it when they have 0 mana left?

I'm probably not reading all of this correctly, but this was something that crossed my mind.

The way i'm reading it is the spell costs 13 mana. No more no less. For that amount you have 1 line of damage on the initial shot, plus additional ball/bolt damage to the creature, as well as any other creatures your splash hits. IF you have a demon present, you can draw up to 3 points of its stored mana to contribute an additional line of damage to the initial critter as well. SMC/EMC will reduce this cost to 1? mana point, I guess.

Here is my take of the spell via the officials:


13 mana is quite a high total for a bolt spell, so I believe it is important that this spell is available not only via alchemy, but also through scrolls and magical items as well. I do wish that EMC or SMC effected the initial cost of the spell, and whichever wasn't used affected the demon's portion of mana.

As for the demon's contribution, why not have a demon type that is uncapped? Perhaps 1 specific type that can be pulled from up to the limit of what the demon can hold. You can't really call it overpowered as the bolt spell will begin to cost 20+ mana per shot. Ideally, this system would actually be based off of the incomplete? Smite/Bane infuse mechanic where you can choose the approximate amount the creature contributes, with Demonology determining how close to that number you manage, as well as your upper limit. I've no idea how far that particular system has come.

[Celephais]

Unless I'm misreading it, it will always cast the sorcerer 13 mana, and the demon can contribute an additional critical, the demon has its own mana pool.

[audioserf]

I would love to see this have a CS cycle following a successful hit, like 1110 does. For 13 mana that's not really OP, I don't think.

Either way, as a non-sorceror, this spell looks awesome. I don't see what's "wizard-like" about it unless you consider bolt spells the sole providence of mages. In which case, 306 is Wizard Like, and so is 1110.

[Allereli]

great spell for how I've trained my character. lore training in the damage factor is a step in the right direction.

[Fallen]

Apparently, Oscuro thinks the cost is JUST right.


Just to clarify, it's not a bolt spell - it's a ball spell. It won't just hit one target like 910 or 1110; it will splash

Correct, the cheapest one being Major Cold (907), which is available at just under half the cost. So...yeah. - Me

[Fallen]

Unless i'm mistaken, this will be the most expensive BALL BOLT spell in the game by 2 mana. It isn't a huge dilemma, but it is still an issue. I think cost has more to do with available spell slots than anything else. With the extra demon infuse it can cost up to 16 mana. That's quite a price tag. I would still prefer the mana control modifier gets split between the cost of the spell, and then the demon.

[BriarFox]

My post from the officials.


Since some people are commenting that the spell isn't sorcerous enough, what if the spell also had a chance to prevent the target from casting a spell for a set duration? Or if it had a chance to drain a spirit point? Chance to curse? Chance to be followed by an MD attack cycle? What if it had a side-effect of making the target forget any spell it has prepped, or even burned its nerves for the amount of mana of that spell? 13 mana is a lot for a ball spell, after all (says the thorn-mage). Compare it to 1110, which has plasma crits, a great DF, and Harm-like CS cycles.

[Fallen]

It's kinda true that all sorcerers already have access to a BALL BOLT spell via 111. It would be nice if the secondary effect was something other than that.

[Tolwynn]

Expensive, but I'd wager they're justifying the cost somewhat by the additional damage proc, plus the plasma damage type. There's a number of critters that can resist cold or fire, are there any that are plasma resistant?

[Fallen]

Expensive, but I'd wager they're justifying the cost somewhat by the additional damage proc, plus the plasma damage type. There's a number of critters that can resist cold or fire, are there any that are plasma resistant?

Can't think of any. The only downside would be the Bowels, which isn't saying much. My guess is they are balancing it against the DF. If it has the highest DF versus any other spell of its like, that could justify the cost. Remember though, wizards can up their DFs through their lores, just as this spell's damage can be upped by Demonology.

As for the Demon being balanced, you already need to 1. Have a demon present, and 2. infuse up to an additional 3 mana.

[Celephais]

Apparently, Oscuro thinks the cost is JUST right.

[I]

Correct, the cheapest one being Major Cold (907), which is available at just under half the cost. So...yeah. - Me
7 is more than 6.5 ... just "over" half the cost. (I know... hope you meant that, but it does sound worse put that way).

Unless i'm mistaken, this will be the most expensive BALL BOLT spell in the game by 2 mana. It isn't a huge dilemma, but it is still an issue. I think cost has more to do with available spell slots than anything else. With the extra demon infuse it can cost up to 16 mana. That's quite a price tag. I would still prefer the mana control modifier gets split between the cost of the spell, and then the demon.

The extra demon mana comes from the demon, not from you, (again unless I'm reading that all wrong). The damage of the splash is really high in the example he gave, that's not typical of 907/908 (excluding something like troll fire double flares).

Without seeing the crit table/df/avds it's hard to call it too expensive or not yet.

I do think that all mana costs being tied to the spell slot kind of sucks though, it would give them a lot more freedom to move spells around/better design spells if they broke that concept more often.

[Cap'nDrak]

Here's a long shot, but another thought.

What if by having a demon present you were given a "Spirit Slayer" type of effect, where the demon would mimic the spell from it's own mana pool? I'd imagine it would have to be a lesser effect,(no splash damage, just straight bolt damage) but it could be intresting to see.

Another idea I tinkered with, is increasing the effectiveness and or partially negate the side effect of Sacrifice if you had a demon\animate (RPly, using the pieces of a dead critter to feed the demon, or add additional power to an animate) present? Maybe even lower the cool-down timer with it being present.

[Lumi]

The base DF is the highest of ball spells. It has the exact same lore benefits as 907 and 908 for DF and number of targets, the same MOC benefits for number of targets and also has the demon tie-in. Ignoring mana cost, it is objectively the best ball spell in the game. Considering mana cost, it may not be the most efficient, but high level attack spells always sacrifice mana-efficiency for power.

GameMaster Oscuro

I'm...pretty okay with that answer.

[Fallen]

I'm...pretty okay with that answer.

Me too. Would have (and will) responded as such, but was heading into work. The question is, do we want another ball bolt spell, and and expensive one at that, as opposed to a bolt with a DoT splash, and possibly lesser DF, or a disabling bolt, etc. That, and how much, if any, can the spell be tweaked?

My post:


I too am pretty ok with that answer...as so long as the DF isn't .001 above the highest mana costing ball bolt, or something crazy like that.

This leaves us with the question of whether another ball bolt spell is what is best for the profession:




111 Fire Spirit [FIRESPIRIT]
Duration: Immediate

Type: Attack/Utility

Casting this spell will send a bright fiery ball into the sky, which can be seen by anyone standing outside. Do this only when standing outside or it will rebound on you!

If cast at a target successfully, the fiery ball will explode on impact (similar to Major Fire) creating initial damage to the target as well as heat critical damage as a result of the explosion. Once the fiery ball hits the target, the explosion can result in damage to other targets in the room, up to 8 targets.

For casting at targets, Spell Aiming is the most important skill for this spell. Multi-opponent Combat can increase the ability of the fiery ball to hit multiple targets in the room but is not required.

The spell's damage is increased, and the maximum number of targets that the caster is able to hit with Fire Spirit is increased with training in Spiritual Lore, Spirit Summoning. The maximum number of targets increases with training in Spiritual Lore, Spirit Summoning ranks by one per seed 1 on the summation chart.




So basically, this spell is Fire Spirit with a higher DF, and a 1-3 mana Demonology tie-in. Short of tweaking the DF down and/or the Demonology hook up, what else could be done? The nice feature is being able to use Demonology as your DF increase, instead of Summoning lore, but the cost will make it unviable for lower, and even some mid-level sorcerers.

Firespirit has the ability to be shot in the air for a area-based flare. Pretty nifty. How about a Balefire RP tie-in? The sorcerer can summon Balefire into his hands, briefly manipulating a globule of the substance. Duration of the stuff based off Demonology.

Thoughts? Strathspey, could we possibly have an RP prop tied into the spell?

[crb]

Expensive, but I'd wager they're justifying the cost somewhat by the additional damage proc, plus the plasma damage type. There's a number of critters that can resist cold or fire, are there any that are plasma resistant?

on the same token though, are there any that take extra damage from plasma?

fire balls... are very very effective on cold & water & trolls. Which more than makes up for a weakness against shit on teras.

[Lumi]

Me too. Would have (and will) responded as such, but was heading into work. The question is, do we want another ball bolt spell, and and expensive one at that, as opposed to a bolt with a DoT splash, and possibly lesser DF, or a disabling bolt, etc. That, and how much, if any, can the spell be tweaked?

I think the spell's better off without the DoT splash. As awesome and sorcerous as it is, the immediacy of effect is too important, I think. Do you want to stand around and wait for the disease to kill something? How much damage is it actually going to contribute by the time you kill it anyway?

[Tolwynn]

fire balls... are very very effective on cold & water & trolls. Which more than makes up for a weakness against shit on teras.

There's also the whole range of stone critters that are entirely unaffected by fire, which are a good chunk of Landing hunting from 50 upward.

[Fallen]

There's also the whole range of stone critters that are entirely unaffected by fire, which are a good chunk of Landing hunting from 50 upward.

A good spell for Infernal Liches too, as so long as we're counting. It is a good spell, I just didn't particularly care for Oscuro giving me shit literally my second post back, heh. "You know, you stupid little player, its actually called a BALL BOLT spell. Get it right."

[Fallen]

I think the spell's better off without the DoT splash. As awesome and sorcerous as it is, the immediacy of effect is too important, I think. Do you want to stand around and wait for the disease to kill something? How much damage is it actually going to contribute by the time you kill it anyway?

I'm ok with DoTs as so long as they effect the whole room. HOWEVER, i've a feeling Disease is going to be tweaked to do just that. An open-cast version of the spell has been suggested many, many times. Disease has the possibility to be badass if it is just adjusted to GS4 standards. Honestly, the only thing i'd like to see now is an RP use for the spell. I like the idea of being able to manipulate Balefire for a short period of time. Aside from having the duration of the flame being based off of Demonology, maybe verbs can be unlocked at Rank:specific checks of your lore. I like the idea of being able to Summon Balefire into your hand at a very high Demonology rank, and then THROWING it at your target for the Ball Bolt spell effect. This would allow you to prep the spell first, going past the 30 second window, and using it at the first available target. Definitely going to suggest this.

[caelric]

...I just didn't particularly care for Oscuro giving me shit literally my second post back, heh....

You aren't surprised, I hope? Oscuro has some good ideas (and some bad ideas, as well) for the game, but he most definitely thinks he is right about his ideas, no matter what, and will gladly tell you.

All in all, though, even though we already have a ball spell in 111, I much prefer this, as it has sorc tie ins, and is based on our native lores, rather than summoning lore. I am happy if this comes to fruition in the next couple of months, and other sorc de occurs, as well.

Just a wild guess, if the release of this (and other sorc dev) requires a storyline, I wonder if it is gong to be tied into EG at all?

[Cap'nDrak]

Honestly, the only thing i'd like to see now is an RP use for the spell. I like the idea of being able to manipulate Balefire for a short period of time. Aside from having the duration of the flame being based off of Demonology, maybe verbs can be unlocked at Rank:specific checks of your lore. I like the idea of being able to Summon Balefire into your hand at a very high Demonology rank, and then THROWING it at your target for the Ball Bolt spell effect. This would allow you to prep the spell first, going past the 30 second window, and using it at the first available target. Definitely going to suggest this.

Why not a 312 charge effect? Would this not work along those guidelines without running into the realm of using additional verbs like THROW?

[Danical]

The extra demon mana comes from the demon, not from you, (again unless I'm reading that all wrong). The damage of the splash is really high in the example he gave, that's not typical of 907/908 (excluding something like troll fire double flares).

I'm wondering the level disparity between the caster and the jungle trolls. Level is a huge large determinant of the crits generated from ball spells.

[caelric]

Assuming fully trained in SA, with an average dex bonus, and no society, should be easy to figure out a range of levels, from the AS of +232.

[Fallen]

From what I understand, splashes are entirely level based, not counting elemental weaknesses/strengths. I don't really like the charge ability for the spell. That's a cleric ability, and it's a good one, but it prevents you from casting other spells.

Viril's idea of multiple Balefire balls floating around the sorcerer is pretty awesome. Have the number based off of Mana control. I wouldn't call it anywhere near overpowered, as it is essentially just a 1-off wand use.

[Danical]

From what I understand, splashes are entirely level based, not counting elemental weaknesses/strengths. I don't really like the charge ability for the spell. That's a cleric ability, and it's a good one, but it prevents you from casting other spells.

Viril's idea of multiple Balefire balls floating around the sorcerer is pretty awesome. Have the number based off of Mana control. I wouldn't call it anywhere near overpowered, as it is essentially just a 1-off wand use.

I'd really rather see some more effects from the spell in stead of just crit/damage. I've been trying like hell to suggest attack spells that lower the Resistances of the creature, a la my Sorcerer bolt idea, Necrosis Bolt.

[Fallen]

I'd really rather see some more effects from the spell in stead of just crit/damage. I've been trying like hell to suggest attack spells that lower the Resistances of the creature, a la my Sorcerer bolt idea, Necrosis Bolt.

I like it. Have it based off of the sorcerer's E-lore training. You should definitely suggest that.

[Danical]

Crossposting this:

Maybe one of the effects of the balefire (being other-planar) is that it affects non-corporeal creatures as if they had been phased (so they are crit-killable).

[Fallen]

Oscuro called dibs for Monks, Dan. Good suggestion, though.

[Danical]

Oscuro called dibs for Monks, Dan. Good suggestion, though.

Estild?

[Fallen]

Estild?

I refuse to believe Estild actually exists. I think he's just an alt of Oscuro.

[crb]

I refuse to believe Estild actually exists. I think he's just an alt of Oscuro.

:rofl:

[Archigeek]

HOWEVER, i've a feeling Disease is going to be tweaked to do just that. An open-cast version of the spell has been suggested many, many times. Disease has the possibility to be badass if it is just adjusted to GS4 standards.

See, now this to me is an absolutely awesome idea, and far more sorcerous than a ball spell. Simply making an open version of the disease spell would be totally badass.

My only point about the ball spell is that it just seems like a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" solution. I think you could have something equally powerful but more in the sorcerer them.

Mass disease totally fits this bill, especially if the disease does more than just suck down hp: itching, lowered AS/DS, increased RT... there are a lot of things you could tie in with disease. It would be akin to a warrior's berserk: fire it and forget it. 30 seconds later everything is dead or incapacitated.

[Fallen]

See, now this to me is an absolutely awesome idea, and far more sorcerous than a ball spell. Simply making an open version of the disease spell would be totally badass.

My only point about the ball spell is that it just seems like a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" solution. I think you could have something equally powerful but more in the sorcerer them.

Mass disease totally fits this bill, especially if the disease does more than just suck down hp: itching, lowered AS/DS, increased RT... there are a lot of things you could tie in with disease. It would be akin to a warrior's berserk: fire it and forget it. 30 seconds later everything is dead or incapacitated.

Disease doesn't factor into this spell, really. It would be a waste, IMO, if they just roll Disease into yet another step of Curse and come up with a new premise for the slot. Disease CAN work, it just needs serious tweaking. As for this spell, we've a few good suggestions. Necrotic bolt is out says Estild/Oscuro, but hopefully we can get some parlor tricks/utility added to Balefire to separate it a bit from the crowd.

[Archigeek]

Disease doesn't factor into this spell, really. It would be a waste, IMO, if they just roll Disease into yet another step of Curse and come up with a new premise for the slot. Disease CAN work, it just needs serious tweaking. As for this spell, we've a few good suggestions. Necrotic bolt is out says Estild/Oscuro, but hopefully we can get some parlor tricks/utility added to Balefire to separate it a bit from the crowd.

I'm not suggesting combine disease into this or curse. Disease has huge potential all on its own.

Necrotic bolt would have also been more interesting to me (can you say "flesh-rot crit table"?), but good luck with the tricks to separate balefire from the crowd anyway.

[Danical]

It appears that damage resulting from the criticals caused by the demon/splash have +25 damage attached to each one.

So, at least this provides more damage than simply the damage associated with the critical rank.

[crb]

See, now this to me is an absolutely awesome idea, and far more sorcerous than a ball spell. Simply making an open version of the disease spell would be totally badass.

My only point about the ball spell is that it just seems like a "grass is greener on the other side of the fence" solution. I think you could have something equally powerful but more in the sorcerer them.

Mass disease totally fits this bill, especially if the disease does more than just suck down hp: itching, lowered AS/DS, increased RT... there are a lot of things you could tie in with disease. It would be akin to a warrior's berserk: fire it and forget it. 30 seconds later everything is dead or incapacitated.

I can do that in less than 30 seconds already.

That in general has been the problem with disease. Disease screams out for damage over time, and damage over time spells are almost universally substandard and rarely used. Simply because in today's combat environment pure killing speed is one of the assets balanced against critter manuevers, and no one wants to sit around waiting 30 seconds for a spell to work when the critter can kill you at any moment.

So you have to incapacitate the critter, up front, and keep it incapacitated, until your DOT spell works.

It ends up being the least efficient way to kill something.

The only exception to this rule are critters that do not run away when a DOT approaches (such as from clouds or tempests) and do not have manuever attacks, but are old enough so the caster hunting them will have enough mana to use the DOT spell.

This fits very very few hunting areas. Lesser Souls in the rift, and eidolons in bonespear are the only two I ever hunted this way with. But both critters may have changed since I last hunted them.

So, with disease, if it is DOT, it isn't going to work. No matter how cool a DOT it is, people just aren't going to use it unless it instantly does something.

Others have also tossed out the idea of contagious diseases, let a disease spread through a hunting area. This would only be applicable to areas with high critter populations, like OTF, but because of changes to experience absorption where you don't get any if you wound something but then go to town or to a node, there isn't much point to try for something like this. You'd disease a bunch of critters, but... you still have to keep hunting to fry. Might as well not spend the mana on that disease in the first place.

Honestly, the only concepts for disease I've heard that would remotely work would be like "disease bolt" which is just a bolt spell in the end.

Otherwise if it is a DOT spell it is so limited in it's use it might as well be a curse, like nightmare, which thankfully is now for sure going to be a curse. We definitely didn't need 3 spell slots in the mid teens for DOT spells.

[Archigeek]

So you have to incapacitate the critter, up front, and keep it incapacitated, until your DOT spell works.

It ends up being the least efficient way to kill something. -CRB

Which is why I suggested this:


Mass disease totally fits this bill, especially if the disease does more than just suck down hp: itching, lowered AS/DS, increased RT... there are a lot of things you could tie in with disease. It would be akin to a warrior's berserk: fire it and forget it. 30 seconds later everything is dead or incapacitated.

A mass disease spell could be an excellent, and fun, method of crowd control and help you avoid maneuvers and other attack while you proceed to pick off critters one at a time. The HP loss is a bonus, but the itching, AS/DS loss, increased RT, etc that incapacitate the crowd are the real benefit.

[Fatsix]

Balefire should allow the user to Burn people out of tables. AKA Someone..

[Riltus]

It appears that damage resulting from the criticals caused by the demon/splash have +25 damage attached to each one.

So, at least this provides more damage than simply the damage associated with the critical rank.

I believe what you're seeing is not extra damage but the troll's crit padding reducing the crit rank. The padding reduces the crit rank but not the damage. Splash damage and CS based attacks use a different damage value table than the AS table. Generally, crit rank = damage/5.

... 20 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the jungle troll's chest! (Rank 4 reduced to rank 1)

... 40 points of damage!
Intense arc of energy flays the jungle troll's arm to the bone! (Rank 8 reduced to rank 4)

... 45 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the jungle troll's leg to explode! (Rank 9 reduced to rank 5)

... 40 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg! (Rank 8 reduced to rank 4)

Mark

[Latrinsorm]

There's a mechanic in another game I play that offers a 1 out of 20 chance for instant death. Perhaps that could be added to this spell to grant it sufficient sorcerousocity? Although the other game has incredibly inflated monster hit points relative to Gemstone, maybe 1 out of 10 would be better.

[Danical]

I believe what you're seeing is not extra damage but the troll's crit padding reducing the crit rank. The padding reduces the crit rank but not the damage. Splash damage and CS based attacks use a different damage value table than the AS table. Generally, crit rank = damage/5.

... 20 points of damage!
Blow leaves an imprint on the jungle troll's chest! (Rank 4 reduced to rank 1)

... 40 points of damage!
Intense arc of energy flays the jungle troll's arm to the bone! (Rank 8 reduced to rank 4)

... 45 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the jungle troll's leg to explode! (Rank 9 reduced to rank 5)

... 40 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg! (Rank 8 reduced to rank 4)

Mark

I thought jTrolls only had ~10 points of padding, though. How could 10 points of crit padding have such a reduction in crit rank.

Also, I've never seen splashes from ball spells hit for anything above rank 5 unless the character is significantly above the critter level.

EDIT: Not to say that what you said isn't the case, as it would seem to be a more reasonable explanation than, lol +25.

[Tolwynn]

There's a mechanic in another game I play that offers a 1 out of 20 chance for instant death. Perhaps that could be added to this spell to grant it sufficient sorcerousocity? Although the other game has incredibly inflated monster hit points relative to Gemstone, maybe 1 out of 10 would be better.

Isn't this already present in Smite/Bane, which is also a plasma based spell?

[FNLN]

Yes.

[phantasm]

I like the idea of an instant death from this spell.
It should be an added layer that the sorcerer prepares some alchemical devices in advance and uses them in combat to add a 5-10% instant death chance per cast.
The %chance you get from the totem could be tied to a spiritual lore.
That would also solve the problem of making the spell feel more like sorcery and less like wizardry.

So if your a little level 40 sorc, that 1x's HP, you can cast this 10 times and will get you fried?

Sorcerers are going to be needing some sort of "spirit leech" spell so they can wrack, leech back up to full and keep on bolting.

[ruineye]

I like the idea of an instant death from this spell.
It should be an added layer that the sorcerer prepares some alchemical devices in advance and uses them in combat to add a 5-10% instant death chance per cast.
The %chance you get from the totem could be tied to a spiritual lore.
That would also solve the problem of making the spell feel more like sorcery and less like wizardry.

Very sad that "more like sorcery" has become synonymous with "burdened by component requirements"...

[Archigeek]

Very sad that "more like sorcery" has become synonymous with "burdened by component requirements"...

This I'll agree with. What a pain in the rear.

I'm not sure why the desire for "instant death" is coming up though. You could add a percent chance for instant death to anything I suppose, but most critters only last a few seconds the way it is... if they're lucky.

[Izzy]

Jesus people. Let's stay within reality here. "Let's make a spell that can insta-kill and use a UNIQUE combat spell verb that doesn't exist anywhere in the game while adding RP factors and lowering the mana cost"

It's a level 13 bolt spell ffs. More damage than it's lower tier counterparts, with a pretty damn awesome (RP-wise, if nothing else) special effect. Not a 50-mana class defining super spell.

[Fallen]

Jesus people. Let's stay within reality here. "Let's make a spell that can insta-kill and use a UNIQUE combat spell verb that doesn't exist anywhere in the game while adding RP factors and lowering the mana cost"

It's a level 13 bolt spell ffs. More damage than it's lower tier counterparts, with a pretty damn awesome (RP-wise, if nothing else) special effect. Not a 50-mana class defining super spell.

That's like squares being handed a new 10 second RT weapon base, and when you offer improvements to it, their defense is, "It hits the hardest out of any in its class!"

And lol at refusal to consider RP fluff being added to a spell: OVERPOWERED!!!!

For the record: Instant-death wouldn't fit the mechanics of a ball bolt spell IMO. You already have a decently high crit-kill due to the high damage ranks you achieve due to generating a high Bolt AS.

[Queleri]

What I'm most concerned with using this spell is the AS factor. I keep 102 spirit barrier up at all times for the DS boost. This is going to result in what a ~-25ish AS to the bolt spell correct? Now we can throw up 117 for an extra AS boost but that's a lot of mana to shell out for one cast. And if we drop the ~25 DS for spirit barrier even in stance guarded I now become much more vulnerable to getting hit regularly, and it doesn't take many hits to me, even with some crit padded doubles. Anyone else share this concern? I'm going to test out using 111 on the next few hunts, with and without 102 to see how using bolt spells will affect my character, but just though I'd mention it.

[BriarFox]

What I'm most concerned with using this spell is the AS factor. I keep 102 spirit barrier up at all times for the DS boost. This is going to result in what a ~-25ish AS to the bolt spell correct? Now we can throw up 117 for an extra AS boost but that's a lot of mana to shell out for one cast. And if we drop the ~25 DS for spirit barrier even in stance guarded I now become much more vulnerable to getting hit regularly, and it doesn't take many hits to me, even with some crit padded doubles. Anyone else share this concern? I'm going to test out using 111 on the next few hunts, with and without 102 to see how using bolt spells will affect my character, but just though I'd mention it.

102 doesn't affect bolt spells, actually.

[IorakeWarhammer]

it doesnt?

EEEENTRESTEEEENG!!!!

[Queleri]

102 doesn't affect bolt spells, actually.

Thank you, didn't realize that. Just Physical AS than?

[BriarFox]

Thank you, didn't realize that. Just Physical AS than?

Yep.

[TheWitch]

Awesome.

Okay, I'm going to get my one complaint out and simultaneously expose myself as the WoT geek that I am.

I WISH they would have either made it work even remotely like balefire in WoT, or named it something else. There, I'm done.

This looks like pretty much exactly what I think many of us were hoping for and it is awesome. The discussions about DF factors and whatnot just confuse me - but green, multi target fire that's actually plasma???

OMFG, it just doesn't get any better than that.

One concern: Multi-opponent combat. Really? Have there been any details about that on the officials, as in training thresholds? Because .... isn't that like 30TPs a rank for sorcerers? I forget, honestly, but if I'm remembering even halfway right and could post on the officials, I would be begging right now for reconsideration of that as a factor.

And one last vague recollection. Some demons, like I believe aishan, don't carry mana. I assume that means they're useless for this demon powerup?

Anyway, awesome looking spell and the disease/curse rewrite is potentially fantastic. Go, go, Strathspey!

[Celephais]

So if your a little level 40 sorc, that 1x's HP, you can cast this 10 times and will get you fried?

Sorcerers are going to be needing some sort of "spirit leech" spell so they can wrack, leech back up to full and keep on bolting.

You don't design spells around if a level 40 sorc could use it as their only means of hunting. It's not like level 40 wizards are expected to only use 910 to fry.

[caelric]

One concern: Multi-opponent combat. Really? Have there been any details about that on the officials, as in training thresholds? Because .... isn't that like 30TPs a rank for sorcerers? I forget, honestly, but if I'm remembering even halfway right and could post on the officials, I would be begging right now for reconsideration of that as a factor.


All ball spells, from all realms, use MOC as one of the determining factors for how much it splashes. This includes wizard ball spells, crystal wands, and 111.

From KP:


A character who trains in Multi Opponent Combat also gains more control over certain magics that can affect multiple foes at once, such as ball spells and Focused Implosion. In general, when a spell-caster trains in Multi Opponent Combat, he or she is usually guaranteed to hit more targets with a secondary effect of the spell.


And yes, it is expensive for sorcs, at 15/10, which usually equates to 35 PTPs for most sorcs. As a note, wizards pay this same cost, as well as empaths. Clerics are slightly cheaper at 15/8. Well worth it, however, as there are benefits to ball spells, benefits to some other multiple target spells, and also benefits to DS against the force on force aspect. 5 ranks is enough to achieve some minor FoF reduction, as well as increase the splash effect significantly.

[Lumi]

Awesome.

Okay, I'm going to get my one complaint out and simultaneously expose myself as the WoT geek that I am.

I haven't even read past this point in your post and I'm going to agree with you. I had a WTFWoT moment when I saw "Balefire" and then read the description.

I love the spell, but I'd change the name, because I'm a Jordan (Sanderson!) junkie. ;)

[Fallen]

All ball spells, from all realms, use MOC as one of the determining factors for how much it splashes. This includes wizard ball spells, crystal wands, and 111.

From KP:


And yes, it is expensive for sorcs, at 15/10, which usually equates to 35 PTPs for most sorcs. As a note, wizards pay this same cost, as well as empaths. Clerics are slightly cheaper at 15/8. Well worth it, however, as there are benefits to ball spells, benefits to some other multiple target spells, and also benefits to DS against the force on force aspect. 5 ranks is enough to achieve some minor FoF reduction, as well as increase the splash effect significantly.

I find the best way to handle MoC as a Pure is to get a PP enhancive for 5-7 RANKS. Expensive to charge, but TPs > Bounty Points.

[caelric]

Not a bad idea

[TheWitch]

All ball spells, from all realms, use MOC as one of the determining factors for how much it splashes. This includes wizard ball spells, crystal wands, and 111.

Yea, I vaguely recall that being the case now that you mention it, but isn't 111 tied to SL Summoning, too, as far as splash potential?

What does 5-7 ranks of MOC get for you when it comes to splash?

I used to know all this stuff, meh.

[Danical]

Yea, I vaguely recall that being the case now that you mention it, but isn't 111 tied to SL Summoning, too, as far as splash potential?

What does 5-7 ranks of MOC get for you when it comes to splash?

I used to know all this stuff, meh.

From KP.



Ball spells are a subgroup of bolt spells that do less damage on a single target but have the ability to perform additional splash damage on several creatures (including the original target) due to explosion of the ball upon impact. Two rolls determine how many creatures you hit, and there is a skill that influences each of the two rolls.

* The first roll determines how many creatures it is possible to splash and is influenced by a different lore depending on the spell: Elemental Lore, Fire for Major Fire (908); Elemental Lore, Water for Major Cold (907); or Spiritual Lore, Summoning for Fire Spirit (111). Major Acid (1710) has no influencing lore.
* The second roll determines how many creatures are actually splashed, with the first roll determining the maximum of the second. The appropriate Lore skill increases the maximum for the first roll, while Multi Opponent Combat (MOC) increases the result for the second roll.

The normal--no additional training ranks in either Lore or MOC--base range of results is 0-8. The roll is weighted in favor of the lower end numbers. The second roll is then 0 to <the results of that first roll>.

For example, assume you have trained enough in Elemental Lore, Fire to increase the maximum possible number of creatures splashed with Major Fire by five, and have trained six times in MOC.

* With twenty creatures in the room, your first roll can be between zero and thirteen (base of 0-8 plus 5 for Lore skill, or 0-13); you cannot possibly hit creatures numbered fourteen through twenty.

[Note that at this step it is always actually a 0-8 die roll; the full Lore benefit is simply added.]

1) The result rolled is a ten, meaning you can hit up to ten creatures.

* The next roll can be anything between zero and ten.

2) A one is rolled, but your six ranks of MOC result in splash damage to seven creatures.

On the other hand, when facing a smaller group all of your Lore skill benefits are still applicable: if there are only 7 creatures in the room and your Lore skill gives you the possibility of +15 targets, your first die roll will be 0-23 [base of 0-8 + 15 from Lore skill]. This makes it very likely that you will actually splash all seven targets most of the time, even if you have no MOC in this instance.

It should also be noted that the first roll takes precedence, such that if your maximum possible number of creatures hit is two, you will not hit more than two, regardless of MOC training.

"A lousy die roll... is a lousy die roll."

[BriarFox]

Yea, I vaguely recall that being the case now that you mention it, but isn't 111 tied to SL Summoning, too, as far as splash potential?

What does 5-7 ranks of MOC get for you when it comes to splash?

I used to know all this stuff, meh.

It increases the DF, like demonology will here. Moc increases the base number of targets hit by the splash on a mostly 1-1 ratio if I recall.

On a WoT note, I have a deeply hooded camouflaged warder's cloak that seems to blend into the surroundings in prime, my shattered ranger is named Taishar Manetheren. Heh.

[caelric]

http://www.krakiipedia.org/wiki/111

[TheWitch]

Doh. KP. Forgot about that, too.
Thanks, guys.

Are all the cool kids playing Shattered now? How did prime hold up?

[Fallen]

Doh. KP. Forgot about that, too.
Thanks, guys.

Are all the cool kids playing Shattered now? How did prime hold up?

I've reactivated to give my take on the sorcery stuff, but not playing for the mo. Everyone else seems to wander between the two instances.

[msconstrew]

Thank you, didn't realize that. Just Physical AS than?

Correct. That's why many Wizards want 102 imbeds.

[Queleri]

Did it ever hinder bolt AS? Like back when it was just a straight +50 to DS in GSIII? Just wondering why I had it in my mind, but I may just be crazy. *shrugs*

[crb]

it did in gs3, they changed it for gs4.

On the topic of MoC, think of it like this. Lore raises your maximum target, moc raises your minimum. It isn't required, but it IS nice.

You definitely notice a benefit with it, when you hit more targets more consistently.

But you don't need a lot of ranks, I only have 5 (plus a +5 enhancive) at some festival MOC belts were sold, which can be bought in playershops.

Most of my characters I only give 2 ranks to. When you're talking about such small numbers, it isn't a huge expense.

More ranks is often superfluous anyways. How often do you find a room of 15 things? 20?

Yes, if I do, I can utterly rape the entire room in sickening fashion thanks to my training, but I also have the indulgence of vast post cap training points.

So don't sweat it, get maybe 1 or 2 ranks, call it good.

[BriarFox]

it did in gs3, they changed it for gs4.

On the topic of MoC, think of it like this. Lore raises your maximum target, moc raises your minimum. It isn't required, but it IS nice.

You definitely notice a benefit with it, when you hit more targets more consistently.

But you don't need a lot of ranks, I only have 5 (plus a +5 enhancive) at some festival MOC belts were sold, which can be bought in playershops.

Most of my characters I only give 2 ranks to. When you're talking about such small numbers, it isn't a huge expense.

More ranks is often superfluous anyways. How often do you find a room of 15 things? 20?

Yes, if I do, I can utterly rape the entire room in sickening fashion thanks to my training, but I also have the indulgence of vast post cap training points.

So don't sweat it, get maybe 1 or 2 ranks, call it good.

Yeah, Viril's right about how many you really need. My shattered empath currently has 7 and is going to 10, but it's mostly for the FoF reduction at 10 ranks. He doesn't need that many for a good splash unless he's grouping in warcamps.

[Methais]

I have 0 MoC ranks and I regularly rape swarms with 908 when I'm not busy raping them with 518.

The higher minimum splash from MoC sounds nice, but at least in my experience it's never seemed necessary.

[Danical]

I have 0 MoC ranks and I regularly rape swarms with 908 when I'm not busy raping them with 518.

The higher minimum splash from MoC sounds nice, but at least in my experience it's never seemed necessary.

With 202 fire lore ranks, you should be seeing your maximum potential for splash (the first roll) be fairly absurd.

Does anyone know how lore calculates this?

[Swami71]

I'd like to see something like a mix between 111 and 1110. The splash of 111 and the CS of 1110. So the initial hit would be an AS attack and then spread to other critters as a CS attack based on MOC or lores. I think that would be unique way to do it.

[Fallen]

Suggest it on the officials. Just be prepared to take some guff.

[caelric]

Be prepared for Doug to tell you that sorcs are overpowered as is, and need to be debuffed, you mean.

[Danical]

I wish they would make a spell like D2 Necromancers Corpse Explosion or D3 Witch Doctors Locus Swarm

http://us.blizzard.com/diablo3/characters/witchdoctor.xml

[crb]

Yeah, Viril's right about how many you really need. My shattered empath currently has 7 and is going to 10, but it's mostly for the FoF reduction at 10 ranks. He doesn't need that many for a good splash unless he's grouping in warcamps.

FOF is not threshold based by the way, each rank helps proportionately.

[Proxy]

nightmare into curse... win, think I mentioned it before but meh. At least its on the table now. 13 mana plus need a demon out for that something extra... Nice to have a little extra use for demons, but were I still playing I'd stick w/ 111, doesn't really seem all that worth it for the 2 extra mana. F'n Epicly Smurftasticly Awesome that work is being done on the scorcery lists though!!! And they actually brought it up on the boards before dropping it in player laps. Gold Star for Strath please.

[Asha]

Oh wow how surprising and original. A plasma based ball spell.
Why does everyone get excited over an AS spell? You're the weakest attack casting pure in game.

[zhelas]

Oh wow how surprising and original. A plasma based ball spell.
Why does everyone get excited over an AS spell? You're the weakest attack casting pure in game.


People will also be quick to point out that the presence of a direct aimed attack spell represents a major change in the composition of this spell list which makes it similar to the other pure caster's profession lists, and yet there is still a glaring disparity in the lack of a bolt AS enhancer. We already have plans for this, but that will be discussed in another (future) thread.

As much as this is true. 111 and 118 worked great during the recent invasions at the landing.

I am interested to see what the AS enhancer will be.

[Fallen]

Oh wow how surprising and original. A plasma based ball spell.
Why does everyone get excited over an AS spell? You're the weakest attack casting pure in game.

They are planning to give us an AS boosting spell as well. I'm thinking they want non-wizard pures to cap out at +90 AS via spells. I tend to agree with you, though, that the spell could use a bit more oomph. I suggested they allow a single-target version of the spell with a higher DF, as well as a few RPish verbs for playing around with Balefire.

[zhelas]

They are planning to give us an AS boosting spell as well. I'm thinking they want non-wizard pures to cap out at +90 AS via spells. I tend to agree with you, though, that the spell could use a bit more oomph. I suggested they allow a single-target version of the spell with a higher DF, as well as a few RPish verbs for playing around with Balefire.

As long as it isn't some silly Alchemy potion or gizmo.

[Fallen]

As long as it isn't some silly Alchemy potion or gizmo.

If our Bolt AS comes from Alchemy I think I would have to find Strathspey and burn his house down.

[StrayRogue]

Moral of the story: Nothing makes sorcerers happy.

[Fallen]

Moral of the story: Nothing makes sorcerers happy.

You wouldn't have it any other way, SR.

[Asha]

Moral of the story: Nothing makes sorcerers happy.

Why should anyone be happy with a broken spell list and a completely cut / paste ball spell? No one should be excited over this. It's a drop in the ocean as far as fixing one of the most broken professions in game when they're too busy ironing out fucking monks to have the time.

[Fallen]

Why should anyone be happy with a broken spell list and a completely cut / paste ball spell? No one should be excited over this. It's a drop in the ocean as far as fixing one of the most broken professions in game when they're too busy ironing out fucking monks to have the time.

In the spell's defense, it is supposed to have the highest bolt DF of any ball bolt spell. It deserves it, given its mana cost. It will be the most expensive ball bolt spell in the game by 2 mana. My only problem with it is it doesn't bring anything new to the sorcerer's arsinal. We've already a bolt which disables things (Web), and a splash damage bolt (Fire Spirit).

I would rather the spell do very little damage and have a high chance to disable the entire room, OR do massive damage and a decent chance of death to the 1 target it strikes without requiring a high endroll. However, as I have stated in the past, if they were to release the spell as-is I wouldn't be disappointed.

The fix to sorcery looks like it is FINALLY coming down the pipe. Bolt AS increase, Balefire, and changes to curse have already been announced from multiple sources. For Strathspey to already have this spell coded looks like sorcerer development is in better condition that I had originally thought.

[Asha]

I would rather the spell do very little damage and have a high chance to disable the entire room, OR do massive damage and a decent chance of death to the 1 target it strikes without requiring a high endroll.

For that there's 720.
As regards to the rest of your points I agree. It's better late than never too.
Heh I threw in the towel when alchemy came out anyway so it's not my problem anymore. Phew.

[Fallen]

For that there's 720.
As regards to the rest of your points I agree. It's better late than never too.
Heh I threw in the towel when alchemy came out anyway so it's not my problem anymore. Phew.

720 brings with it many limitations. Some creatures are flat-out immune, while others are highly resistant. It leaves no corpse. It has a very rigid level cap in terms of being able to land on the target at all. There is no way to improve 720 once you're at cap with 2x Spell Aim. It can destroy stolen gear on the creature, or other people's items left in the room. Don't get me wrong, it is a fine spell, but it isn't the end all be all of attack spells.

Bolt spells allow you to strike creatures even if they are 10, 20, even 30+ levels above you, evade aside. You can scale your bolt AS up via any number of means. You can also lower the Bolt DS of creatures via any number of means. They are often the ONLY way sorcerers can reliably attack during invasions, as creatures TDs may be impossibly high to ward, and their level is far beyond anything implosion can touch.

[Danical]

Depending on how the demon crit correlates to the initial crit, you may have a very likely chance to kill the initial creature. That's pretty good news.

My only problem with the spell, now, is mechanically, it doesn't seem to be very inventive or creative. I would have liked to have seen a cool new disabler or interaction with other spells. Like, creatures hit by the balefire have negative crit padding or resistance.

[Fallen]

Depending on how the demon crit correlates to the initial crit, you may have to very likely chances kill the initial creature. That's pretty good news.

My only problem with the spell, now, is mechanically, it doesn't seem to be very inventive or creative. I would have liked to have seen a cool new disabler or interaction with other spells. Like, creatures hit by the balefire have negative crit padding or resistance.

Agreed, but it seems like Monks and Empaths have secondary bolt effects on lockdown.

[StrayRogue]

Why should anyone be happy with a broken spell list and a completely cut / paste ball spell? No one should be excited over this. It's a drop in the ocean as far as fixing one of the most broken professions in game when they're too busy ironing out fucking monks to have the time.

It's not cut and paste? It has it's own, entirely new crit table.

Less QQ, more sorc PewPew.

[Danical]

It's not cut and paste? It has it's own, entirely new crit table.

Less QQ, more sorc PewPew.

No it doesn't. It uses the plasma crit table. It has an entirely new DF table.

(I thought they had a new crit table too, as it was originally worded, until I was corrected).



The damage being done is plasma-based, and features a completely new damage table (for those who like to experiment with such things)

[StrayRogue]

I stand corrected by your corrected correction.

[Asha]

And that's my brain exploding.

[Stanley Burrell]

I cast magic missile at the darkness.

[Asha]

Please find me the link for that. It's been too long.

[zhelas]

Please find me the link for that. It's been too long.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zng5kRle4FA&feature=related.

[Asha]

Ahhh old times..

[grossm]

Epic LARP magic missile:

MAGIC MISSILE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8oWAb5NVALw&feature=fvw)

[Fallen]

I'm glad you guys like the spell so far. All the discussion and analysis and suggestions are welcome, even if we can't use most of the ideas presented. It gets me thinking laterally about issues and opportunities elsewhere in sorcerer development.

We're going to be tweaking some of the specs slightly. Previously the demon's crit would cost it up to 3 mana from its pool. That cost will be fixed at 2 points. (If the demon has less than 2 mana, it won't trigger the extra crit.) The chance for the demon's crit to fire off will be based on the caster's elemental and spiritual mana control skills. For each point of bonus on the seed[1] chart for both EMC bonus and SMC bonus, the chance for the crit goes up by 2%. For example, someone with 30 ranks or 120 bonus of EMC and 40 ranks/140 bonus of SMC has 2 * (15 + 16) = 62% chance of getting that crit. 200 ranks of both gives you 96%.

Illusioned demons won't contribute a crit and thereby won't blow their illusions.

The spell will be available on scrolls. I haven't decided yet if it should be available in regular treasure wands, but there will be an alchemy version. It will also be imbeddable.

The example cast I gave were kind of lousy in retrospect... dan/gnimble was correct in suspecting that the level difference between me and the troll was a little unfair. I think I was in level-100 mode at the time. I'll try to get a few more realistic examples posted tonight.

The rank of the demon's crit is intended to increase with increases of the caster's crit rank, but still be a bit lower. A rank 4 followed by a rank 1 as in the example is possible, but it's the worse-case secenario with respect to ratio of ranks. I think crit randomization got me that time. Hopefully you'll see it more clearly when I post again.

I'm all for including a simple RP feature or two, "simple" meaning something that doesn't provide combat advantages. (Combat advantages have to be considered separately.) Holding a floating ball of flame would be neat, but it would have to be subject to the existing 30-second limitation on prepped spells. That's something I think we'd want to give to wizards and others as well. Keep the suggestions coming.

-Strath

Glad to hear he is open to suggestions.

[Divinity]

I wonder if Robert Jordan stirred in his grave.

[Danical]

My Concerns:


I don't get it . . .

>The rank of the demon's crit is intended to increase with increases of the caster's crit rank, but still be a bit lower. A rank 4 followed by a rank 1 as in the example is possible, but it's the worse-case secenario with respect to ratio of ranks. I think crit randomization got me that time. Hopefully you'll see it more clearly when I post again. -Strath

Even if the demon crit has a potential top-end crit rank equal to the resultant crit from the initial hit (after crit randomization on the initial hit) and then subject to another round of randomization, then I would be exceptionally concerned about the effectiveness of demons with balefire; two rounds of randomization would position the demon crit to a place of comedy. Furthermore, the demon crit seems to be worse than two rounds of randomization. Given the posted example, if the initial crit rank was 4, it would be impossible to get a demon crit of 1 with crit randomization; the spread would be 4, 3, and 2. I can only guess, the crit padding the jungle trolls has applied to the initial crit AND to the demon crit, which creates a double-dip effect. If this is also the case, then anything that has crit padding (quite a few creatures actually have crit padding after analyzing thousands of melee AS/DS resolutions and controlling for Dexterity Bonus) makes the demon crit is even more comical.

Except! You said a rank 1 from an initial rank 4 is possible, which leads me to believe the potential top-end crit rank is actually less than the initial crit rank. Given crit randomization, for this case (initial rank 4 to demon rank 1) to work, the potential demon top-end crit rank must be no less than 2 ranks below the initial crit (rank 2) to achieve a rank 1 after randomization.

Is my understanding of the demon crit component of Balefire correct?

1) The demon crit is subject to Crit Randomization.
2) Crit Padding triggers twice on the creature. Once on the initial crit, and again on the demon crit.
3) The potential top-end demon crit rank (before crit randomization) is less than the initial crit rank.

If one or both of the above is true, I would absolutely not endorse this spell. And if one or both of the above is true, can we [the GS community] continue engaging in dialogue with the GS staff to reach an agreement?



http://www.play.net/forums/messages.asp?forum=102&category=29&topic=2&message=6720

[Donquix]

Not that i'm against the spell getting buffs but the demon component really already is a bonus. Even without the demon crit it's still going to be the highest DF ball spell in the game.

The way I think about it the demon crit is really a function of 725 that just happens to be triggered by balefire, not so much balefire itself. As such crit padding and randomization isn't double dipping so much as affecting both of those spells' damage cycles.

[Asha]

Great. Good for sorcerers. When is this likely to be rolled out? After 750 right?

[Danical]

Not that i'm against the spell getting buffs but the demon component really already is a bonus. Even without the demon crit it's still going to be the highest DF ball spell in the game.

The fact that it has the highest Ball DF isn't saying much at all since ball spells have tragic DFs. Look at it's current DF vs brig; its terrible.

The spell is also the highest costing ball spell; I would think sorcerers would want something more than, "lol, high ball df!"

The demon crit is still costing mana, albeit the demons instead of your own; that mana could still be channeled to you.

Also, let's be honest, the splash damage from ball spells is factually fucking awful, unless you're underhunting.


The way I think about it the demon crit is really a function of 725 that just happens to be triggered by balefire, not so much balefire itself. As such crit padding and randomization isn't double dipping so much as affecting both of those spells' damage cycles.

Actually, double-dipping is exactly what it's doing. To illustrate this better, could you imagine if each resultant crit from DC was subject to crit randomization, where the next crit has a lower ceiling than the previous crit, all the while crit padding further pushing down each successive crit. If you had 10 points of crit padding it would apply to the first crit to the tune of 10 points. Then the next crit again at 10 points, but because the ceiling was pushed down from the first crit, your potential crit is knocked down by 10 more points (total of 20). Third crit would be a total of 30 and so on.

I suppose my perspective was such that the demon aspect was the coolest part of the spell, now it's not at all; it's a comical and forced tie-in.

[Tolwynn]

Also, let's be honest, the splash damage from ball spells is factually fucking awful, unless you're underhunting.

It's also damage you can land on critters you otherwise wouldn't have a snowball's chance of hitting directly with an AS-based cast, that can be useful as well.

[Fallen]

It's also damage you can land on critters you otherwise wouldn't have a snowball's chance of hitting directly with an AS-based cast, that can be useful as well.

If they're too far ahead of you in levels you can outright miss. If they're a decent level above you, you will likely manage 5 damage and a rank 1.

[Donquix]

The fact that it has the highest Ball DF isn't saying much at all since ball spells have tragic DFs. Look at it's current DF vs brig; its terrible.

The spell is also the highest costing ball spell; I would think sorcerers would want something more than, "lol, high ball df!"

The demon crit is still costing mana, albeit the demons instead of your own; that mana could still be channeled to you.

Also, let's be honest, the splash damage from ball spells is factually fucking awful, unless you're underhunting.

Overall effectiveness of ball spells aside, I don't see the problem with the highest DF ball spell having the highest mana cost. That kind of makes sense, doesn't it?

Is the DF high enough to make it worth it compared to the other ball spells? I haven't seen enough of it to say that. If it isn't, it needs to be adjusted, either through the DF or doing something like adjusting the demon crit.


Actually, double-dipping is exactly what it's doing. To illustrate this better, could you imagine if each resultant crit from DC was subject to crit randomization, where the next crit has a lower ceiling than the previous crit, all the while crit padding further pushing down each successive crit. If you had 10 points of crit padding it would apply to the first crit to the tune of 10 points. Then the next crit again at 10 points, but because the ceiling was pushed down from the first crit, your potential crit is knocked down by 10 more points (total of 20). Third crit would be a total of 30 and so on.

I suppose my perspective was such that the demon aspect was the coolest part of the spell, now it's not at all; it's a comical and forced tie-in.

I understand your point about the double dipping, I just disagree. You didn't need to explain again.

I think you should be able to draw a chalk circle around the target to make the demon avoid crit padding...needs more components to be sorcerery anyway :-P

[Danical]

I understand your point about the double dipping, I just disagree. You didn't need to explain again.

You said it wasn't double-dipping, which it is, not that you don't have a problem with it double-dipping; double-dipping is bad design.

I'm just simply not behind this spell anymore. Ball spells are bad enough, the demon aspect of the spell does little to nothing to offset this.

Also, it has a .325 DF on AsG 12 WITH 50 RANKS OF DEMONOLOGY. Meaning, this fucking spell has a DF of .275 while 111 has a DF .270 vs Asg 12.

IT'S COOL GUYS, IT'S GOT LESS THAN 2% BETTER DF THAN 111, BUT IT'S STILL THE HIGHEST!!!!!!

[Fallen]

Well...it's a new spell, so...yay!

[Fallen]

Hi, there. Remember me? Sorry for dropping out of sight like that.

I failed to mention last time that during those first few initial tests that I posted, I had forgotten to turn on the DF increase for demon lore. Or rather, I had forgotten to actually build the switch and THEN turn it on. But now it's on and everything's better. I'm still checking numbers and making sure secondary shots are drilling through that pesky armor when they're supposed to.

Another thing to note is that aishan...don't have a mana battery. Knowing that, we had already come up with a nifty new ability for aishan that other demons won't have.

Looks like discussion was lively while I was out. I'll be catching up on reading and making any necessary comments tomorrow. Yes, tomorrow. What could possibly go wrong? ::dramatic chord::

And now, the stuff I promised.




Level 23, 15 demon ranks

You gesture at a rotting woodsman.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a rotting woodsman!
AS: +144 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +64 = +124
... and hit for 18 points of damage!
Light burns to the rotting woodsman's leg.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a rotting woodsman, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 25 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the rotting woodsman's leg to explode!
It is knocked to the ground!

You gesture at a rotting woodsman.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a rotting woodsman!
AS: +144 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +85 = +145
... and hit for 28 points of damage!
Burst of brilliant energy to head stuns the rotting woodsman for an instant.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a rotting woodsman, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 15 points of damage!
The rotting woodsman's hand blisters and bleeds from intense heat.

You gesture at a rotting woodsman.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a rotting woodsman!
AS: +144 vs DS: +149 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +53 = +113
... and hit for 11 points of damage!
Light burns to the rotting woodsman's head.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a rotting woodsman, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 15 points of damage!
Searing blast of energy to hip spins the rotting woodsman around!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a rotting woodsman.
... 5 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the rotting woodsman's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a rotting woodsman.
... 25 points of damage!
Intense beam of plasma shears away large chunks of the rotting woodsman's forearm!
.
.
.
.
Level 20, 20 demon ranks

You gesture at a wood wight.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a wood wight!
AS: +143 vs DS: +77 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +65 = +196
... and hit for 94 points of damage!
The wood wight is sliced open neatly by brilliant beam of plasma!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a wood wight, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the wood wight's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 15 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the wood wight's stomach leaving painful red streaks.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 15 points of damage!
Light burns to the wood wight's leg.

You gesture at a wood wight.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a wood wight!
AS: +143 vs DS: +77 with AvD: +65 + d100 roll: +12 = +143
... and hit for 35 points of damage!
Dazzling arc of energy traces blackened path across the wood wight's chest!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a wood wight, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 20 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the wood wight's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 5 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the wood wight's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a wood wight.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the wood wight's hand.
.
.
.
.
Level 55, 55 demon ranks, 55 EMC, 55 SMC

You gesture at a nightmare steed.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a nightmare steed!
AS: +223 vs DS: +185 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +79 = +156
... and hit for 27 points of damage!
Intense blast to the nightmare steed's eyelid causes it to sizzle and pop.
The nightmare steed is stunned!
A short silver grey grik'mlar shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your silver grey grik'mlar loses 2 mana.)
... 10 points of damage!
Jarring blow to the nightmare steed's back.

You gesture at a nightmare steed.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a nightmare steed!
AS: +223 vs DS: +182 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +80 = +160
... and hit for 28 points of damage!
Blistering strike to leg shrivels skin and causes excruciating pain.
A short silver grey grik'mlar shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your silver grey grik'mlar loses 2 mana.)
... 15 points of damage!
Patches of flesh removed from right hand.
.
.
.
.
Level 81, 100 demon ranks, 90 EMC, 90 SMC

You gesture at a csetairi.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a csetairi!
AS: +365 vs DS: +232 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +80 = +268
... and hit for 88 points of damage!
Intense beam of plasma shears away large chunks of the csetairi's forearm!
The csetairi is stunned!
A twitchy grey arashan shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey arashan loses 2 mana.)
... 40 points of damage!
The csetairi stunned by strike to hand.
It is knocked to the ground!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a csetairi, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 25 points of damage!
Stunning blast of plasma reduces the csetairi's nose to a blackened stump.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the csetairi's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 15 points of damage!
Plasma scalds the csetairi's stomach leaving painful red streaks.

You gesture at a csetairi.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a csetairi!
AS: +365 vs DS: +232 with AvD: +55 + d100 roll: +56 = +244
... and hit for 93 points of damage!
Vicious beam of energy rips open the csetairi's back!
The csetairi is stunned!
A twitchy grey arashan shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your grey arashan loses 2 mana.)
... 25 points of damage!
Just like a brick to the head, without the imprint.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a csetairi, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Pinpoint strike sears the csetairi's chest.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 25 points of damage!
The csetairi is stunned!

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a csetairi.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to the csetairi's weapon arm.
.
.
.
.

Level 26, 10 demon ranks

You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +162 vs DS: +91 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +85 = +195
... and hit for 47 points of damage!
Searing wave of plasma cuts through skin and muscle on the jungle troll's leg!
The jungle troll is knocked to the ground!
The jungle troll is stunned!
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 20 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 5 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 10 points of damage!
Minor burns to the jungle troll's shield arm.

You gesture at a jungle troll.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a jungle troll!
AS: +162 vs DS: +91 with AvD: +39 + d100 roll: +18 = +128
... and hit for 14 points of damage!
Minor burns to the jungle troll's shield arm.
The ball of greenish-black flame strikes a jungle troll, blossoming into a much larger sphere of flame upon impact.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 15 points of damage!
Minor burns to the jungle troll's weapon arm.

A burst of flame from your ball of greenish-black flame flies off and hits a jungle troll.
... 10 points of damage!
Stinging burn to the jungle troll's hand.
.
.
.
.

Level 89, 120 demon ranks, 100 EMC+SMC
(yeah, Illoke...Tiqal suggested them)

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +148 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +23 = +248
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Skin roasted away from back exposing the Illoke jarl's spinal column!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Tendons in the Illoke jarl's weapon arm snap.

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +154 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +10 = +229
... and hit for 60 points of damage!
Stunning blast of plasma reduces the Illoke jarl's nose to a blackened stump.
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
The Illoke jarl's finger twitches, then explodes.

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +129 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +99 = +343
... and hit for 115 points of damage!
Superheated energy causes the artery in the Illoke jarl's leg to explode!
The Illoke jarl is knocked to the ground!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 40 points of damage!
Over exposure to hot steam leaves neck feeling stiff.
.
.
.
.

Level 100, 80 demon ranks, 120 EMC+SMC

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +368 vs DS: +253 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +67 = +194
... and hit for 40 points of damage!
Nasty strike to the left eye causes it to dim a moment.

You gesture at a spectral triton defender.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at a spectral triton defender!
AS: +368 vs DS: +239 with AvD: +12 + d100 roll: +40 = +181
... and hit for 39 points of damage!
Glancing blow to the stomach.
Good thing it won't be eating soon.

.

[LMingrone]

I really am not loving this idea, although I do love that GMs are trying new things. I think a 13 spell slot would be a great spot for a corpse explosion (as someone mentioned above), and it would be more sorc like. Obviously it would only be worth it in a swarm or invasion. But, think how cool it would be to have weapons, gore and whatever the mob is carrying to explode in all directions. Make it AE, and base it on not hitting you, or any other PC, from getting hit based on agility, dodging, MOC...whatever.

Would probably be over-powered with a wizard casting Col and a sorc casting corpse explosion. It would still be badass.

[Fatsix]

Level 100 and 368AS? no thanks

[Riltus]

Slightly modified cross post from the officials.


Subject to user error, this should be the approximate base Damage Factors (unmodified by Sorcerous Lore, Demonology ranks) for Balefire. Lore ranks will increase the DFs .001 per rank for ranks 1 to 50, .001 per two ranks for ranks 51 to 100 and .001 per four ranks for ranks greater than 100. With 200 ranks the total damage factor increase is .100

Armor Group||Cloth||Leather||Scale||Chain||Plate
DFs||.435||.360||.325||.310||.295
AvDs||65||55/54/53/52||45/43/41/39||38/34/30/26||30/24/18/12


EXAMPLE:

Level 89, 120 demon ranks, 100 EMC+SMC
(yeah, Illoke...Tiqal suggested them)

You gesture at an Illoke jarl.
You hurl a ball of greenish-black flame at an Illoke jarl!
AS: +347 vs DS: +148 with AvD: +26 + d100 roll: +23 = +248
... and hit for 83 points of damage!
Skin roasted away from back exposing the Illoke jarl's spinal column!
The Illoke jarl is stunned!
A clear-eyed bronze verlok'asha shudders slightly as chaotic energy is drawn from its form and fused with the attack.
(Your bronze verlok'asha loses 2 mana.)
... 20 points of damage!
Tendons in the Illoke jarl's weapon arm snap.

Endroll success margin: 148
Base damage factor vs chain: .310
DF lore bonus: .080 [120 ranks (.050 ranks 1 to 50) + (.025 ranks 51 to 100) + (.005 ranks 101 to 120)]
Modified damage factor: .390
Raw damage: 58 (.390 * 148)
Crit damage: 25 (rank 5 plasma back critical)
Total damage: 83

There is also 20 additional points of damage and a rank 2, right arm, disruption critical from the demon's presence. Lorae'tyr: randomly either steam or disruption damage.

Mark

[Fallen]

Was confused for a moment, but it looks like Balefire follows the standard DF progression of every other bolt as outlined by Mark/Riltus.

[Danical]

I"m not pleased with the demon crit; it blows horribly.

[Fallen]

I"m not pleased with the demon crit; it blows horribly.

There are dozens of ways which it could be improved, none of which are likely to take place. I would be happy with being able to choose our own flare via a demon architype. That way you could use Unbalance to turn the bolt into an effective disabler for that one target.

Beyond that, have training of either ranks beyond 100, or training at a level of 1.X demonology increase the ceiling of crits. You could also have the demon "flare" with a chance at higher damage than normal. Flare chance could be random, or tied into demonology ranks.

I personally liked Virilneus's idea of allowing Balefire to bypass anti-magic. The whole point of this spell is to provide us with an alternative means to strike at critters beyond CS/TD. Allowing Balefire to bypass anti-magic defenses fits with that theme excellently.

[Fatsix]

If lores are going to factor in that much, they need to be cheaper.

[Danical]

There are dozens of ways which it could be improved, none of which are likely to take place. I would be happy with being able to choose our own flare via a demon architype. That way you could use Unbalance to turn the bolt into an effective disabler for that one target.

Beyond that, have training of either ranks beyond 100, or training at a level of 1.X demonology increase the ceiling of crits. You could also have the demon "flare" with a chance at higher damage than normal. Flare chance could be random, or tied into demonology ranks.

I personally liked Virilneus's idea of allowing Balefire to bypass anti-magic. The whole point of this spell is to provide us with an alternative means to strike at critters beyond CD/TD. Allowing Balefire to bypass anti-magic defenses fits with that theme excellently.

Balefire will never, ever, bypass anti-magic. You'd be circumventing a very deliberate design choice.

[Rathain]

Balefire will never, ever, bypass anti-magic. You'd be circumventing a very deliberate design choice.

I think it might be more Virilneus not getting what he wants and asking for the moon instead.

Still though, I hope they increase the DF and up the critical effect, because this spell is only marginally more effective than 111. In the current design, this spell is too redundant --there really is no point to adding this spell if it provides an alternative bolt option but doesn't deliver in results.

[Fallen]

I think it might be more Virilneus not getting what he wants and asking for the moon instead.

Still though, I hope they increase the DF and up the critical effect, because this spell is only marginally more effective than 111. In the current design, this spell is too redundant --there really is no point to adding this spell if it provides an alternative bolt option but doesn't deliver in results.

Agreed.

We'd be gaining a Bolt that has a DF based on Demonology over Summoning, which is nice. I personally don't see me ever having more Demonology than I do summoning, but i'm likely the exception in that regard. Summoning lore is awesome.

We'd be gaining a bolt that does plasma damage over fire, which is IMO a wash. I've seen this used as a justification for the spell. Is the plasma damage table that superior to that of fire? (Immunities/Weaknesses aside)

Finally, we'd be gaining the chance for whatever damage the demon did to the initial target over no additional damage (outside of fire weaknesses). As Danical points out, this isn't much. The additional mana cost is neglegable, as you would just add the mana while resting. It is more an inconvenience than a true cost.

Like I said, I would like the ability to turn the spell into a single-target version with a substancially higher DF and greater opportunity for increase demon-based damage. That would give the spell an edge over Fire Spirit. So far, Strath hasn't responded to that suggestion at all, which likely means it is a no-go.

[Liberi Fatali]

Like I said, I would like the ability to turn the spell into a single-target version with a substancially higher DF and greater opportunity for increase demon-based damage. That would give the spell an edge over Fire Spirit. So far, Strath hasn't responded to that suggestion at all, which likely means it is a no-go.

Didn't he post this morning (at the crack of dawn, mind you) saying he was going to read up on all the posts and respond later? He hasn't done that, so don't get your knickers in a twist quite just yet.

[Fallen]

Didn't he post this morning (at the crack of dawn, mind you) saying he was going to read up on all the posts and respond later? He hasn't done that, so don't get your knickers in a twist quite just yet.

I had suggested the idea 2 posts of his ago. He had commented in one of those posts that he had read the discussion up until that point. Knickers justifiably twisted.

[audioserf]

Why are all of his examples such a shit bolt AS?

Level 23 and 144 AS, really?

[Fallen]

Why are all of his examples such a shit bolt AS?

Level 23 and 144 AS, really?

I imagine he didn't bother optimizing for Bolt AS because it is generally accepted that we will be receiving aid in that regard.

[Fortybox]

Please tell me if I am missing something here, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

Why not develop a spell that increases a sorcerer's AS first so that they can use bolt spells viably and then develop the "Wheel of Time" spell.

Seriously, who actually manages these people? How many thousands of dollars have been thrown down the drain due to misplaced priorities?

ZOMG

[Rathain]

Seriously, who actually manages these people? How many thousands of dollars have been thrown down the drain due to misplaced priorities?
ZOMG

Thousands of dollars? Judging by their production, I thought GM's were compensated by means of free accounts, a pat on the back, and a bag of peanuts.

[caelric]

Only senior GM's get the bag of peanuts, the rest are lucky if they get the pat on the back

[Fallen]

Please tell me if I am missing something here, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

Why not develop a spell that increases a sorcerer's AS first so that they can use bolt spells viably and then develop the "Wheel of Time" spell.

Seriously, who actually manages these people? How many thousands of dollars have been thrown down the drain due to misplaced priorities?

ZOMG

I think they threw us a bone. They had Balefire finished in the test instance and said, "Here, let them chew on this to show them we're actively working."

I believe they are also working on the rest of the review, in its various parts. However, they are probably still in the Concept/Design phase, so aren't ready to show off the various aspects of the system. They may also tweak Balefire, but I imagine that is a far simplier proposition.

Just a guess, though.

[Fatsix]

How many thousands of dollars have been thrown down the drain due to misplaced priorities?



Oh cmon, illistim really needed to be updated!

[Izzy]

Please tell me if I am missing something here, but isn't this putting the cart before the horse?

Why not develop a spell that increases a sorcerer's AS first so that they can use bolt spells viably and then develop the "Wheel of Time" spell.

Seriously, who actually manages these people? How many thousands of dollars have been thrown down the drain due to misplaced priorities?

ZOMG

I'm not sure what there is to complain about there. He had a 100% chance to hit against what I assume is something at least near level 100, if not there (never made it that high). Hard to get more viable than zero chance of failure. Just because you think ZOMG MOAR AS is the only answer to everything doesn't mean that it's true. Also, lol@ "thousands of dollars". God I get sick of people bitching all the time. stfu and appreciate that anything is happening at all. Or don't play. Or just stfu.

[Fallen]

I'm not sure what there is to complain about there. He had a 100% chance to hit against what I assume is something at least near level 100, if not there (never made it that high). Hard to get more viable than zero chance of failure. Just because you think ZOMG MOAR AS is the only answer to everything doesn't mean that it's true. Also, lol@ "thousands of dollars". God I get sick of people bitching all the time. stfu and appreciate that anything is happening at all. Or don't play. Or just stfu.

What's important to keep in mind here, folks, is that Izzy is upset. Remember that and from now on things will be ok.

[Fortybox]

Um...thousands of dollars or more is reasonable if you look at opportunity costs. How much more money could Simutronics make if they weren't being so stupid. Maybe not with just this spell but when you add up all the ridiculous crap over the past 20ish years thousands of dollars is a reasonable assumption.

And just because people question a company that has a reputation for making retarded business decisions doesn't mean it is whining.

[Izzy]

What's important to keep in mind here, folks, is that Izzy is upset. Remember that and from now on things will be ok.

It's just so disheartening to see that nobody seems to appreciate what is obviously a lot of work coming from people that don't seem to get compensated very well. Maybe not every idea that comes out of their dev team matches up with everyone's expectations. That's the nature of games, not everyone is going to be happy about it. I understand coming up with constructive criticisms to try and improve upon ideas, but by and large that's not what happens;people just cry and moan and say "do it my way or I'll quit, eff you." It gets old.

[Fallen]

The spell was presented so that it could be properly critiqued, Izzy. You could say that objections based on the spell that aren't constructive could make Strath sad, but I highly doubt he reads these boards and none of that is taking place on the officials.

[rolfard]

why o why did i think we'd get this spell RSN?