Man-boy love in Afghanistan

[sst]

Click for article (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2010/08/28/INF21F2Q9H.DTL)


Western forces fighting in southern Afghanistan had a problem. Too often, soldiers on patrol passed an older man walking hand-in-hand with a pretty young boy. Their behavior suggested he was not the boy's father. Then, British soldiers found that young Afghan men were actually trying to "touch and fondle them," military investigator AnnaMaria Cardinalli told me. "The soldiers didn't understand."


All of this was so disconcerting that the Defense Department hired Cardinalli, a social scientist, to examine this mystery. Her report, "Pashtun Sexuality," startled not even one Afghan. But Western forces were shocked - and repulsed.

For centuries, Afghan men have taken boys, roughly 9 to 15 years old, as lovers. Some research suggests that half the Pashtun tribal members in Kandahar and other southern towns are bacha baz, the term for an older man with a boy lover. Literally it means "boy player." The men like to boast about it.

"Having a boy has become a custom for us," Enayatullah, a 42-year-old in Baghlan province, told a Reuters reporter. "Whoever wants to show off should have a boy."

Baghlan province is in the northeast, but Afghans say pedophilia is most prevalent among Pashtun men in the south. The Pashtun are Afghanistan's most important tribe. For centuries, the nation's leaders have been Pashtun.

President Hamid Karzai is Pashtun, from a village near Kandahar, and he has six brothers. So the natural question arises: Has anyone in the Karzai family been bacha baz? Two Afghans with close connections to the Karzai family told me they know that at least one family member and perhaps two were bacha baz. Afraid of retribution, both declined to be identified and would not be more specific for publication.

As for Karzai, an American who worked in and around his palace in an official capacity for many months told me that homosexual behavior "was rampant" among "soldiers and guys on the security detail. They talked about boys all the time."

He added, "I didn't see Karzai with anyone. He was in his palace most of the time." He, too, declined to be identified.

In Kandahar, population about 500,000, and other towns, dance parties are a popular, often weekly, pastime. Young boys dress up as girls, wearing makeup and bells on their feet, and dance for a dozen or more leering middle-aged men who throw money at them and then take them home. A recent State Department report called "dancing boys" a "widespread, culturally sanctioned form of male rape."

So, why are American and NATO forces fighting and dying to defend tens of thousands of proud pedophiles, certainly more per capita than any other place on Earth? And how did Afghanistan become the pedophilia capital of Asia?

Sociologists and anthropologists say the problem results from perverse interpretation of Islamic law. Women are simply unapproachable. Afghan men cannot talk to an unrelated woman until after proposing marriage. Before then, they can't even look at a woman, except perhaps her feet. Otherwise she is covered, head to ankle.

"How can you fall in love if you can't see her face," 29-year-old Mohammed Daud told reporters. "We can see the boys, so we can tell which are beautiful."

Even after marriage, many men keep their boys, suggesting a loveless life at home. A favored Afghan expression goes: "Women are for children, boys are for pleasure." Fundamentalist imams, exaggerating a biblical passage on menstruation, teach that women are "unclean" and therefore distasteful. One married man even asked Cardinalli's team "how his wife could become pregnant," her report said. When that was explained, he "reacted with disgust" and asked, "How could one feel desire to be with a woman, who God has made unclean?"

That helps explain why women are hidden away - and stoned to death if they are perceived to have misbehaved. Islamic law also forbids homosexuality. But the pedophiles explain that away. It's not homosexuality, they aver, because they aren't in love with their boys.

Addressing the loathsome mistreatment of Afghan women remains a primary goal for coalition governments, as it should be.

But what about the boys, thousands upon thousands of little boys who are victims of serial rape over many years, destroying their lives - and Afghan society.

"There's no issue more horrifying and more deserving of our attention than this," Cardinalli said. "I'm continually haunted by what I saw."

As one boy, in tow of a man he called "my lord," told the Reuters reporter: "Once I grow up, I will be an owner, and I will have my own boys."
-----------------------------------------------------------------


I thought this type of thing was common knowledge, but reading this I realized I had never seen a news story about it.

Problem 143 with Islam, this type of thing is accepted

It happens in Iraq, just not as out in the open in Afghanistan.

[Daniel]

If it's a problem with Islam, why is it only predominant in one particular subset of one ethnic group?

That of course assumes that it's as prevalent and as accepted as the article claims. I walk around Kandahar everyday and I'd doubt that, but whatever.

I'm sure someone could look at the tacit acceptance of rape at the hands of Catholic priests for decades (if not longer) as an indication of what is wrong with western society as well.

[Jace Solo]

You make a good point D. Are you there right now?

I knew nothing of it before my tour but I definitely saw (everything but the penetration) while I was in Kuwait and Iraq...in some cases, being a medic, I saw the aftermath on a couple boys.

I'm surprised the article didn't even have a sentence that approached the accepted practice of beasiality, which I have seen happen.

We assume again that our laws are what should be upheld but their religion and way of life is to dominate by overpowering and to incite fear which they do to anyone whom they think be weaker.

My main issue is that they believe we are weaker and, pending the GZ "community center" they want to build, are conquered. That's how the Karan says they show that they have conquered a people.

[Daniel]

You make a good point D. Are you there right now?


Yes.



I knew nothing of it before my tour but I definitely saw (everything but the penetration) while I was in Kuwait and Iraq...in some cases, being a medic, I saw the aftermath on a couple boys.

I'm surprised the article didn't even have a sentence that approached the accepted practice of beasiality, which I have seen happen.

We assume again that our laws are what should be upheld but their religion and way of life is to dominate by overpowering and to incite fear which they do to anyone whom they think be weaker.

My main issue is that they believe we are weaker and, pending the GZ "community center" they want to build, are conquered. That's how the Karan says they show that they have conquered a people.

Uh. No.

[TheEschaton]

And here I thought mosques were for praying in.

[Latrinsorm]

I wonder how you go from "Fundamentalist imams, exaggerating a biblical passage on menstruation, teach that women are "unclean" and therefore distasteful. ... Islamic law also forbids homosexuality." to "Problem 143 with Islam, this type of thing is accepted". Even if you knew nothing about Islam, the article specifically states that it is against this sort of thing. This is made even more puzzling by the fact that you do know something about Islam.

In sum: leave the clyding to ClydeR. :yes:

[sst]

If it's a problem with Islam, why is it only predominant in one particular subset of one ethnic group?

That of course assumes that it's as prevalent and as accepted as the article claims. I walk around Kandahar everyday and I'd doubt that, but whatever.

Kandahar is far from representative of Afghanistan. I know its not likely you'll get out much, but know that your view on things from inside the city is not a full picture.

The article only touches on one sect, but You damn well know it went on when you were in Iraq, if you were not aware of it you were not paying attention.


I'm sure someone could look at the tacit acceptance of rape at the hands of Catholic priests for decades (if not longer) as an indication of what is wrong with western society as well.

Oh come on now, no western government looked the other way that I know of when it came to pedophilia in the Catholic church. Bad comparison.

[Daniel]

Kandahar is far from representative of Afghanistan. I know its not likely you'll get out much, but know that your view on things from inside the city is not a full picture.


I actually walk around the city almost every day.

Your other point is baffling. If Kandahar is not representative of Afghanistan, how can you claim that the man-boy love there is representative of Afghanistan, to say nothing of Islam as a whole.



The article only touches on one sect, but You damn well know it went on when you were in Iraq, if you were not aware of it you were not paying attention.


Not really. I know the Arab culture in general has a lot of mannerisms, such as holding hands and hugging, that can be viewed as homosexual by westerners. I never actually saw anybody fucking. I never actually knew anyone who did either. It was all heresay from someone in some other company who we met at the chow hall said he heard it.




Oh come on now, no western government looked the other way that I know of when it came to pedophilia in the Catholic church. Bad comparison.

Are you fucking serious?

[sst]

I wonder how you go from "Fundamentalist imams, exaggerating a biblical passage on menstruation, teach that women are "unclean" and therefore distasteful. ... Islamic law also forbids homosexuality." to "Problem 143 with Islam, this type of thing is accepted". Even if you knew nothing about Islam, the article specifically states that it is against this sort of thing. This is made even more puzzling by the fact that you do know something about Islam.

In sum: leave the clyding to ClydeR. :yes:

I went from Muhammad is a pedophile who get permission from Allah to fuck a 7 year old, to Under one of the many perversions allowed under Islam is to fuck little boys.

Its actually a fairly similar line of reasoning.

And sadly wholly accurate in Iraq and Afghanistan

[Danical]

And sadly wholly accurate in Iraq and Afghanistan

What was your sampling or measurement error?

[TheEschaton]

Dave, once again you prove your moronic tendancies.

[Thug Life]

Not only are muslims dirty raghead terrorists who blow shit up they also rape little boys, what a surprise

[IorakeWarhammer]

I went from Muhammad is a pedophile who get permission from Allah to fuck a 7 year old, to Under one of the many perversions allowed under Islam is to fuck little boys.

Its actually a fairly similar line of reasoning.

And sadly wholly accurate in Iraq and Afghanistan

Aisha, the daughter of Muhammad's best friend and lifetime follower Abu Bakr, was married to Muhammad at 9 and the marriage consummated when she was 15.

The illustrious Prophet (salalaahu alayhi wa sallam) was originally married at 25 to Khadijah (40), who he was married to until she passed away at age 65. Most of his marriages were for the sake of tribal alliances to ensure that Islam would prevail in Arabia.

Aisha (may Allah be pleased with her) loved Muhammad dearly and she was the greatest female scholar in Islamic history. When her father, Abu Bakr, heard a revelation or saying of Muhammad, he would accept it without questioning.

Aisha was different. She questioned EVERYTHING, making the Prophet clarify on many points. She was always challenging him and this brought an advanced level of clarity to the religion.

How dare you reduce this relationship to something purely sexual. You lack knowledge and guidance.

Lastly, if these men are truly committing this grave sin, they are eligible to be thrown from the cliffs of high mountains, as is the punishment for rampant and open homosexuality in Islam. It is not a practice that is accepted, condoned, or tolerated.

~Drew

[Warriorbird]

15 is only suggested by one deeply credulous historian with an agenda.

[IorakeWarhammer]

it doesn't matter as if a woman has completed a few menstrual cycles she is eligible for marriage under Islamic law - as long as she consents to the marriage then it's fine. how many 12 year olds in your town have gotten pregnant? yeah...

so it's fine they sleep around but not fine they get married and have someone take care of them? yeah...

18 is a silly number.

[IorakeWarhammer]

i think you guys should worry about the deviant things happening in your own country before you go worrying about someone else

edit: LIKE CATHOLIC PRIESTS? PLZ PLZ.

[Warriorbird]

I hate to let you know, this is also your country.


it doesn't matter as if a woman has completed a few menstrual cycles she is eligible for marriage under Islamic law - as long as she consents to the marriage then it's fine. how many 12 year olds in your town have gotten pregnant? yeah...

so it's fine they sleep around but not fine they get married and have someone take care of them? yeah...

18 is a silly number.

Your dig at Virginia aside, some girls menstruate at 8 now.

Do you really think that's fine?

Or is it just 'Must tune out all criticisms of Islam!'

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/2010/04/25/

(take note conservatives, I'm actually linking a conservative cartoon)

[Atlanteax]

(take note conservatives, I'm actually linking a conservative cartoon)

Wait ... what is liberal or conservative about that cartoon series?

[Warriorbird]

Wait ... what is liberal or conservative about that cartoon series?

That particular cartoon? Not. The cartoon in general? Uhhh...

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ru/5/55/406_Cartman_Joins_NAMBLA.jpg

[IorakeWarhammer]

i was really just talking to sst

again, if those guys really did that stuff, they should be punished to the harshest extent of Islamic law. Muslims sometimes don't act very Muslim. My effort with my post was trying to separate the conduct of these foul individuals from an often misunderstood marriage 1400 years ago.

[Showal]

President Hamid Karzai is Pashtun, from a village near Kandahar, and he has six brothers. So the natural question arises: Has anyone in the Karzai family been bacha baz? Two Afghans with close connections to the Karzai family told me they know that at least one family member and perhaps two were bacha baz. Afraid of retribution, both declined to be identified and would not be more specific for publication.

As for Karzai, an American who worked in and around his palace in an official capacity for many months told me that homosexual behavior "was rampant" among "soldiers and guys on the security detail. They talked about boys all the time."

He added, "I didn't see Karzai with anyone. He was in his palace most of the time." He, too, declined to be identified.

This article is fucking ridiculous. For the above quote, what a loose way to connect the Karzai family to such a story. "I know people who don't want to be named that say maybe two people in that family were bacha baz! I don't know about Karzai himself though, because he's in his palace most of the time. MAYBE HE'S TOO BUSY HAVING MAN-BOY SEX!!! Oh and I don't want to be identified."

Maybe it's true though, because Karzai's never denied that him or his family members partake in these activities.

This anti-Islam/Muslim issue is foolish. I understood when 9/11 happened and people acted like this. We had an issue blasted in our face that most people didn't understand. Get over it. Seriously.

Do you really really think that Muslim culture is like this? Do you think that in most of these populations their life is so similar to ours that marrying a young girl is the same as picking up chicks at the elementry school? Do you realize that a lot of these villages resemble entering a medieval lifestyle? They have absurdly short life expectancies. When that happens, it's normal to marry and have kids at really young ages. It was just matter of course in Christian cultures for a long time.

You really think that Islamic villages are just filled with perverts and pedophiles? Get your fucking facts straight.

I think these stories come out from what Daniel said. I heard someone from a different unit at the mess hall say he heard someone say that someone they knew saw something like this go on.

I'm not defending you, IW. I think you're a fucking idiot.

[Nieninque]

Oh come on now, no western government looked the other way that I know of when it came to pedophilia in the Catholic church. Bad comparison.

Are you fucking serious?

Sadly, he is.
Therein lies the problem.

[Atlanteax]

That particular cartoon? Not. The cartoon in general? Uhhh...

Wow, no wonder you are so confused when it comes to determining if a cartoon is political or not.

One needs to refer to prior series of work to be able to determine if the cartoonist is a liberal or a conservative. ie, what are the recurring themes supported or ridiculed?

Anyone who links a random one like you did and says "oh it is one from a conservative cartoonist" is full of BS.

However, I think ParkBandit has already pointed this out about you.

[Nieninque]

Wow, no wonder you are so confused when it comes to determining if a cartoon is political or not.

One needs to refer to prior series of work to be able to determine if the cartoonist is a liberal or a conservative. ie, what are the recurring themes supported or ridiculed?

Anyone who links a random one like you did and says "oh it is one from a conservative cartoonist" is full of BS.

However, I think ParkBandit has already pointed this out about you.

Do we need to point out how many have said the same about you?

[IorakeWarhammer]

This article is fucking ridiculous. For the above quote, what a loose way to connect the Karzai family to such a story. "I know people who don't want to be named that say maybe two people in that family were bacha baz! I don't know about Karzai himself though, because he's in his palace most of the time. MAYBE HE'S TOO BUSY HAVING MAN-BOY SEX!!! Oh and I don't want to be identified."

Maybe it's true though, because Karzai's never denied that him or his family members partake in these activities.

This anti-Islam/Muslim issue is foolish. I understood when 9/11 happened and people acted like this. We had an issue blasted in our face that most people didn't understand. Get over it. Seriously.

Do you really really think that Muslim culture is like this? Do you think that in most of these populations their life is so similar to ours that marrying a young girl is the same as picking up chicks at the elementry school? Do you realize that a lot of these villages resemble entering a medieval lifestyle? They have absurdly short life expectancies. When that happens, it's normal to marry and have kids at really young ages. It was just matter of course in Christian cultures for a long time.

You really think that Islamic villages are just filled with perverts and pedophiles? Get your fucking facts straight.

I think these stories come out from what Daniel said. I heard someone from a different unit at the mess hall say he heard someone say that someone they knew saw something like this go on.

I'm not defending you, IW. I think you're a fucking idiot.

i like this because you're keeping it real. and also acknowledging at the same time that i'm an ignorant dotard. made me feel kinda fuzzy inside..

:love:

[sst]

I actually walk around the city almost every day.

There in lies the problem, you walk around Kandahar on a daily basis. Not Afghanistan. Its hard to understand or know what goes on when you're inside a bubble like that.


Your other point is baffling. If Kandahar is not representative of Afghanistan, how can you claim that the man-boy love there is representative of Afghanistan, to say nothing of Islam as a whole.


Kandahar is one city, which is not very representative of the rest of Afghanistan. But i concede that Afghanistan and Iraq are both ass backwards countries, however it being condoned in both countries is suspicious.


Not really. I know the Arab culture in general has a lot of mannerisms, such as holding hands and hugging, that can be viewed as homosexual by westerners. I never actually saw anybody fucking. I never actually knew anyone who did either. It was all hearsay from someone in some other company who we met at the chow hall said he heard it.

We're not talking about mannerisms, and I could give two shits of Ahmed wants to kiss my cheeks, or touch my nose to his. We're talking about having sex with adolescent boys. I understand that you were a driver when you were in Iraq. I understand it was not your job to interact with the populations of Iraq and Afghanistan, so let me tell you. It was common in Afghanistan, very much so, a fair bit more hidden in Iraq but it was under the surface.



Are you fucking serious?
Yes, I was fucking serious. What government condoned sexual abuse by the Catholic church? What western countries allow men to have sex with young boys? Let the Internet know cause I'm sure NAMBLA would love to know.

[Warriorbird]

Wow, no wonder you are so confused when it comes to determining if a cartoon is political or not.

One needs to refer to prior series of work to be able to determine if the cartoonist is a liberal or a conservative. ie, what are the recurring themes supported or ridiculed?

Anyone who links a random one like you did and says "oh it is one from a conservative cartoonist" is full of BS.

However, I think ParkBandit has already pointed this out about you.

For not being from the UP you're pretty fucking retarded. The reason I know about the comic is the guy did some pretty funny anti Obama strips and has railed against the Democratic Congress. PB, Gan or Methais might enjoy it. With you, given the fact that not even Republicans find the political cartoons you post funny there might some difficulty.

Woosh.

[Atlanteax]

I'm from the UP

This explains why you fail to comprehend that not all editorial cartoons are intended to be funny, other than to convey public sentiment or to illustrate a point.

[Daniel]

Wow. Where to begin.



There in lies the problem, you walk around Kandahar on a daily basis. Not Afghanistan. Its hard to understand or know what goes on when you're inside a bubble like that.

Kandahar is one city, which is not very representative of the rest of Afghanistan. But i concede that Afghanistan and Iraq are both ass backwards countries, however it being condoned in both countries is suspicious.


The article you posted uses the experiences of soldiers in Kandahar as the basis for its assertions. You're blatantly invalidating the core inference made in the article with this reasoning. To take it a step further, if Kandahar doesn't represent Afghanistan because it is so unique, then it definitely does not represent Islam.

How can you be this stupid?



We're not talking about mannerisms, and I could give two shits of Ahmed wants to kiss my cheeks, or touch my nose to his. We're talking about having sex with adolescent boys. I understand that you were a driver when you were in Iraq. I understand it was not your job to interact with the populations of Iraq and Afghanistan, so let me tell you. It was common in Afghanistan, very much so, a fair bit more hidden in Iraq but it was under the surface.


Really Dave? So how much butt fucking did you personally witness in each place?

I also can't believe that you continue to try and throw out things I did 7 years ago to somehow prove that you have more insight today.

You really think saying OMG you were a Stryker driver in 2003 (which wasn't in Iraq btw, but I'll let you keep your little ball), you obviously don't know shit in 2010, is somehow a valid criticism?




Yes, I was fucking serious. What government condoned sexual abuse by the Catholic church? What western countries allow men to have sex with young boys? Let the Internet know cause I'm sure NAMBLA would love to know.

Um. I'm sorry, what Government in Iraq or Afghanistan condones sexual abuse? You made a correlation to a religion and a society. If you can't see the similarity to what you are alleged and what happened within the Catholic Church you're a lost fucking cause.

As such, I'll just go with: The Vatican is a Sovereign nation.

[Warriorbird]

This explains why you fail to comprehend that not all editorial cartoons are intended to be funny, other than to convey public sentiment or to illustrate a point.

Well after claiming I was from Michigan (I'm from Wisconsin, actually, that was me pointing to your unthrilling local area after your lame digs at Virginia and Louisiana) you seem to have trouble grasping the fact that your cartoons might not convey very provocative points if not even your theoretical supporters like them.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

That any of you actually are debating with the retarded (Dave) only makes this already retarded thread, more retarded. It's retardeder.

I guess I'm just saying is he has no redeeming qualities.

[Atlanteax]

Well after claiming I was from Michigan (I'm from Wisconsin, actually, that was me pointing to your unthrilling local area after your lame digs at Virginia and Louisiana) you seem to have trouble grasping the fact that your cartoons might not convey very provocative points if not even your theoretical supporters like them.

Isn't Wisconsin the same as the UP?

Anyhow, in regard to that other post of mine that you're apparently referring... "rednecks" = broad inclusion of the uneducated rural south (no college/etc) and "urban ghetto" = broad inclusion of major cities with notable areas of blight like Detroit, Atlanta, Pittsburg, Philadelphia, LA, Miami, Chicago, etc. Which summed up together, makes up for a large portion of the U.S. population.

[Ryvicke]

Isn't Wisconsin the same as the UP?

Oh shit. Oh you didn't.

[Methais]

Isn't Wisconsin the same as the UP?

Anyhow, in regard to that other post of mine that you're apparently referring... "rednecks" = broad inclusion of the uneducated rural south (no college/etc) and "urban ghetto" = broad inclusion of major cities with notable areas of blight like Detroit, Atlanta, Pittsburg, Philadelphia, LA, Miami, Chicago, etc. Which summed up together, makes up for a large portion of the U.S. population.

That doesn't change the fact that your political cartoons are less funny than early 90's Bob Saget jokes on America's Funniest Home Videos.

[Keller]

That doesn't change the fact that your political cartoons are less funny than early 90's Bob Saget jokes on America's Funniest Home Videos.

Good thing you limited that to the early 90s.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

Also relevant:

http://bp3.blogger.com/_5p3ywQwfWjI/RyfS6KXWPeI/AAAAAAAACSM/DyKjshGj6sg/s400/southpark-nambla_1160016406.jpg

[Gelston]

I've seen it here in Helmand. Even the ANA touch children unappropriatly and jokingly. It is fucking sick, but we look the other way.

On another note, I'm almost out of this shithole.

[Ryvicke]

I've seen it here in Helmand. Even the ANA touch children unappropriatly and jokingly. It is fucking sick, but we look the other way.

On another note, I'm almost out of this shithole.

ANA? Please not ... the only acronyms I'm finding that it could be...

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

ANA? Please not ... the only acronyms I'm finding that it could be...

I think it means Afghanistan National Army..?

[BriarFox]

Afghani National Army?

[Ryvicke]

Fuck me. Googled helmand, googled ANA. Googling both together gives knowledge. It's a relief that neither the American Nurses Assocation, Autoshift Neutral Activators nor the Associations of Nigerians Abroad are touching little boys (although who knows about that fucking activator, it's AUTOSHIFT).

[Gelston]

ha, yes, Afghan National Army. Sorry

[Warriorbird]

On topic:

http://www.theonion.com/articles/man-already-knows-everything-he-needs-to-know-abou,17990/

[Celephais]

http://shirtshovel.com/products/movies/supertroopers/afghanistanimation-434.jpg