So who's still out there?

[Proxy]

Just curious all a sudden and kind of want to know who's still around, as it pertains to sorcery.

[Asha]

Good question. I can't even remember who's sold out, who's given up and who's still going.

[Proxy]

well I sold out, so there's that. but yeah, stopped paying attention to all things GS right around the sorcery bail out about a year or two ago.

[Fallen]

Virilneus, Syberus, Zhelas, and Swami are all still about. Those are a few of the names I respect in the profession. I'm still waiting for Sorcerer improvements before playing, but to be honest, I want to get back to the lands, and I haven't heard peep out of Strath or Tiqal.

[Makkah]

Jenovadeath is still around.

[Proxy]

Jenovadeath doesn't count

[Cthulu]

Virilneus, Syberus, Zhelas, and Swami are all still about. Those are a few of the names I respect in the profession. I'm still waiting for Sorcerer improvements before playing, but to be honest, I want to get back to the lands, and I haven't heard peep out of Strath or Tiqal.

What the fuck am I missing here that sorcerers need improvements?

/warrior

[Fallen]

What the fuck am I missing here that sorcerers need improvements?

/warrior

Have you an understanding of how lores are best implimented to augment spells? If not, any argument would prove rather fruitless.

[Cthulu]

Have you an understanding of how lores are best implimented to augment spells? If not, any argument would prove rather fruitless.

Have you an understanding of what it's like to play a warrior? If not, any argument would prove rather fruitless.

[Proxy]

Have you an understanding of what it's like to play a warrior? If not, any argument would prove rather fruitless.

I have, made a point before I bailed out to lvl up a toon in every class just to have a little fun. 35th lvl or there abouts if I remember right. And given that I'm still left scratching my head as to wtf is your point? Then again if this is going to be one of those post cap moaning, whimpering, sob stories I'm going to have to bow out. Not interested.

[Sam]

Based on my experience, I'd say every class is overpowered. Unless you're retarded or a terrible typist, the game is pretty simple (at least until level 84).

[IorakeWarhammer]

i used to play Jaeden and i'm still around

[BigWorm]

Virilneus, Syberus, Zhelas, and Swami are all still about. Those are a few of the names I respect in the profession. I'm still waiting for Sorcerer improvements before playing, but to be honest, I want to get back to the lands, and I haven't heard peep out of Strath or Tiqal.

Don't forget about Sereg.

[BriarFox]

Cthulu's perspective could probably be better described as "warriors suck for PvP."

[Swami71]

Virilneus, Syberus, Zhelas, and Swami are all still about. Those are a few of the names I respect in the profession. I'm still waiting for Sorcerer improvements before playing, but to be honest, I want to get back to the lands, and I haven't heard peep out of Strath or Tiqal.

Don't forget Sereg a.k.a. abyran'sa

EDIT: haha yeah what Bigworm said

[Cthulu]

Cthulu's perspective could probably be better described as "warriors suck for PvP."

Initially yes. Now that I've played a sorcerer my perspective is that Warriors suck for PVP and PVE.

[B4Hand]

Virilneus, Syberus, Zhelas, and Swami are all still about. Those are a few of the names I respect in the profession. I'm still waiting for Sorcerer improvements before playing, but to be honest, I want to get back to the lands, and I haven't heard peep out of Strath or Tiqal.

Dude..explore a differnt class! Go way out there..play a halfling Bard or something! Get back in the lands NAO..

P.s. Really, though you should try something new? :hug2:

[Proxy]

Dude..explore a differnt class! Go way out there..play a halfling Bard or something! Get back in the lands NAO..

P.s. Really, though you should try something new? :hug2:

That's always worth a try, didn't work for me very well. Probably had something to due with dealing with so many bugs, glitches, limiters, broken promises, and other such kill joys as a sorcerer player over the years kind of got me into the mind to find them in everything else. and well, game over.

Though I DID have a hell of a lot of fun for a very short period of time when I got it in my grill to roll up a DE Empath and played him as a sorcerer. :D yay sorcer-paths! then I got depressed that my 34th lvl sorcer-path was out doing my 52nd lvl sorcerer.... le sigh

[Donquix]

I have, made a point before I bailed out to lvl up a toon in every class just to have a little fun. 35th lvl or there abouts if I remember right. And given that I'm still left scratching my head as to wtf is your point? Then again if this is going to be one of those post cap moaning, whimpering, sob stories I'm going to have to bow out. Not interested.

oh 35...impressive.

Warriors probably have the most gaping holes at cap and least amount of post-cap development possible.

yay for multiple weapon types and getting that 4th rank of your 2nd armor skill?

Not to say that sorcerers don't need some loving, but playing a warrior to 35 gives you zero qualification to refute the point.

[Proxy]

Warriors probably have the most gaping holes at cap and least amount of post-cap development possible.

yeah, about that...

[Fallen]

Warrior Development has nothing to do with any other profession's development. Warriors unfortunately require major overhaul of the combat systems of the game in order to be brought on par with the rest of the professions. Think Spelldux. Short of that, they are fairly well designed.

[subzero]

Not to say that sorcerers don't need some loving, but playing a warrior to 35 gives you zero qualification to refute the point.

How does this work for a point: The people that should/would be working on sorcery are not the same people that should/would be working on warrior stuff. Arguing about "who needs moar" is senseless considering neither is in contention with the other for resources.

edit: damn me for not clicking the next page

[Cthulu]

Warrior Development has nothing to do with any other profession's development. Warriors unfortunately require major overhaul of the combat systems of the game in order to be brought on par with the rest of the professions. Think Spelldux. Short of that, they are fairly well designed.

Yeah, those warrior sheaths really tied the class together...

[Warriorbird]

I play DR.

[TheLastShamurai]

I play DR.

Inner Fire FTW.

[Kainen]

This thread made me miss Senja, more than I already do. Dammit. :(

[Fallen]

Yeah, those warrior sheaths really tied the class together...

I would say the free guild combat skills helped tie the profession together. Changes to Berserk, MoC, Warcries, and Armor Use went a long ways as well. Any time you want to swap guilds with us pures, you just let me know.

[Warriorbird]

Inner Fire FTW.

That and khri.

[Donquix]

How does this work for a point: The people that should/would be working on sorcery are not the same people that should/would be working on warrior stuff. Arguing about "who needs moar" is senseless considering neither is in contention with the other for resources.

edit: damn me for not clicking the next page

No one was making that argument...the point wasn't about developer time, it was about sorcerers in general being emo for a decade because they can't 1 shot things for 2 mana anymore.


I would say the free guild combat skills helped tie the profession together. Changes to Berserk, MoC, Warcries, and Armor Use went a long ways as well. Any time you want to swap guilds with us pures, you just let me know.

Any time you want to give warriors 3 spell lists worth of abilities in exchange for those guild skills, you let me know.

[Fallen]

Any time you want to give warriors 3 spell lists worth of abilities in exchange for those guild skills, you let me know.

Should they not have to pay any TPs for them, as is their norm?

[Donquix]

Should they not have to pay any TPs for them, as is their norm?

no, i think the sitting around in a room for a few weeks earning next to zero experience is enough.

[Fallen]

no, i think the sitting around in a room for a few weeks earning next to zero experience is enough.

If you cant figure out how to earn close to normal experience while progressing through guild work, I really can't help you. I would suggest posting your difficulties in the appropriate folder to remedy your problem.

[Donquix]

If you cant figure out how to earn close to normal experience while progressing through guild work, I really can't help you. I would suggest posting your difficulties in the appropriate folder to remedy your problem.

close to is a very relative term. If you have some secret code to unlock on-node absorption when you're stuck in the dark room, ice tubs, sweeping floors, etc. for an hour, i'm all ears. If i'm hunting i'm around 1900-2k exp an hour, without doing bounties and without trying very much, that's with around 2-3 minute hunt times. If the hunt times change as little as going to around 5 minutes that drops to 1700-1800. Adding in getting 20 creature reps, running around for doing random guild tasks off node, etc. takes that down to 1500ish or less. I don't consider a best case of 75% of normal to be "close."

The funny thing is I agree with you to an extent. Combat related guild work is an antiquity from before the cman list was developed and just complicates things. It would have been nice if the guild skills were revamped to be more in line with what other guilds receive and had the costs for rogue/warrior cmans adjusted accordingly instead of trying to cram both systems into the same niche.

[Warriorbird]

You can thank Tsoran QQ for it not happening.

[S.S.D.Year]

This thread made me miss Senja, more than I already do. Dammit. :(

Senja was one of the first people I looked for when I returned, as well as Phatall.

Miss you lots! And refer to you often :)

[Asha]

Yeah back in the days of RP Senja was up there. Those were unbelievably good times. When people like her, Avaya (sp) and Mekthros were about.
Once people stopped roleplaying sorcerers really well, people started to think sorcerers were rubbish. It was awesome when they could use their spells and abilities for RP.
When stripped down to plain effectiveness for your TP buck they looked shit.
They were incredible devices for RP though. Way back when people did.

[Makkah]

Senja was fat as fuck, and Mekthros was a kiss ass.

[Asha]

Alright wigga.

[subzero]

No one was making that argument...the point wasn't about developer time, it was about sorcerers in general being emo for a decade because they can't 1 shot things for 2 mana anymore.


It sure sounded like "Psshh, sorcerers need love? No wai! Warriors need it more" to me.

Hooowever, I don't think anyone was saying that sorcerers need upgraded back to the good 'ole days of 1-2 shots of 702 killing anything, 719 returning 30+ mana and killing virtually anything with one shot, 8 mana FI leetness, etc. Stating that things need done to improve the class doesn't mean changes have to go that route.

I haven't played a whole lot over the last 5-6 years or so, so I may be a bit out of touch with some things, but at the pace Simu gets shit done I don't think I could ever be too far behind. Especially considering all the sorcery development over that time period. Oh yeah. All of it!

Anyhow, one of the "sore" areas is lore. After setting the bar on what lore should do for spells, we have fallen behind. Elemental lore is almost completely useless to sorcerers. As a hybrid class, that shouldn't be the case. Then we have sorcerer lore which, in most cases, is a "gimmick" buff. They are nice, certainly, but I think we're due for some performance upgrades in regard to lore and some other spells on our list. Some of which was slated to be done, what, like 3-5 years ago?

Here's how the lore stuff shakes out:


Spell Effect Acceptable? Gimmick?
--------------------------------------------------------
701 N - Health returns Yes No
708 N - animated limbs No Yes
711 N - increase dmg/RT Yes No
730 N - required Yes No

704 D - weight reduction * Yes
712 D - ret. effect Yes No
718 D - multiple Yes No
725 D - multiple Yes Yes
740 D - +success, +group Yes Yes
* - Spell in general needs more; lore could be the way

715 SL:Sum inc. cast str Yes Yes

719 E - LOLdmg increase No Yes


So, for our base list, we have a total of 5 combat spells that our sorcerer lore acceptably affects and we have 4 gimmick spells/effects. There are 2 spells affected by non-sorcerer lore, which is fine, but neither effect is really up to par. Curse strength, while useful for things that are not allowed in Prime, might be fun in Shattered, but thats about it. DC damage boost is a waste of points for elemental lore.

Of the 5 acceptable combat spells, only 1 really increases damage (711). 701 blood pulses are handy and combat-related, but will not help you kill anything any faster outside of an instance where it may have kept you alive. Lore is required for 730, it does nothing to increase damage. Lore makes using 718 easier, safer, and more convenient. Doesn't really provide a direct damage increase. Then there's 712, which is given more of a utility/save-my-ass-please effect that can backfire.

There is nothing to list for minor elemental. For minor spirit, sorcerers have two choices and they are blessings and summoning. Blessing lore for MnS is virtually useless (exception being 117- too bad to get use from that we'd not have summon lore to boost our only bolt spell), but summon lore can be nice. It boosts 110, 111, 118, and 125. Also provides gimmick effects to 106 and 116. SL:S total: 4 combat boosts and 2 gimmicks. Of those four spells, 110 is virtually never used and 125 probably only sees slightly higher field use.

Now lets look at wizards who only have 1 lore-set to choose from as opposed to a hybrid's 3:



Spell Effect Acceptable? Gimmick?
---------------------------------------------------------
504 RT boost Yes No
505 Bolt, DF boost Yes No
506 RT reduction Yes No
509 Str boost Yes No
510 DF boost Yes No
511 Size inc. Yes Yes
512 CC boost, alters 903 Yes No
514 More abilities No *
518 DF boost Yes No
519 multiple Yes No
520 inc. protection No **
* - From my limited experience / training, the threshold is too high for spell to be useful.
** - Not much experience with it, but seems pretty limited in use. Lore could possibly improve by adding spikes/flares?

901 DF boost Yes No
903 DF boost Yes No
906 DF boost Yes No
907 DF boost, +max target Yes No
908 DF boost, +max target Yes No
910 DF boost Yes No
912 +chance vortex No Yes
914 Dur + dmg boost Yes Yes
917 multiple Yes Yes


There are 8 acceptable combat lore-spells in the wizard list (6 bolts) along with 1 gimmick (912) that might actually be more useful than I give it credit for. The MjE list has 7 good combat spells (I don't count slow... people don't really use it, do they?) and 3 gimmicks, of which 2 may be viable combat spells with stupid amounts of lore. I also notice that 0 high level wizard spells, no matter the circle, use lore in any way, be they a requirement or boost (perhaps not entirely relevant to the discussion, but interesting nonetheless considering that it is not the case for the other three pure professions).

Between the two lists for wizards (wiz list is pretty bland overall for lores, due mostly to so many being bolt spells) there are 15 combat spells that benefit from lores and 4 gimmicks.

Even if we were to say, "Hey, wizards have 8 bolt spells in that list" and combined all the bolts into 1, we'd have a total of 8. You're still looking at nearly twice the number of affected spells compared to a sorcerer. In the MjE list alone, there are the same number of affected spells in total as there are the entire sorcerer list. A list which could, maybe even should, have ties to three lore sets vs a wizard's one.

Hell, even clerics have 9 combat spells with lore benefits in their base list. Probably 8 if you don't wanna count 301. Six of those spells get damage boosts via lore while the remainder get an increased capacity for disabling targets.

Sorcerers are also the only pure profession to not have a bolt spell in their circle. Among the four pures, I think it's safe to say that sorcerers have the most to gain by training in spell aiming next to wizards; especially twice a level. Clerics have 306 and 111. I doubt any cleric I level will train spell aiming, but they have a cleric-sphere bolt. Empaths have 1110 (which fucking rocks) and 111; I like my empaths to have the ability to use such wonderful spells that my lores tie in with to make better. Then there are sorcerers. I think it's foolish not to train in aiming as a sorcerer. The benefits to 708, 710, and 720 are worth it alone. Many sorcerers have the skill to utilize a base-list bolt spell, but we have none. We get 111. While good, with lore, we have to sacrifice for said lore. The other classes that have their own bolts in addition to 111 almost get the lore boost for free.

And to wrap it up... components. Jesus fucking Christ with the spell components. Scroll Infusion alone requires so much crap I personally cannot stand the spell and completely forgo even using it. I have a premium account though, so I do have some of it stashed, but if I didn't, that shit wouldn't exist. Minor summoning can be component heavy if you're looking to be able to summon specific demons based on the few specific tasks each can perform. You don't see wizards having that with 920. Animate dead. Yeah. Fucking moonflowers. Anyone try to forage as a sorcerer? Negative profession modifiers that don't make sense are awesome! Troll blood. At minimum, two flasks, a vial, mortar, and pestle. Salt crystals. Gems. All those little things start to add up, believe me.

We're not dead in the water. No class is these days. But we do need work and it doesn't have to be insta-kill upgrades.

[Rimalon]

While I identify with the plight of sorcery, a more striking comparison would be to create a chart of fucking Empath lore benefits instead of a Wizard's.

Elemental lores in general blow dick.

Empaths are OVERPOWERED, from their spells to their alternative XP gain to their TP costs. It's actually quite comical.

FUCKKKKK EMPATHS!

[subzero]

While I identify with the plight of sorcery, a more striking comparison would be to create a chart of fucking Empath lore benefits instead of a Wizard's.

Elemental lores in general blow dick.

Empaths are OVERPOWERED, from their spells to their alternative XP gain to their TP costs. It's actually quite comical.

FUCKKKKK EMPATHS!

I thought about doing empaths since they're the other hybrid pure, but went with wizard since they're more combat-oriented. Empaths are pretty ridiculous, though.

[Asha]

Empaths are the new sorcerers.

[Jace Solo]

MA Wiz/Emp and have some fun. I'm thinking about doing that fairly soon...I have a good idea that could be really fun with 1106 setup and wiz bolting to finish....yum...But I miss seeing Sorcs all over.

Fallen, you should definitely come back. RP an Emp as a Sorc just so we can have you around again. Hell, I might transfer mine to another account and let you play him just to have you around.

PM me if you're interested.

[Fallen]

While I identify with the plight of sorcery, a more striking comparison would be to create a chart of fucking Empath lore benefits instead of a Wizard's.

Elemental lores in general blow dick.

Empaths are OVERPOWERED, from their spells to their alternative XP gain to their TP costs. It's actually quite comical.

FUCKKKKK EMPATHS!

No other class can touch Empaths in terms of Class-Based advantages.

1. Empaths are able to 3x the primary Maneuver Defense Skill at a low cost.

2. Empaths are able to cast their primary circle through any wound. It was balanced when there were only healing spells in the circle, now that is no longer the case.

3. Empaths (and Clerics) can pull off Chain class armor as casters. By comparison, the most feasible heavy armor for Wizards is LBP.

4. Empaths can generate a Melee AS to rival most Semi's until late in the game, and can generate bolt AS as nearly as high (higher with a ton of lores) as Wizards.

5. With 3x PF, Adrenal Surge, and GoS, Empaths can generate massive amounts of mana with little to no drawbacks.

6. Empath TP costs, and alternate XP are both highly advantageous.

The only thing Empaths lack is a maneuver-based knockdown, and a maneuver-based DD spell. The former can be overcome with a few tappable E-wave imbeds. The latter is hardly necessary given the other tools at their disposal. There really isn't any comparison. They are hands-down the best class in the game.

---
As for actually playing an Empath, I would definitely do so ever I ever started Plat. However, in Prime I have only 1 character, and he is the only one I have any desire to play.

[Tare]

No other class can touch Empaths in terms of Class-Based advantages.

1. Empaths are able to 3x the primary Maneuver Defense Skill at a low cost.

2. Empaths are able to cast their primary circle through any wound. It was balanced when there were only healing spells in the circle, now that is no longer the case.

3. Empaths (and Clerics) can pull off Chain class armor as casters. By comparison, the most feasible heavy armor for Wizards is LBP.

4. Empaths can generate a Melee AS to rival most Semi's until late in the game, and can generate bolt AS as nearly as high (higher with a ton of lores) as Wizards.

5. With 3x PF, Adrenal Surge, and GoS, Empaths can generate massive amounts of mana with little to no drawbacks.

6. Empath TP costs, and alternate XP are both highly advantageous.

The only thing Empaths lack is a maneuver-based knockdown, and a maneuver-based DD spell. The former can be overcome with a few tappable E-wave imbeds. The latter is hardly necessary given the other tools at their disposal. There really isn't any comparison. They are hands-down the best class in the game.

---
As for actually playing an Empath, I would definitely do so ever I ever started Plat. However, in Prime I have only 1 character, and he is the only one I have any desire to play.
I got me a level 10 empath :]

[Rimalon]

God, when you lay it all out like that, it seems almost like a cruel joke.

RAWRRRRRRRRFAG!

NGGGGGH!

[Kainen]

Senja was fat as fuck, and Mekthros was a kiss ass.

Haha.. I think you like fat chicks and that's why you always had to make such an issue out of it. Orrr, mebbe it's fat dudes you like and just can't forgive me for not being male.

[BriarFox]

Regarding roleplaying an empath as an evil bastard, I've come up with some fun stuff in Shattered. My empath there can do this stuff to people:

1) Torture - Bind, Harm and Bone Shatter, heal, repeat ad nauseam.
2) Stun and terrify - Empathy
3) Make an attacker kill himself and his friends by injuring/killing my empath - Empathic Link
4) Warp attackers' minds so they defend him - Sympathy
5) Locate, fog, and kill - 225
6) Spirit death an opponent - 208
7) Teleport a group to a Major Sanct, which for Luukos pretty much looks like an underground torture chamber
8) Hunt PCs for experience by killing and then healing them.

So on and so forth.

[Liberi Fatali]

Jenovadeath doesn't count

What the. Why don't I count?! I've never sold out.

[Asha]

RP in the loosest sense of course, BF.

[BriarFox]

RP in the loosest sense of course, BF.

Well, the hard part is actually finding someone else who wants to roleplay.

[Proxy]

What the. Why don't I count?! I've never sold out.

Because your Jenovadeath :whistle:

Edit: As for classes etc, Were I to loose what little sanity I have left and return to GS I'd go Caster Empath with out a second thought. Still like the sorcerer class more just out of principle but, yeah Empath's have everything that counts, sorcery, not so much...

[TheWitch]

I'm not around...although I was toying with it when school starts next week, so.......

I was just doing the usual scan the boards every once in awhile to see if something's going on and it never is, so blow it off for another six weeks thing and there was an actual thread with actual people discussing sorcery! Imagine my shock!

Which wore off upon realizing the thread was about there being nothing new about sorcery. Not shocking at all.

Is Tiqal a full GM yet, anyone know? Has anything happened at all since the hybrid CS fix?

[caelric]

Is Tiqal a full GM yet, anyone know? Has anything happened at all since the hybrid CS fix?

Not that I know of, but I could be wrong, and no. In that order.

[Warriorbird]

http://www.gameandplayer.net/images/plate/plate_08_0401_tiqal.jpg

[zhelas]

I'm not around...although I was toying with it when school starts next week, so.......

Is Tiqal a full GM yet, anyone know? Has anything happened at all since the hybrid CS fix?

First it would be great to have you back!

I know Sereg went to Simucon and chatted with Tiqal, maybe Sereg can chime in here with the answer to your questions.

[Fallen]

That'd be nice.

[subzero]

"lol who are you? Why waste that much time when you have no idea what you're talking about."

That's all you've got? Feel free to elaborate and spread your vast knowledge to the peons of the world.

[IorakeWarhammer]

I played Jaeden in Prime from 1998-2004, human Sorcerer. A lot of people were fans of my "frozen zombie" RP, especially in RR in the late 1990s. Sold out in 2004. Currently play Deron in Prime and Jaeden in Shattered.