Genre crap..

[Cheslica]

There is one thing I do not and will never be able to understand. That is the lack of consistancy with genre throughout gemstone. I mean, think about it. Why can't we make top hats (even though we obviously have the means to make hats and have material) yet we have ice cream.

Dominic in the Rogue's guild kitchen speaks italian, Ebon Gates served ice cream in a cone, our mayor has a spartan office... yet I can't have a top hat or a katana?

I often hear the excuse that the out of genre-words that Gms use are often to allow us to associate the text with something we see daily. Even though this is a prominate trait in rooms, we as players, are not allowed to use certain out of genre things in our alters. Take the mayors office. As previously stated, it's spartan. If he can have a roman office, why can't i have dutch clogs? It's only a description to aide assocation, right?

And piercings.. why can't we pierce navels, tongues, eyebrows, lips, and whatever else you might want? Of course, I hear it is out of genre, but then again, so is ice cream. But wait, what was the excuse for having ice cream? I believe it was because they had all the products needed to produce ice cream in that era. Do we not have metal and sharp pointy things?

Sometimes, policy just doesn't make sense...

[Bobmuhthol]

Did you care to check what god damn era you're talking about? The year is 5103. GemStone DEFINES what is going to be in the game and what isn't because the objects are unknown for the next 3000 years.

"I can't have a top hat, whine whine whine!!! I don't want ice cream, I want Dutch clogs!!!"

They don't have top hats, katanas, or Dutch clogs in the year 5103. They have ice cream.

[Warriorbird]

Because they're from the "Highlander is cool" generation, not the "Ninjas are mammals!" generation. And because most of their genre rules THEY can't follow.

I do think the katana bit will change with the Erithians though. Why? Because even they realize people like them.

[Edited on 8-30-2003 by Warriorbird due to being drunk and mistaking Aeletoi for Erithians]

[Edited on 8-31-2003 by Warriorbird]

[Sweets]

I do think the katana bit will change with the Aeletoi though. Why? Because even they realize people like them.



Huh? I know, I am a bit slow on the upchuck...but what the fu......I have no idea what you just said.




:?:

[theotherjohn]

Originally posted by Cheslica

our mayor has a spartan office...



Spartan means marked by simplicity, frugality, or avoidance of luxury and comfort

[StrayRogue]

We most likely will be getting Eastern gear when the Erithians are released (the...eastern lorekeeper race).

And Bob, where the fuck did you get this notion that Elanthia is Earth in the future? Or rather what does the year matter at all? It has nothing to do with item discovery, or genre suitability.

[Parkbandit]

I was just going to point that out to Bob.. it's not OUR timeline.. it's Elanthia's. There it is the year 5103. That does not equate to mean it's 3100 years in our future.. it just means it's the year 5103 on Elanthia.

Bob does have a point though, that the GMs define what is in genre and what is not. On Elanthia, in the year 5103, it is not in genre to have a top hat. Period.

[StrayRogue]

Or a hand buzzer. Or a lightsaber.

[Terrorize]

Well I for one think katanas should be allowed. But I don't think they should be weighted like the originals were.

[StrayRogue]

The originals weren't weighted. Or atleast some weren't. I used to own a blessable Katana, (although I admit it may just have been a really really old alter).

[Adhara]

I don't mind the GMs determining what's IG and not. I always thought GS was medieval era with some exceptions. What DOES anger me is seeing alterers turn down an item on the claim that it is OOG and then seeing the same item for sale off the shelves at a shop.

For instance... when I read about the top hat, it rang a bell. I remember seeing some for sale not too long ago. Knowing what a demanding crowd you are, I did some research before I posted.

This is one of the tables in Brienne's Bridal at the Artisans' Faire a month ago:

On the silk-covered table you see a small white rose boutonniere, a vibrant orchid boutonniere, a delicate red rose boutonniere, a gold-buckled white leather belt, a knotted black leather belt, an elegant white silk hat, a pointy black silk hat and a tall black silk top hat.

Now *that* is what makes me want to jump at the throat of GMs. They keep saying "it's not because an illegal alter has been made in the past that we must repeat the mistake" oh yeah. But an official, QC'ed shop?!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Or a hand buzzer. Or a lightsaber.

Since both are in the game, I guess the GMs do consider them in genre.

[Weedmage Princess]

Inconsistency has been a problem within Gemstone for quite a while now. I've given up hope on that ever changing.

[StrayRogue]

Agreed.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Weedmage Princess
Inconsistency has been a problem within Gemstone for quite a while now. I've given up hope on that ever changing.

That happens when you have many GMs and nothing really set down as to what is in and not in genre. GMs come and go. It also happens when you have a dynamic game that has been successful for as long as Gemstone has.

I agree though.. it is a problem.

[Scott]

<<<For instance... when I read about the top hat, it rang a bell. I remember seeing some for sale not too long ago. Knowing what a demanding crowd you are, I did some research before I posted.>>

I have "a tattered black satin tophat" sitting in my locker from an invasion. Apperently skeletal type critters wear tophats.

[StrayRogue]

Heh, a Sukara merchant made an Ice age metal recently. There are rules, they just aren't enforced. Its like merchants making uber rare metals from nothing.

[Scott]

Originally posted by StrayRogue
Heh, a Sukara merchant made an Ice age metal recently. There are rules, they just aren't enforced. Its like merchants making uber rare metals from nothing.

That was me (I think you are referring too.) It was not an ice age metal, it was an ice age god. I got a symbol of Klysus (Ice age Luukos) on a bag, and sold it for 7m.

[StrayRogue]

Ah, thanks for the info. Well, if you can do it, flaunt it ;)

[GS4Gurl]

Yeah it depends on the alterer. Since the GM's can't gather the common sense to get together and remind or even inform each other what's supposed to be ingenre then there will always be problems. They will never get it.

[StrayRogue]

Some items just slip through QC. Or some items are even made by GMs for their own characters which then eventually get into circulation. There are some hard rules. I think every GM knows not to make a Katana. Though thats probably because everyone asks for them.

[Adhara]

I know that as long as they will have no written guidelines there will be inconsistencies. But this is what happens in those instances (at least twice to me):

player: I would like a top hat made please.
merchant: Oh but top hats are out of genre my friend! Sorry, no can do.
player: They are currently for sale at Brienne's Bridal. I could go pick one up real quick to show you.
merchant: ...
player: so? will you make one for me?
merchant: No.
player: but why?
merchant: ...
player: well?
merchant: Don't argue with merchants. No means no.

*sigh* It's the whole attitude that says "I am God. First I use logical arguments and when it all crumbles to dust, I can fall back on the fact that I am God" that I can't stand.

[StrayRogue]

Yep, its the power trip syndrome all over again. Although I do feel for Merchants who keep getting asked for crappy alters.

[Hips]

This reminds me of when I was doing the 18 alters for Michiko & Whirlin's wedding.

First, they said they wouldn't make us pure veniom rings. They said that the metal is too light, and that it would float away. (What the hell kind of metal is so light that it floats?!)
So... I made a little trip to Ta'Illistim, and lo and behold... in the boutique there, they sell plain veniom rings. Hey... wouldn't those rings float right off those shelves?

Then I asked if I could have vaalorn added, so it would be a vaalorn & veniom ring. Their reponse was something along the lines of, "Nope, vaalorn is too rare! You can't have that!" So I asked if I could provide the vaalorn for the items we made. THAT was fine with them. But they never asked me for it, so I never gave it to them. *shrug*
And, a few months later, the Anfelt rolls around. They had 13 items that were made of vaalorn. At the Artisan Faire, there were 11 items made of vaalorn. It doesn't seem too rare to me...

And then... when we asked for strapless dresses for the 3 females of the wedding party, -that- was out of genre, too. Guess what they sell off-the-shelf in the boutique in Ta'Illistim? That's right! Strapless items (bodices)!

To see top hats for sale and people making garters when you're not allowed to make either for a wedding that cost $200 and a million silver... well... it sort of made me want to yell at them, "BE CONSISTENT!"

//end rant. :flamed:

[StrayRogue]

Yeah the wedding alters are very similar to the Premium Alters. They are VERY strict in their approach to the letter of the Alteration rules. The merchants in game though...

[Lord Whirlin]

The inconsistancies in the lands are not only in the items that they do and don't create, but even in the monsters that we fight everyday. Take a Banshee, Spectral Warrior, and Wind Witch for example. Each of these creatures, if you attack them, have the ability to vanish. However, If you're fighting two spectral warirors, or two wind witches, you will automatically attack the second one, as if the first one didn't exist. However, with Banshees, the messaging would say "I can not find what you are refering to", even if another one is in the room. I did bug this problem, and I think it has been taken care of.
I believe that Simutronics should have some sort of overseer of the entire item creation, monster creation process. A hivemind. That way, maybe they could remove some inconsistancies.
However, with GS4 being released whenever... hopefully they will acknowledge those kinds of problems and make a job like that, or at least correct most of them.

[StrayRogue]

The GMs should be policed in someway as well. A SIMU internal affairs, if you will.

[imported_Kranar]

One technical solution they could have is a @GENRE verb available to GMs.

It would be like a dictionary, they could type in:

@GENRE tophat

And the verb would return "That item is not listed as being out of genre." or "That item is listed as out of genre."

Now if someone asks for a light saber, and it isn't on the list, then the GM can use their common sense and just do @OOG light saber, and pow, the light saber is added to this master index. The QC team would be primarily incharge of adding and reviewing this master index, and then alterers could add in overly out of genre things to the list, but if it isn't overly out of genre, then it would be acceptable.

[AnticorRifling]

Damnit Kranar I was just getting ready to suggest this although my approch was going to be a bit different. Just have a document or database with all words that are not allowed and why, then when a GM is doing an alter all he/she has to do is search that doc or database for the word. It's something that can be updated as needed, and will give consistent answers as to why a word is not allowed.

[imported_Kranar]

Yeah, it's such a common sense solution, and the idea we both present could easily be expanded upon.

Like you could have it more powerful so that instead of @GENRE light saber, you just type in @GENRE light, and the following would happen:

The following matches your criteria and are considered out of genre:

light saber
light-saber
lightning saber

@GENRE glow

The following items match your criteria and are out of genre:

glowing clothing
glowing armor
glowing shield
glowing sword

Whatever, so on so forth. It would be the master index and it would based on precedent. Everytime a new precedent or new object is introduced that is determined to be out of genre, it's added to the list, everytime an existing object is determined to be no longer out of genre, it's removed.

But ah well...

Originally posted by Bobmuhthol
Did you care to check what god damn era you're talking about? The year is 5103. GemStone DEFINES what is going to be in the game and what isn't because the objects are unknown for the next 3000 years.

"I can't have a top hat, whine whine whine!!! I don't want ice cream, I want Dutch clogs!!!"

They don't have top hats, katanas, or Dutch clogs in the year 5103. They have ice cream.

They have katanas too, turn on the black net.

[Neildo]

They don't have top hats, katanas, or Dutch clogs in the year 5103. They have ice cream.

I've seen NPC's with top hats before and even a couple regular characters. During the first couple Ebon's Gate there was this one "snazzy" skeleton that was dressed that way and the next year he later got married to his lost wife skeleton or some weird deal. There's a couple rare scripted top hats that were sold as well.

Katanas exist even though there was a black out period which I also heard they'll magically be back again soon.

I've also seen wooden clogs sold by merchants most notibly the teleport shoe merchant. I've seen then altered as well.


I was just going to point that out to Bob.. it's not OUR timeline.. it's Elanthia's. There it is the year 5103. That does not equate to mean it's 3100 years in our future.. it just means it's the year 5103 on Elanthia.

Yep.


Bob does have a point though, that the GMs define what is in genre and what is not. On Elanthia, in the year 5103, it is not in genre to have a top hat. Period.

Wrong.

GMs are so full of inconsistancies. They allow one thing but not another which is very similar. Even worse, they do something themselves yet don't allow it for PCs. I've seen top hats on a couple NPC's in my time yet somehow they're not allowed for us? I didn't know a top hat was that special and elite in Elanthia.

Elanthia has no one-fixed culture. There are literally items made from EVERY culture and EVERY time frame. I've seen glasses that shoot lasers, light sabers, UFOs, the world stops spinning, ice cream cones, tequila, katanas, top hats, tribal wear, nose/eye/naval/tongue/lip piercings, wings, bondage wear, bubble making machines, water guns, like someone said a handbuzzer, and 100's of other things I could list.

Elanthia is made up of EVERYTHING from every culture and every time frame but it's not balant and isn't in your face. There's bits and pieces from everything but it doesn't mean all those items that we know that are grouped together in RL aren't grouped together in Elanthia. Just because there may be a UFO, it doesn't mean they're shooting lasers and wielding light sabers. That one laser could be a special artifact of one area and the light saber of another. It doesn't mean they go hand-in-hand all because they're similar as we know them here on Earth.

You can literally have any item you want in Elanthia within reason. The problem comes when you make it blatant. It'd be no problem having a crazy piercing but all of a sudden you'd have a character sporting all leather gear and would roleplay being a dominatrix. That's the problem. Katanas are fine but then you'd have people roleplaying a full on ninja. That light saber would be fine but then you'd have some lame-o with the nickname Luke Skywalker or something.

If you want an item made, go out and get it. Don't worry if a GM says it's OOG and declines you, just go and try it at a different merchant. Each GM has their own set of rules. They don't agree on everything. And remember, the tip to getting an item that isn't usually allowed is to be discrete. Go ahead and get that collar made but not if you're going to have a dominatrix character. Go ahead and get those baggy orange pants with the pant leg rolled up, just don't roleplay a gansta.

And to date, there hasn't been ONE item that I've wanted yet I wasn't able to have made. Sure I've been rejected a couple times but eventually I've gotten it made and I've made some crazy things. And a hint for the alter hunters, if you want crazy items, seek out SENIOR GM merchants. The longer they've been playing, the less current rules they know. And the merchants to stay away from are the fresh and new GMs as those are the hypocritical ones that had fun and broke the rules as their character but now that they're a GM and try and make everything right so they tend to turn into a zealot.. especially the newbie GMs that have such hope in their eyes thinking they can cure the world of all problems. You know, kinda like a rookie cop. :P


I don't mind the GMs determining what's IG and not. I always thought GS was medieval era with some exceptions.

Yep, that's how it is. It's BASE is medievil but due to the fantasy part mixed in, it has exceptions from every time period, even futuristic. That's how fantasy is. And then because of the disgusting types of people we have playing the game who turn the attitude of the characters in game to happy, fluffy, bouncy type people, we then have items like ice cream and other happy, normally OOG crap. If this game were REALLY roleplayed and stuck to how the world was originally intended, without the teen boys/girls, housewives, people who have never before played/roleplayed RPG/fantasy style games/things, we wouldn't be in this whole ungodly mess of a world Elanthia is where we're unable to stick to original designs. But also due to the game being around for over 10 years has a lot to do with it as well.

When a game is around that long, being stuck with original designs will be boring as well as very limiting where you'll run out of ideas so you then have to reinvent yourself and/or bring in new material. But the main part has to deal with making this game "fun" and stuff like ice cream, carnivals, ferris wheels, ice rinks, bingo, slot machines, kobold catapults, killer bunny rabbits on easter, snowmen and other weird stuff invading last Christmas, talking pet rocks, interactive DEAD FRIGGIN ANIMALS and the like are "fun". I admit those dead animals are fun but it's so ungodly stupid seeing so many ignorant people in the game interacting with them. I mean c'mon, gimme a break. Those should be the type of items you screw around with in a private locked room to get your real life giggles at, but not try and roleplay seriously in-game/public.


The originals weren't weighted. Or atleast some weren't. I used to own a blessable Katana, (although I admit it may just have been a really really old alter).[/quote/

Yours was an altered katana, not an original. Yours was either one of the couple altered cleric shop white blades or it was probably from the back room on Teras.

The originals were sold on the juggernaut as something like +17 enchant and heavily crit weighted. And the best part was like they were like less than 200 coins or something like that. I don't remember exactly but yes, it was a bug, heh.

[quote]I know that as long as they will have no written guidelines there will be inconsistencies. But this is what happens in those instances (at least twice to me):

player: I would like a top hat made please.
merchant: Oh but top hats are out of genre my friend! Sorry, no can do.
player: They are currently for sale at Brienne's Bridal. I could go pick one up real quick to show you.
merchant: ...
player: so? will you make one for me?
merchant: No.
player: but why?
merchant: ...
player: well?
merchant: Don't argue with merchants. No means no.

*sigh* It's the whole attitude that says "I am God. First I use logical arguments and when it all crumbles to dust, I can fall back on the fact that I am God" that I can't stand.

That's also because of the OOC nature of the way the GM is roleplaying the merchant.. and the part of you knowing that the merchant is a GM. If things would be roleplayed better, you all wouldn't have that problem. I love the rare merchants that actually do roleplay. Something like a dwarven merchant doing only dwarven-type items. And no them just limiting themselves on the alters doesn't mean roleplay.. I meant what I said, the rare that ARE roleplaying. I love seeing a merchant decline being able to alter an item not because it's OOG (the item could very well be in-genre) but that they haven't seen the item before. Sort of like the dwarven merchant doing only dwarven-type items. If someone asks to have an elven coat made, that dwarf might not even know what the heck it looks like so they wouldn't be skilled enough to make it.. just as an example.

The merchant I remember roleplaying the best that way.. and who I think is the best merchant even, is Dahlgrim.. some dark elf guy from like I dunno, 3-4 years ago? I remember around a year ago he was back again as a different merchant with a similar sounding name. I got an alter off him but I forget who he was. And yeah he could have had other merchant bodies, but if so, they weren't roleplayed as well as him.


The following matches your criteria and are considered out of genre:

light saber
light-saber
lightning saber

Oh and just so you guys know, the light saber isn't called "a light sabre". It's a light sabre in it's scripts and special things it can do. However, in Plat someone altered a sabre into something to be "a light-weight sabre" and then took off one of the words to make it more like a light sabre or something like that. And then as for the lightning sabre.. I remember back on one of the old Juggernauts where they sold lightning weapons. I used to have "a lightning broadsword".. was like 0x with lightning flares, heh.

I just mainly brought that up because the three examples you listed sparked a few different memories that all fit, heh.

Oh, and sorry all for the damned long post, lol.

- N

[Adhara]

Excellent post.

[Kurili]

I remember about 4yrs or so ago, Dahlgrim came unannounced to Helga's very late at night. And only worked for people there. He RPd the entire time, it was wonderful.

Dee

[Methais]

<<Some items just slip through QC.>>

That's an understatement. Did anyone catch the HUGE error in the observatory in EN when it opened? I don't remember the exact wording but when you peered into the telescope, the description mentioned something about Kulthea (ICE age Elanthia).

This wasn't something that was overlooked during the conversion from the ICE age, since this was with the opening of EN, a brand new area that opened in what, 2001?

How that one managed ot slip by QC I'll never know.