To all those who bought tickets to Rozak's raffle

[GSTamral]

I truly feel for you, but I can't say you didnt have enough warning. He's been a liar and a scammer for years, especially when he can get away with the big stuff.

What raffle?

[Artha]

Rozak was holding a raffle, tickets were 4 million a piece. He said there were all sorts of high end items...and I'm guessing there weren't (or they went to friends of his).

[Kitsun]

Did any new news surface? Haven't heard anything in like a week or more. Basically most people got craaaaaaaap.

[FinisWolf]

At a lousy 4 million silvers, what did you expect? Uber stuff? Come on.

Sucks those that got a ticket got burnt, not arguing that, hmm..., not even arguing, just don't expect to get rockin` items for a measly 4 million. Ask Ardwen, thats chump change..., even if it is half as much as I have in the bank.

Finiswolf

[longshot]

At 15 dollars per million, that is $60 US dollars.

If someone took $60 dollars from you in real life, you wouldn't be pissed off?

Maybe $60 dollars isn't a lot to you personally, but the fact that someone stole it... I hate theives.

[Galleazzo]

Anyone who enters a non-GM raffle in GS is a tool and a fool. At least in a real auction you know what you're bidding for and you can demand bonafides.

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Anyone who enters a non-GM raffle in GS is a tool and a fool. At least in a real auction you know what you're bidding for and you can demand bonafides.

I entered it... then again, it was only 4 million.

I got some SWEET 5x leathers for it.. I can easily recoup my silver... all I need is someone who thinks 6x double leathers are worth 4 million. :smilegrin:

[Wezas]

For info on the scam, check Icypoison's posts. He seems to be Rozak

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Wezas
For info on the scam, check Icypoison's posts. He seems to be Rozak

Is he? I thought it was 2 different scams.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Lets form a lynch mob and hang someone!

Oh wait, I got a good item, nevermind!

[Parkbandit]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Lets form a lynch mob and hang someone!

Oh wait, I got a good item, nevermind!

Fucker.

To be honest.. I'm a little irritated if it is found that only his 'friends' got the 10x cloak and the other high end items and it really was all a scam.

[Wezas]

Originally posted by Parkbandit

Originally posted by Wezas
For info on the scam, check Icypoison's posts. He seems to be Rozak

Is he? I thought it was 2 different scams.

Doh, you're right, that was Diesel's 200k per ticket raffle.

So many scammers, I get confused.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Parkbandit
Fucker.

To be honest.. I'm a little irritated if it is found that only his 'friends' got the 10x cloak and the other high end items and it really was all a scam.

Dude, the only person saying that is Tamral, repeatedly. I tend not to believe the conspiracies until I have something a little more concrete than suspicion.

BTW, my item was probably valued at or more than 4m, and I gave it away. So I guess I should be angry and accuse the raffler of a scam?

[Edaarin]

YOU KNOW ARDWEN WHO KNOWS ROZAK, CONSPIRACY AMOCK

That said, Tsin did run the whole thing. Didn't people say to proceed with due caution?

[Blazing247]

As much as I don't get along with Tamral, he is actually correct for once. It's not my place to go into details, so I'll leave it at that.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I guess I could ask something like "WHY THE FUCK DID YOU POST ANYTHING THEN?" but its not my place to do so.

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Blazing247
As much as I don't get along with Tamral, he is actually correct for once. It's not my place to go into details, so I'll leave it at that.

Normally, I would agree with you. However, if you have unequivocal proof that this was a scam, those people who were taken advantage of have a right to know, in my opinion.

As long as people can scam others and get away with it, this kind of thing will continue to occur. It is through solid proof of dishonesty coming into the hands of those who have been wronged that such behaviors will come to a halt.

HarmNone

[Varsus]

Yup, That Sucks.

-Varsus

[Blazing247]

I guess I could ask something like "WHY THE FUCK DID YOU POST ANYTHING THEN?" but its not my place to do so.

--------

I guess I could tell you to go fuck yourself and... yeah I just did. I wasn't dumb enough to buy a ticket = I don't give a fuck enough to get into the details. My not being verbose on the matter does not invalidate the truth. Tamral is correct (I'll never utter those words again), and that's what matters.

[Blazing247]

And Harm, while I wish it were that easy, it simply isn't. Advice for the dumbasses of the universe...rich people don't get more rich by giving shit away for cheap. Duh.

[Solkern]

ouch...

[HarmNone]

Originally posted by Blazing247
And Harm, while I wish it were that easy, it simply isn't. Advice for the dumbasses of the universe...rich people don't get more rich by giving shit away for cheap. Duh.

You are right, Blazing. Rich people do not get rich by giving things away cheaply. However, there are probably many people who bought tickets for this raffle (at 4 million a pop - to many, that AIN'T cheap!) who were expecting an honest raffle.

Personally, as soon as I heard that Tsin was involved, I would have dismissed the whole thing as a scam. Yet, there are a lot of players these days who have never heard of Tsin. Those are the people I feel for. :)

Whether you wish to tell what you know, or not, is your business. I would not judge you right or wrong, whatever you do. I was just pointing out what seemed right to me, personally.

HarmNone would like to see all these scammers stopped

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I heard Blazing247 was really Klaive and Warclaidhm's love child. I don't give a fuck enough to get into the details, but just trust me on this, an asshole like that doesn't become such an asshole by dropping accusations without anything factual.

This game of being vague is fun! Lets play more, Deepthroat.

Grow some stones and step up to the plate, or just don't fucking post. Or, I guess you can hide behind your anonymous login some more and drop more (apparent) baseless accusations.

[Varsus]

Hey! Whats wrong with anonymous login?

Nobudy Knows Who I Play...

-Varsus (er ops!)

[MPSorc]

All i can say is im glad im a coin miser, rather poor one, which i guess i suck at it cause i don't have a lot and couldn't have bought a ticket if i wanted one.

[Wanderer]

Ya know I wouldnt waste my breath talking to Tsin. I remember 4 years ago when I really played He was a liar and a thief and apparently he still is. WTG.

[GSTamral]

Suppa Hobbit Mage, you seem to love to pay special attention to every post on the raffle to "assure" everyone that it was legit, as though you telling us an item you gave away which was worth more than 4M serves as proof of validity.

You seem extremely concerned to dispel any rumors and disbelievers with a ferver that almost implies that you might have something to lose if this was a scam. Hrmmmm.

[Solkern]

Heh, Tamral, I was kinda thinking the same thing, It just seemed SHM got extremtly defensive when scam was brought up into the raffle, which usually means "hiding something"
But who knows.

[GSTamral]

Who knows is right. Only the auctioneers know for sure, the rest of us just have our hunches. More than one GM I talked to before the raffle had reservations as to anything Tsin/Rozak was involved in, and while I won't name names, I will also say that neither of them provided me with any proof it was a scam either.

But what strikes me as odd is the absolute fervor to which SHM is paying special attention to with posting denials to anything calling the raffle a scam, to the point of absolute offensive behavoir to anyone who believes it was. It's akin to a company hiring people for PR in times of crisis. Maybe SHM doesn't want yet another black mark on Jakarta, maybe its like Gzinta's raffles, where certain people, such as Porcell, were quite literally paid to spread word that the auction was legit.

But for a who knows situation, taking personal offense to calling people Deepthroaters and such, it just sparks the interest. I do believe SHM and Ardwen know an awful lot more than they let on.

I did finally see a listing of the items in the auction, originally from Rozak himself, and what I find odd is that of those items in the list, [which appears to have been created after the wheel was already spun (which means there is no proof it existed before the spinning, so the numbers could have been made up afterwards to assure the right people won)], is that not a single one of those items is up for sale.

[GSTamral]

oh, and while I'm at it, I'd like to point out SHM is a liar.

Directly from him, according to him, he won a:

I got a crimson streaked laen waraxe that was damage weighted (2 hander). I gave it to Rhys since he'll put it to use.



Here is the item list directly from Rozak (schooldamn@aol.com)

Raffle Items

1. a full suit of invar platemail etched with ancient dwarven runes 2.
a vaalin-edged gold-linked hauberk etched with a golden pegasus on the
shoulder
3. some black battle leathers
4. a set of hooded black leather armor with an emerald serpent tooled on the
left breast
5. some deep black rolaren scalemail
6. some darkly stained double leather
7.an ithloss helm
8.some shimmering serpent-scaled armor
9. some double leather
10.some smoky grey leathers
11.some deep purple battle leathers
12. a soot-covered krodera shield
13.a shadowy black shield emblazoned with the faded crest of House Jakarta
14. a shimmering vultite longsword
15.a razor sharp skull-pommelled claidhmore
16. a heavily-spiked grey vultite mace
17.an enruned ancient eonake mace
18.an ivory-hilted violet eog rapier
19.a vultite skull-pommelled badelaire
20.a vultite skull-pommelled badelaire
21.a deep violet iorake morning star
22.a razor sharp skull-pommelled claidhmore
23.an enruned ancient eonake mace
24.an enruned ancient eonake mace
25.a vultite skull-pommelled badelaire
26.a vultite skull-pommelled badelaire
27.a razor sharp skull-pommelled claidhmore
28.a silver-edged black rolaren backsword
29.a bone-pommeled elven longsword
30.a silver-bound long bow
31.a massive battle-scarred claidhmore with a razor-sharp blade
32.a streaked red laen battle axe
33.a translucent vultite-alloy quarterstaff
34.a sapphire-set rolaren warblade
35.an enruned ancient eonake mace
36.a dark invar dwarven-forged claidhmore
37.a dark invar dwarven-forged claidhmore
38.a runed laen hunting knife
39. a diamond-edged slender eahnor longsword etched along the blade with
ancient Illistim runes
40. a cold steel rod
41.some Akbutege leaf
42.a black eog Inis symbol
43.some purple Jakarta death drink
44.a small glowing vial
45.a snifter of Misty Purple Liquid
46.some purple Jakarta death drink
47.some purple Jakarta death drink
48.some Edram Moss
49.some Arnuminas Leaf
50.some Arnuminas Leaf
51.a silver Z'taar symbol
52.a glaes spider charm
53.some purple Jakarta death drink
54.some purple Jakarta death drink
55.some purple Jakarta death drink
56.some purple Jakarta death drink
57.some purple Jakarta death drink
58.a glowing amulet
59.a ruby inset golden shaalk clasp
60.some Edram Moss
61.a shaalk Akaltan amulet
62.a small glass orb
63.a deep purple kiskaa raax talisman
64. a copper-studded wineskin
65.a faded black pouch
66.a crimson crystal-inset ring
67.a soft white spidersilk cloak edged with golden silk trim
68.a pearl-inlaid golden shaalk lockpick
69.a butterfly charm
70.a mithril juggernaut pin
71.a silver Brigatta pin
72.a shadowy black wolf hide sheath clasped with a tiny emerald serpent
73.some crested black snakeskin boots
74. a mithril-edged bone key
75.a rune-incised dark vaalin lockpick
76.a deep black spidersilk backpack
77.a heavy hooked carving knife
78.an ivory-inlaid jeweled scriber
79.a faded leather bracer
80. Reinforced Weapons Harness
81. Razor Sharp Fangs
82. Ruby Amulet
83. Ruby Amulet
84. Vaalin Lockpick
85. Black Stiletto
86. a shimmering orb
87. an elven cloak
88. some double leather
89. a dark wolf talisman
90. Iorake Claidhmore
91. forest green brigadine
92. black platemail
93. fish spine sword
94. shadowy gray gauntlets
95. krodera shield
96. black tower shield
97. laen lockpick
98. fiery red polearm
99. sylvan recurve bow
100. runestaff (its 6x)


There is not a single waraxe on this list. The only crimson item is a ring.

I think I personally can now confirm SHM has something to lose and a vested interest in this to have so fortuitously lied about the item he received.

[Solkern]

None are?

now that is really odd.

If i joined that raffle, and it was legit, the item I won would be up for sale the same or next day.

Because I doubt everyone that won anything if it was legeit...could use the item, or it was JUST what they needed, that never happens.

With that what you just said tamral, it leads me more to believe it was a scam.

Becuase i've seen some legit very HIGH end raffles, I've been in quite a few

And after every single one, I've seen more then 75% of the high end items won, go up for sale the same or next day...

[Solkern]

I missed that item listing tamral, with that right there, it proves enough that the raffel was a scam.

Excellant job I must say.

[GSTamral]

Either way I'll continue to get proof. Having tracked down 6 contest entrants, so far 4 of them received items on this list, and 2 are claiming that the items they received were not on the list. And then we have SHM too.

[Edited on 4-11-2004 by GSTamral]

[Solkern]

Please do keep us informed, This is getting more intresting after every post you make.

If you can, try to find out what happened to the "high end items"

If they really exisit or just written down and made up.

Thanks tamral.

[Pallon]

Most of that stuff looks like total shit

[HarmNone]

Ummm...he might have meant this here 'un:

32.a streaked red laen battle axe

HarmNone, not liking to make negative assumptions :)

[Solkern]

He ment this item? not the one he mentioned? hmmm...No i don't think it works that way, he gave an exact description of the item he won, and it wasn't the one listed, doesn't workt hat way harm :moon:

[GSTamral]

Harmnone, with 100 items to choose from, one could technically say just about anything the first time around, and relate it to something on the list. This isn't a single word missing or changed, Or a slight misnomer. Wrong weapon type, wrong color, wrong ordering of words.

Ardwen has just shown me a glance of Rhys's locker, which contains item number 32, the streaked red laen battle axe, so I will begrudgingly put it back into the who knows category, because I don't know that it wasnt put there after the fact, or after the list of items was first made. There is still the question of the 2 items others have received that are not on the list, and the issue of none of the high end items being anywhere.

[Solkern]

They trying to cover up there fuck ups!

and they got caught red handed!

[Ardwen]

SOlkern how many items that you held for 5 minutes can you remember the exact names of? I know I 1 coined that axe ages ago not a clue how Rozak got it dont care, I made my 3 million on it when it sold

Ardwen
Former Axe Owner

[Solkern]

if it's a extreme high end item?

I can list my top 5 high end items right now.

easily and I haven't played in 3-4 years

[Solkern]

Shit, i still have them written down on my computer.

I still have a list of every item I use to own.

[GSTamral]

nahhhh, while I believe Ardwen would, in the best interests of his house, sit quiet on information if he knew it would damage Jakarta (then again, most people probably would), I don't think Ardwen would help someone else cover up their mess. He's got some scruples.

[Solkern]

I've only delt with Ardwen a very few times in game, well merchant wise, seen him a few times on the boulder, having some fun, but Ive never known him to give false information or lie about something. which leaves me in a toss up, I know ntohing of his house or the shit that goes down with it, if there is scandle and lying, it's been blowen past me.

[HarmNone]

I just know I have had people describe items to me before that did not turn out to be exactly as they described. They were sorta close, in most cases, but rarely on target unless they were looking at the item in question. It just occurred to me that item #32 was close enough to be a possibility. Probably best to leave it at "Who knows?" than to brand someone a liar with insufficient information. :)

HarmNone

[Solkern]

See harmNone, I would agree with you on that, but he gave an exact description, with it's ablities (damage weighting)
which tells me that he was holding the item, or knew exactly what it was...
Then you throw in what tamral said, 2 other people got items NOT listed?

hmm seems to be a scandle in the mix.

Then some mysterious axe that was on the list, shows up in a locker...

heh....cute

[Ardwen]

Some scruples? gee thanks with friends like Tamral who needs enemies heh. In general I'm honest to the point of brutality in my business dealings, its why people trust me, its why other people ask me do do their business dealings, be they Ciston, Ohr, Blades or dozens of others.

I bought 4 tickets to the raffle won prizes I surely didnt want to win, yep love that death drink. but its a risk much like any other if you cant afford to gamble away the coins then dont buy a ticket. if ya have a ticket and complain do so, if your an uninvolved bystander, gotta question why your involved at all.


Ardwen
Waster of Millions

[Solkern]

Yeah, that is one thing I have noticed about ardwen, He is trust worthy, Many people including myself have asked him for help, on info about an item, worth, and so on and so and so on....and he's always been helpful and on target.

[HarmNone]

Heh. I have said before, Solkern, that knowing Tsin was involved was all it would have taken for me to say "Thanks, but no thanks!" to this particular raffle. However, I still think it is important not to jump to conclusions, based on insufficient evidence, and call somebody a liar. Things like that inevitably come back to bite one in the ass. ;)

HarmNone, just goin' for a little justice in an unjust world :cackle:

[Solkern]

LOL, nice harm

I understand what youa re saying, and I totally respect every word of it, but when the evidence is so overwhelming it makes ones thoughts on the subject steer the other way.

Ardwen sux.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Suppa Hobbit Mage, you seem to love to pay special attention to every post on the raffle to "assure" everyone that it was legit, as though you telling us an item you gave away which was worth more than 4M serves as proof of validity.

You seem extremely concerned to dispel any rumors and disbelievers with a ferver that almost implies that you might have something to lose if this was a scam. Hrmmmm.

Tamral, you conspiracy theorist fuck, I'm not defending the raffle, I'm calling out your (and blazing247's "concrete") stupid baseless accusations.

If I have "something to lose", as your latest conspiracy theory believes, what is it?

Lets talk about some of your locker duped items, if you want to throw out baseless accusations. I mean, you had a strength hand axe that was duplicated, so clearly you duplicated it, right? I went from one "fact" (it was duped), to a second "fact" (you have it), so clearly you are guilty.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by GSTamral
oh, and while I'm at it, I'd like to point out SHM is a liar.

Directly from him, according to him, he won a:

I got a crimson streaked laen waraxe that was damage weighted (2 hander). I gave it to Rhys since he'll put it to use.



Here is the item list directly from Rozak (schooldamn@aol.com)

32.a streaked red laen battle axe

There is not a single waraxe on this list. The only crimson item is a ring.

I think I personally can now confirm SHM has something to lose and a vested interest in this to have so fortuitously lied about the item he received.

I was at work when I posted it (I don't log into the game at work), and I had it for probably, 5 minutes, before I gave it to Rhys. Ask Rhys if I didn't give it to him, since you seem to imply I got something from the raffle other than that axe.

You stupid, retarded, conspiracy theorist fuck.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by Solkern
He ment this item? not the one he mentioned? hmmm...No i don't think it works that way, he gave an exact description of the item he won, and it wasn't the one listed, doesn't workt hat way harm :moon:

How retarded are you?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Originally posted by GSTamral
Harmnone, with 100 items to choose from, one could technically say just about anything the first time around, and relate it to something on the list. This isn't a single word missing or changed, Or a slight misnomer. Wrong weapon type, wrong color, wrong ordering of words.

Ardwen has just shown me a glance of Rhys's locker, which contains item number 32, the streaked red laen battle axe, so I will begrudgingly put it back into the who knows category, because I don't know that it wasnt put there after the fact, or after the list of items was first made. There is still the question of the 2 items others have received that are not on the list, and the issue of none of the high end items being anywhere.

Gee, look at that. I guess it WAS on the list wasn't it? Unless of course you are going to start saying Rhys was in on your conspiracy now, right?

Legit auction or not, I don't know. I got an laen axe out of it, it was a measly 4m a ticket. Sorry if your "axe" to grind on Rozak was sold. Now run along and count your illegal duped items, hypocrit.

[Myshel]

I know Ardwen has taken the high road on this auction, but he has millions to waste. Considering I was naggin' his butt every step of the way, cause I didn't like the auction or the way it was handled.

[GSTamral]

<<<
Tamral, you conspiracy theorist fuck, I'm not defending the raffle, I'm calling out your (and blazing247's "concrete" stupid baseless accusations.
>>>

This despite the fact that you have no "concrete" proof otherwise, and I've never stated to have concrete proof, just enough circumstancial proof to know better.

Given your attitude, you've done nothing to show you'll do anything other than sit there, swear, and call people all kinds of names who think the raffle was a scam. Let me tell you why people think it was a scam.

1) No list of items was put out before the raffle was conducted. There was no way to know what was in it.
2) The list of items was compiled AFTER the raffle was completed.
3) None of the major items from the raffle have gone back up for resale, and in fact, nobody has even stepped forward to know who won them.
4) 3 of 11 people now who were in the raffle have said the prize they won to me, and produced the item as well (and I'll give SHM the benefit of the doubt to not say 4), which was not on the list.

SHM, you're the one sitting here calling names. Do you have any concrete proof saying it wasn't a scam? DO you know the whereabouts or even the winner names on any of the big ticket items?

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

How many people were forced to buy tickets?

There's your proof it wasn't a scam.

[GSTamral]

And SHM, you are correct, the strength handaxe I own does have an illegal dupe, albeit I never owned it. I am not sure if it was duped by the previous owner (artiminus), the one before that (ciston/wadsworth) or the one before that. Maybe your friends might know. Most of the items that were duped in the past were done so, so they can be sold for cash. Being it I'm not around that crowd, this might be another case that you seem to know more about the history that you care to tell for the purpose of putting an argument in a specific light.

[GSTamral]

How is that proof? Has anyone even seen the list of the 100 ticket buyers? I've lost count of how many people have run 100 person raffles with a couple of decent items only to sell 90 tickets and provide results to show one of the 10 missing ticket numbers won a big one. Is that the case here? I don't know, but I suspect foulplay. That nobody was forced to buy tickets is proof it wasn't a scam?

That's about as intelligent as saying the people who worked for Enron were not forced to buy Enron stock for their retirement funds, so therefore, nothing illegal was done.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

How many tickets did you buy Tamral? I mean you really must be a man of the people, to come here and raise such a fuss over something like this, if you didn't purchase a ticket. I mean, your altruism aside, why do you care? Only because you hate Rozak?

Actually, I don't know Ciston, Wadsworth or Artimus (and to be very honest, I only know Rozak through Ardwen -- have spoken to him exactly 4 times). I just know you have a duped strength axe. Cast ye not the first stone, and all that, right Tamral?

As far as was it a scam, your right, saying no one was coherced or forced to buy tickets is weak, and I'll give you that. I will say this, there's no way to figure out if it was scam or not. Hell, Simu has raffles all the time and they get accused of scams. Spinners are accused of spams. The only reason people buy tickets is the thought of getting something very nice for nothing. I honestly expect to win a crystal amulet or something. Don't question my integrity, simply because I purchased a ticket, got an item, and mispoke EXACTLY what it was.

So we are both agreed that there really isn't a way to determine concretely, that this was or was not a scam, right?

[Kitsun]

As far as I can tell, Tamral is doing what he can to prove one way or another if its a scam...he's collecting the names and items people won and comparing it to the list that was released. Although it is difficult, if he manages to dig everyone up I'm sure he'll be able to comment on the legitimacy.

The difference between Simutronics raffles being accused and other players is simpy: Simu does not BENEFIT from rigging those things. A scam by a player will benefit the player.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ok, carry on then. Enjoy your witch hunt. I had a laen axe Tamral, exact description can be gotten from Rhys. I only purchased one ticket though, so there you go.

[Methais]

I won an ithloss helm. w00t!

As far as i can tell, Tamral is being an ass as usual. Just because the 3 people you know who bought tickets feel a little gipped doesn't mean it was rigged. Nor is the fact that you haven't seen anything go up for sale. That could be explained for several reasons: People want to verify the items or get a good idea of its fair market value before selling, people want to use the item or they just don't want to sell it just yet.

[GSTamral]

RangerD1, are you still upset because I don't think street gangs are angelic future heaven goers? If that makes me some sort of ass in your mind then fine. As for you talking conspiracy theories, we can always go back into your theories that all street gangs worldwide are run by some organization that tells them not to do things to innocent people.

[Edited on 4-11-2004 by GSTamral]

Uh, yea. Whatever you say buddy. The above is a perfect example as to why your an ass.

[GSTamral]

I don't recall ever addressing you in any post over the last few months. You're the one starting the name calling. SO I guess you are still upset that I dont believe that some master organization is running street gangs telling them not to hurt innocent people. Ah well.

First of all Tamral, I don't know what the fuck your talking about in regards to an "Master organization".

Second of all, I called you an ass because you are acting like one, here and now. This has absolutely nothing to do with anything that me and you have talked about in the past. In fact, i have very little desire to delve into that senseless debate with you now or anytime soon. If you want to talk about how Rozak supposedly rigged a raffle by all means, but lets stick to the topic.

[GSTamral]

RangerD1, I am talking about a discussion I had with you regarding how a person I knew was robbed and maimed by a street gang, and you telling me that street gangs do not involve themselves in that type of behavoir because they are not allowed to. Asking you who doesn't allow them to, you alluded to some above affiliation that apparently has a say in the ongoings of said street gangs, and makes sure they don't hurt innocent people. I laughed at the statement, at which time you began talking about how street gangs gave your mother money to pay for rent.

Does that freshen your memory? If you want to bring past enmity and make comments based off of past experiences and feelings towards me, don't be surprised if I do the same. You think I am an ass, and I think you are an uneducated inner city thug who isnt going anywhere in life other than perhaps a career as an NCO. But I'm not going to go out of my way to bring it up in every conversation I get into unless you feel the need to start it first.

[Edited on 4-11-2004 by GSTamral]

[Edaarin]

Start a new thread if you're going to discuss the merits of gangs.

[GSTamral]

I have no desire to go back into that argument, I was just making a point.

I remember the conversation quite well Tamral. I never said it didn't happen, i said it didn't happen in the way you protrayed the events and stated several reaons why. However, that does not coincide with what you were saying 2 posts ago, but whatever. I'm not really gonna bother.

As for me being uneducated and not going anywhere besides as an NCO: Sure thing buddy ;)

[Edaarin]

The point is, unless you can post proof that it's a scam, people are going to remain skeptical. Maybe you have proof, maybe Blazing has proof, but until it's solidly posted here, it's just unfounded accusations at this point.

For the record, there are very few circumstances under which I would have any dealings with Tsin. This certainly did not fall in that category, and if you bought something without guarantees from him, that's just silly.

[Varsus]

What I see is Tamral trying to get the info to prove if it is or not.

I honestly think it was a scam, if it was not, then it would be very easy to prove right? just ask the person who ran it to give a list out.

Since I have not seen one, and I know atleast 10 people who bought tickets and "say" they got jacked, well I think they want to see a list to.

I see no reason why it is unfair to ask for a list, it seems thats all everyone wants.

-Varsus

[HarmNone]

Tamral posted the list of the items on page two of this thread, Varsus, unless you mean a list of who won what. :)

HarmNone

[GSTamral]

I personally strongly believe it was a scam, but I'm going to try and collect as much proof as I can to show either way. So far, everything to this point is circumstancial, but everything points to a scam.

It was originally advertised as nothing under 1M, but that was actually Tsin who advertised it, and as we all know, what Tsin says doesnt hold much weight here. A couple people got ruby amulets, methais is saying an ithloss helm, SHM is claiming the laen battle axe. All in all, 14 total people have shown me the item they won. 11 of those items appear on this list. 3 of them have not.

None of the big name items have gone back up for sale, but as SHM said, that can explained by other reasons as well, just odd that EVERY single one of the big ticket items has been kept in quiet.

Nobody yet even knows who won ANY of the big ticket items, and since many of the ticket buyers play on a regular basis, that seems rather odd as well.

The list and numbering of the items themselves was compiled after the original drawing, which COULD mean that it was made after the numbers were already assigned to people. This list was made to specifically NOT be sent out before the drawing. As with Ardwen and that axe, is someone is willing to show some proof that it was not a scam, by all means. But when the strongest proof out there is that nobody was forced to buy a ticket, that just isnt going to cut it for me, or for most people.

[Varsus]

Ya a list of who got what I should say.

-Varsus

[HarmNone]

I have no stake in this at all, but it is possible that the items that were not shown on the list were put in to replace things like the bloody moss! That would be a good thing, if that is the explanation.

Another question comes to mind. How do we know the list was not compiled until after the drawing? I am just curious.

HarmNone

[Varsus]

We Don't

The fact that the list was not posted till after the raffle, makes it a scam in my book.

Honestly Its just a "trust me" issue since it was not listed.

I don't trust anyone.

-Varsus

[HarmNone]

Okay. So, as I now understand it, we do not know if the list was compiled before the raffle and not released until after the raffle. I hope I have that right...

HarmNone

[Bobmuhthol]

ROZAK NO SCAMMER

YOU SUCK

Originally posted by HarmNone
I have no stake in this at all, but it is possible that the items that were not shown on the list were put in to replace things like the bloody moss! That would be a good thing, if that is the explanation.

HarmNone

Whatever, it is so obvious you are Rozak. Seriously, though, it probably was a scam. What idiot gives money to Tsin, no matter how legit things appear?

On the other side of the coin, Tamral loves to throw out baseless accusations, or to make staggering leaps of logic to support his "facts" and "proof".

It would take an idiot to buy a raffle ticket from Tsin, and it would take an idiot to buy a conspiracy theory from Tamral.

[Makkah]

<<It would take an idiot to buy a raffle ticket from Tsin, and it would take an idiot to buy a conspiracy theory from Tamral.>>

ROFL... JUKEd


rht

PS: I heard Starsnuffer won some good stuff.

[Askip]

<< Whatever, it is so obvious you are Rozak >>

HarmNone is Rozak? T&S, buy a clue.

:D

Originally posted by Askip
<< Whatever, it is so obvious you are Rozak >>

HarmNone is Rozak? T&S, buy a clue.

:D

Whatever, Tsin. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was joking since my very next sentence started, "Seriously though..." and since I quoted Harmnone saying "I have no stake in this" or something to that effect.

I was poking fun at Tamral's tendency to accuse anyone that disagrees with him of being in collusion, or part of the conspiracy. I guess it's easy for some folks to get stuck on one sentence instead of comprehending a big paragraph.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Ah hahahahah, You got served Askip.

[Ambrosia]

I just read that list, and wow. For the statement being 'nothing worth under a mil' there sure are a lot of cheap items on that list.

[Sirinna]

How I see it, the way the raffle was advertised and the way the items are handed out, and the timing of the release of the list... It is hard for me to accept that this is a 100% legit event.

By the way, I got the laen hunting knife and a crappy leather which is on the list Tamral listed.

Siri

[Askip]

<< stuck on one sentence instead of comprehending a big paragraph >>

No fair, now you are using four syllable words too. :D

clueless Askip

[Askip]

<< You got served >>

and pwnd, but rightfully so. :D

[OoK]

Quote from Tamral a few pages back: "maybe its like Gzinta's raffles, where certain people, such as Porcell, were quite literally paid to spread word that the auction was legit."

Porcell getting paid to spread word on auctions? Porcell hasn't even been around in months, and I've never known him to participate in anything resembling a scam.

-OoK

Here we go again...

[ElanthianSiren]

Having never dealt with Tsin personally, I have to abstain from expousing an opinion here about the legitimacy of HIS particular raffle; however, I don't enter player run raffles because I see them like the mystery box game.


If the list was created after the fact, it would make sense that some people, who are well known for merchanting, would spread the word of their great fortune through Tsin's raffle. If it was legitimate, there are still going to be folks who bid and were dissatisfied with their result. It is how it always works.

Does that make the people who received the good items bad people? No. To reject an item you already paid 4 million for would be looking a gift horse in the mouth, something very few of us would do, so that entire point is somewhat moot.

If the auction was illegitimate, I would guess only a tiny amount of people would have known for sure, and if the raffle wasn't so squeaky clean, we can be sure the people who knew were those closest to the original auctioner. So...the buck stops there as well. If the auction was ran cleanly, obviously there would be nothing to talk about, so the buck stops there too.

One reason things might not be getting sold right now too is that the market just plain sucks. You have a bunch of people downgrading slots/selling items, which is pulling the value of items down. You would have to be sort of crazy to try to sell something like a laen battle axe right now.

That aside, I would never doubt Ardwen at his word, so I believe that he and others got something nice for the money that they invested. Yet, I also don't doubt Tamral at his word. The truth is most likely somewhere in between and something we won't ever know in its entirety.


-Melissa

[Bobmuhthol]

<<Porcell hasn't even been around in months,>>

Neither has Gzinta. Who said it was recent?

[Skirmisher]

I saw Porcell's name on a stat full the other night.

[Makkah]

DOUBLE JUKE

[Varsus]

hey, I got good shit from gzinta back in the day.

(but back then anything over 400k was 'good shit' to me)

-Varsus