The write up: Fair or unfair?

[Caiylania]

Ok, I'm stumped at this reaction to a write up so I thought I would ask the collective intelligence that is the PC. Smart, right? o.O

Here is the situation. Every month we have a meeting on the same first day of the month at the same time. It is mandatory for the entire staff to attend. At each meeting there is a sheet to sign in on and the notes state the date and time of the next meeting just in case. That means they all have a month's notice.

This meeting was on July 5th at 1pm. 3 people were over 20 minutes late and one did not attend at all.

They were all written up. I was not mad at them on a personal level but they all understood they were supposed to be there. One is fighting it and calling me unfair. She states that since it was a Holiday weekend and she had Monday off she should have been exempt from the meeting and not gotten in trouble since she did make it, but just late.

She had requested the day off but it was not a vacation day and it has always been required that you must attend all mandatory meetings unless on an official vacation. She told her supervisor a week ago that she would be out of town. 3 weeks after the meeting was scheduled.

I told her I was not mad at her but that I stated at the last meeting it would be an automatic write up for anyone who was late at the next meeting or did not show up. The ironic part is at the beginning of each meeting I announce the Employees of the Month and give out certificates for that and for people who made yearly anniversaries. She got both EotM and her 1 year pin. Yet she wasn't there to receive either due to being late.

She is threatening to quit over it and I basically said so be it. Overall she is a really good employee but she is not perfect and I don't feel she has the right to threaten me at all, let alone over something that was her choice.

So here is the poll. Let's hear it.

[Drew]

LOL, in this economy you hold all the cards. There are tons of qualified people who will want her job.

[TheEschaton]

This isn't a poll.

[Caiylania]

It apparently posts the post before the poll is done.

[TheEschaton]

Before voting, what was the policy of her having the day off without it being official vacation? Is she allowed to do that? Was it clear that her obligations still exist on this unofficial day off?

[Caiylania]

Before voting, what was the policy of her having the day off without it being official vacation? Is she allowed to do that? Was it clear that her obligations still exist on this unofficial day off?

If you are on official vacation time you cannot be called in or required to attend meetings. On a normal day off you can be called in and must still attend meetings. She requested the day off but it was still just a normal day off. Just basically picked which ones she had off. At the time of the request, she already knew about the meeting time and date.

[Stunseed]

There's 100 mexicans who will take 70% of what you're paying that one. Hell, I'd take a decent paying job.

She's quitting so you are covered unemployement wise, as well.

[Celephais]

I don't think the meeting should have been scheduled for when it was, but seeing as how that is when it was scheduled, she should have specifically mentioned that she wasn't going to be able to make it to the meeting if she wasn't able to, and been given leniency in that case, but it sounds like everything was done by the books, and she was given notice and notice that tardiness would equal a write up.

[Nieninque]

If she was being paid for the day and was expected to be at work she does as she is told.
Although I'm confused about the difference between a day off and vacation day. Was she supposed to be there? If so, suck it up. If not, then why the fuck was she there anyway?

[TheEschaton]

Yeah, I've never heard of a day of that doesn't somehow count as a vacation day, unless it's a sick day.

[Archigeek]

If she's a good enough employee to be given two awards, why are you doing this? It just seems dumb to schedule a meeting for that time. Considering she did speak to her supervisor a week in advance about getting the day off, it seems to me you should write up the supervisor for not getting that dealt with in a week.

Sure there are a lot of people out there who would take her job in this economy, but the picture it sends not just to her but to ALL of your employees when you give someone two awards and write them up is that you're the one with the issues. You should have scheduled the meeting for a different day in light of the holiday, and then you wouldn't be in the quandry of having to decide between punish one of your better employees, or going back on your word about the write ups.

I think you're being a hardass for the sake of being a hardass, and that's always an endearing trait for a boss.

[WRoss]

This must be a union job.

[Caiylania]

It was a regular day off that she was allowed to pick. It was not a vacation day. She just happened to be one of the people off on that day. It is a hotel so weekends are rotated. There is always someone working and always someone off. If we don't require people to attend meetings on their days off then a lot of people would not be there and what would be the point?

She already knew she had to attend the meeting when she asked to have that day off knowing she still had to attend.

[Stunseed]

< Every month we have a meeting on the same first day of the month at the same time. It is mandatory for the entire staff to attend. At each meeting there is a sheet to sign in on and the notes state the date and time of the next meeting just in case. That means they all have a month's notice. >

I don't get how you ( directed towards Kerl ) overlook this in general. These people are getting PAID to do a job, boo-fucking-hoo at the evil empire who expects someone to show up the day after a holiday.

I didn't get the fourth off, let alone the fifth and I'm just happy I get to have the right to upkeep for my family and not live in a cardboard box. The entire concept of "people deserve this, or that" is getting borderline nuts. If it meant that much to the employee, she should have used vacation time ( and be happy they have vacation time ).

[Caiylania]

If she's a good enough employee to be given two awards, why are you doing this? It just seems dumb to schedule a meeting for that time. Considering she did speak to her supervisor a week in advance about getting the day off, it seems to me you should write up the supervisor for not getting that dealt with in a week.

It is mandatory meeting that was scheduled prior to her request.


Sure there are a lot of people out there who would take her job in this economy, but the picture it sends not just to her but to ALL of your employees when you give someone two awards and write them up is that you're the one with the issues.

It says that just because you did a great job up until now that doesn't make you bulletproof.


You should have scheduled the meeting for a different day in light of the holiday, and then you wouldn't be in the quandry of having to decide between punish one of your better employees, or going back on your word about the write ups.

Sunday and Mondays are our slowest days. The meeting delt with things that needed to be addressed. If I had slotted it later in the week housekeeping would have been working until late at night to make up for time spent in the meeting. It couldn't be the week after that because as I said, the issues needed to be addressed. I didn't like it either and also would have liked to go out of town or stay up ridiculously late but I knew I had to be there so I sucked it up.


I think you're being a hardass for the sake of being a hardass, and that's always an endearing trait for a boss.

Honestly, I wish that was true. Often my problem is I give in to easily and people were starting to take that for granted. I gave fair warning and at the end of each meeting there is an open forum. Not one person complained about the date or time for the next meeting.

[Caiylania]

If it meant that much to the employee, she should have used vacation time ( and be happy they have vacation time ).

Paid vacation at that. I totally respect vacation days and never bother an employee who is using them.

We have a request book so that we can try and schedule people so that they still have a life, but it is not guaranteed and it even says that on the schedule that it can change at anytime and they may have to be called in. Everyone wanted the 4th and 5th off. She got both.

So yes, I still expected her to attend the meeting she had known about the entire time. She is a great employee, that doesn't mean the rules do not apply.

[Sharnath]

The meeting was posted a month in advance, everyone knows the rules. Seems a fairly clear cut decision to me. You break the rules you face the consequences. The rules must apply to all employees, both good and bad employees. Were a good employee to be given a pass, that is just ammunition for the bad employee to say that there is favoritism in the workplace, and ammuntion for future litigation should the need arise. I have been faced with issues like this in the past and ended up firing one of my best employees and good friends over a situation such as the one described. Just my two cents.

Sharnath
Weed Mage

[Methais]

I'm kinda with Archigeek on this one...


Considering she did speak to her supervisor a week in advance about getting the day off, it seems to me you should write up the supervisor for not getting that dealt with in a week.

Was she given the impression by the supervisor that him approving her having the 5th off also covered her for the meeting? Or was he like "Ok that's cool, but you still have that meeting."?

If she thought the day off included not going to the meeting, then I'd take it up with her supervisor. If she was just like, "Fuck that it's my day off I'm not going," then yeah write her up.

Or you could throw the write up away and surprise goatse her at the next meeting. That would probably have a more lasting effect.

[sst]

After reading it... I wanna change my vote. =(

She was in the wrong if she wants to quick, push her out the door to help.

[MotleyCrew]

What Stunseed said. Stick to your guns, she quits, oh well. Like many have said, plenty who would love her job.

[Latrinsorm]

I told her I was not mad at her but that I stated at the last meeting it would be an automatic write up for anyone who was late at the next meeting or did not show up.I agree that it would reek of favoritism or just generally be suspicious if you don't follow through with what you said. What are the actual consequences of a write-up where you are?

[Archigeek]

I'm kinda with Archigeek on this one...



Was she given the impression by the supervisor that him approving her having the 5th off also covered her for the meeting? Or was he like "Ok that's cool, but you still have that meeting."?

If she thought the day off included not going to the meeting, then I'd take it up with her supervisor. If she was just like, "Fuck that it's my day off I'm not going," then yeah write her up.

I think we're on the same page, but honestly there's a lot of info missing here. You didn't say from the start what the industry is, and hospitality is a different sort of industry where people are expected to work holidays because hotels are often busy on holidays. And obviously she or the supervisor told you she talked to them, so did you talk to the supervisor or not? And what did they say if you did? If the super said, "I'll see what I can do, but you know we have this mandatory meeting" then stick to the write up. If the super didn't say that, then you're writing up the wrong person.

I work in a different industry where we aren't clock punchers, though we are expected to get our work done, and frequently work long hours to do it. Hospitality is different for sure.

[Drew]

I worked at a job where you had to attend mandatory meetings no matter if you were working or not. That usually meant I had to drag my ass out of bed early Saturday morning and get dressed for work to go sit there for an hour and get yelled at while trying not to look like I'd only slept 2 hours.

But I went.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

1- the meeting should not have been scheduled for July 5th. Whoever did that is a dipshit.

2- if she took the day off and was approved to have the day off, expecting her to come in for that meeting was not okay and writing her up for not coming in was wrong.

If her manager explicitly told her, even if you take the rest of the day off you HAVE to be there on the 5th when she requested the day off, then the write-up is fair.

All that being said, when I worked the food industry I worked all holidays including New Years day. I may have been hungover as shit but my bleary, sick ass was there when service started and had it been not, I'd have been out of a job point blank. My point is that I don't have a lot of sympathy- even if it unfair she should just STFU and deal with it.

[Sean]

Sounds like the 5th was one of her weekend days like a normal saturday or sunday for me. If thats the case sometimes you have to work weekends and if the company policy is even if you have those days off you have to show up for meetings then so be it follow the protocol and tell her to deal with it.

[Kranar]

A lot of people are answering this from the point of view of the employee but I think this is the wrong perspective. Obviously if you're working some really crummy job and you really need the cash you're going to show up to a mandatory meeting to wipe your boss's ass even if it's on Christmas.

Being asked to assess whether it's right or wrong to write this person up, we should not put ourselves in the employee's shoes, what the employee does is not our responsibility and it's not our life. We can only be responsible for our own actions. Is it responsible for a business to schedule an important/mandatory meeting on the Monday after of a national holiday?

I think it is certainly reasonable for a business to expect that its employees may not be too happy about that... unless of course they're all really desperate and need every dollar they can get. But then by writing all your employees up who go against an unreasonable policy, you risk only having people working for your company who are desperate... and that in my opinion isn't something a business should strive for or be happy about.

I'd say given that, the burden really is way way more on the business to justify why it scheduled a mandatory meeting on a day that it could have reasonably expected its employees to have off. As opposed to the burden being on the employee, who took legitimate steps to have the day off, to justify why they didn't show up.

[4a6c1]

(Did not read thread)

Fire her. Hire a grown up.

What is the general ranking of these people that are supposed to be there that were late? Do they have other people under them?

If yes. I suggest you issue phones out to your employees with a 24 access line and/or a conference satellite number for emergency no shows. Thats what I do/did when it was my job to keep people in touch with each other. CDI was my conference contractor....they are great in Houston...not sure where else they work. Anyways they will operate a multi-line dispatch to contact your staff and send a message down a phone tree.

Not sure how others are feeling bout this one but tardiness is something I do not tolerate. If human resources cant hire people who are able to show up on time you need to be involved in the process yourself.

[iJin]

This sounds like a co-worker of mine...


Edit: Oh and my two cents-- Fuck her. Let her quit. A job is a job, she knew about the meeting (Boohoo it was July 5th. So what, many other people had to work July 5th), she needs to GTFO.

[Sylvan Dreams]

It doesn't sound like employees are given a reminder about the meetings outside of the little note. If the meetings are all that important, reminders should be sent - especially if it's for a meeting during a somewhat shitty day for one.

Employees that are on a paid day off, regardless of the type of day off, should be permitted to call in and "attend" over the phone. They can sign the sheet during their next work day or send in an email as a signature.

Edited to add: I don't think the policy is necessarily unfair, but I do think it's shitty. I think more should be done to ensure everyone attends in some way.

[4a6c1]

I don't think the meeting should have been scheduled for when it was....

This is why I am asking for the general ranking of the people and also curious what was the purpose of this meeting.

Depending on their jobs I think the holiday might be irrelevant. If we are talking about peons here...wtf.

Give the peons their glorious red/white/blue days off. Your productivity depends on their general well being.

[iJin]

This is why I am asking for the general ranking of the people and also curious what was the purpose of this meeting.

Depending on their jobs I think the holiday might be irrelevant. If we are talking about peons here...wtf.

Give the peons their glorious red/white/blue days off. Your productivity depends on their general well being.

Say peons again.

[Sylvan Dreams]

Say peons again.

Peonsagain!

[4a6c1]

PEONS.

Also if you were under me I would fire you for blaming retards for being retards after you very obviously forgot to email memos of memos.

Just sayin.

[4a6c1]

I would like to retract my vote and demand an obvious sixth option.

*Your system is fail. Fire her. Fire yourself. Call CDI for your bosses boss.









































(<3 Caiy. You wanted honest answers right? :-X )

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

PEONS.

Also if you were under me I would fire you for blaming retards for being retards after you very obviously forgot to email memos of memos.

Just sayin.

YO DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE RETARDS SO I PUT RETARDS WITH YOUR RETARDS SO YOU HAVE TO SEND MEMOS WHILE SENDING YOUR MEMOS.

I'm glad to see that most of us agree that July 5th is a shit day to have a mandatory all-hands meeting.

[4a6c1]

YO DAWG I HEARD YOU LIKE RETARDS SO I PUT RETARDS WITH YOUR RETARDS SO YOU HAVE TO SEND MEMOS WHILE SENDING YOUR MEMOS.

I'm glad to see that most of us agree that July 5th is a shit day to have a mandatory all-hands meeting.

LOOK SEE HERE DINOBITCH (tm).

I haz some thangs to esplain....

There is a flaw in the leadership if 4 people were late or absent. Communication is key. I recommend Caiy re-revaulate her managerial skills. It sounds as though she can handle this sort of constructive criticism or she would not be asking for opinions.

Do I need a tampon? Maybe. Am I right on matters such as these? Always.

[Kuyuk]

I agree with most of what Methias posted regarding the day off/supervisor discussion.

If she discussed with her supervisor that she would like the day off and would be out of town - it was on her supervisor to inform her that she needed to be present at the meeting before signing off on the day off.

People are accountable for their actions. She was accountable for being there - and she was granted the day off. Whomever granted her the day off needs to be accountable for that as well. [And whomever accepted the day off paperwork should be accountable for letting it slip through without being noticed, if it was really that important]

It's a fine line, but I think that based on the information given, I would reprimand the supervisor, and just have a discussion and document the incident with the employee..........but it sounds like you already had a discussion, and she wants to quit. In which case, you may want to let her. An unhappy employee is a timebomb IMO.

[Latrinsorm]

Is it responsible for a business to schedule an important/mandatory meeting on the Monday after of a national holiday?
I'm glad to see that most of us agree that July 5th is a shit day to have a mandatory all-hands meeting.I don't get this at all. Even when I was working at a school, which I always figured was the industry most extravagant with time off, I can't remember getting holiday + 1 for any holiday. I would prefer if I could roll into work whenever it was convenient for me and my schedule, but that's completely unreasonable for any kind of collaborative endeavor.

[Kuyuk]

The 5th was a bank holiday right?

Therefore everyone should have it off.

[Kranar]

I don't get this at all. Even when I was working at a school, which I always figured was the industry most extravagant with time off, I can't remember getting holiday + 1 for any holiday


Universities most definitely got the Monday off. When July 4th falls on a Saturday, universities take the Friday off, and when it falls on a Sunday they take the Monday off.

Even though the holiday proper is on the weekend, it is said to be 'observed' on the weekday that it's taken off.

[sst]

I agree with most of what Methias posted regarding the day off/supervisor discussion.

If she discussed with her supervisor that she would like the day off and would be out of town - it was on her supervisor to inform her that she needed to be present at the meeting before signing off on the day off.

People are accountable for their actions. She was accountable for being there - and she was granted the day off. Whomever granted her the day off needs to be accountable for that as well. [And whomever accepted the day off paperwork should be accountable for letting it slip through without being noticed, if it was really that important]

It's a fine line, but I think that based on the information given, I would reprimand the supervisor, and just have a discussion and document the incident with the employee..........but it sounds like you already had a discussion, and she wants to quit. In which case, you may want to let her. An unhappy employee is a time bomb IMO.

I think we're missing the fact that its just a normal "day off". Since they are in hospitality they work federal holidays. She just asked that she not be scheduled to work that day, so I would not call it a "day off" per-say. When the company policy is that no matter the day an all hands meeting is an all hands meeting... and she didn't show up, she was at fault.

Its not the supervisors job to remember when everyone has meetings, personal responsibility especially when it comes to your job is key.

[Latrinsorm]

Universities most definitely got the Monday off. When July 4th falls on a Saturday, universities take the Friday off, and when it falls on a Sunday they take the Monday off.

Even though the holiday proper is on the weekend, it is said to be 'observed' on the weekday that it's taken off.Now that I think about it no other national holidays fall on weekends (besides Veterans Day), and we weren't working in the summer so it never came up. (I don't think where I worked observed Veterans Day at all, which in retrospect feels a little off.) It still strikes me as a pretty silly or arbitrary reason to get the 5th off.

[Delias]

If I request a day off, I will not be coming to work, as I apparently have something to do that day that is more important than working. Now sure, maybe she just needed a hangover recovery day, but I really can't say. I find the number one thing your average manager needs to remember is that this is not a military style chain of command... you manage my time, but only when I am at work. When I am not at work, you've got no right to my time. I've missed the last four mandatory meetings at my job... I get away with it by being fucking awesome at my job, and by having the experience to know what needs to get done. If something changes, a note in my mailbox is sufficient.

I also don't do my shift check-lists...because I wrote the god damn thing. Half of the overnight policies we have in place and most of the paperwork were all things I came up with... so I get a lot of leeway. If the employee is awesome enough, it is worth cutting them some slack. I appreciate my lack of regulation nearly as much as my paycheck, and as a result, I don't abuse that leeway.

In the end I think it comes down to a calculated decision on whether or not it is better to find someone else, or keep your current staff taking into account cost to train, cost of errors new people make, and how valuable her experience is. She always has the right to threaten to quit, and you really shouldn't take it personally. When I was young and confident (read: foolish) I often quit jobs for silly reasons, and it is really the only weapon she has to even try to fight back against being written up.

[Skeeter]

Give them an inch and they take a mile. Sometimes you have to stick to your guns. Use the write up as an example. If someone quits over it, fuck em. Hotel work sounds like unskilled labor to me.

[Delias]

Give them an inch and they take a mile. Sometimes you have to stick to your guns. Use the write up as an example. If someone quits over it, fuck em. Hotel work sounds like unskilled labor to me.

All depends on your job. It's also important to find trustworthy employees... I've seen a hundred different scams since I started in the business, always a way for a smart and unscrupulous employee to make a little on the side, and it can take a long time to catch them sometimes. We've lost more employees to thievery in the last 6 years than for any other reason...

[ZeP]

If the employee's signature is on something clarifying that a "day off" that isn't vacation means "on call" then they're fucked.

However, if these meetings are motivational BS then the OP is surely hellbound, signature or not.

Also what does the hospitality industry meet about anyway? If there is over "X" amount of blood on the floor you call the cops instead of cleaning it up?

[WRoss]

All depends on your job. It's also important to find trustworthy employees... I've seen a hundred different scams since I started in the business, always a way for a smart and unscrupulous employee to make a little on the side, and it can take a long time to catch them sometimes. We've lost more employees to thievery in the last 6 years than for any other reason...

You work in hospitality and the lead reason for losing employees is thievery? You must not check your liquor cost. Though I guess drinking on the job is theft.

[Delias]

You work in hospitality and the lead reason for losing employees is thievery? You must not check your liquor cost. Though I guess drinking on the job is theft.

We're kind of a concept hotel, the only booze we have is champagne. We don't even have a restaurant.

In the immortal words of 2 live crew, Welcome to the FuckShop: http://www.sybaris.com/modules/main/default.aspx

[4a6c1]

We're kind of a concept hotel, the only booze we have is champagne. We don't even have a restaurant.

In the immortal words of 2 live crew, Welcome to the FuckShop: http://www.sybaris.com/modules/main/default.aspx

Ooooh.

[Amber]

She told her supervisor a week ago that she would be out of town.
Based on this statement, I would have excused her absence. If her supervisor knew she was going to be out of town and authorized her having the day off, I feel she covered her bases.

[Celephais]

People are getting confused over what a day off is. It's not the same as a vacation day. If you asked for a vacation day, that's when you say FUCK THAT NOISE to work. They made the schedule, you were given 5 work days, you're still 'on call' for those two other days, your version of a weekend happened to fall on a day that had a mandatory meeting, the type that you had been told that 'day off' doesn't get you out of, if you wanted out of the meeting then you needed to ask for a vacation day.

... She obviously knew this too, because she didn't just skip it, she was late.

[Amber]

Universities most definitely got the Monday off. When July 4th falls on a Saturday, universities take the Friday off, and when it falls on a Sunday they take the Monday off.

Even though the holiday proper is on the weekend, it is said to be 'observed' on the weekday that it's taken off.

Actually, it depends on the state and the university. When I worked at universities in Massachusetts and Washington, yes, we would get an extra day off when a holiday fell on a weekend. At the University where I'm at now, they have this rather odd system where the extra days for holidays that fall on weekends somehow get rolled into a two week Christmas holiday and a one week spring holiday. It's very strange, but I'm not complaining.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

I don't get this at all. Even when I was working at a school, which I always figured was the industry most extravagant with time off, I can't remember getting holiday + 1 for any holiday. I would prefer if I could roll into work whenever it was convenient for me and my schedule, but that's completely unreasonable for any kind of collaborative endeavor.

Then take it from someone from the industry the LEAST extravagant with time off (food = most popular holidays be prepared to work your fucking ass off starting way fucking early that morning) that in most normal jobs, that sort of thing is not only expected but just a sort of courtesy.

"Fuck you, don't enjoy the 4th fireworks, go to bed when the sun goes down and get your ass into work because you need this job in this shit economy!!" is honestly not what a smart company wants to be projecting. It's shitty for morale, and just plain thinking ahead about who will likely try to take vacations during that week (omg, surprise surprise people like to take a long holiday weekend!!1) it was shit planning for whoever planned the meeting. Being a dick and doing dick moves for no good reason (hint: an industry where it can't be avoided doesn't count) is never really a nice practice. ANd sorry, unless OP is working in hospitality or an understaffed hospital, whoever decided July 5th was a nice day for an all hands meeting should be punched in their ovaries and/or testicles, respectively, for being such a dipshit.

[Mighty Nikkisaurus]

People are getting confused over what a day off is. It's not the same as a vacation day. If you asked for a vacation day, that's when you say FUCK THAT NOISE to work. They made the schedule, you were given 5 work days, you're still 'on call' for those two other days, your version of a weekend happened to fall on a day that had a mandatory meeting, the type that you had been told that 'day off' doesn't get you out of, if you wanted out of the meeting then you needed to ask for a vacation day.

... She obviously knew this too, because she didn't just skip it, she was late.

I asked for 'days off' for three days.

And no offense to my boss, I love him, but if he called me halfway through those days off demanding I go in to work and help him I'd tell him as kindly as possible to go fuck himself if I got approval before leaving for said days off.

The difference to me is whether you're being paid to be absent or not and that's it. And frankly if I was still expected to go to some stupid meeting (I'm not going to say no offense Cai, but seriously most meetings are a waste of time meant exclusively for idiots to blather on like they know shit in the hopes that others don't catch on that they don't, and the smart people in attendance want to rip their eyeballs out for being subjected to that crap) I'd want to be told explicitly that despite clearing a day off OUT OF THE OFFICE that I'd still be expected to attend this meeting.

Maybe it's just because I understand too much from the disgruntled employees perspective- they work hard enough that they get employee of the month recognition. Your meetings are probably stupid management-oriented self-masturbatory and ultimately useless shit that no one but you cock jockeys gain anything from, and is it any surprise that on one of the biggest vacation weekends of the year one of your best employees wants a fucking break?

Here's a clue, if the meeting was that fucking important not to mention relevant you wouldn't need to find enforcements like 'writing people up' to make sure they show. They'd show because, you know, it actually mattered.

[sst]

We're kind of a concept hotel, the only booze we have is champagne. We don't even have a restaurant.

In the immortal words of 2 live crew, Welcome to the FuckShop: http://www.sybaris.com/modules/main/default.aspx

damn you now i have the song from the commercial stuck in my head I loved close to the Downers Grove one...

[thefarmer]

Here's a clue, if the meeting was that fucking important not to mention relevant you wouldn't need to find enforcements like 'writing people up' to make sure they show. They'd show because, you know, it actually mattered.

Speaking from a managers point of view, and not about the specific meeting of Caiylania's (though having it on the 5th was silly)..

The reason they should show up is because it was mandatory. It matters not what the meeting is about. In all the management positions I've had, I've held mandatory monthly meetings (and bi-weekly during the holiday seasons). Mainly it was information that they needed to be aware of, either from corporate, other members of my staff, or from myself. Occasionally though, the majority of the meeting was a 'Gripe Session' where I let the staff air any concerns, gripes, complaints, etc they had (and yes, attending was always one).

I expected everyone to attend, regardless of whether or not the employees felt it was important or not. Were all of them necessary? Not always, no. Did that matter? Not in the least. If it's mandatory, it's a part of the employee's job.

[Kranar]

The reason they should show up is because it was mandatory. It matters not what the meeting is about. In all the management positions I've had, I've held mandatory monthly meetings (and bi-weekly during the holiday seasons).

This isn't an argument though, it's just a restatement of the question. It doesn't help resolve the issue of whether it's sensible business policy to have a mandatory meeting the day after a holiday and then reprimand someone who didn't show up for it because they received permission to have that day off.

Yes I know, the economy sucks, so everyone has to do whatever their boss says and put up with way more crap from those in power... ain't no better time to be rich than when everyone else is poor, that's for sure. But in a free market economy there is still competition, and given a population of businesses where all else is equal... those that are smart enough to not schedule mandatory meetings the day after a holiday and make their employees feel like crap for not showing up to a meeting when they took the day off will have more productivity than those that do.

You can look at it from the employees point of view all you want, point the finger at them day and night. What will you, as the manager, have accomplished other than asserting your authority? Are you creating more wealth/value for your company by reprimanding that employee? It's so easy to be tough on others, but I think before you can get tough on others, you need to get tough on yourself first and question the soundness of your own decision before you judge the people who work for you.

Your job as a manager isn't to punish people, it's not to teach them life lessons about how its your way or the highway. Your job is to create value for the stakeholders of your company. Are you doing that by reprimanding an employee for what is a pretty silly mistake on your part or will you create more value by holding mandatory meetings at a time when it is reasonable for all your employees to attend it?

Something tells me, writeup or not, mandatory meetings won't be taking place the day after a pretty major holiday at this company anymore.

[thefarmer]

This isn't an argument though, it's just a restatement of the question. It doesn't help resolve the issue of whether it's sensible business policy to have a mandatory meeting the day after a holiday and then reprimand someone who didn't show up for it because they received permission to have that day off.


I was specifically responding to the last part of Nikki's post, but even still, maybe you should re-read the first part of what I posted?


Speaking from a managers point of view, and not about the specific meeting of Caiylania's (though having it on the 5th was silly)..

[Delias]

Here is the difference between management and grunt: Management is salaried, grunts are paid by the hour. This means management is in effect always on the job, and always on call. As a grunt, I sure as shit don't get paid nearly enough to be on call on my days off. I had another point to make, but seeing as I just woke up, I have completely forgotten what it was. The end.

[Skeeter]

attitudes like Nikki's are why you have to make meetings mandatory and write people up who are late/no shows.

[Delias]

attitudes like Nikki's are why you have to make meetings mandatory and write people up who are late/no shows.

This makes me curious as to what you do for a living.

[AnticorRifling]

Show up or don't it's your choice (nice to have one of those). It was scheduled, you knew about it, you weren't covered via policy (taking a real vacation day in lieu of some extended personal time or whatever it was). Last I checked the holiday is July 4th. July 5th is just a day. Threatening to quit because you were wrong wooo that's going to end well. Write them up, write them off and move on.

They got their holiday.

[Drisco]

I think you should let it slide. It's not like she missed the meeting, she was only 20 minutes late at that. Was this a Paid Leave? Was she getting compensated for having to show up to a meeting when it was her day off.

Really what I see is that you are giving the same punishment to those who were Late (only 20 mins) and those who missed it entirely. She's probably kicking her ass that she went to the meeting in the first place. Right there you are making a discouraging work environment and enforcing a Policy that lowers people work moral.

She probably is feeling like it's an unfair punishment when she did show up and I bet she was willing to stay a little bit extra to catch up on what she missed. For god sake it was the 5th of July, most people make plans to go visit family and friends and take the Monday off. Mandatory Meetings after a major holiday are silly. Also is it in her contract that these meetings can't be missed or are they just a verbal thing you guys say.

[AnticorRifling]

I think you should let it slide. It's not like she missed the meeting, she was only 20 minutes late at that. Was this a Paid Leave? Was she getting compensated for having to show up to a meeting when it was her day off.

Really what I see is that you are giving the same punishment to those who were Late (only 20 mins) and those who missed it entirely. She's probably kicking her ass that she went to the meeting in the first place. Right there you are making a discouraging work environment and enforcing a Policy that lowers people work moral.

She probably is feeling like it's an unfair punishment when she did show up and I bet she was willing to stay a little bit extra to catch up on what she missed. For god sake it was the 5th of July, most people make plans to go visit family and friends and take the Monday off. Mandatory Meetings after a major holiday are silly. Also is it in her contract that these meetings can't be missed or are they just a verbal thing you guys say.

Yeah let it slide, fuck all those people that showed up on time or early.

The 5th is not a holiday.

[Drisco]

Yeah let it slide, fuck all those people that showed up on time or early.

The 5th is not a holiday.


So you are saying the people who missed it entirely and the people who showed up late should get the same punishment?

[AnticorRifling]

So you are saying the people who missed it entirely and the people who showed up late should get the same punishment?

Yes.

[Drisco]

Yes.

I see.





















Just to reiterate: You'd rather have your employees not come in at all than show up 20 mins late.

[AnticorRifling]

I see.






Just to reiterate: You'd rather have your employees not come in at all than show up 20 mins late.

I'd rather they show up early or on time.

[Asile]

I think a lot of folks have missed clarifications Caiy made a bit later in the thread.

1) This is the hospitality industry, where there are NO real holidays in respect to time off; they need to have staff 24-7-365.

2) This was basically the girl's "weekend" day, and employees know that on such days, they can be called in.

3) When the request to have the day off was made, the girl should have been well aware of the policy that if a mandatory meeting is scheduled on your "weekend" day, your ass is in that room ON TIME.

Until the job ended a week ago (it was just a temporary position I was hoping would become permanent, but no luck), I was working in a hospital ER and fully planning to have to work my normal days, which were July 4 and 5. Why? Because parts of a hospital have to be staffed at all times. I knew that when I started the position. (I also worked Memorial Day.) I was expecting both days to be slower than normal, so having a mandatory meeting on the 5th wouldn't have been a surprise to me.

Looking at it from a managerial perspective, if the policy is in place and in writing, and your employees have been apprised of it, your job is to enforce it. Otherwise, you set yourself up to be undermined, and eventually that could come back to bite your ass at the worst possible time.

Based on the award this employee was being awarded, it doesn't sound like she's got a folder full of negative stuff regarding her work, and probably has a number of notes stating how GOOD she is at her work and to the company. One little write-up, which likely has the details of the offense, is not likely to affect her, unless she begins pulling this kind of shit constantly from here on out (which sounds like something that would be very abnormal for her and would be general cause for concern).

Was it unfair to schedule a mandatory meeting on July 5, when the holiday was the day before? Yes, but life isn't always fair. Hell, I'm expecting a write-up in my folder at my part-time job because I totally spaced on a mandatory lecture that was on a day I actually worked but scheduled for 2 hours after my shift ended. Am I threatening to quit over it? No, because I don't expect it to affect my status as an employee or ability to get a raise (if they ever end the freeze on those), since I'm otherwise a good employee (and hopefully my swim lesson/water fitness students have dropped a note to my boss saying how much they like my classes, since that's what they tell me and have even said they're disappointed I don't have time to teach as much as I could last summer).

In all honesty, this girl just seems to be a whiny bitch, and yes, if she wants to quit, feel free to remind her that no one's locked her in so she can walk out whenever she's ready. And then, if you were only in my area, I'd be asking for details on her position and potentially the address to send my resume; I doubt the pay is below the range I've begun accepting just to have some income.

[Asile]

I'd rather they show up early or on time.

^^ This

A lot of the mandatory meetings I've ever been to as an employee have seldom gone longer than an hour, with most of the important stuff done in the first 30 minutes or so. If someone's more than 10 minutes late, they might as well have not shown up at all.

As a personal quirk, 1 minute late is LATE when talking about other people; for myself, if I'm merely on time, I'm already late. Just something my dad, who served in the Marines, drilled in my head somehow.

[Ardwen]

I dont get the whole the 5th is a huge holiday thing, last time I checked the calendar the fifth of July is just another monday, just because half the country seems to have decided its a spot for a day off doesnt mean its Christmas or something. If the meeting is scheduled and everyone knew in advance they should all be there and on time. You seem to go way out of your way in allowing people to pick their work days as it is, if they cant respect that they have the issue not you.

[Stanley Burrell]

Just be really nice to her and make sure someone else fires her.

I voted for Gestapo because it has lots of exclamation marks.

[Delias]

Yeah, I mean really, Nazi's had mandatory meetings too. That makes you hitler.

See that mean glenn beck I pulled there?

[TheEschaton]

I don't see how Caiy's at fault here at all.

Scheduling a meeting for the 5th? So fucking what? It's not a holiday. I've had meetings scheduled for December 26th, and despite the 25th being some sort of super holy day, I'm still expected to be in on the 26th. NOt to mention, that job (social work) couldn't even be done when government offices were closed, but I was still in my office, at work processing paperwork and meeting clients, etc, etc.

Some businesses don't stop for holidays. Emergency care and hospitality are two of them.

[Atlanteax]

I linked this thread to my HR friend, and she says that the person can wave FLSA and sue, as it was a day off, whether or not it was "official" ... and of course, affirmed the notion that there is probably 10 people who want the job if said person quits.

Edited to add the comment "write her up, even if it is BS".

[Drakefang]

I work in retail management. It's a similar type of labor as working in a hotel.

I think you've done very little wrong here, despite what some may be claiming. If the woman is threatening to quit to force your hand, she's doing it wrong. Additionally, she obviously knows how the meetings function as she showed up to work on her day off for it. I'd actually be more inclined to excuse the one who never made it in. Either they didn't know about the policy or they put the holiday and their family first. The one who showed up 20+ minutes late obviously was aware of procedure and policy. I doubt her supervisor called her from the meeting to be sure she arrived, late or otherwise. It's exactly the same as if she was written up for being 20+ minutes late for her regular shift.

Obviously, this goes to the increasing sense of entitlement employees feel they deserve in this country and perhaps others. I'm curious how young she is, or isn't? Regardless, I don't see how you, as the boss, have done anything wrong. You are not firing her...merely you are punishing her for something she must've known she'd be in trouble for and she simply wants an out...or else she'd not have bothered to show at all.

Those indicating that it was a holiday and she should not be punished probably get all holidays off with pay (as they are probably salaried, too, but maybe not). I suspect that's mainly a difference in grade/type of work those here on the boards perform. I'm behind your actions. I had a guy no call no show both Sat. and Sun. He's pretty much done and gone. It happens. Unfortunately, it happens more now than it did 10 years ago.

[Methais]

Were all of them necessary? Not always, no.

In that case, what's the point of making it mandatory when the meeting itself isn't even necessary?

[Drakefang]

In that case, what's the point of making it mandatory when the meeting itself isn't even necessary?

It's for consistency. If you don't make all of them mandatory, then suddenly people start making excuses for being late or missing them. They become a huge mess. All the meetings in my company are mandatory, as it removes the need to qualify who needs to attend, cuts down on hurt feelings or whatever. There are almost always people who don't need to attend meetings because they are doing it right...most meetings are for those who can't get it right on their own. Well, often any way.

[Methais]

It's for consistency. If you don't make all of them mandatory, then suddenly people start making excuses for being late or missing them. They become a huge mess. All the meetings in my company are mandatory, as it removes the need to qualify who needs to attend, cuts down on hurt feelings or whatever. There are almost always people who don't need to attend meetings because they are doing it right...most meetings are for those who can't get it right on their own. Well, often any way.

I should have worded it better...

If the meeting isn't necessary, why even have it, instead of, "Nothing worth a shit for this month, we'll have a meeting next month when we have real things to talk about."?

[Drakefang]

I should have worded it better...

If the meeting isn't necessary, why even have it, instead of, "Nothing worth a shit for this month, we'll have a meeting next month when we have real things to talk about."?

I think you worded it just fine. How many companies in the world have daily, weekly or monthly meetings that are pretty much a waste of time? Most of those companies have the meetings simply to be consistent. If only 20% of the meetings are beneficial, that's probably still a decent return on the time wasted the other 80%. Just my opinion.

[Drisco]

Personally the fact that you are doubting your own system makes it sound like the Policy isn't good. If you have doubts about a policy they shouldn't be implemented The rule should be clear cut and you shouldn't have to doubt yourself.

[Sean]

Personally the fact that you are doubting your own system makes it sound like the Policy isn't good. If you have doubts about a policy they shouldn't be implemented The rule should be clear cut and you shouldn't have to doubt yourself.

What part of the meetings are mandatory and not being on rotation for the day doesn't excuse you from attending isn't clear cut?

[Methais]

What part of the meetings are mandatory and not being on rotation for the day doesn't excuse you from attending isn't clear cut?

The part where she made this thread/poll asking us what we thought about the writeup.

[Sean]

The part where she made this thread/poll asking us what we thought about the writeup.

Caiylania feeling bad about how her actions may inpact her employee doesn't make the rule any less clear cut.

[Methais]

Caiylania feeling bad about how her actions may inpact her employee doesn't make the rule any less clear cut.

Why should she even give the slightest shit what we think about it then?

[Caiylania]

I agree that it would reek of favoritism or just generally be suspicious if you don't follow through with what you said. What are the actual consequences of a write-up where you are?

Write ups are used as a track record. To be fired you have to have committed either the same offense repeatedly or commit a really big offense. Mistakes and bad decisions happen for everyone and it just gives me a basis to see their history.

She would basically have to miss 2 more meetings for termination. Two write ups, 3rd offense is firing.


I think we're on the same page, but honestly there's a lot of info missing here. You didn't say from the start what the industry is, and hospitality is a different sort of industry where people are expected to work holidays because hotels are often busy on holidays. And obviously she or the supervisor told you she talked to them, so did you talk to the supervisor or not? And what did they say if you did? If the super said, "I'll see what I can do, but you know we have this mandatory meeting" then stick to the write up. If the super didn't say that, then you're writing up the wrong person.

She requested that day off after the meeting was scheduled and she was told she still had to attend. She said she may not make it, her supervisor told her if she didn't make it it would be a write up.

As an add on, the supervisor did not make it at all and was also written up. She understood and acknowledged she knew better and should have set an example. I respected her more for just signing it and moving on.


1- the meeting should not have been scheduled for July 5th. Whoever did that is a dipshit

:( I explained in a previous post why it was that day.


Sounds like the 5th was one of her weekend days like a normal saturday or sunday for me. If thats the case sometimes you have to work weekends and if the company policy is even if you have those days off you have to show up for meetings then so be it follow the protocol and tell her to deal with it.

Pretty much this. And just to add here... they do get to clock in and get paid for it.


It doesn't sound like employees are given a reminder about the meetings outside of the little note. If the meetings are all that important, reminders should be sent - especially if it's for a meeting during a somewhat shitty day for one.

Employees that are on a paid day off, regardless of the type of day off, should be permitted to call in and "attend" over the phone. They can sign the sheet during their next work day or send in an email as a signature.

Edited to add: I don't think the policy is necessarily unfair, but I do think it's shitty. I think more should be done to ensure everyone attends in some way.

There are constant reminders, both verbal and a sign posted by the time clock. If it is a paid day off, they are not required to attend. Believe it or not we treat vacation days as well earned respites and leave people alone. This was a regular day off that she basically got to pick. Her Saturday was on a Monday you could say.


Speaking from a managers point of view, and not about the specific meeting of Caiylania's (though having it on the 5th was silly)..

The reason they should show up is because it was mandatory. It matters not what the meeting is about. In all the management positions I've had, I've held mandatory monthly meetings (and bi-weekly during the holiday seasons). Mainly it was information that they needed to be aware of, either from corporate, other members of my staff, or from myself. Occasionally though, the majority of the meeting was a 'Gripe Session' where I let the staff air any concerns, gripes, complaints, etc they had (and yes, attending was always one).

I expected everyone to attend, regardless of whether or not the employees felt it was important or not. Were all of them necessary? Not always, no. Did that matter? Not in the least. If it's mandatory, it's a part of the employee's job.

What he said. The first half is awards, policy changes, news, updates, etc... the second half is employee input, ideas, gripes, etc...


The part where she made this thread/poll asking us what we thought about the writeup.

Because I am always willing to hear opinions and consider if I'm wrong. Employee morale is important to me and policies can change. Personally, even after reading these replies I do not feel I was in the wrong. But there were some valid points. Going back, I would have tried to put it on a different day. But at the time there didn't seem any other option and it doesn't change the fact she knew she should have been there.

On a personal level I wasn't mad at any of them. I understood. But if I had not written them up, everyone would start pushing a line I didn't need drawn.

[Methais]

She requested that day off after the meeting was scheduled and she was told she still had to attend. She said she may not make it, her supervisor told her if she didn't make it it would be a write up.

Well fuck her then, she deserved it.

The 5th was still dumb no matter what though. :club:

[Archigeek]

Yeah if she asked for the fifth and was told no, that clarifies it.

[thefarmer]

In that case, what's the point of making it mandatory when the meeting itself isn't even necessary?



I should have worded it better...

If the meeting isn't necessary, why even have it, instead of, "Nothing worth a shit for this month, we'll have a meeting next month when we have real things to talk about."?

I probably should have worded myself better, your question(s) were fine.

When I put 'necessary' I should have put 'necessary from the employee's point of view'. There was always something that they needed to be aware of each month. Target goals for various things, expectation results from the prior month and the upcoming one, etc. The type of things were what they were expected to know and be held accountable for.

[Skeeter]

This makes me curious as to what you do for a living.

currently I work for local government.

Previously I was in charge of staffing (among other things) 24/7 homes for individuals with disabilities. We had mandatory meetings often. I'm not sure what part of mandatory is hard for some people to understand. A lot of people in unskilled labor jobs are there for a reason, and they try to abuse the system as much as possible.

[Drakefang]

Hospitality is a 24 hour a day, 365 day a year job. The 5th of July for a meeting is no more stupid than the 5th of October or 5th of August. It's not a holiday, and it's not even typically a big vacation day because it isn't one of the typical Monday holidays (like Memorial day or Labor day) where people ask for extra days off for long weekends.

[Caiylania]

A red rep comment I got:


The write up: Fair or... 07-08-2010 02:45 AM You will never get anything to stick when you try to force an hourly employee to come in for an hour on their day off. Scheduling it for what should be a busy day for your industry is just beyond incompetent on your part. Let it go

I didn't schedule it for a busy day. That was my entire point as of why I had to schedule it for July 5th. It was our ONLY slow day that week. Here is what I said in an earlier post about it:


Sunday and Mondays are our slowest days. The meeting delt with things that needed to be addressed. If I had slotted it later in the week housekeeping would have been working until late at night to make up for time spent in the meeting. It couldn't be the week after that because as I said, the issues needed to be addressed. I didn't like it either and also would have liked to go out of town or stay up ridiculously late but I knew I had to be there so I sucked it up.

[Ryvicke]

From reading your posts here you seem like a very conscientious person.

You're the boss, don't sweat it.

[Delias]

You're the boss, don't sweat it.

Tyranny is a very ineffective motivational tool. I still think a verbal warning would have been sufficient. People react more favorably to the times you show them mercy over the times you give them a thrashing, so long as you make it clear that said thrashing is held in reserve in case said behavior should arise again.

[AnticorRifling]

It's not tyranny. Tyranny would be writing her up and then writing up the person sitting next by her just to prove a point that if you're late you hurt those around you.

[Ryvicke]

Tyranny is a very ineffective motivational tool. I still think a verbal warning would have been sufficient. People react more favorably to the times you show them mercy over the times you give them a thrashing, so long as you make it clear that said thrashing is held in reserve in case said behavior should arise again.

Yeah I mean like--don't sweat it anymore. She's obviously thought it through quite a bit and heard from everyone and in the end she made the decision.

[Buckwheet]

Was it possible for her to trade shifts with someone and then take that day as a paid vacation day?

The only sticking point I have is that the supervisor admitted to just missing it and taking the write up. The other employee said they would do their best to make it, and did what they said they were going to do. I think the supervisor should have gotten into more trouble for just blowing it off and admitting it than the employee who openly says I will be out of town, I will do everything I can to get there, but I might not make it. And they did show up, even if it was 20 minutes late.

Also, if the answer to my question is yes and this person's supervisor did nothing to try and accommodate a company admitted quality employee, that just tells me this super isn't doing their job. So the super in this case was lackadaisical in managing their team, and also tells you the write up isn't sufficient enough deterrent for them.

The super sounds like the problem here and the other employee is being punished just to portray equilibrium.

[Caiylania]

If she had taken the day as a vacation day it would have been a non issue. She had the day off but was told she still had to make the meeting.



Tyranny is a very ineffective motivational tool. I still think a verbal warning would have been sufficient. People react more favorably to the times you show them mercy over the times you give them a thrashing, so long as you make it clear that said thrashing is held in reserve in case said behavior should arise again.

I am far from tyrannical. I have an open door policy and if people come to me with valid issues I listen to them. If they are in trouble with a supervisor and they come to me with that supervisor I will listen to both sides as long as the employee is being respectful.

I wasn't like HHHAHAHAHAHAHAAA you got WROTE UP!!!11!!

Before I gave it to her I made a point of telling her (and the other employees that got one) I was NOT mad but that she knew the consequences and while I hope she had a great time it would not be fair to not write her up when everyone else was getting a write up.

If I didn't do the write up, then we all know the next meeting would be mostly empty and if I tried to write people up for it then I would have the "non write ups" thrown in my face.

Yes, I do realize write ups are confidential. But in the past most employees happily complain or gloat if they get one or get out of one. So while I would not have told other people... everyone still would have known either way.

[Sean]

Maybe I missed it but is there any actual consequence to a write up? Or is it just like a finger wag on paper.

[Celephais]

Maybe I missed it but is there any actual consequence to a write up? Or is it just like a finger wag on paper.

She said that multiple write ups for the same thing can lead to being fired.

Sounds like it shouldn't be an issue.

[ElvenFury]

Write ups are used as a track record. To be fired you have to have committed either the same offense repeatedly or commit a really big offense. Mistakes and bad decisions happen for everyone and it just gives me a basis to see their history.

She would basically have to miss 2 more meetings for termination. Two write ups, 3rd offense is firing.
.

[Lumi]

I think a lot of folks have missed clarifications Caiy made a bit later in the thread.

1) This is the hospitality industry, where there are NO real holidays in respect to time off; they need to have staff 24-7-365.

2) This was basically the girl's "weekend" day, and employees know that on such days, they can be called in.

3) When the request to have the day off was made, the girl should have been well aware of the policy that if a mandatory meeting is scheduled on your "weekend" day, your ass is in that room ON TIME.

^This.


Write ups are used as a track record. To be fired you have to have committed either the same offense repeatedly or commit a really big offense. Mistakes and bad decisions happen for everyone and it just gives me a basis to see their history.

She would basically have to miss 2 more meetings for termination. Two write ups, 3rd offense is firing.



She requested that day off after the meeting was scheduled and she was told she still had to attend. She said she may not make it, her supervisor told her if she didn't make it it would be a write up.

/thread. This is unquestionably the end of the issue. She did NOT take it as a PTO vacation day, she simply asked that it be one of the days she was not scheduled; a "floating weekend" day. Company policy, as it seems she and everyone else knows, is that on such a day, you're still on call because of the nature of your industry (hospitality). Then, when she made that request, she was explicitly told she still had to make the meeting.

How is that not open and shut?


As an add on, the supervisor did not make it at all and was also written up. She understood and acknowledged she knew better and should have set an example. I respected her more for just signing it and moving on.



:( I explained in a previous post why it was that day.



Pretty much this. And just to add here... they do get to clock in and get paid for it.

...they get paid for the time they clock in on their days off for mandatory meetings. Even less of a leg to stand on for the complaining employee.



There are constant reminders, both verbal and a sign posted by the time clock. If it is a paid day off, they are not required to attend. Believe it or not we treat vacation days as well earned respites and leave people alone. This was a regular day off that she basically got to pick. Her Saturday was on a Monday you could say.



What he said. The first half is awards, policy changes, news, updates, etc... the second half is employee input, ideas, gripes, etc...



Because I am always willing to hear opinions and consider if I'm wrong. Employee morale is important to me and policies can change. Personally, even after reading these replies I do not feel I was in the wrong. But there were some valid points. Going back, I would have tried to put it on a different day. But at the time there didn't seem any other option and it doesn't change the fact she knew she should have been there.

On a personal level I wasn't mad at any of them. I understood. But if I had not written them up, everyone would start pushing a line I didn't need drawn.

You are completely in the right, Caiy. If the supervisor hadn't been so clear on the matter, I might feel differently, but it sounds like everyone except this girl did precisely what they were supposed to do, including you.

[Delias]

Well, it's your staff. I predict an upsurge of passive aggressive resentment and job performance dropping quite a bit. Best of luck with it all.

[Caiylania]

Well, it's your staff. I predict an upsurge of passive aggressive resentment and job performance dropping quite a bit. Best of luck with it all.

It has been a few days and honestly there is no sign of that except with her. But you are right, if a lot of people here feel that way and she tells everyone how she feels, and they either hear only her side or what have you it may happen.

I have a lot of faith in my people though, most of them have been with me for years.

[Caiylania]

Day off = no meeting. That's what day off means.

It is one paid hour of their day. And no matter what day a meeting is on at a hotel multiple people have the day off.

While I feel bad for those people, I started at the bottom and understood it happens. If they are not there then they use that as an excuse for not knowing policy changes and other updates.

I do not have time to rehash the meeting over and over again with the people who were not here. Not to mention when people do miss it, I hear "But I wasn't hear and had no say in that..." Because yes, I ask for employee input on ideas and changes.

Ah well. I know a lot of people disagree and overall I think this thread was actually pretty mature with it's responses whether or not you were agreeing with me and I appreciate that.

[Kuyuk]

If you call someone in for a meeting, you have to pay them for a minimum time.. I learned yesterday from our GM that it was 4 hours at our locations.. so when we have meetings, we have shit for people to do afterwards ;-)

[ElvenFury]

If you call someone in for a meeting, you have to pay them for a minimum time.. I learned yesterday from our GM that it was 4 hours at our locations.. so when we have meetings, we have shit for people to do afterwards ;-)
I believe that's a state thing. In Mass it's 3 hours, unless you specifically tell the person beforehand that they'll only be coming in for less than that. The idea being to keep employers from calling people in for 15 minutes and then changing their minds.

[thefarmer]

The only sticking point I have is that the supervisor admitted to just missing it and taking the write up. The other employee said they would do their best to make it, and did what they said they were going to do. I think the supervisor should have gotten into more trouble for just blowing it off and admitting it than the employee who openly says I will be out of town, I will do everything I can to get there, but I might not make it. And they did show up, even if it was 20 minutes late.

So if I miss work for three days straight but come in with flowers, candy and a big apology letter I shouldn't get the same punishment that the guy that just didn't come in for three days because he wanted an extended vacation gets? How the supervisor is going to get into more trouble is during end of the year evaluations.


So the super in this case was lackadaisical in managing their team, and also tells you the write up isn't sufficient enough deterrent for them.

A write-up isn't just used as a deterrent. It's for recording purposes.


The super sounds like the problem here and the other employee is being punished just to portray equilibrium.

It's not to "portray" equilibrium. It's something called setting standards for all employees. From a manager's point of view you simply cannot give different reprimands based on the excuses (or lack of) given to you. From an HR standpoint, legally you cannot do this either.



If you call someone in for a meeting, you have to pay them for a minimum time.. I learned yesterday from our GM that it was 4 hours at our locations.. so when we have meetings, we have shit for people to do afterwards ;-)

That's either a state or company policy, as I've never had to pay mine for a specific minimum amount of time in any of the South Eastern companies I've worked for.

[4a6c1]

I am in extreme disagreement with whatever policy does not allow you to fire that person when they act like a douchebag.

[Buckwheet]

So if I miss work for three days straight but come in with flowers, candy and a big apology letter I shouldn't get the same punishment that the guy that just didn't come in for three days because he wanted an extended vacation gets? How the supervisor is going to get into more trouble is during end of the year evaluations.



A write-up isn't just used as a deterrent. It's for recording purposes.



It's not to "portray" equilibrium. It's something called setting standards for all employees. From a manager's point of view you simply cannot give different reprimands based on the excuses (or lack of) given to you. From an HR standpoint, legally you cannot do this either.




That's either a state or company policy, as I've never had to pay mine for a specific minimum amount of time in any of the South Eastern companies I've worked for.

Re-read what I said. If you miss three days of work and when I ask you why you missed three days you said hey just because all you are going to do is give me a write up oooooh scary. Its about the direct disrespect shown. If you were sick and knew that being sick could get you fired because you were gone for three days, but you called me every day telling me why you couldn't make it in, had doctors notes, and told me on the third day I am still really sick not sure I can make it in today, I know if I don't I can be fired, and then showed up 20 minutes late to your shift, I would give you a lot of credit for sticking with what you said.

It doesn't matter if the write up is a for tracking purposes or not. There are a multitude of ways you can track someone being directly opposed to authority in a job that doesn't require a write up that then equals 3x you're out. It can than come up at performance reviews or an annual review.


I call bullshit on your HR legal thing also. I live and work in a at will state. I can fire anyone for any reason with a few strings attached. That means my policies all contain up to and including termination. If you wear Barney socks on a tuesday I can just say pack your shit you are gone. I have had plenty of people explain their way out of a termination. Equal treatment of employees is dumb because no situation is identical.

[Caiylania]

Re-read what I said. If you miss three days of work and when I ask you why you missed three days you said hey just because all you are going to do is give me a write up oooooh scary. Its about the direct disrespect shown. If you were sick and knew that being sick could get you fired because you were gone for three days, but you called me every day telling me why you couldn't make it in, had doctors notes, and told me on the third day I am still really sick not sure I can make it in today, I know if I don't I can be fired, and then showed up 20 minutes late to your shift, I would give you a lot of credit for sticking with what you said.

On the other hand, they are choosing to put a nail in their coffin. I've tried to explain a lot of the situation but it is impossible to cover every conversation and every point. She (the supervisor) was not disrespectful during the discussion. She realizes that she had better not miss anymore meetings because odds are I will come down harder on her for it. She was completely apologetic and thus took her write up without all the drama.


It doesn't matter if the write up is a for tracking purposes or not. There are a multitude of ways you can track someone being directly opposed to authority in a job that doesn't require a write up that then equals 3x you're out. It can than come up at performance reviews or an annual review.

The 3x your out is not automatic. I explain to people that after 2 write ups, yes if you screw up, you can expect to be terminated. But if the write ups are for different mistakes or they have completely changed their behavior patterns I will take that in to account. Maybe someone has 2 on file but their newest transgression is not related at all and they explain it well or whatever. I have people who have 0 write ups but only because they know how to stay on the edge of being a horrid employee yet never quite getting caught directly doing something shitty. And I have other employees that are great people but make mistakes and it takes them a few times to get their head on straight.


I live and work in a at will state. I can fire anyone for any reason with a few strings attached. That means my policies all contain up to and including termination. If you wear Barney socks on a tuesday I can just say pack your shit you are gone. I have had plenty of people explain their way out of a termination. Equal treatment of employees is dumb because no situation is identical.

I agree with all of the above. There really is no black and white a majority of the time. If one person is late because their car broke down and the other one is late because they are recovering from a hang over they will have different consequences.

This was a black and white one for me at this time. There were no family emergencies, broken down cars, etc... Each person knew there was a meeting. Knew they had to be here, and made choices on whether they could get here or not. I respected them for their honesty (she could have claimed she had a flat, etc...) but that didn't change they KNEW if they did not come it was a write up.

[Caiylania]

The write up: Fair or... 07-08-2010 03:55 PM I would hate you for a boss. You have no respect for your employees, and if I were one of your employees, I would report you to the Labor Department, since getting called into work on a day off = 4 hours of pay, not 1 hour

I am truly sorry you feel that way. This is one situation where okay, not everyone agrees with me. I understand the other side, that doesn't mean I have changed my mind. However, I do respect her feelings and as mentioned before, I have an open door policy as well as allowing people to state ideas and issues at meetings. People know they can be honest with me and not be punished for telling me that they disagree.

She and I have spoken again and while we have agreed to disagree she calmed down enough that we had a much better conversation about it and she understands more of where I am coming from.

I came here knowing a lot of people would blast me and I'm okay with that. Though I wish you knew more of how hard I try to be fair and that I do listen to my employees. It is rare that I draw a hard line and this happened to be one of them. That some of you think I am a bitch for doing so I realize that is your right.

Maybe back when I was in housekeeping or front desk I would have felt the same as her. But from a managers perspective these decisions are not always as clear cut as the employees think they are. Every award, punishment, decision, etc... has consequences and ramifications.

Perhaps a poster is right and people will have lower morale. Maybe others are right and more people will be respectful. Time will tell.

In the end I did not do this to be mean to her. I did not do it to say I don't respect her. I did it because I'm tired of some employees deciding when and which rules they will follow. At the last meeting I put my foot down and said end of story, the next person to be late or not attend is getting written up.

I stuck to my word. It was their choice.

[Buckwheet]

To each their own, and its why there are management styles.

That supervisor is lucky they have you and not me. I would have burned them at the stake for not having a good reason for getting there, late or not. They would have gotten a lot more reprimand than the person who did exactly as they stated.

Direct insubordination is something I just won't tolerate.

[Caiylania]

To each there own, and its why there are management styles.

That supervisor is lucky they have you and not me. I would have burned them at the stake for not having a good reason for getting there, late or not. They would have gotten a lot more reprimand than the person who did exactly as they stated.

Direct insubordination is something I just won't tolerate.

The employee that was the cause of this thread told me that she almost did the same thing as well but thought she wouldn't get written up just for being late even though I stated tardiness and not being there would have a write up.

And as someone else pointed out, the supervisor's decision is going to greatly affect her evaluation. Whereas I had already agreed that this would not affect the employee's eval.

[thefarmer]

To each their own, and its why there are management styles.

Direct insubordination is something I just won't tolerate.

We can agree on this at least.