10 Year Anniversary.

[TheEschaton]

Ten years ago, today, April 5th, 1994, Kurt Cobain died.


Discuss amongst yourselves.

I still remember the first time I heard Nirvana - a scratchy tape of Lithium my best friend had. I gave up hip hop for rock, because of that one song. I eventually liked both, but for awhile...yeah.

Edited to add: Presumed dead. Ha! Just ask Courtney, she should know.

-TheE-

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by TheEschaton]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

I'll always be a big fan of Nirvana, whether or not some people consider them "overrated." By the way, his body wasn't found until the 8th. They presume he died on the 5th or 6th.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Meos]

I bought the en utro tape at a flea market when I was like 11 for a couple bucks and was hooked...

I remember he killed himself not to shortly after and I didn't get it. Only now that I listen to it you know what he was going through. Incredible artist, he really was.

[peam]

Yep.

Probably one of the most well-known and defining artists of my generation.

I bought and skimmed through his journal that they published. He seemed like an interesting and extremely intelligent guy, from what I read. I couldn't get too far into the journal, though. I felt guilty and had to give it away.

It was a shame when they blew up MTV-style and you had all these dumbass kids waving the Nirvana flag in a way that he never would have wanted.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by peam]

[Satira]

I love Kurt. Stupid Courtney.

[Atlanteax]

No Loss there, as far as I'm concerned.

[Hulkein]

Damn man, I can't believe that was ten years ago. I was a fan of Nirvana.. was too young to be a huge fan, but I liked them. I think Nirvana Unplugged was the first CD I really liked enough to listen all the way through.

[DeV]

I remember listening to Heart Shaped Box and liking it, I can't remember if thats the first Nirvana song I heard, but I was feeling it no less.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

Dunno, I find it hard to idolize a strung out drug user.

But it worked for Elvis and Jimmy, so more power to his rotting corpse, I suppose.

[DeV]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Dunno, I find it hard to idolize a strung out drug user.

But it worked for Elvis and Jimmy, so more power to his rotting corpse, I suppose.

I dont think anyone in this thread Idolizes him. I don't.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
Dunno, I find it hard to idolize a strung out drug user.

But it worked for Elvis and Jimmy, so more power to his rotting corpse, I suppose. I'll take generation gap for 200, Alex. :D

Seriously though, my dad's the same way. Just because the guy did (some) really good music doesn't mean we're all falling over ourselves to be just like him. Who would want to marry Courtney? Blech.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I thought Courtney was hot, once upon a time. When she does herself up she's quite attractive.

[Betheny]

Originally posted by Suppa Hobbit Mage
I thought Courtney was hot, once upon a time. When she does herself up she's quite attractive.

You're into the plastic made-up type? Who'da thunk it.

[DeV]

On a good day she looks like a 2 dollar crack whore.

[Kuyuk]

<<Ten years ago, today, April 5th, 1994, Kurt Cobain died. >>


Who the fuck cares?


Kuyuk

[Skirmisher]

Yeah, I have to be honest it doesn't matter to me either.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by peam
...

It was a shame when they blew up MTV-style and you had all these dumbass kids waving the Nirvana flag in a way that he never would have wanted.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by peam]
Ok, can you explain that for me? I have heard that so often from music "purist" types and it always strikes me as quite nonsensical.

Why is it a bad thing that someones music becomes popular?

To me its total bullshit to try to say they don't want to be popular or why would they even burn any CD's at all? Why even play in public for that matter if you are all about the music? Just sit at home in your garage/basement and play for your elite self.

To me it just seems like some fans get pissed that others like the group that they feel possesive about and are daring to want to join in what was till then akin to a private members only club.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Skirmisher
Why is it a bad thing that someones music becomes popular?My guess: it's one thing if the music becomes popular on its own merits. If the music becomes hugely popular because it is popular (i.e. it becomes the cool thing to like) that is intolerable.

[Artha]

It also kills the genre, when people realise there's money to be made and start pumping out mediocre crap that kills it. Eventually, it becomes formulaic and aimed at the lowest common denominator.

[Skirmisher]

Originally posted by Artha
It also kills the genre, when people realise there's money to be made and start pumping out mediocre crap that kills it. Eventually, it becomes formulaic and aimed at the lowest common denominator.

Ok, this point of view I can kind of understand.

[peam]

Artha is correct.

[GSTamral]

I can't say I care much for his death either. He brought it upon himself, and I've never found grunge rock to be entertaining. I can't knock the people who like it because they liked the sound, thats personal taste. Comparing him as a lyricist to others to me isn't right, but to each their own, and the matter is positively so subjective, its like the study of English Literature. A pure bullshit major developing skills in students to think just like their professor asks them to, and to interpret things the same way he/she does. However, comparing them as musicians is stupid. They are the masters of 4 chord sounds, and as we have seen on the radio, anyone and their mother can replicate it. Not complicated music, nothing overly original, just a different outlook and a look that makes you wonder if any of them bathed. Woooo.

Musically, they will never be a Floyd, a Cream, a Steeley Dan, or even a Zeppelin. Compared to the rock bands of today, neither will they match up musically with a Linkin Park (much as I hate them too), a Dave Matthews Band, or the Vines.

Call him a poet. Clapton wrote many a great song high as a kite on cocaine, even professing later that it helped him write songs and cope with life. But he didnt invent or re-invent a genre, nor was Nirvana a group of great "musicians". That's as ironic as saying you like Britney Spears because of her amazing voice.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by peam
Artha is correct. Well nuts. That's what I get for being mainstream, I guess.

[Artha]

Heh, that was more in response to Skirmisher than you, Latrin.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by GSTamral

Musically, they will never be a Floyd, a Cream, a Steeley Dan, or even a Zeppelin. Compared to the rock bands of today, neither will they match up musically with a Linkin Park (much as I hate them too), a Dave Matthews Band, or the Vines.

Call him a poet. Clapton wrote many a great song high as a kite on cocaine, even professing later that it helped him write songs and cope with life. But he didnt invent or re-invent a genre, nor was Nirvana a group of great "musicians". That's as ironic as saying you like Britney Spears because of her amazing voice.

Musicianship, I believe, is somewhat subjective as well. No one is claiming that Kurt Cobain was some technical genius who could play circles around Steve Vai, Yngwie Malmsteen, or any other "guitar god" you can think of. He was, however, a great MUSICIAN. He wrote catchy songs with great structure and melody. To say they are better than Zeppelin is as much a personal choice as trying to argue which lyrics are better.

And as far as the other musicians in Nirvana, I believe Dave Grohl is one of the most celebrated drummers in the past 10 - 20 years. In conclusion, your songs don't need to be some complex, 20-minute Pink Floyd epic LSD masterpiece to be considered a "talented" musician. At least not in my book.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[peam]

Complexity != Greatness.

<3ThisOtherKingdom

[TheEschaton]

But Pink Floyd's Welcome to the Machine LP? 6 songs, 45 minutes, it has to be great, right?


It is great. I think I'll put it on now.

-TheE-

[Satira]

Personally it was always his voice that got me. It's a matter of opinion whether you prefer a classically trained voice or something raw and unfiltered. I prefer the latter.

He kept a lot of truth in his voice and the pain that he felt really came through. I think that's what touched a lot of people about the music.

[GSTamral]

<<<
He kept a lot of truth in his voice and the pain that he felt really came through. I think that's what touched a lot of people about the music.
>>>

I can understand that as to why people liked Nirvana's music. I guess it never touched me in that way. I just know I listen to the radio nowadays and I can't tell one grunge band from another, and to be honest, maybe because the novelty is lost, I'm not sure I can even tell a nirvana song apart from the rest anymore.

[Satira]

There aren't any grunge bands anymore.

There's pop rock. That's it.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by GSTamral
<<<
He kept a lot of truth in his voice and the pain that he felt really came through. I think that's what touched a lot of people about the music.
>>>

I can understand that as to why people liked Nirvana's music. I guess it never touched me in that way. I just know I listen to the radio nowadays and I can't tell one grunge band from another, and to be honest, maybe because the novelty is lost, I'm not sure I can even tell a nirvana song apart from the rest anymore.

First of all, "grunge" music is long gone. And if you can't even tell the difference between the voices of Kurt Cobain, Chris Cornell, Layne Staley, Eddie Vedder, Mark Lanegan, or the music of the bands they belonged to, I seriously doubt you have the capacity to be a critic of music, let alone Nirvana.

[Hulkein]

<<Floyd, a Cream, a Steeley Dan, or even a Zeppelin.>>

Hey hey, this makes it sound as if Zeppelin is in a tier below them three? Zeppelin > All, musically and technically.

[Fengus]

Curt while a good artist was a bit pretentious, all he had to do to stop the fanatical devotion of his fans was to stop recording, duh!

BTW he isn't presumed dead, he is *dead*, I saw the pictures, prolly can still find em online.




play circles around Steve Vai, Yngwie Malmsteen, or any other "guitar god" you can think of

These guys may be technical masters of the guitar but they can't touch Hendrix. But I wouldn't even put Curt in the same boat as any of them, he could play, but his talent was in the raw anguish in his lyrics and singing.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Fengus

BTW he isn't presumed dead, he is *dead*, I saw the pictures, prolly can still find em online.

What I meant was they were presuming the exact date he died on, since they didn't find his body until about three days later.

[Mint]

There was some news show a few days ago that was touting a theory that Courtney killed Kurt. Anyone else catch that? I couldnt watch the whole thing. Think it was an NBC show.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint
There was some news show a few days ago that was touting a theory that Courtney killed Kurt. Anyone else catch that? I couldnt watch the whole thing. Think it was an NBC show.

It's nothing new.

http://www.cobaincase.com/

[Satira]

I watched it, but they've had all that infomation for years. I've been trying to tell people she planned it for a long ass time.

[Mint]

I think the guy who has been pushing the theory for so long is full of crap frankly. I think he just wants a bit of fame and sees this theory as his ticket. He needs to STFU and quit maligning someone that has not been charged.

[Satira]

All those things lead up to one conclusion. Obviously he didn't kill himself.
It's highly improbable that he injected himself with 8 times over the OD limit, was conscious enough to put the crap away in the kit, wiped the fingerprints off of all the shit in the kit, wrote the rest of the suicide note, then pulled the trigger on the gun AND the ricochet was so powerful it wiped off the fingerprints. Come on.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint
I think the guy who has been pushing the theory for so long is full of crap frankly. I think he just wants a bit of fame and sees this theory as his ticket. He needs to STFU and quit maligning someone that has not been charged.

Why do you care anyway, Mint? Wouldn't a more relevant topic to you be what a tragedy it was that they turned TNN into Spike TV?

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
All those things lead up to one conclusion. Obviously he didn't kill himself.
It's highly improbable that he injected himself with 8 times over the OD limit, was conscious enough to put the crap away in the kit, wiped the fingerprints off of all the shit in the kit, wrote the rest of the suicide note, then pulled the trigger on the gun AND the ricochet was so powerful it wiped off the fingerprints. Come on.

If it was so cut and dried why do you suppose she was never arrested (for that anyway) or charged with his murder hmm?

I don't suppose it had anything to do with this guy lying in order to make a buck by smearing her...


[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Mint]

[Satira]

Those are all facts.

The problem was the police assumed shit before they even looked into it, because he was a drug addict. To go back and say, uh well we didn't really think to do it, would make them look stupid.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Those are all facts.

The problem was the police assumed shit before they even looked into it, because he was a drug addict. To go back and say, uh well we didn't really think to do it, would make them look stupid.

Who's facts though? You can twist just about anything to suit your own theories if you try hard enough. There is no statute of limitations on murder. Since she was not charged it leads me to believe that the evidence was not as compelling as this person would have us believe.

[Mint]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Why do you care anyway, Mint? Wouldn't a more relevant topic to you be what a tragedy it was that they turned TNN into Spike TV?

The TOK/Satira tag team at work again ladies and gentlemen. Spiteful and Mean (dont ask me which is which).

[Satira]

That's fine if you don't believe it. I'm just saying THE POLICE and INVESTIGATORS don't always get shit right. Especially when they fuck up and don't want to go back and address it.

While I'd be happy to participate in any kind of wrestling where TOK is concerned, I don't think I said anything off topic or MEAN this time.

I'm surprised at your willingness to include me, Mint.

Although I don't mind the "spiteful" title.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
That's fine if you don't believe it. I'm just saying THE POLICE and INVESTIGATORS don't always get shit right. Especially when they fuck up and don't want to go back and address it.

While I'd be happy to participate in any kind of wrestling where TOK is concerned, I don't think I said anything off topic or MEAN this time.

I'm surprised at your willingness to include me, Mint.

Although I don't mind the "spiteful" title.

No, the investigators do not always get it right, however, if the evidence was as damn compelling and overwhelming as this guy would have you believe then even a completely incompetent investigator would have figured it out.

[Mint]

And I thought you wore your bitchiness with pride...so why all sad when someone points it out? Doesnt mean I dont agree with you sometimes and it does not mean you have less to contribute than anyone else. :P

[Satira]

I do wear my bitchiness with pride. It's like comforting flannel pajamas on a cold winters night. Ahhh.

I was just mentioning this time I didn't happen to say anything directly mean. Anyways, that's completely off the topic at hand.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
I do wear my bitchiness with pride. It's like comforting flannel pajamas on a cold winters night. Ahhh.

I was just mentioning this time I didn't happen to say anything directly mean. Anyways, that's completely off the topic at hand.

You did not say anything mean...this time. However, I have noticed a tendency of ToK's to jump in when someone disagrees with you and vice versa. Not that defending your S.O. is wrong or anything but really, you are quite capable of doing so yourself. And so is he. Other than that your bitchiness amuses me most of the time.

[Satira]

I think he just tends to insult the people. And actually we agree on most things, so we usually have the same opinion.

Generally I do a pretty good job of handling things myself.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Generally I do a pretty good job of handling things myself.

Preaching to the choir, babe.

Now back on topic: Grunge is dead? I need to pay more attention.

[Ambrosia]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Those are all facts.

The problem was the police assumed shit before they even looked into it, because he was a drug addict. To go back and say, uh well we didn't really think to do it, would make them look stupid.

If I remember correctly, Police Officers treat everything as a homicide, then a suicide, then natural causes. So they wouldn't have blamed it on suicide until after they ruled out homicide.

I could be wrong, I only spent 2 years in C.J.

[Satira]

Even the report on tv said the other day they walked in and were like "SUICIDE!"

Hey, I could be wrong.

I'm just saying theres a lot of strange evidence they're ignoring.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint

Now back on topic: Grunge is dead? I need to pay more attention.

I think we're back to my original question to you. It had nothing to do with defending Satira, it was asking you exactly why you care about this topic when your musical tastes obviously lie elsewhere.

[Mint]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Mint

Now back on topic: Grunge is dead? I need to pay more attention.

I think we're back to my original question to you. It had nothing to do with defending Satira, it was asking you exactly why you care about this topic when your musical tastes obviously lie elsewhere.

No, it was an attempt to derail. Satira and I were having a nice little debate and you jumped in with an insult to me.

I suppose I will have to preface all my posts with HUMOR ALERT so you will know when I am joking. Because I do not listen to a particular genre of music as entertainment does not mean I was ignorant of Cobains death and the controversy surrounding it. Assuming I am is ignorance on your part

Really, work on that sense of humor btw.




[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Mint]

[Satira]

Basically he insults anything that walks. Really doesn't have to do with me. ANYWAYS...

Yeah grunge is dead. When is the last time you heard anything really GRUNGY? Probably 1994. Now it's all this yelling screaming metal crap or its pop rock, that they play on MTV.

Even MTV2 sucks now.

[Nakiro]

Both of you chill out.

Yes, it was obviously a homocide. No, the police will never reopen the case.

Didn't you learn anything from O.J. Simpson case? The police fucked up their investigation there, and as a result 90% of the evidence was considered contaminated and couldn't be used against O.J.

The same thing basically happened with Curt.

[Satira]

Hooray for Nakiro!!!

[Mint]

Originally posted by Nakiro
Both of you chill out.

Yes, it was obviously a homocide. No, the police will never reopen the case.

Didn't you learn anything from O.J. Simpson case? The police fucked up their investigation there, and as a result 90% of the evidence was considered contaminated and couldn't be used against O.J.

The same thing basically happened with Curt.

The problem with this is Cobain's death was never a 'case'. It never went to trial. She was never charged. Quite different from OJ. Once again: if the evidence was so compelling why is this? All cops and investigators are not bumbling fools.


[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Mint]

[peam]

I think the guy who authors that website is probably one who's big on tin toil and black helicopters.

[Meos]

None of us were there, we didn't see the evidence.

If you ever read his suicide note, I that was enough to convince me it was suicide.

I agree with Mint though, you have to take that website, and the ideas he has in them with a grain of salt. You can twist almost anything into the shape you want it to be in. Some things about the case are fishy I admit, but this guy uses them to gain fame for himself most likely. Cobain was depressed one way or another, what to depressed people want to do? Answer, blow out their brains. Either way, Rest in Peace.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Obviously he didn't kill himself.Police aren't stupid. If it was so obvious, there would have been an investigation. I don't see how anyone can listen to the guy's music and not think he was suicidal.

I am curious about your idea that everything today is pop rock. I personally never considered certain artists rock, for instance Britney Spears or Snoop.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Meos
If you ever read his suicide note, I that was enough to convince me it was suicide.


It all depends on which light you read it in. If you already think he killed himself, and read the note, then obviously it is going to sound like a suicide note. However, if you know that Cobain was fed up with fame and the way his music was being interpreted (is that really a reason to kill oneself?), then it sounds like a letter to his fans that he was quitting the music business.

[Meos]

"For Frances,
For her life which will be so much happier without me,
I love you I love you"

[Mint]

Originally posted by Meos
"For Frances,
For her life which will be so much happier without me,
I love you I love you"

I think the guy pushing the theory that Cobain was killed tried to insinuate that the handwriting of the portion you quote was questionable. What disturbs me is he also tried to pretend sympathy for the child:

1. If Cobain injected himself with a deliberate heroin overdose, why would he ALSO shoot himself in the head with a shotgun, leaving his baby daughter - the love of his life - with horrific visual images to remember him by? Why not just "go to sleep" on the overdose and never wake up?

Never mind that he is doing everything he can to malign the mother of this child publicly to make a buck. He is such a doofus.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint
I suppose I will have to preface all my posts with HUMOR ALERT so you will know when I am joking. Because I do not listen to a particular genre of music as entertainment does not mean I was ignorant of Cobains death and the controversy surrounding it. Assuming I am is ignorance on your part.

Okay, Mint, if you insist. Here we go.



I think the guy who has been pushing the theory for so long is full of crap frankly. I think he just wants a bit of fame and sees this theory as his ticket. He needs to STFU and quit maligning someone that has not been charged.

While that can be said about Ian Halperin and Max Wallace, who have written two books together about the subject, I don't believe the same can be said about Tom Grant. By 'the guy', I assume you're referring to Mr. Grant, the man who's web site I posted. He was a private investigator, hired by COURTNEY LOVE herself to find her husband. During his investigation, he found many inconsistancies that lead him to believe there was foul play. You immediately show your ignorance because none of the above mentioned have EVER directly said, "Courtney Love killed Kurt Cobain."



If it was so cut and dried why do you suppose she was never arrested (for that anyway) or charged with his murder hmm?

Once again, not one of these people have said Courtney Love was guilty. They merely say it was a murder because of the evidence they see.



I don't suppose it had anything to do with this guy lying in order to make a buck by smearing her...

Geez, I'm getting tired of this. First of all, they're taking the facts of the case and what was found at the crime scene by the Seattle Police Department and saying, "Hmm, something doesn't seem right." In no way are they lying, or smearing Courtney Love (directly). I'm sure the two authors have made a few dollars off of it, however. Their motivation? Who knows, but I believe Tom Grant's motivation is much more sincere considering Kurt Cobain died while he was in the process of trying to find him.



Who's facts though? You can twist just about anything to suit your own theories if you try hard enough. There is no statute of limitations on murder. Since she was not charged it leads me to believe that the evidence was not as compelling as this person would have us believe.

Who's facts? The Seattle PD.

Fact #1) Autopsy showed he had over three times a LETHAL dose of heroin at the time of his death, also traces of another drug in his system - vicoden, I think. Can't remember.

Fact #2) The drug kit was found neatly put away near his body, none of his prints were found on it.

Fact #3) No prints of Cobain's were found on the pen used to write the suicide letter.

Fact #4) No prints of Cobain's were found on the shotgun, or the case of shells found by his body.

Many handwriting experts have also said that the writing at the beginning of the note, and the writing at the end which says:

"Please keep going Courtney
for Frances
for her life which will be so much happier
without me. I Love you. I love you!"

Does not match. Some have argued that it doesn't match because by the time he was finishing the note, he could have already been injected with the heroin which would have effected his handwriting.

So are we to believe he began writing the note, stopped to inject himself with that much heroin and put the kit away. Then procede to finish the note, pick up a shotgun and then blow his head off? No, heroin users who inject it into their veins are immediately incapacitated. Especially so with the amount he used. Which raises another question, if you're going to inject such a lethal dose, why shoot yourself as well, leaving a gruesome remembrance for your only daughter?



No, the investigators do not always get it right, however, if the evidence was as damn compelling and overwhelming as this guy would have you believe then even a completely incompetent investigator would have figured it out.

As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, investigators normally treat things as a homocide, suicide, and then natural causes. I don't believe this to be the way it was handled with Kurt Cobain. They walked in, found a rock star -- a druggie -- dead of an apparent self inflicted gun shot. Case closed.

Everything pointing to Courtney Love is circumstancial evidence, which is why no one has ever directly came out and implicated her. Believe what you want to about it, because no one other than Kurt Cobain will know for sure. These people merely maintain that it seems rather impossible that he managed to shoot himself.

In conclusion, Mint, although I didn't preface my original comment to you about TNN and Spike TV with "HUMOR ALERT," I hope you can now find my lighthearted intentions. I was merely pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this. In fact, I find it hard to believe that you even knew Kurt Cobain was dead until you happened to be watching Dateline that night.

[Latrinsorm]

It's kind of snobbish to say that the police are incompetent while the private investigator finds the real facts.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
It's kind of snobbish to say that the police are incompetent while the private investigator finds the real facts.

I said the police found all the facts I listed, I just said that they assumed suicide too quickly. We've had 10 years now to look over all the facts of the case, and they wrapped it up in what? A day?

[Mint]

<<Fact #1) Autopsy showed he had over three times a LETHAL dose of heroin at the time of his death, also traces of another drug in his system - vicoden, I think. Can't remember.>>

Drug addicts become resistant to their drug of choice. And why you capitalize lethal is beyond me...of course it was a lethal dose...he wanted to DIE.

<<Many handwriting experts have also said that the writing at the beginning of the note, and the writing at the end which says:

"Please keep going Courtney
for Frances
for her life which will be so much happier
without me. I Love you. I love you!"

Does not match.>>

Grant had the handwriting analyzed twice within days of Cobains death. With two different results. The police showed the note to his mother among others as well as having it analyzed themselves by an expert in fingerprint analysis. Conclusion? He wrote it himself.

<<As someone pointed out earlier in the thread, investigators normally treat things as a homocide, suicide, and then natural causes. I don't believe this to be the way it was handled with Kurt Cobain. They walked in, found a rock star -- a druggie -- dead of an apparent self inflicted gun shot. Case closed.>>

Perhaps you should read the actual police reports, medical examination reports, interview reports etc before making such a baseless conclusion. You can find the photostats of all at:
http://www.coderedonearth.com/pru1.htm

I mean really, do you really believe that Courtney Love is the kind of person anyone, let alone a police department would want to cover up a murder for?

<<Everything pointing to Courtney Love is circumstancial evidence, which is why no one has ever directly came out and implicated her. >>

Lots of people have been sent to prison and even to death row based solely on such evidence

<<I hope you can now find my lighthearted intentions. I was merely pointing out that you have no idea what you're talking about when it comes to this. In fact, I find it hard to believe that you even knew Kurt Cobain was dead until you happened to be watching Dateline that night.>>

I lived in Seattle at the time of his death. I don't think think anyone that lived here at the time and were old enough to understand could have missed it. I certainly did not.

[Mint]

Another thing: Courtney Love was in California at the time of Cobains death.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint
Drug addicts become resistant to their drug of choice. And why you capitalize lethal is beyond me...of course it was a lethal dose...he wanted to DIE.

It's capitalized because it's a lot of fucking heroin. I don't care how much of a tolerance you've build up, you aren't going to be skipping around a room with that much in your system just because you've done heroin for a while. "He wanted to DIE."? Unless you knew Kurt Cobain, to make that claim is outrageous.



Grant had the handwriting analyzed twice within days of Cobains death. With two different results. The police showed the note to his mother among others as well as having it analyzed themselves by an expert in fingerprint analysis. Conclusion? He wrote it himself.

Yes, he wrote the note himself. Did I say he never wrote it? Has anyone? No. The last four or fives lines are in question. There have been at least five different HANDWRITING experts who have analzyed the note and are split on whether or not the last lines match the rest of the note.



I mean really, do you really believe that Courtney Love is the kind of person anyone, let alone a police department would want to cover up a murder for?

Lots of people have been sent to prison and even to death row based solely on such evidence

Another thing: Courtney Love was in California at the time of Cobains death.

Will you please tell me ONCE where ANYONE said that Courtney Love killed Kurt Cobain? We're not saying she pulled the trigger herself, get it through your thick skull. We're saying that there are circumstances surrounding his death that support that it was not just a clear cut case of suicide.

[Mint]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
[quote]

Will you please tell me ONCE where ANYONE said that Courtney Love killed Kurt Cobain? We're not saying she pulled the trigger herself, get it through your thick skull. We're saying that there are circumstances surrounding his death that support that it was not just a clear cut case of suicide.

Uh your SO, Satira, said just that in this very thread.

And so did Grant. From the website you listed:

After several months of intensive investigation, including dozens of taped interviews with Cobain's closest friends and family members, I reached the conclusion that Courtney Love and Michael Dewitt, (the male nanny who lived at the Cobain residence), were involved in a conspiracy that resulted in the murder of Kurt Cobain.

[Satira]

Um I think she was responsible for it, yes. I don't think she was there when it happened.

Could you kindly leave me out of this arguement? I'd hate to tag team you.

[Mint]

Originally posted by Lady Satira
Um I think she was responsible for it, yes. I don't think she was there when it happened.

Could you kindly leave me out of this arguement? I'd hate to tag team you.

Heh, I'd hate it too.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
[quote]

Will you please tell me ONCE where ANYONE said that Courtney Love killed Kurt Cobain? We're not saying she pulled the trigger herself, get it through your thick skull. We're saying that there are circumstances surrounding his death that support that it was not just a clear cut case of suicide.

Uh your SO, Satira, said just that in this very thread.

And so did Grant. From the website you listed:

After several months of intensive investigation, including dozens of taped interviews with Cobain's closest friends and family members, I reached the conclusion that Courtney Love and Michael Dewitt, (the male nanny who lived at the Cobain residence), were involved in a conspiracy that resulted in the murder of Kurt Cobain.

Those are two personal conclusions surrounding the evidence of the case. They're free to believe whatever they want. Satira believes Courtney is somehow involved. You are hung up on the fact that they think Courtney Love killed Kurt HERSELF, with your statements such as "Courtney was in California during the time he was killed." Which is not what they believe. What is true is that with all the mystery and unanswered questions surrounding his death, it is irresponsible to think you know conclusively that it was a suicide.

[Mint]

You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter. Just like you. Calling me names is not inducive to getting me to shut up and go away which seems to be your intent.

Once again, read the actual police reports, medical examination reports, interviews etc that went on. You stated they wrapped this up in like a day. Couldn't be further from the truth.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint
You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter. Just like you. Calling me names is not inducive to getting me to shut up and go away which seems to be your intent.


Don't have an opinion on the matter? The don't post in this thread in the first place. Problem solved.

[Mint]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Mint
You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter. Just like you. Calling me names is not inducive to getting me to shut up and go away which seems to be your intent.


Don't have an opinion on the matter? The don't post in this thread in the first place. Problem solved.

Can you read?

[Satira]

Latrinsorm, I'm sorry I wasn't very clear about what I meant when I said everything today is pop rock. I was basically talking about what people consider to be grunge today. None of it is actual grunge, it's pop rock.

Britney Spears has a catagory of her own.

[TheEschaton]

Britney Spears has a catagory of her own.

It's called "crap".

[Sean]

Orrr we can accept the fact that this is treading beyond a "friendly" discussion and accept that neither side will conceed to the other and discuss his music, how he influenced people, the impact he had on the music industry, etc. Not saying you can't keep going on. Just saying as an outside observed the back and forth jabs have really killed the momentum of this thread.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Mint
You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter. Just like you. Calling me names is not inducive to getting me to shut up and go away which seems to be your intent.


Don't have an opinion on the matter? The don't post in this thread in the first place. Problem solved.

Can you read?

Yes, I can, in fact, read. So you're insulted that I call you names but I'm just supposed to laugh off your comments like this? Go fuck yourself, Mint. How about expressing yourself clearly?


You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter.

Implying that you DON'T.

[Suppa Hobbit Mage]

I just think you are an asshole. Does that count as an opinion?

[Mint]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Mint

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Mint
You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter. Just like you. Calling me names is not inducive to getting me to shut up and go away which seems to be your intent.


Don't have an opinion on the matter? The don't post in this thread in the first place. Problem solved.

Can you read?

Yes, I can, in fact, read. So you're insulted that I call you names but I'm just supposed to laugh off your comments like this? Go fuck yourself, Mint. How about expressing yourself clearly?


You seem to be real hung up on the fact that I have an opinion in this matter.

Implying that you DON'T.

How is me stating that I have an opinion implying I do not? You're the one acting as though I've no right to have one.

And you are the one that seems to have made this issue an attack on me personally it seems.

[Satira]

I love everyone. Lets not fight. WHITE FLAG! WHITE FLAG!

[TheEschaton]

WHITE FLAG! WHITE FLAG!

What are you....racist? ;)


-TheE-

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
I said the police found all the facts I listed, I just said that they assumed suicide too quickly. We've had 10 years now to look over all the facts of the case, and they wrapped it up in what? A day?I don't think it's unusual if a professional carpenter can build a picnic table faster than I can, as I'm not a professional or even an amateur carpenter.
Originally posted by Lady Satira
Latrinsorm, I'm sorry I wasn't very clear about what I meant when I said everything today is pop rock. I was basically talking about what people consider to be grunge today. None of it is actual grunge, it's pop rock. Oh. Ok, that makes more sense.

[Satira]

Hahahaa... no if I was racist I would have said WHITE SHEET WHITE SHEET.

Damn, I'm so scared of the KKK.

[Hanksbane]

It's really hard to say if Kurt Cobain realy "wanted to die." Unless you are Kurt himself. You can ask his closest friends and family that question and I'm pretty sure you'd get different answers and still not know how Kurt felt.

Some of you will say, "Listen or read his lyrics, he totaly wanted to die." Well, to that I would agree and disagree.

I wrote a lot of songs during the latter half of the 90's. If you ask the people who read them or heard me sing them, many of them would say that I wanted to die as well. In fact a few of my friends came up to me, sat me down and asked me if I was alright and pointed out my lyrics. I suppose at the moment I wrote those lyrics I did, but it was just a passing emotion. The reason Nirvana's music struck a chord with me and a lot of people during that era was because we connected with those feelings. And feelings come and go. Did I really want to die? No. Did the thought cross my mind? Yup. For about a second or two. Kinda like when you get really pissed off and you just wanna pummel someone to within an inch of his life. You think about it, but you don't really do it. (Well hopefully most of you don't ) :grin:

Sadness is a comon theme in a lot of people's writing, I found it easier to sing sad songs then happy songs. O just because I sang al sad and stuff didn't mean that I was sad all the time. None of us knew Kurt personally, well Im guessing at least a alot of us didn't, I don't wanna assume that I know all of you and who you know, so we wouldn't really know how he was like. I'm not saying he never thought about it, it's apparent he did. But, did he really wanna die? Maybe, maybe not.

Okay Im rambling, point is, the only person who truly knew if Kurt wanted to die, was him.

Archevald


Oh one more thing, if you have a friend that does write about suicide and stuff, please by all means talk to him/her. Just because I didn't doesn't mean they aren't. I for one am glad my friends took me aside and talked to me about it. It was nice to know that someone cared that much.

[Lord Deprav]

I am one of the biggest fans of Kurt Cobain. Thank you for this nice tribute. I have spent quite a bit of my interest studying his life. From his messed up family to the days where he was living on the streets and than his small following in Seatle. His dealing with drugs and his success. I think he is one of the most interesting people. At least for the time I have lived, he has been very interesting. I love his music more than anything. I has inspired me in the way I think about things.

Want to listen to an album, listen to unplugged and you will understand how such greatness comes to and end. In the music video "Whered you sleep last night?", if you look into his eyes right after he says "I will shiver, the whole". You can tell his duty on this earth as a revolutionary person is through.

Just for the record, I am so truely happy that "You know your right" was released. It was the true end of his legacy. The media told him for years his music was no good and it was bad for kids to listen too. Look at what music has become today? The Beatles, revolutionary. Elvis Presley, revolutionary. Nirvana Revolutionary.

I'll leave you with a few quotes.

"I laughed and shook his hand. Made my way but calm. I searched far, far lands. Years and years I roamed."

"I must have died alone, along long time ago"

"I'll start this off without any words. Got so high, I scratched till I bled. I love myself better than you. I know its wrong but what should I do."

"Jesus don't want me for a sunbeam. Sunbeams are never made like me"

"I am not like them. I can pretend. The sun is gone, but I have a light. The day is dawn, but I am having fun. I think I am dumb. Maybe just happy."

And finally:

"What else should I be? All appolgies. What else could I say? Everyone is gay. What else could I write? I don't have a right."

My personal favorite lyrics!

Thanks,
Deprav

Kurt Donaly Cobain Febuary 20, 1967 - April 5th 1994. "Vandalism is as beautiful as spitting in a cops face"

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Lord Deprav]

[Lord Deprav]

Also, Layne Staley, the great Alice in Chains lead singer and part song writer down 2 years ago on the same day. People always said he was hidden behind Kurt Cobain. He died 8 years later after Kurt did on a drug overdose.

"We chase misprinted lies
we face the path of time
and yet i fight
this battle all alone
no one to cry to
no place to call home"

Thanks Layne. You will also be missed.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Lord Deprav]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Deprav, you do realize that most of the lyrics you posted were from cover songs that Nirvana performed, right?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Lord Deprav
listen to unplugged and you will understand how such greatness comes to and end.Hey, about that, was I the only one confused when he was using sheet music during that show?

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Hey, about that, was I the only one confused when he was using sheet music during that show?

Probably. He performed a lot of covers, as I said a few posts ago. Layne Staley used sheet music during the Alice In Chains unplugged, and they performed all their own songs. Wouldn't that be more confusing?

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Probably. He performed a lot of covers, as I said a few posts ago. Layne Staley used sheet music during the Alice In Chains unplugged, and they performed all their own songs. Wouldn't that be more confusing? Haven't seen any unpluggeds besides Nirvana and "Neil Diamond", but yeah, it would.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
Deprav, you do realize that most of the lyrics you posted were from cover songs that Nirvana performed, right?

Yes, I realize that the Leadbetters, Bowie, and Meat Puppets wrote that music. The only one that ever was big though was "Man that sold the world". I don't know I was just thinkin about watching that Unplugged video the day before and how they way he sung and the lyrics were so perfect.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom

Originally posted by Latrinsorm
Hey, about that, was I the only one confused when he was using sheet music during that show?

Probably. He performed a lot of covers, as I said a few posts ago. Layne Staley used sheet music during the Alice In Chains unplugged, and they performed all their own songs. Wouldn't that be more confusing?

Staley couldn't remember the lyrics to most of his songs. My buddy has Pearl Jam and AIC unplugged on tape (not professional) and AIC had to restart songs multiple times because he forgot the lyrics. One of was so funny. He was singing and started mumbling and said "I fucked it up again."

Deprav

[Lord Deprav]

Just to conclude also the arguement earlier, he did kill himself. Very well proven. The 8 times amount of heroin...whatever. He tryed to kill himself right before they did unplugged and he was 3x over the limit and tryed killin himself then. (3 months earlier) He wasn't happy. Courtney was in rehab at the time. She had talked to someone a while back about killing him, but she never had the finances. And lets be truely serious, why would she want him dead if she had any sense? He wrote her music and made her popular. Without him she would be nothing.

Deprav

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Lord Deprav
Just to conclude also the arguement earlier, he did kill himself. Very well proven. The 8 times amount of heroin...whatever. He tryed to kill himself right before they did unplugged and he was 3x over the limit and tryed killin himself then. (3 months earlier) He wasn't happy. Courtney was in rehab at the time. She had talked to someone a while back about killing him, but she never had the finances. And lets be truely serious, why would she want him dead if she had any sense? He wrote her music and made her popular. Without him she would be nothing.


Then why did she insist on signing a prenuptual agreement at the time when her band was more popular than Nirvana? You're making as many presumptuions about him as Mint did when she said he wanted to die. He was unhappy with the limelight, yes. But suicidal? YOU cannot say for sure. And to say that his suicide is very well proven is ridiculous, when it is one of the most controversial celebrity deaths in the last 30 years.

You aren't "concluding" any arguments, you're offering your opinion.

[Lord Deprav]

I am offering my knowledge. There is no oppinion on this. Simply he has trying killing himself before. This time he was successful. Those pictures they have, I don't believe for a second. Now that is my oppinion.

I don't even understand how there is a debate about this. The man didn't like his life, so he ended it. He had been sick for a while.

Ps The other kingdom, Go Wood and Prior! Cubs are going this year!

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Lord Deprav]

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Lord Deprav
I am offering my knowledge. There is no oppinion on this. Simply he has trying killing himself before. This time he was successful. Those pictures they have, I don't believe for a second. Now that is my oppinion.

I don't even understand how there is a debate about this. The man didn't like his life, so he ended it. He had been sick for a while.


How do you know his overdose earlier was an attempted suicide? You don't. Rock stars OD all the time, does that mean every time it's an attempt on their life?

There is debate about this because the autopsy revealed he was 3 times over a lethal dose of heroin. Which leads some people to believe he would have been too incapacitated to put away his drug kit, finish off the last few lines in the note, and then pick up a shotgun and shoot himself in the head.

Yes, frequent users build up a tolerance. Which would explain such a high dose of heroin. But he isn't immune to the effects, he still would have been just as out of it as a first time user with a small dose of heroin.

Secondly, yes, there were things about his life he didn't like -- but who doesn't? He was unhappy with his fame, by why kill himself over that? He had a daughter. He was a sensitive person, not the typical "sex, drugs, rock and roll" rock star. You seem to have read some of his biographies, since you vaguely referenced his stomach problems. I suggest you go back and read the note that was left by him. It was not about death, it was a letter to his fans that he was leaving the music business.

Even in interviews shortly before his death, he was speaking of how much of a change his music was going to make and he didn't care who he alienated. He sounded optimistic, not depressed and suicidal. I think he was leaving Nirvana behind.

I don't know how he died, I don't know who was involved. Could it have been a suicide? Possibly. But to question why this is debatable is just so silly. There are too many unanswered questions for anyone to know for sure.

Go Cubs! Game #2 startin' in an hour.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by ThisOtherKingdom]

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
He sounded optimistic, not depressed and suicidal.From what I hear, people who have been depressed a long time and suddenly seem alright are the most dangerous in terms of suicide. It could mean they've finally decided to kill themselves and, in their minds, everything else is gravy.

[Lord Deprav]

That is what you percieve from it. What I percieve is that he is leaving the world. His suicide letter is one of the most interesting pieces I have ever read. The fact that he can change is emotions within a word or two. He tells the world how he doesnt like what he has done for the last several years. He is not worthy of his fans. Depressed at this point of what he is doing. Then he changed over to how happy he become from his daughter being born and how he loves people. He loves people because he can relate to some people. The people he knows and are his friends he cannot relate to. They haven't had the same life he has. But he knows theres people out there. He knows theres people with a daughter like his who feels the same way about them. Kurt then says he has hated people since he was a mere 7 which I have read thousands of times before. He always felt rejected by others. Friends (of family), Neighbors, and relatives. This has lots to do with his stomach problem. Now was this a problem or a falicy? Perhaps he wanted attention. But that doesnt matter. That is a whole different discussion. At the end of the letter he tells Courtney to give Frances the life she deserves. But the irony is, earlier in the letter he talks about Frances cannot be hurt by anyone. He truely knows only Courtney could hurt her. What and how Courtney presents herself will be the outcome of how Frances will develop.

"Even in interviews shortly before his death, he was speaking of how much of a change his music was going to make and he didn't care who he alienated. He sounded optimistic, not depressed and suicidal. I think he was leaving Nirvana behind. "

Personally, I think Kurt lived for Nirvana. I think he truely had a bad drug addiction. And after he had a baby girl, he couldn't live with himself. He couldn't let his daughter see what his dad was. Was Kurt Cobain a good role model? Not in my oppinion. He was a smart person who knew how to hypnotize people with his emotional lyrics.

Deprav

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Latrinsorm

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
He sounded optimistic, not depressed and suicidal.From what I hear, people who have been depressed a long time and suddenly seem alright are the most dangerous in terms of suicide. It could mean they've finally decided to kill themselves and, in their minds, everything else is gravy.

Without a doubt.

[Galleazzo]

No one knew shit from Nirvana before Cobain offed himself, and no one would remember shit about it if he hadn't. It was all in the death hype.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
No one knew shit from Nirvana before Cobain offed himself, and no one would remember shit about it if he hadn't. It was all in the death hype.

Actually, that statement is ridiculous. Nevermind was one of the biggest selling album in the first month it was released. All the concerts in Europe and Australia sold out before that album was even released. They sold out the mass majority of shows on the west coast after the album came out. Nirvana was the biggest thing before his death. Every other day there was something in the tabloids about them somewhere on this earth.

Deprav

I love that song jeremy they did.

[Satira]

Originally posted by RangerD1
I love that song jeremy they did.

:lol:

[Galleazzo]

Who gives a shit what they did in Europe or Australia? And sold out all the shows on the west coast ..... yeah, like any of us were at the ticket booths to check on that.

Before Cobain died they had albums that spent all of 3 weeks at #1 in 5 years. AFTER Cobain died is when they got American Music Awards and Grammies and MTV Awards. Before he died Pearl Jam was getting those awards, and only in 1993 did Nirvana crack the top 200 singles chart for the year. After Cobain died they jumped 100 places on that list.

[Lord Deprav]

Originally posted by Galleazzo
Who gives a shit what they did in Europe or Australia? And sold out all the shows on the west coast ..... yeah, like any of us were at the ticket booths to check on that.

Before Cobain died they had albums that spent all of 3 weeks at #1 in 5 years. AFTER Cobain died is when they got American Music Awards and Grammies and MTV Awards. Before he died Pearl Jam was getting those awards, and only in 1993 did Nirvana crack the top 200 singles chart for the year. After Cobain died they jumped 100 places on that list.

Billboards are the stupidest thing in the world. Who decides who belongs on the billboards anyways? Music scholars? I am merely going by the records sales and concerts sales. And yes I truely did listen to Nirvana before they died. Now I was younger at the time, so I did have some restrictions on shows I could go to. But who cares, because I spent 36 bucks on bleach, nevermind, incesticide. You are truely making a generalization. I am guessing you live on a farm.

Deprav

[Galleazzo]

I live in Boston.

Sorry the facts are inconvenient, like, guy, but fact of the matter is the charts went by record sales and airplay, and there were grunge bands bigger than Nirvana before Cobain croaked. They were the ones topping the charts and winning the awards and shit. I get you're a fanboy and that's cool, and ain't no reason you can't enjoy the music, but still.

[peam]

Galleazzo's argument can be summed up in a neat little package:

Before he died, the people who knew what was up were listening to and appreciating the band. After he died, a bunch of shitheads got ahold of the material, due to media frenzy.

[Lord Deprav]

No arguement on that a great following occurred after his death. But honestly, I don't know if they were fans or not. You don't have to buy a record to be a fan. You do not have to go to a show to be a fan. I am not sure what others bands were on the charts. The only bands that I can remember that were comparible with Nirvana at the time were Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Alice in Chains, Mudhoney, STP, Smashing Pumpkins, and Blind Melon. I know there were lots more grunge bands out there, but none that I can think of would have even touched the billboard charts. Bands like the Screaming Trees, Melvins, Babes in Toyland. Then again some bands like SilverChair, Temply of a Dog (not till later got radio play), Sonic Youth, Meatpuppets and Seven Mary Three have had hits but I never thought they were that big. At least not bigger than the first few I named.

Deprav