This Ticks me off

hmm..... Got this in the mail was sent out this morning I believe

would just like to pass on to all concerned. Today, here at KIRKUK AB, Iraq, we were told that we were no longer allowed to fly the United States flag. The reason we were given is so we would not offend the Iraqi people. We were told that we are not occupying this country! And apparently we are not in charge. Well, my question is this. If we are not in charge, then who is? Obviously, the Iraqi people are not. The Iraqi people do not run any of these bases over here yet, and may not for quite some time. We at KIRKUK AB, Fire Dept have up to today, both Post and Retire the colors every day. Today in a show of respect and honor especially for those who have fallen, we disobeyed the order and raised our flag, but less than an hour later we were Ordered to take our flag down. The moral here is low, but our mission remains in focus. It is a slap in the face of those families back home who have lost a loved ones. It is also a slap in the face for those who still remain here, not only protecting our people back home, but trying to make a difference here in the pursuit of freedom for the Iraqi people. I would appreciate the widest dissemination of this message. If we are to fly the Iraqi flag with our flag then so be it. But don't tell us that cant show the respect for our flag, when so many have died in the name of Freedom. The only people I think who would be offended, are the people who kill innocent women and children in the name of religion. Thank you for your support and prayers.

Samuel D. Arbuckle, TSgt, USAFR
506 ECES/CEF
FREEDOM AB
KIRKUK, IRAQ
DSN(318)460-0030

From: Talley Chuck CMSgt 506 AEG/CCC
Sent: Thursday, February 05, 2004 5:11 PM
To: Roznovsky Franklin SMSgt 355 AMXS
Cc: 506 AEG FSGT's; 506 AEG CHIEFS
Subject: RE: Flying of US Flag

All outside US flags need to come down per CENTAF guidance. Col Gibson is taking this back to CENTAF. Inside flags are good, Chief T

We are allowed to put the flag up for special days or events, but we can't have it up all the time implying that we are occupying Iraq. Chief T



Sir, When we carry the bodies of our fallen men and women to the aircraft for their final flight home, can we still drape the coffins with our flag, or will that still offend the people that we are dying for so they can be liberated.

MSgt, W. Dalton



CHIEF
Harold S. Bromell, CMSgt, USAF
1 OG/CEM
Langley AFB, VA 23665-2789
(DSN 574-1927/2912
(Comm (757) 764-1927/2912
FAX 574-7459
+harold.bromell@langley.af.mil



Have A Nice Day

[Latrinsorm]

Americans are human. They can be really, really stupid. And before anyone gets all uppity with me, "The only people I think who would be offended, are the people who kill innocent women and children in the name of religion." is a very stupid statement.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Newsflash, it's not our fucking country.

[Hulkein]

So no one from other countries can put a flag up here?

I personally think it's somewhat smart to not have the flag on a 60 foot pole in Iraq, but that argument is STUPID.

[ThisOtherKingdom]

Originally posted by Hulkein
So no one from other countries can put a flag up here?

I personally think it's somewhat smart to not have the flag on a 60 foot pole in Iraq, but that argument is STUPID.

That was in response to the person who wrote the letter. His reasoning was stupid. "We're in control of their country now, so we have every right to wave our flag." Put the American flag anywhere you want to, but to think we're able to fly it because their country is now in some sick way OUR country is ridiculous. So why exactly did we go over there now? There's been so many reasons, I forget which one is current.

[Hulkein]

I thought your comment was directed at Edine for getting upset over it.

[Sean]

I'm a bit torn. The negative to this for me is the fact that its damaging morale. On the other side I think it shows the beginning of a transition to giving Iraq back to Iraq.

my biggest issue is the morale, as well as we should be allowed to have the flag wherever our forces are.
And not being overthere TOK, it is hard to put yourself in the position of the troops that are on the ground getting shot at every day.

[ElanthianSiren]

We should never have been in Iraq in the first place. Don't miss that fact. They never found proof for us to have EVEN been there, though that was all sloughed off as an "intelligence mishap."

On the same hand, the desire for our flag not to be flown there doesn't reflect a growing democracy fostering in the great shadow of the eagle much, does it?

It's not our country. We never should have been there. I'm damn proud of every US soldier who went there and served under the false pretense of a vast military threat. Those lost to the war should be lain out in the states, full dress, flags everywhere, but with Iraq's current state, and the fact that they DON'T WANT us there, I have to go with Hulkein and say waving an American flag 60 feet up, probably isn't very smart nor respectful nor warranted.

-Melissa

[Sean]

Personally I think theres a difference between supporting the war and supporting our troops. They didn't decide we were going to war they just did their duty. It's got to be tough to be overseas away from your friends, loved ones, and everything you've grown used to. If removing the flags is demoralizing to them I do feel for them even if I don't want them to be there.

[Artha]

We should never have been in Iraq in the first place. Don't miss that fact.

I disagree. I don't care how the Administration justified it, I think it was a good call on purely strategic and humanitarian causes. I'm sure everyone's heard of all the nasty stuff that could happen to you there, so I won't even bother.

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by ThisOtherKingdom
So why exactly did we go over there now? There's been so many reasons, I forget which one is current.

One word: Oil.

Two words: Family feud.

Of course we're not there for the oil. Never the US, the most oil consuming nation in the world. Please... give me a break. Intelligence admits it screwed up conveniently after the war is over, but now we're NEEDED there to stabilize things. It's just too convenient to the point of nausea.

-Melissa

[ElanthianSiren]

Originally posted by Artha

We should never have been in Iraq in the first place. Don't miss that fact.

I disagree. I don't care how the Administration justified it, I think it was a good call on purely strategic and humanitarian causes. I'm sure everyone's heard of all the nasty stuff that could happen to you there, so I won't even bother.

That sets a dangerous precident. So you think that no matter how an administration justifies something, we should be able to go to war with whatever country we feel like? -Even when it's living up to its agreements with the UN (to the point that we get mad at the UN for not agreeing and throw a temper tantrum ala George Bush Jr. and walk out?)? You think we should just be able to attack countries at will? I think you're reading too much propaganda. Iraq is not Afghanistan. While unfortunate things happen in Iraq, they do everywhere else as well, and as Iraq had not engaged the United States, the entire war sets a precident of the first time the US willingly and knowingly attacked a non-engaging country.

That's dangerous, and we wonder why other countries hate us.


Originally posted by Tijay
Personally I think theres a difference between supporting the war and supporting our troops. They didn't decide we were going to war they just did their duty. It's got to be tough to be overseas away from your friends, loved ones, and everything you've grown used to. If removing the flags is demoralizing to them I do feel for them even if I don't want them to be there.

I totally agree. It is very demoralizing, which is why within bunks, within buildings, fly the American flag as high as you like and put up many of them, but waving them atop a flagpole in a country that doesn't want us there and has become increasingly resentful of our presence is a way to get yourself bombed.


-Melissa

[Warriorbird]

We're there to get troops out of Saudi Arabia, get a foothold somewhere else, AND finish off Saddam.

Originally posted by ElanthianSiren
You think we should just be able to attack countries at will? I think you're reading too much propaganda. Iraq is not Afghanistan. While unfortunate things happen in Iraq, they do everywhere else as well, and as Iraq had not engaged the United States, the entire war sets a precident of the first time the US willingly and knowingly attacked a non-engaging country.
-Melissa

Well there is one problem with that comment, the Iraqi Military has been taking daily shots at our planes that patrol the No Fly Zone since the end of the Iraq war I

[Hulkein]

If we cared about oil that much we'd drill in Alaska. This wasn't 'for' oil. Yes, there is oil there, yes they knew that. All the oil does is play the role of the icing on the cake.

[Edaarin]

So many political obstacles to drilling any significant amount in Alaska...the reserves over there are a fraction of what's available in the Middle East, anyway. They'd probably last at most a decade.

[Hulkein]

I'm pretty sure Bush has more to lose by invading a country then by cutting red tape and drilling in Alaska. Not to mention we won't see any oil perks from Iraq for around 10 years anyway. It wasn't for oil.

[Celexei]

Alright, i'm very torn on this whole post, i'm a pacifist personally, and i don't think we should have went over there without strict purpose and proof, but i do believe once we got over there we did get that terrorizing bastard sadaam, and many soldiers do get killed every day in battle, fighting for causes that they are told they must by there dumb fuck of a president. Whether its over oil or not, our troops are still over there fighting to liberate those people, and most of them are very greatful for it (the Iraqi people) It's not the whole population thats sittin over there picking off our soldiers everyday, its the crazy fuckin radicals...I believe that the flag, although i'm not fully sure, is being flown at our bases, and our bases only, i'm sure there not goin out in the middle of town central over in Iraq and puttin the biggest brightest US flag they can up on a lighted pole, our prescense over there, our buildings which we occupy, are the same as having a flag, its still US. I believe we have the right to fly our flag high and proud, on our own bases and areas, and that the coffins taken out should proudly have the US flag draped....

Lets keep this on topic eh, its about the military deciding we can not fly the flag
not bashing of the president.

[Celexei]

what is the presidents military position again?.......thats what i thought

[Latrinsorm]

If I was in charge of the military, I'd be a hell of a lot more worried about pissing off more Iraqis. We've done quite enough of that.

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by Celexei
what is the presidents military position again?.......thats what i thought

Ok, good, you found a loophole. Stay on the topic instead of being a smartass. It's about whether or not you agree with the decision to not fly the flags everyday. Take out your anger in another thread.

[AnticorRifling]

We shouldn't have our flag up. This wasn't an invasion and we aren't taking over the country. This is kind of a situational thing though. Fly the flag over the buildings and bases we are using but don't fly it over any of Iraq's buildings. Don't put it in place of the Iraqi flag either. We will still drape it over coffins, but we shouldn't put it over their palaces or places of government.

I can see how flying our flag over their buildings is can cause turmoil. Doing such an act is basically saying we own you. This isn't true but it can be perceived.

Don't blow the issue out of proportion. I love my country and my flag but there are times when it isn't right to fly it. Iraq isn't ours and even though we did liberate it we should still honor their wishes. Just because we helped, or did it all as I would argue, doesn't mean we have the right to flex our will onto it's native people. If they want it down we should respect their wishes.

[Celexei]

Originally posted by Hulkein

Originally posted by Celexei
what is the presidents military position again?.......thats what i thought

Ok, good, you found a loophole. Stay on the topic instead of being a smartass. It's about whether or not you agree with the decision to not fly the flags everyday. Take out your anger in another thread.

Okay there, read my post, if you bothered to open your eyes you'll clearly see that it IS on topic, i was just throwing in the fact within my topic

No the problem Anticore is we can not even fly it over our bases anymore, I agree it should not be flying over Iraqi buildings. But our own bases should be allowed to fly our flag.

Edit to add: The President does not hold a Military Rank He is the Civilian Commander in Chief of our armed forces.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by The Edine]

[Ravenstorm]

It's a good decision and shows respect for the Iraqi people.

And on another note, it would also seem that the Iraqi are not so happy to have us there as the government would like us to believe if they object to our flag being flown in their sight.

Raven

[TheEschaton]

If you read the EMail from the guys CO below it (and what the fuck? Is it legal to just send off commands from the Army on a whim to whomever), it says all OUTSIDE flags have to be taken down. They can be used within the base, whatever, but not showing outwards into the "real world" IE, Iraq.

Ideologically, from the President's point of view, he has constantly hammered the idea that this is not an invasion, this is a "giving" of Iraq, back to its people. To have the flag flying says, "Hey, yeah, have your Iraqi ruling council, your Iraqi constitution...but hey man, we're watching you, to make sure you don't fuck up." It's a big no-no. It's like that woman who made a big deal of wearing a burka when she was stationed in Saudi Arabia. Uh, hello, it's not your country, and you shouldn't be stepping on the toes of the people you're already an unwelcome presence to. I think it's part of America's bullying persona, that people like this soldier, want the flag waved everywhere in Iraq, to send the message, "Hey man, we came to give you your freedom because YOU'RE NOT FUCKING GOOD ENOUGH to get it yourself. And don't you forget this shit, son."

Penultimately, that soldier is an idiot. It's no wonder violence is escalating in the region, if he's acting like that. I imagine he's under a great deal of stress, I just hope he doesn't say that on the corners of Fallujah. "Hey man, these fucking Iraqis, they're offended by our flag, pure and pristine symbol that it is, it must mean they're anti-American, freedom hating, baby killing, communist terrorists."

And, lastly - what's the big fucking deal about the flag? It's just a symbol. Hey, here's something horrid: I have a flag that's touched the ground before. Oh geez, maybe I should be put on trial for that. IT'S JUST A FLAG. GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELVES.

Talk about bowing down to idols.

-TheE-

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by The Edine
my biggest issue is the morale, as well as we should be allowed to have the flag wherever our forces are.
And not being overthere TOK, it is hard to put yourself in the position of the troops that are on the ground getting shot at every day.

My brother happens to be over there and is among those that get shot at daily. Knowing my brother and knowing a few of those in his company, they are applauding the command. The last thing they want is to have some dumb ass deploy a flag while they have set up camp. Flying the flag in Iraq is basically saying, "Shoot at me ... please."

The issue of morale? Please. You are not over there yourself and only have one e-mail to base what the morale is. The reports I get are that morale wasn't that great to begin with. Morale is probably not going to improve and if you need a flag for morale you're just a sad individual. How about the life of that guy that is at your back?


Originally posted by ElanthianSirenThey never found proof for us to have EVEN been there, though that was all sloughed off as an "intelligence mishap."

Strange that Bush didn't divulge the source of this intelligence when he put it in the hands of legislature.

Iraqi exiles. Nice huh.


Originally posted by The Edine
Well there is one problem with that comment, the Iraqi Military has been taking daily shots at our planes that patrol the No Fly Zone since the end of the Iraq war I

There is one problem with your statement. The no fly zone was US imposed. I Wonder how we would react to a Canadian enforced no fly zone over Michigan.

You don't suppose an additional reason for shooting at US planes in a US enforced "no fly" zone would happen to be that US bombers still carpeting parts of Iraq after Desert Strom and up until "shock and awe"?


Originally posted by Hulkein
Ok, good, you found a loophole. Stay on the topic instead of being a smartass. It's about whether or not you agree with the decision to not fly the flags everyday. Take out your anger in another thread.

She was very much on topic. Had she not been a MODERATOR or ADMIN would have stepped in.

Until I see you signed in with one of those titles, don't assume you can dictate what is and is not "on topic".

If you feel you absolutely must, apply first.

[DeV]

It's their country, not ours. Easy resolution.
I agree with whoever said the morale was not the best to begin with. They are over there to do a job, and I've always supported the soldiers 100%. Its the decision to send them their that Im against.

The last thing they want is to have some dumb ass deploy a flag while they have set up camp. Flying the flag in Iraq is basically saying, "Shoot at me ... please."
it is not a matter of camp, it is a matter of a base, IE, the green zone etc. they are not able to fly the colors over their base.


There is one problem with your statement. The no fly zone was US imposed
Get your facts strait please. UN imposed US enforced, and part of the cease fire agreement. Canada did not win a war against us.

Flying the flag is a symbol of pride, Tsa'ah and some people, perhaps not your brother, feel pride when they see the flag flying.


And, lastly - what's the big fucking deal about the flag? It's just a symbol. Hey, here's something horrid: I have a flag that's touched the ground before. Oh geez, maybe I should be put on trial for that. IT'S JUST A FLAG. GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELVES.
Its a matter of tradition and respect. That is something your parents should have instilled in you at a young age.

[TheEschaton]

Nah, my parents taught me to be intelligent, and think for my own fucking self.

-TheE-
"If you wish to find the truth - then you must first disregard everything, as untrue - and question everything."
Rene Descartes

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
Its a matter of tradition and respect. Think ahead, Edine. We fly our flag, we're going to piss off Iraqis. There are people in Iraq, just like everywhere else, who when pushed to the limit will do desperate things. If the choice is fly the flag or don't get blown up as much, then there's no choice at all.

What do you think would happen if Germany started flying the swastika again? Or if they threw the Harp up in Ireland? Or if you flew the Dragon flag in China?

[Hulkein]

<<Get your facts strait please. UN imposed US enforced, and part of the cease fire agreement. Canada did not win a war against us. >>

Much of what Tsa says is misinformed Edine, don't pay much attention to him. Acting as if Iraq has reason to shoot at a UN imposed no-fly zone, LOL. What a clown.

<<She was very much on topic. Had she not been a MODERATOR or ADMIN would have stepped in.

Until I see you signed in with one of those titles, don't assume you can dictate what is and is not "on topic".>>

No, she wasn't.. She was trying to turn this into another thread revolving around George Bush, when this has nothing to do with him. Because myself and others told her she was being off-topic, she created a new thread for what she was speaking of, so I guess she saw our point eh? You can tell a staff member has low self-esteem when he's picking on members for reminding people to stay on topic. Have a good day chief.

[Edited on 4-5-2004 by Hulkein]

[longshot]

Originally posted by The Edine

Flying the flag is a symbol of pride,



A symbol of pride for whom? For the US troops.

Think for a minute about why that is.

Why is a flag a symbol of pride?

Then it should be pretty obvious why it would upsetting to the people whose country we are currently occupying.

"Tradition" is an incredibly weak argument.

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by The Edine
it is not a matter of camp, it is a matter of a base, IE, the green zone etc. they are not able to fly the colors over their base.

And still your point is? Morale? Injustice? I'm sorry, Ol'Glory should not be flown on invaded soil with the assumption US troops are only there for liberation.


Originally posted by The Edine
Get your facts strait please. UN imposed US enforced, and part of the cease fire agreement. Canada did not win a war against us.

Oh my god. Tell me you did not pull your head out of that huge ass of yours for that "fact".

It gets better, the peanut gallery chimes in.


Originally posted by Hulkein

Much of what Tsa says is misinformed Edine, don't pay much attention to him. Acting as if Iraq has reason to shoot at a UN imposed no-fly zone, LOL. What a clown.

OMFG!!! Since neither of you are worth the WTF cat, I'll just ask you how it feels being served constantly.


The two no-fly zones over Iraq were imposed by the US, Britain and France after the Gulf War, in what was described as a humanitarian effort to protect Shi'a Muslims in the south and Kurds in the north.

The justification was that an acute humanitarian crisis made it necessary to infringe the sovereignty of Iraq in this way.

However, unlike the military campaign to expel Iraqi forces from Kuwait, the no-fly zones were not authorised by the UN and they are not specifically sanctioned by any Security Council resolution.

BBC diplomatic correspondent Barnaby Mason says the Western powers - led by President George Bush senior - argued that their action was consistent with Security Council Resolution 688 adopted on 5 April 1991.

The above can be found at http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1175950.stm

The article below can be found at
http://www.globalpolicy.org/security/issues/iraq/flyindex.htm


In April 1991, claiming a false authority under Security Council Resolution 688, the US, UK and France began to patrol the skies over northern Iraq, excluding Iraqi aircraft from this zone. The same powers started to enforce a second “no fly” zone in southern Iraq a few months later. Announced as a means to protect Iraqi Kurds (in the north) and Iraq’s Shi’a population (in the south), the no-fly has offered dubious humanitarian protection, while engaging Iraq’s government in ceaseless military pressure. France eventually withdrew from the no-fly process. The US-UK turned no-fly into an even more aggressive operation after 1998, when “more robust rules of engagement” have led to regular bombing of ground targets and substantial civilian casualties.

Hell, do everyone a favor before you enroll in reading comprehension courses, google the words Iraq, no, fly, and zone.

Please read the fuck up before you post bullshit.

Fucking idiots supporting idiots.


Originally posted by The Edine
Flying the flag is a symbol of pride, Tsa'ah and some people, perhaps not your brother, feel pride when they see the flag flying.

I'm sure my brother does indeed feel pride in the flag. Perhaps it's his genetics, perhaps it's his rearing, take your pick. He not a moron however and knows a good standing order when he hears it. He would be of the first to raise hell if that order were given stateside. I fail to see your point. First it was moral, now it's pride. How about depending on your fellow soldier for moral and take pride in doing the job you were assigned and quit looking to symbols for it.


Originally posted by HulkeinNo, she wasn't.. She was trying to turn this into another thread revolving around George Bush, when this has nothing to do with him. Because myself and others told her she was being off-topic, she created a new thread for what she was speaking of, so I guess she saw our point eh? You can tell a staff member has low self-esteem when he's picking on members for reminding people to stay on topic. Have a good day chief.

If I were your chief I'd send you out to be ass raped by a den of undersexed bears. Be glad I am not your chief ... chump.

Rephrase your statement to read you and Edine told her to keep it on topic. She was on topic whether you agree or not. Again I will say you do not decide what is and is not on topic.

You and your fellow co-founder of the "Granite dense .... HA!" club need to return to the peanut gallery and read up and check your facts before you post.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Tsa`ah]

[DeV]

Originally posted by Tsa`ah

Please read the fuck up before you post bullshit.

Fucking idiots supporting idiots.

[Edited on 4-6-2004 by Tsa`ah]

Seems to be the standard lately.

The two no-fly zones over Iraq were imposed by the US, Britain and France.

my mistake imposed by the three major players in iraq war 1, and enforced by the united states. (not imposed by the UN and enforced by the US.)
The only part i was wrong about was the UN portion.
To me Pride=moral.
And To steal a quote from Edaarin somewhat.
Why are you exploting your brothers being over there to make your arguments.
Is he here, do you speak for him?
let him speak for himself perhaps.
(but of course since Edaarin and you agree on the topic he wont come here and say something like that.)

[Sean]

I think by mentioning correspondance he is speaking for his brother. Inaddition that can be twisted many ways. You aren't over there either and your speaking for the troops based on an email correspondance as well.

[Anebriated]

I have only two thoughts on this that havent already been mentioned.

1. Are the going to a Communist government or what? They are allowed to fly their flag here, I dont see why we cant there.

2. Dont the US troops have a flag patch on their shoulder? Are they still allowed to wear that?

[Hulkein]

<<Again I will say you do not decide what is and is not on topic.>>

Aww, feeling threatened a little bit? Calm down big shot, I'll say whatever I want when I and the CREATOR of the thread find something off-topic.

<<You and your fellow co-founder of the "Granite dense .... HA!" club need to return to the peanut gallery and read up and check your facts before you post. >>

Check up on facts? How about IQ tests only being accurate for one year? Yeah, check your own facts chief, you made yourself look extremely smart by ripping me only to be given a nice fist of reality when someone confirmed what I said was correct, and all your attempted belittling was nothing but the standard bullshit seeping from your teeth.

It wasn't UN, just the main components of the UN. Not to mention it was just a stupid fucking comment to begin with. "they are allowed to shoot at a fly space, how would we feel if canada put a no fly zone on us.. durrrr they didn't lose a war they started or anything did they?!?!!?" Yeah, good point clown.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Hulkein]

hmm was it not Tsa'ah who said if there was anything off topic he would delete the posts a while back... the off topic nazi needs to suck it up.

Might be wrong on that but if i remember it was him who said it all...

Originally posted by Elrodin
1. Are the going to a Communist government or what? They are allowed to fly their flag here, I dont see why we cant there.
I hope not


2. Dont the US troops have a flag patch on their shoulder? Are they still allowed to wear that?

For now i would assume yes, but give it a few weeks and we will have to put an "international" patch in its place.

[Anebriated]

For now i would assume yes, but give it a few weeks and we will have to put an "international" patch in its place.

Ok this REALLY bothers me. I am one of those who thinks that we went to Iraq to take the peoples mind off of Osama. I even have a friend who is home with a purple heart. If people are going to risk their lives to go over and fight then let them wear their own flag. I dont even know if what i wrote was literate because the fact that they are doing this has me pissed off. Im going to go get a beer or something to calm me down.

I would like to say Im sorry to everyone who was, is, or is planning on entering the service because i feel that this recent action demeans them in a way.

[Ravenstorm]

That's not happening. Edine is just talking out his ass.

Raven

no no im not saying that it is happening, I am saying that would be the next step, to make it more of an "international" feel to it

[Tsa`ah]

Originally posted by The Edine
Why are you exploting your brothers being over there to make your arguments.
Is he here, do you speak for him?
let him speak for himself perhaps.
(but of course since Edaarin and you agree on the topic he wont come here and say something like that.)

Don't drag Edaarin into this. He and I don't make it a habit of following each other around and posting in support of each other.

The biggest difference between me posting about my brother and you posting some random e-mail pulled from the internet or spammed in your in-box is that I know the person I am speaking about. I speak to him via e-mail or phone whenever the opportunity arises. I can vouch for his views and opinions and I trust what he reports. Where as you can't.


Originally posted by Hulkein
Aww, feeling threatened a little bit? Calm down big shot, I'll say whatever I want when I and the CREATOR of the thread find something off-topic.

Feel threatened by you? Please. You can barely discern what a topic is let alone comprehend the content.


Originally posted by Hulkein
Check up on facts? How about IQ tests only being accurate for one year? Yeah, check your own facts chief, you made yourself look extremely smart by ripping me only to be given a nice fist of reality when someone confirmed what I said was correct, and all your attempted belittling was nothing but the standard bullshit seeping from your teeth.

Really now. Because I didn't respond to Tamral by pointing out how subjective such tests are in addition to the lack of standardization and continue to point out specific instances where adults have significantly improved upon past scores.

It would have been a stalemate argument back and forth. He accepts one school of thought, I accept another. Your point?


Originally posted by Hulkein
It wasn't UN, just the main components of the UN. Not to mention it was just a stupid fucking comment to begin with. "they are allowed to shoot at a fly space, how would we feel if canada put a no fly zone on us.. durrrr they didn't lose a war they started or anything did they?!?!!?" Yeah, good point clown.

Main components? Again you are displaying your ability to talk out of your ass. If you would pull your head out of that orifice you find yourself spewing less crap.

I'm not the one that jumped on the "UN sanctioned this" bandwagon. I'm not the one that has to pull some asinine assertion or back pedal.

The reference to a Canadian enforced no fly zone over US territory is an example of imposing on sovereign soil. We would shoot at Canadian fighters in said no fly zone even if they weren't bombing us.

What the fuck were they to do? Say, "Oh, thy are coming to bomb us again out of the no fly zone, we shouldn't shoot."

You can't use the example of a nation defending themselves as an argument for our actions. Even though Sadam was a fuck, you could not expect him to lay down and not defend himself. Sorry if you're too dense to realize this.

Originally posted by The Edine
hmm was it not Tsa'ah who said if there was anything off topic he would delete the posts a while back... the off topic nazi needs to suck it up.

Might be wrong on that but if i remember it was him who said it all...

I think you avoided comenting on that.


And Edaarin was brought up to show the hypocrisy in his comments directed at me. When you are exploiting your brothers being in the army to make your arguments

[Hulkein]

<<Really now. Because I didn't respond to Tamral by pointing out how subjective such tests are in addition to the lack of standardization and continue to point out specific instances where adults have significantly improved upon past scores.

It would have been a stalemate argument back and forth. He accepts one school of thought, I accept another. Your point? >>

My point is YOU WERE WRONG. You accept one point? Well guess what pee-wee, it's a wrong point. Who's the one that needs to pull their head out of their ass?

<<Feel threatened by you? Please. You can barely discern what a topic is let alone comprehend the content.>>

The topic is how do you feel the troops being told when and when not to display the American flag in Iraq. Someone then took this as an opportunity to bash Bush because of all the other faults that person sees. This thread is not about that. You think you were endowed with some secret knowledge when you were accepted as moderator? Guess what ya twit.. you weren't. This thread was going off-topic, SHE REALIZED OUR POINT, AND MADE AN ENTIRELY NEW THREAD. Once again you're left behind with your thumb up your ass, attempting to insult others to give yourself some semblence of accomplishment. Good work king mod!

<<You can't use the example of a nation defending themselves as an argument for our actions. Even though Sadam was a fuck, you could not expect him to lay down and not defend himself. Sorry if you're too dense to realize this.>>

Are you serious about this? Jesus Christ... I guess you're right, he started a war, lost, SURRENDERED, and was forced to have no fly zones. That means in a year or two he can justifiably 'defend' himself of these international sanctions? Well, justifiably through your fucked up eyes. Listen clown, do me a favor and check the size 35 crimsons you're wearing at the door on the way out.

[Edited on 4-7-2004 by Hulkein]

[CrystalTears]

Okay can we please leave out the back and forth of who is deemed worthy to tell others to get back on topic and just continue with the issue at hand please? Thank you.

[Tsa`ah]

The two of you are far too dense to understand a great many of things. I hope this is solely due to your youth and inexperience, but I've got the feeling that this shared ignorance will probably be projected far into adulthood. Sad really.

Unless more information is provided in this thread, relevant to the topic, I don't see the need in taking either of you to school anymore.

Take this as your hollow moral victory or hit the bricks, I care not. Expending any more energy on you two straw grabbers in this thread is pointless.

Originally posted by Tsa`ah
The two of you are far too dense to understand a great many of things. I hope this is solely due to your youth and inexperience, but I've got the feeling that this shared ignorance will probably be projected far into adulthood. Sad really.

Unless more information is provided in this thread, relevant to the topic, I don't see the need in taking either of you to school anymore.

Take this as your hollow moral victory or hit the bricks, I care not. Expending any more energy on you two straw grabbers in this thread is pointless.

Wow because I disagree on issues with you it makes me ignorant. Because I call you out on your own stupid comments It makes me ignorant. Because you feel it needed to come into every thread and find a way to insult me as a person no matter the topic it makes me ignorant.
Well, I have three special words for you.
GO FUCK YOURSELF.


[Edited on 4-8-2004 by The Edine]

[Xcalibur]

He did it with me too, Dave. And he even brought the fact that my english is bad!

Don't enter the game of those frustrated about life in general.

Do, smile, that they are what they are, and that is the worst thing you could wish them to be!

Dave rocks and is part of the winning team!

[longshot]

Originally posted by The Edine


Wow because I disagree on issues with you it makes me ignorant. Because I call you out on your own stupid comments It makes me ignorant. Because you feel it needed to come into every thread and find a way to insult me as a person no matter the topic it makes me ignorant.
Well, I have three special words for you.
GO FUCK YOURSELF.


[Edited on 4-8-2004 by The Edine]

You can't handle the truth!

\A Few Good Men

Seriously Edine, you've done far more than anyone to prove your ignorance across a wide spectrum of threads.

Big red letters? Gimme a fucking break!

This is yet another thread where you got your ass handed to you.

Anticor has served, and agrees that we shouldn't have our flag flying over there. There is not a single person here who agrees with you, your flawed logic, or your poorly written sentences.


Originally posted by The Edine

To me Pride=moral.



Pride is one of the seven deadly sins, you fucking moron.

Just because the words sound patriotic to you does not mean that you possess the cognitive ability to use them correctly.

[Edited on 4-8-2004 by longshot]

No, an over abundance of pride is a sin. If being proud of something is a sin I feel bad for every parent of a child.

Because my Views differ from others makes me wrong and ignorant?

Growing up I was thought to respect the flag and fly it proudly always. My father having been drafted for Vietnam (and re-uping after his tour was over). and my grandfather having fought in WW2 and Korea my family has instilled a deep respect in me for this country, and the good things it has done.

I have always had an American flag outside of my front door. It is always well lit at night, and I even take it down during bad weather. It is a sign of my love for my country and my thanks for all of those that have died and are still dying for us.
To quote somebody...
"Freedom is not free. It is built on the blood of our soldiers."

Because "I" personally feel that the flag should be flown over any large Military instillation it makes me wrong? Explain your logic. They already know it is an American base. Anyone who is going to get pissed off at the flag flying over there already is against our being there. It is better to have them out in the open so we know who they are than having us ignorant to their views and plans.

[CrystalTears]

You don't need a flag to be patriotic. You either love your country or you don't.

I never said you needed to. I DID say that is what "I" do.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
I have always had an American flag outside of my front door.Unless your front door is in Iraq, that whole post is completely irrelevant.

[TheEschaton]

I have always had an American flag outside of my front door. It is always well lit at night, and I even take it down during bad weather.

I have one outside my door.

But it's upside down and constantly burning.


-TheE-
You sound like the fucks who wanted to make an AMENDMENT against burning the flag.

[Warriorbird]

It's state law a lot of places.

That aside... sure, I could see you justifying that nonsense if you buy into the Wolfowitz/conservative Jewish notion of America taking over the entire Middle East.

Otherwise... are we invading or are we liberating?

Ante up. You might even end up over there.

[Atlanteax]

I'm just going to simply state that I'm disappointed in any American who voluntary burns the flag.

Any arguments that it is "free speech" (via 1st Admendment) is pure crock.

Some people are pushing the whole "free speech" loophole (as I see it) too far.. I wonder if one day (bit of sarcasm here) someone will be burned alive at the stake and then it will be claimed that it was an act of "free speech" to "make a point". :rolleyes:

.

As for Iraq, Flags should probably only displayed in the Green Zone, which is the current main US military outpost in Iraq (Flags are flown in US bases elsewhere too, so Iraq should be no exception in that regard).

Elsewhere, it would be a wise option to decline doing so, as it would only offer an attractive target for hostile snipers/mortars.

Within the US, I think flag-burning should be against the law. There are proper ways of disposing of a flag (ie, giving it to the local police/firemen) and one should not own a flag if they are not capable of caring for it (ie keeping it from getting soiled).

[TheEschaton]

Note: I've never actually burned a flag, nor displayed one upside down. I was a Boy Scout, I would never do that.


That being said, the flag is just a piece of cloth. I'll respect it when the country it represents is worthy of respect, I'll worship it never.

-TheE-

[Pierat]

Im pretty sure ive seen the puerto rican flag somewhere here in nyc, I didnt know we were being occupied! Ack! For that matter ive seen the Irish flag here and even a Italian! Send reinforcements quickly to New York City! Invasion! Invasion!

[Galleazzo]

It IS free speech to burn a flag. It's just a symbol. We're not supposed to worship it like a god. I don't want any frigging laws protecting pieces of cloth.

Still won't prevent me from exercising my right to beat the shit out of anyone I see doing it.

:D

Originally posted by Warriorbird
Ante up. You might even end up over there.

One of the reasons I joined was to do what needs to be done, if that requires me spending time in Iraq then I accept that, and "Hope" I will be allowed to have a flag flying over the base I am stationed.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Atlanteax
Within the US, I think flag-burning should be against the law. There are proper ways of disposing of a flag (ie, giving it to the local police/firemen) and one should not own a flag if they are not capable of caring for it (ie keeping it from getting soiled). How exactly do you think flags are disposed of?

[Pierat]

Excuse me! Excume me! Valid point from Pierat! See the above, theres flags from all countrys all over the place! On a boat you fly the flag of the countrys origin, on a embasy the same thing. Anywhere in the world. Only pirates and deviants fly false colors or hide behind.... wait, nevermind.... disregard all!

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Pierat
Excuse me! Excume me! Valid point from Pierat!:engages bluster mode:
wait, nevermind.... disregard all! Aw poo.

[Ravenstorm]

Valid point? Hardly. If Puerto Rico had invaded the United States, killed thousand of its citizens and then planted a flag? Yes, you can be sure there'd be a problem.

Raven

[Pierat]

Youve never seen another flag in a seperate country? Ive seen a german flag in madrid.... hell ive seen tons of other countrys flags in other countrys.... point... remade

[Warriorbird]

Were their soldiers there in large numbers?

:chuckle:

Well Warriorbird..
The US has
15 large overseas installations
19 medium overseas installations
668 small overseas installations in 130 countries.
somewhere over 200,000 soldiers overseas "not" in iraq
so I would say yes to your question.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by The Edine
Well Warriorbird..
The US has
15 large overseas installations
19 medium overseas installations
668 small overseas installations in 130 countries.
somewhere over 200,000 soldiers overseas "not" in iraq
so I would say yes to your question. The US != Germany.

Although, as a coincidence, don't we currently have an army in Germany?

germany, South Korea, japan, Saudi Arabia
just to name a few

misread his post, but all of thoes bases have american flags flying over them and soldiers in large numbers

not german

[Edited on 4-9-2004 by The Edine]

[CrystalTears]

There's a difference between putting up a flag to honor your own country because you live in another one, and invading a country and putting up a flag to display the accomplishment.

Invading a country that is not sovereign is not an invasion.
Saddam was not the rightful ruler
We liberated that country.

[TheEschaton]

You're an idiot.

Tell the people of Iraq that they weren't a sovereign nation. Are you saying N. Korea, Iran, Syria, these countries are not sovereign because you disagree with their leaders?


Again, I reiterate: You're an idiot.

TheE, In my eyes when a country is not ruled by an elected leader, but by a leader who gained his power by murdering all off his opposition in one day, by a leader who basically says vote for me or I will kill you and your family, then it is not a self governing entity. It is a country ruled by an outside force and in Iraq's case the outside force is the wrongfully imposed power of Saddam

[Edited on 4-9-2004 by The Edine]

[TheEschaton]

TheE, In my eyes when a country is not ruled by an elected leader, but by a leader who gained his power by murdering all off his opposition in one day, by a leader who basically says vote for me or I will kill you and your family, then it is not a self governing entity. It is a country ruled by an outside force and in Iraq's case the outside force is the wrongfully imposed power of Saddam

You know who put his political party in power, allowed him to rise to the head of it, and allowed him to gain a stranglehold on Iraqi politics? You guessed it: we did. Did you think he won "100% of the vote" for the first time last year? Nah, he's been winning elections by 100% of the vote since the early 80s, and we allowed it.

Oh, and during that time - we acknowledged him as a sovereign nation. We even sent ambassadors to Iraq. Hopefully you know that basic diplomacy states you only send ambassadors to recognized countries.

Stop being a dipshit. I don't want to believe you're actually this fucking stupid.

-TheE-

You resort to insults as you seem to continue to do, try to grow up a little.
Try not to fall into the Tsa'ha syndrome and have nothing to say but insults TheE
I dot agree with everything the government does, and im sure you don't as well.

TheE tell me how long has it been since we had an ambassador to Iraq?
(rhetorical question)
I know about the history of elections over there, but would we have gone to war over that, no, I don't think you would have expected us to as well.

The cold war caused us to do things that were in our best interest as does the war on terrorism, some things had bad effects in the long term, others like our liberating Iraq will have a good effect in the long term.


[Edited on 4-9-2004 by The Edine]

[TheEschaton]

We last had an ambassador there in 1990.


The cold war caused us to do things that were in our best interest as does the war on terrorism, some things had bad effects in the long term, others like our liberating Iraq will have a good effect in the long term.

And the Cold War is the biggest bullshit excuse there is. The state-sponsored atrocities committed in the name of the "Cold War" makes me sick.


-TheE-

[Hulkein]

Originally posted by TheEschaton
You know who put his political party in power, allowed him to rise to the head of it, and allowed him to gain a stranglehold on Iraqi politics? You guessed it: we did. Did you think he won "100% of the vote" for the first time last year? Nah, he's been winning elections by 100% of the vote since the early 80s, and we allowed it.

Oh, and during that time - we acknowledged him as a sovereign nation. We even sent ambassadors to Iraq. Hopefully you know that basic diplomacy states you only send ambassadors to recognized countries.

Stop being a dipshit. I don't want to believe you're actually this fucking stupid.

-TheE-

Well then it's good to see Bush is making up for mistakes in the past. Even more reason for me to vote for him.

Bush '04.

[Latrinsorm]

Originally posted by Hulkein
Well then it's good to see Bush is making up for mistakes in the past. Unfortunately, two wrongs do not make a right.